Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Completed GBs => Group and Themed Builds => Beyond '46 GB => : buzzbomb May 05, 2013, 10:34:06 AM

: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: buzzbomb May 05, 2013, 10:34:06 AM
In early 1943 the use of the gas turbine was being investigated for use in AFV's. By 1944 the German Engineers had successfully put a Gas Turbine Engine into a Panther, the later GT102 was lighter and smaller than the traditional Maybach Engine. Along with the new engine, a revised transmission was built to give low torque as the Gas Turbine is not really that effecient at the low end. In the Real World these developments did not proceed due to deteriorating War position by 1945.

However here... we can go for it ;)
(Commence blatant stealing from Red Gambit by Colin Gee  ;D)
In mid 1945 when the Soviets attacked through Germany at a war weary Allied the initial shock to the allies was profound. As the conflict progressed German Troop, ex POW's were released to form as a Republican Army of Germany. Plus the war industries were ramped back up.
One of the means of countering the Soviet superiority in Armour was to get the latest vehicles out against them. The plans for the Gas Turbine Panthers were dusted of and a small batch was produced to both evaluate the design in Combat Conditions, plus aid in further development of the Technology.

So for the Build I plucked a Dragon Panther F from the Stash.. pretty ordinary kit.. but perfect for this build 8)
Stage one of the Gas Turbine Panther basic contruction
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther1.jpg)

Let the hackage commence.
New rear deck and Jet outlet, venting upward in an armoured outlet.
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther2.jpg)

More to follow...
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: ysi_maniac May 05, 2013, 11:00:35 AM
 :) :) :) :) :)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: GTX_Admin May 05, 2013, 02:02:26 PM
Is this a scratch build conversion or a kit?
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: taiidantomcat May 05, 2013, 02:41:35 PM
That is a great start! Hope the removed engine deck came off cleanly, Always a helpful piece for future ideas  :)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: Old Wombat May 05, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
I'm watching! :D

Cheers!

Guy
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb May 05, 2013, 04:37:29 PM
Is this a scratch build conversion or a kit?

Scratchbuild.. just plastic card and tube so far with a little bit of mesh. Not a real lot of information out there.. so basically making it up as I go along.. which here.. is quite, quite legal  ;)

: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: GTX_Admin May 06, 2013, 02:28:31 AM
This book:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps82ebff60.jpg)

has some details, though not a real lot.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: Dr. YoKai May 06, 2013, 03:37:16 AM
 Nifty concept - I may have to borrow a page from your book for the FlakPanzer Smilidon...
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: raafif May 06, 2013, 02:03:28 PM
Is that air-inlet grill big enough to feed a turbine ?  How about some supplementary side-scoops ?

          Surely the exhaust pipe should face the rear ala Batmobile ! ;)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb May 07, 2013, 07:04:45 AM
Is that air-inlet grill big enough to feed a turbine ?  How about some supplementary side-scoops ?

          Surely the exhaust pipe should face the rear ala Batmobile ! ;)

Who knows..  ;D

I figure it this way and looking at it practically from my perspective. The intake actually has a larger area than a Jumo intake.. the front of the ME-262 engine is not that big.
Side intakes would compromise the armour protection.. and we are protecting a fairly fragile piece of kit by that armour.. my latest thought is to have some add-on armour for just that purpose around the engine. Likewise a rear port, even in the reports that are available online, was identified as a compromise to the armour protection, particularly from shell splinters. So I decided to compromise on that and at least angle up and armour it up a bit, like the Germans did with tiger and panther traditional exhausts.

Will be a delay in proceedings on this for a few weeks.. off on an OS Trip
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: father ennis May 07, 2013, 12:05:02 PM
I'd suggested you do something along the lines of the Porsche Tiger's intakes or your Panther.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: Feldmarschall Zod May 08, 2013, 08:35:47 AM
This will be a sweet looking build.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb June 21, 2013, 08:41:57 PM
Right.. back in the game. Got a bit done this evening.
Soooo back to the story.
The impact of hollow charge weapons was by '46 well known.
The Russians during the '46 attack on the west had plenty of captured German Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks.
So the German engineers uparmoured the Turbine Panther with Spaced armour on the hull sides and turret, plus "bazooka" plates over the suspension. They also added an extra slab of frontal armour as the T-44 with it's 100mm gun was beginning to appear plus the JS-2 and JS-3 tanks were an increasing threat.

(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther3.jpg)

(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther4.jpg)
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther5.jpg)

Still playing with the turret armour templates at the moment using old business cards.
The hull armour will have integrated doors that drop down to get at the tools (thas the open business ;))
Plus not sure if I like the Bazooka plates.. they sort of defeat some of the Panthers coolness, but practically they would probably be fitted.

More to come, like IR gear and working out some sort of close in weapon now I have removed the hull MG. ;)


: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: father ennis June 22, 2013, 08:19:33 AM
 I think you need to add the front mg back. The Germans learned their lesson with the Elephant. I'd add a remote controled mg to the turret if possible plus the close-in defense weapon that used the curved barrel MP44. Always one of my favorites !!!!   Great job so far on this. I sort of agree with you on the side skirts but you don't have the road wheels on yet which would change the way it looks. Also, they might be a bit too long but without the wheels, I can't be sure.   I like the way your talking this a lot.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: Cliffy B June 22, 2013, 08:29:15 AM
Speaking of MGs, what about a co-ax mount with the main gun?  Not sure if the Germans were big on that though?  I agree with Ennis, she needs a hull MG and at least one on the turret; exposed or enclosed both with their respective drawbacks.  The curved barrel MP-44, albeit neat, was just plain lazy IMO.  How hard was it to add a ring mount MG on top?  If you're dealing with infantry swarming your tank then plenty of things have already gone horribly wrong.  What about some firing slits in the sides for the crew?  I think a hull, co-ax, and a ring mount MG on top would be the best choice.  Plenty of tanks have that setup for a reason.  That's just my logical side talking though and since this is a whiff do whatever you want  ;)

I really like the idea of a gas turbine German tank.  Their tanks were always superbly engineered (for the most part) and it suits them very well.  I like the added armor but will echo what Ennis said about the skirts.  Add the road wheels and see if they need some trimming.

So....thought about the paint job yet?
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb June 24, 2013, 01:16:11 PM
Hmmm.. did some research on the "real" Panther F concept and the King Tiger mantlet layout did not really have a Co-ax mg.. so there is thought one gone.
Given that nearly all the late war tanks, Centurion, JS Series, Pershing being an exeption, did not have a hull MG that was where I was headed with the solid glacis look.  Hull MG points were always an armour weak spot and nearly always a shot trap.

 Albeit I do plan to add a bank of S-mine launchers between the spaced armour and the hull sides. did kick around the idea of a small turret over the radio operators position but that line of design thinking was basically abandoned by 1941.

Now after looking  around, considering and seeing the august advice on this site.. looks like the Hull MG will go back, either that or a ball type mount in the turret face.. but really there is not much room in that tiny turret. The cupola External MG is going to happen anyway.

So look out for an update with the MG mount back in situ.. but probably with the add on armour over/around it. OK not good engineering but given I am looking at late war/Early New war period compromise with workshop expediant armour, it is better than nothing.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb June 29, 2013, 02:28:16 PM
Some more done.. in the final stretch so to speak.

So here is where the Panther is at
Side view.. I have decided the skirts look ok with the running gear on .... so they are staying
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther7.jpg)
Engine Deck with a heap of Grandt Line bolts and stuff
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther8.jpg)
Rear with the gear
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther9.jpg)
The front with added back hull MG with the addon armour cut around it.
You can just make out the S-Mine launchers on the front corners
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther10.jpg)

So the last bits to do is the IR gear.. which is coming, Commanders MG and of course painting
So on target for the extended deadline.. I hope :(


: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: father ennis June 29, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
Just a thought ,but the hole on the right side of the turrets face is the location of the turret MG. And the "real"  G had the bent barreled MP 44 in place of the older close in defense weapon. Granted,it isn't very impressive but it is always ask about. I did one like that on one I built and it was always ask about. FYI, all it is is a disc with a curved piece and a square periscope .  You are quite correct on the side skirts. They look good !!!!!  In fact you are doing a great job here my friend.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: GTX_Admin June 30, 2013, 03:35:17 AM
The weapon you are referring to was the "Vorsatz-P" - a device that allowed an MP44 assault rifle to be fired from within the tank through a 90-degree curved barrel. The field of fire would have covered most of the surrounding area within a 200m radius.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/fe9bc9a4-1f7d-4e31-a591-13000cddfd87_zpsdb22c9e5.jpg)(http://moole.ru/uploads/posts/2009-09/thumbs/1251876685_ee9b3a0fa681.jpg)

In operation it was supposed to be used something like this:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f287/hanskapal99/krummlauf-fig2.jpg)

If you look closely, you can see it fitted to this destroyed PzIV/70(A):

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/alkett1_zpsaef77c39.jpg)(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/alkett2_zps42ff55fd.jpg)

I hope this helps.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: father ennis June 30, 2013, 07:57:51 AM
You hit the nail on the head,Greg.  That is just what I had in mind.  Can you imagine shotting that thing !!!!!!!   I'm not sure which would be worse, shotting it or being shot at by one ...
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: GTX_Admin June 30, 2013, 09:53:50 AM
I must admit that I find the vehicle mounted S-mines to be a vicious fearsome close in weapon.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: father ennis July 01, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
I agree with you Greg. However, I like the previous close in defense weapon ( I can't even try to spell ity ! ).  The rotating bomb thrower took a long time to run out of ammo and was directional,too ...   I was thinking that the S-mines were smoke ? 
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: GTX_Admin July 03, 2013, 05:48:32 AM
I was doing a little more reading on the Panther's Close In Defence options.  They had what was called the "Nahverteidigungswaffe" which was used as a close defense weapon to combat close assaulting infantry. It was a 92mm rotating launcher for smoke candles, mounted in the roof of the turret or superstructure, which also allowed the occupants to fire a flare pistol through it. The flare pistol could fire flares, smoke rounds or small calibre fragmentation grenades.  This (or a variation of it) was used on numerous German tanks.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Nahverteidigungswaffe.jpg/400px-Nahverteidigungswaffe.jpg)(http://www.custermen.net/nahvert/nahverteidigung1.jpg)

It's operation in an Anti-personnel role was much as below:

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6220/test2bv.jpg)
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3343/tigeriy.jpg)

It was mounted to the side of the Commander's Cupola where the plate with the 4 bolts is in the pic below:

(http://www.reocities.com/desertfox1891/NahVtdgW/lowres/Panther-NVtdgW.jpg)

If you wanted to fit the Vorsatz-P instead, this would probably be the place to do it.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: Claymore July 03, 2013, 07:30:04 AM
Some more done.. in the final stretch so to speak.

So here is where the Panther is at
Side view.. I have decided the skirts look ok with the running gear on .... so they are staying.

So the last bits to do is the IR gear.. which is coming, Commanders MG and of course painting
So on target for the extended deadline.. I hope :(

Very nice work as always. :)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb July 08, 2013, 11:04:10 AM
Greg... that "Nahverteidigungswaffe" is on the Dragon Panther F turret roof already.. which is nice.

Still wanted more, hence the 4 fixed launchers forward and 2 at the rear.
The Vorsatz-P to my mind is just not effective.
got the last of the IR gear fitted (thanks BNA and Great Wall - IR set http://www.bnamodelworld.com/bmz_cache/c/c45b871f34cc8f3054bd947f76a9758d.image.950x676.jpg (http://www.bnamodelworld.com/bmz_cache/c/c45b871f34cc8f3054bd947f76a9758d.image.950x676.jpg) )

Hopefully pix tuesday or Weds night.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine
: buzzbomb July 09, 2013, 07:06:58 PM
Some liddle tidbits to tidy up after taking photos.. they always dob on you but as good as finished

So to recap, this is a Federation of Germany Panther F with Gas Turbine that was in action with the Allies against the Soviet invaders in Late 1945. A new camo scheme was developed for these night fighting specialists to blend with their preferred ambush sites on the edge of forests. Fitted with all the latest Infrared gear they are very effective and when deployed own the night battlefield.. sadly they are very, very few in number.

(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther11.jpg)
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther13.jpg)
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther14.jpg)
(http://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/AFV/panther/panther15.jpg)

Will post in the finished blog perhaps with some new photos if I tidy up the few blunders I have spotted.

: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: Dr. YoKai July 09, 2013, 08:39:39 PM
 Ah, man - thats a gorgeous build.
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: Cliffy B July 09, 2013, 11:14:31 PM
LOVE IT!!!!!!!  Please build some more vehicles to go along with this one.  8) 8) 8)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: Claymore July 09, 2013, 11:22:27 PM
Nice work indeed good sir. Well done.  :)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: GTX_Admin July 10, 2013, 02:19:15 AM
Outstanding finish! :) :)
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: father ennis July 10, 2013, 06:07:21 AM
Outstanding !!!!!     :-*
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: Old Wombat July 11, 2013, 11:39:10 PM
Nice one, Brian! :)

8)

Guy
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: apophenia July 12, 2013, 08:51:47 AM
Excellent build and I love the 'woodlands' camouflage scheme!
: Re: Beyond '46, Panther F with Gas Turbine - Finished
: FAAMAN August 03, 2013, 08:34:49 AM
Brilliant premise, excellent build, well done  8) 8)