Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 17, 2012, 03:36:07 AM
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/A3D-2-Skywarrior-VAH-6-April1958.jpg/220px-A3D-2-Skywarrior-VAH-6-April1958.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/A3D-2-Skywarrior-VAH-6-April1958.jpg)
(Click on thumbnail image to see MUCH larger image courtesy of Wikipedia)
Since we will soon be blessed with a large scale A-3 Skywarrior in actual plastic and not a vacuum form or resin/multi-media kit it might be time to start looking at this aircraft for the purpose of not building it straight out of the box :)
I had an idea the other day that involved the Skywarrior and the features from the B-57G Canberra Tropic Moon program where you could take the cheek parts from the B-57G and graft these parts on to the A-3 to make a carrier launched Tropic Moon Skywarrior. The space was most certainly available in the aircraft for all of those little black boxes associated with the various systems, so why not?
Wikipedia - A-3 Skywarrior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-3_Skywarrior)
A-3 Skywarrior Association (http://www.a3skywarrior.com/)
[Boeing] Douglas A-3 Skywarrior Product Information Page (http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/skywar.htm)
Flight Global: An Analysis of the Douglas A3D Skywarrior of the U.S. Navy (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955 - 0205.html)
(http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957 - 0209.htmlFlight Global: Skywarrior - Designing the World's Heaviest Carrier-based Aircraft[/url)
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It would make sense for there to be a Skywarrior I it would seem. Or a GR.1.
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Since we will soon be blessed with a large scale A-3 Skywarrior in actual plastic and not a vacuum form or resin/multi-media kit
Who from? What scale?
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1:48 Trommmmmmmput'r
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Ah...I see.
I guess the fact that only today I picked up a 1:48 Resin A-3 should be a point of laughter then. :-[
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Although my collection of Maple Leaf decals is very small, there seem to be enough Monogram tooled Phoenix Missiles to put several on one of these.
Or some spurious anti submarine rocket too big to be carried by the Aud Nasuem Hornet resulting in a very long career in multiple services for the thing.
Was there ever a proposal for a cargo variant like the Hawkeye/Greyhound set? Or executive transport?
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Daryl, there was a VIP version, VA-3B. Seating for 6 IIRC
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I am thinking of doing mine as a West German ELINT aircraft.
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<...>
I had an idea the other day that involved the Skywarrior and the features from the B-57G Canberra Tropic Moon program where you could take the cheek parts from the B-57G and graft these parts on to the A-3 to make a carrier launched Tropic Moon Skywarrior. The space was most certainly available in the aircraft for all of those little black boxes associated with the various systems, so why not? <...>
That sounds like a cool project! :) Pave Gat or LGBs? Or both? Or some bigger cannon?
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I had an idea the other day that involved the Skywarrior and the features from the B-57G Canberra Tropic Moon program where you could take the cheek parts from the B-57G and graft these parts on to the A-3 to make a carrier launched Tropic Moon Skywarrior. The space was most certainly available in the aircraft for all of those little black boxes associated with the various systems, so why not?
I agree that that sounds very interesting! :)
I guess that in real life the A6 TRAM more or less fulfilled that role, but (one of my pet whiffs) what if the A-6 programme had gone off the rails due to avionics problems and it had never got into service?
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<...>
I had an idea the other day that involved the Skywarrior and the features from the B-57G Canberra Tropic Moon program where you could take the cheek parts from the B-57G and graft these parts on to the A-3 to make a carrier launched Tropic Moon Skywarrior. The space was most certainly available in the aircraft for all of those little black boxes associated with the various systems, so why not? <...>
That sounds like a cool project! :) Pave Gat or LGBs? Or both? Or some bigger cannon?
No idea. Only got as far as the electro-optical stuff and then found another ball to chase :)
In real life the Navy did have a similar system mounted on a few A-6 Intruders called the TRIM (Trails/Roads Interdiction Multi-Sensor) all of the major parts were stuck in a big ugly pod that was mounted on the center fuselage stores pylon. So a Tropic Moon Skywarrier could be a TRIM Skywarrior instead if you wanted to get picky on the technical details. :)
Wikipedia - image - A-6C Intruder (BuNo. 155660), VA-35 in flight with the TRIM pod (ca 1972) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/A-6C_VA-35_CVA-66_1972.jpg)
Wikipedia - A-6 Intruder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_A-6_Intruder)
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Real world question: what is the Skywarrior variant with the long pointed nose? There is some footage on YouTube of one landing. Presumably it's a test aircraft, but for what?
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This one?
(http://www.air-and-space.com/skywarrior/890113al.jpg)
It is a NTA-3B used to test radar for the F-14 Tomcat. There are also other variations - see here (http://www.air-and-space.com/skywarrior.htm)
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I think yes. And there's the answer. Thank-you. :)
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I think yes. And there's the answer. Thank-you. :)
My pleasure. Of course A-3 + AWG-9 radar and AIM-54 Phoenix missiles = something interesting...
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Precisely.
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I think yes. And there's the answer. Thank-you. :)
My pleasure. Of course A-3 + AWG-9 radar and AIM-54 Phoenix missiles = something interesting...
"A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet..."
Isn't that just a Douglas F6D Missileer with swept wings? ;D
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Isn't that just a Douglas F6D Missileer with swept wings? ;D
Yes - but more better/faster. Only you need more room to park it.
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That nose looks pretty nice on the Skywarrior. On most aircraft with test noses, the noses look scabbed on and more or less out of place. This one looks just natural, I think.
Would there be enough internal space for a rotary launcher for AIM-54s?
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That nose looks pretty nice on the Skywarrior. On most aircraft with test noses, the noses look scabbed on and more or less out of place. This one looks just natural, I think.
Unlike these:
(http://www.air-and-space.com/skywarrior/821017c%20m.jpg)
(http://www.air-and-space.com/20021028%20Van%20Nuys/2%2005%20NTA-3B%20N879RS%20left%20front%20m.jpg)
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Did the Skywarrior ever get ejection seats? Did the engines remain largely the same throughout its career?
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If it was kept on longer in tanker/COD/EW roles, how about re-engining with TF-30s?
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I would tend more for TF33s.
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Slightly off-topic, on the subject of interesting nosejobs, I found this site which has a couple of unusual aircraft (scroll down to the 2nd half of the page):
http://www.mace-b.com/38tmw/missiles/flight.htm (http://www.mace-b.com/38tmw/missiles/flight.htm)
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I think yes. And there's the answer. Thank-you. :)
Isn't that just a Douglas F6D Missileer with swept wings? ;D
Sorry my friend, but no cigar!
The A3D (A-3) Skywarrior was both bigger and heavier!
In fact Douglas actually submitted a dedicated variant of the A3D Skywarrior to the USN's FAD RFP. It was the Douglas Model D-760! As you can see it by the attachments, the D-760 was designed to carry 4 x Eagle AAM in its bomb bay and another 4 x Eagles under its wings!
The D-760 could have been but into operational service much quicker and simpler (and I would assume cheaper) than an 'all new' Missileer design. But it would have impacted in premium spotting space!
M.A.D
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So: J-79s with their new engine pods/etc., revised nose for the radar unit, underwing TER-like pylons with an Eagle and Sidewinder. One gets lost at sea near Taiwan and later the missile winds up in clone form under a Finback or Flanker. But I digress.... :icon_beer: :icon_beer: :icon_beer:
But one does wonder if TF33 variants could have gone to the Gulf this past 1/2 lifetime of conflict. Or if they could do the Mach Loop, but in Norwegian colors. ;D
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Did the Skywarrior ever get ejection seats? Did the engines remain largely the same throughout its career?
No and yes. Simples!
Gotta bail? Lower the crew entry door, lean back and bobs yer uncle.
The engines were never uprated. That's the big reason the ERA-3B couldn't trap aboard a boat-not enough go around power.
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Thanks.
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Could it carry Hound Dogs?
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This sort?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Rhodesian_Ridgeback_600.jpg)
Or this?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Agm-28_1.jpg)
Sorry...couldn't resist. ;D
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This:
(http://www.jerrypippin.com/bmb2.jpg)
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Considering that the missile kind would need to be carried outboard of the engine nacelles, I'm not totally certain but if they were, 'twould be a tight fit. On the other hand, just as with the B-52, the extra engines could help on takeoff.
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Ogival curves on all flying surfaces tips similar to that of the Hawker Hunter and early Harriers. It's a recurring theme with me but to my eyes the Skywarrior would carry them well.
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Random ideas: RN FAA or Aéronavale version?
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Random ideas: RN FAA or Aéronavale version?
Would the Clemenceau (R 98) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Clemenceau_(R98)) and Foch (R 99) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foch_(R_99)) have been able to support an aircraft as large as the Skywarrior?
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Would the Clemenceau (R 98) ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Clemenceau_(R98))[/url] and Foch (R 99) ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foch_(R_99))[/url] have been able to support an aircraft as large as the Skywarrior?
Doubtful as they had problems handling anything larger than the F-8 Crusader (which is why the Phantom never had any luck in Aeronavale circles and why the Crusader soldiered on for so long).
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Ah, but in the whiff verse, the Verdun might have entered service...
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps8a89bcec.gif)
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Could it carry Hound Dogs?
Daryl, based on what information is available at Wikipedia for the Boeing AGM-28 Hound Dog Air to Surface Missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-28_Hound_Dog) there is no way the A-3 Skywarrior could physically lift one or a pair of these weapons let alone find room under the wings to fit the pylons that carried them. Scale-o-Rama will get you what you want but certainly not the same scale models. Based on the following weight and dimensions you can see that it would be impossible to do anything but park these things side by side on the parking ramp:
Weight 4,603 kilograms (10,147 lb)
Length 12.95 m (42 feet 6 inches)
Height 2.84 m (9 feet 4 inches)
Diameter 71.0 cm (28 in)
The weight of one missile plus the supporting pylon will exceed the carrying capacity of the Skywarrior which was rated in the bomber version with a maximum payload of 12,800 pounds (5,800 kg).
By the way, the engine on the AGM-28 Hound Dog is the J52 which also powered some models of the the A-4 Skyhawk, A-6 and EA-6 Intruders, and several other aircraft.
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Ah, but in the whiff verse, the Verdun might have entered service...
Or a couple of long hull Essex class (or Midway class) carriers are loaned to France to support their commitment to NATO...
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How about USMC VMA(H) Skywarrior squadrons?
Taking the Marine's air-ground team concept just a little further in the air-support concept.
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Does anyone have a good image or drawing of the stores pylon mounted under the wing of the A-3 Skywarrior (or the B-66)? Searching through all of my references has given me nothing but oblique views of the pylon or some rather horrible and very pixelated images of drawings that were not the best to start with. The only stores pylon that I know of is part of the Collectaire 1:48th scale EB-66/B-66 Destroyer kit. The Trumpeter 1:48th scale A3D Skywarrior kit does not include the pylons and I have no idea if these will be included in any future EA-3 or EKA-3 Skywarrior kit from Trumpeter. I noted a similarity between the heavy wing stores pylon on the A-1 Skyraider (A-1E and later models) and the pylon used on the Skywarrior. I might be coincidence or it could be my imagination running rampant but it would be nice to know by way of better references if the pylons share something in common.
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I am thinking of doing mine as a West German ELINT aircraft.
I like where you're going with that thinking.
The Skywarrior would look particularly great in Norm 72 and perhaps good in the later Norm 81 scheme as well.
I imagine it would also look pretty fetching in West German navy colours from the F-104 and early Tornado eras. Sling a couple of Kormorans under the wings and go fishing.
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What comes to mind is to hang under each wing one B-52D/G/H or B-58 J79 jet engine pod.
Any of those will make for a short takeoff roll and steep climb.
Parts are available to build it 1/72.
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Sling a couple of Kormorans under the wings and go fishing.
Kormorans on a German Navy Skywarrior sounds like an excellent idea.
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Sling a couple of Kormorans under the wings and go fishing.
Kormorans on a German Navy Skywarrior sounds like an excellent idea.
I'd think Exocets would do well on a French Navy variation. Surely the Skywarrior has the internal volume for the additional fuel and Exocet specific electronics gear that it could carry a pair as opposed to the single one carried by the Super Etendard.
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Images of SKywarrior wing pylons
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4080/4807284479_28329d4751_o.jpg)
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Dietsch/4253L.jpg)
(http://geta-o.jp/USMIL/A/A-3/ERA-3B/142668(11)ERA-3B-3574.jpg)
(http://www.fspilotshop.com/images/VRT-400i.jpg)
I posted the best of the bunch from as many angles as I could find. Looks like you could used wing pylons from an A-6.
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Images of SKywarrior wing pylons
I posted the best of the bunch from as many angles as I could find. Looks like you could used wing pylons from an A-6.
Thanks but that was pretty much the same stuff I was encountering in my own searches. Not quite what I was looking for which was something that would provide better details of the pylon without the aircraft being the focus of the image.
***update.
Now that the ARC forums are back up and working again I was able to contact one of the resident experts on all things related to Naval Aviation. His reply was quick in coming and hopefully we will have a nice drawing of said stores pylons sometime soon that provides the information necessary to make them from scratch. Perhaps Trumpeter will wise up and include the pylons in a later version of the A-3/A3D which would be even better.
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Random idea: swing wing version with the engines on swivelling pylons
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Images of SKywarrior wing pylons
([url]http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4080/4807284479_28329d4751_o.jpg[/url])
OK, so what's the story behind this great big radome ?
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OK, so what's the story behind this great big radome ?
sinusitis?
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Found something about it, it's the NTA-3B. Used to test the F-14 radar. You can find more pics on Airliners.net
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Testbed for the air-to-air BOMARC program. :)
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Found something about it, it's the NTA-3B. Used to test the F-14 radar. You can find more pics on Airliners.net
Specifically the F-14D's radar. This older A3D was used to test the AWG-9 radar for the original F-14 and the Phoenix missile.
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Thanks Talos, why was the radome so big though ?
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The radar was mounted pretty far forward, the radome forward of that is pretty normal.
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How about an operational version of that? ;D
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/Douglas-Missileer-concept_zpsbb4101f0.png)
There should be enough space for internal carriage of at least two AIM-54s in a shallow internal bay or four in a deeper bay. With folding fins you could probably even do a revolver magazine for five or six missiles.
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OK, so what's the story behind this great big radome ?
Source page: Flevo Aviation Hobby (http://www.flevoaviationhobby.net)
BuNo.144834 RA-3B Skywarrior
Converted to NRA-3B July 1974 and to TNRA-3B Jul 1985. To AMARC as 2A0125 Sep 7, 1990. Bailed to Raytheon. Last served with VAQ-34 based at NAS Point Mugu, CA.
Extra Info: As many as six RA-3Bs were modified as NRA-3Bs for use for various test purposes. One of these NRA-3Bs (144834) was again modified to be the sole TNRA-3B as a two-seat training aircraft. However, dual controls were not actually fitted before the aircrat was delivered. 144843 was bailed to Raytheon and used for tests and evaluation during the Patriot surface-to-air missile program.
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How about an operational version of that? ;D
There should be enough space for internal carriage of at least two AIM-54s in a shallow internal bay or four in a deeper bay. With folding fins you could probably even do a revolver magazine for five or six missiles.
That looks really cool. The only thing I would change is strip off the gun (unneeded for a Missileer), maybe the IRST too, and tweak the nose some so it matches the real-world test birds a little more.
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A-3 Missileer is one sweet concept.
Deserves to be kitbashed.
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The Missileer makes me sorry to have donated my 2 Hasegawa Whales.... ;D
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Anyone find any images of the A-3 FAD Missileer proposal? Especially the J-79 engine pods? Wonder if a pair of B-58 engine pods would work? Guessing they wouldn't have had AB's ...
thanks
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Hi Gary! Good to see you surface here at BTS.
I suppose you could get away with using the B-58 engine pods and just skip the AB features. Maybe even shorten it up on overall length of the nacelle to account for no AB?
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Hi Jeff. I'm around just quiet, but should be getting some build time more often. Been wanting to do an A-3 for a while and then found this thread. Could be some fun. Now to find some engine pods.
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Hi Gary,
Lurking is okay too. I had not seen or heard from you in a while. Figured your move to the California desert was taking up most of your time. Nonetheless, great to see you here at BTS!
I was excited to see Trumpeter release the TA-3 but that soon turned to bitter disappointment when I discovered the wing stores pylon (shown on box art) was not included in the kit.
Have had a strong interest in the A-3 but not OOB :)
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Anyone find any images of the A-3 FAD Missileer proposal? Especially the J-79 engine pods? Wonder if a pair of B-58 engine pods would work? Guessing they wouldn't have had AB's ...
thanks
See here:
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/Image138.jpg)(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/D790-0002.jpg)
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/D790-0001.jpg)(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/A3D%20Missileer.jpg)
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Thank you!!
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I like that inboard (between engine and fuselage) stores pylon.
Perhaps a fuel tank could be mounted in that position? :)
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Yeah I like the extra stores station too.
Trying to decide which way I want to go ... the big bulbous radome or the one with the Tomcat radome (and maybe tandem canopy as in CherneyAkula's profile).
Btw Jeffry, I'm still here in WA although I've gone down to China Lake for a few visits. Now also have 4 feral kittens we found in the yard down there. Got them all fixed, shots, bloodwork, etc, and trying to turn them into pets so eating a lot of would be model time but fun still the same.
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Wish Steel Beach would consider producing the missing wing pylons. I have asked him a couple of times to consider doing this but I guess it all comes down to good reference drawings and images to make it happen.
@GaryF - Good luck with the kitten project. Hope they all convert to domesticity without issues. :)
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What if a Business/Pasenger/Cargo version of Skywarrior?
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What if a Business/Pasenger/Cargo version of Skywarrior?
Carlos,
The TA-3 would work for that mission as it had no bomb bay and that area was fitted with seats and controls to train bombardier/navigators. Some were actually converted to carry passengers as VIP aircraft for general officers/flag officers.
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Hi Jeffry,
Digging in my resin stash and found an ERA-3 conversion which has the wing pylons (72nd). They are identified as Aero 7 pylons/release units, if it helps any. I probably have everything I need to do this in 72nd but would have to dig deep to get it all out, but would rather do it in 48th.
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In my own research I noticed a very strong similarity in shape between the A-1 (AD) Skyraider pylons and the A-3 (A3D) Skywarrior pylons and it might work for a 1:72nd scale kit to try and use the 1:48th scale pylons with a 1:72nd scale A-3. Unfortunately there is nothing I know of in 1:32nd scale that is cheap or available to do the same for a 1:48th scale Skywarrior. I mention this as it might be a means for anyone building the A-3 in 1:72nd scale to source said pylons for a similar project.
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Anyone aware of any AEW Skywarrior proposals or testbeds?
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Anyone aware of any AEW Skywarrior proposals or testbeds?
Well, not exactly AEW, but there's that one with the AWG-9 in the nose and there's one with a "small" rotodome on an extension of the fuselage past the vertical tail. Both were originally USN aircraft but were later sold to, and flown by, Thunderbird Aviation.
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Yeah the one with the Tomcat radome and Phoenix would be interesting. Guess they've also been fitted with F-111B, F-35 radomes and one pic I found sure looked like a Global Hawk radome. Bu I was thinking more along the lines of an E-1 or E-2 type roof mounted system ... picked up a TA-3B and the bomb bay area crew setup would work out great for something like that.
***edit to add image for GaryF that he sent to my eMail from his phone.-jjf
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one pic I found sure looked like a Global Hawk radome.
Can you post that here?
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Definitely an odd looking A-3 with that strange radome attached.
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Thanks for the help Jeff.
Also, more like Reaper radome, not Global Hawk ... mixed up my UAV's.
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Just putting this out here for thought:
RN Skywarrior GRS.X
RAF Skywarrior GRS.X
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Random idea: EA-3B AWACS
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Cargo/VIP Destroyer
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/CargoDestroyer.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/CargoDestroyer.jpg.html)
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Sweeeet :smiley:
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What Bill said. Tres cool!!! :smiley:
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Destroyer with strange noses - Episode 57:
F-111 radar trials aircraft
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/3c/4c/f53c4c7c6c70c2aef8895bbec5961b8c.jpg)
SOURCE (https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p461638342/h1AF320DE#h1af320de) (with bigger pic)