Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Scenarios => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on January 29, 2022, 02:26:37 AM

Title: No WWII
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 29, 2022, 02:26:37 AM
A new idea.  What if WWII just doesn't happen?  This could take multiple forms, for example:


Either way, we see the 1920s continue into the 1930s...into the 1940s but without any major wars.

Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Kerick on January 29, 2022, 07:30:16 AM
Certain technologies would not have advanced as they did. We might still be flying around in prop airliners with the 707 on the drawing board. NASA would be dreaming of moon landings and space telescopes. Big debate on battleships compared to aircraft carriers. Could be interesting whiffs.
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: perttime on January 29, 2022, 03:00:17 PM
So we likely don't have a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and Germany doesn't go looking for Lebensraum. Is the lack of the Pact enough to keep Stalin (or whoever is in power there) from expansion plans?
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: M.A.D on January 29, 2022, 06:54:51 PM
So I'm surmising that the consequences of the aftermath of the Great War still effects and displaces millions, the Great Depression still occurs. This still equates to a sociological divide throughout the world - i.e. Growth in Socialism, Fascism (Although you state no Hitler, there still might be an influencing Nazi Party.... Mussolini unfortunately still comes to power, although without Hitler pissing in his pocket, his taste for conquest is curtailed), Nationalism and Communism still occurs.
Would there be a Spanish Civil War on the scale it occured?
If there's no Hitler, one would assume the Weimar Republic would continue and with that perhaps greater natural convergence with the Soviet Union for both trade of natural resources, and of course military technological experiment and development (Treaty of Rapallo & Treaty of Berlin) as a consequence of the Russian Revolution/Russian Civil War and the Treaty of Versailles, not to mention Germany's want to ensure a divide between Britain and Soviet Union.

If the Weimar Republic continues without Hitler's idelogical crap, I'm wondering if German would side with China rather than Imperial Japan? After all the Weimar Republic showed it's willingness to supply/equip and train the Nationalist Chinese government/military....

Could the Weimar Republic attempt to regain its lost colonies, taken from it as a consequence of losing the Great War?

Could there be a resurgence of British/US tensions, as a consequence of economics, the Great Depression or US ambition of empire building....

I do like the idea of a developing and mature Czechoslovakia, what with the growth in capability and reputation of Skoda, Ceska Zbrojovka, Avia, .....


MAD
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Story on January 30, 2022, 12:35:17 AM
The Nature of Evil being what it is, I could see several lesser curses inflicting the planet in the absence of the greater one.

NOTE: Now available as a free 3D File.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1136189 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1136189)
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Frank3k on January 30, 2022, 02:48:01 AM
If Private Henry Tandey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Tandey) would have chosen duty over sentimentality, Hitler would have ended 1918 with his brains spilling into the mud of a WWI German trench.
Without Hitler, I'm sure Stalin would have been emboldened without a strong continental European foe; maybe a strong Czechoslovakia like MAD mentioned would have helped slow him down. I'm sure Stalin would have wanted to poke at Poland again (and probably lose) and at Finland (definitely lose) so there would be some activity in Europe.

The Japanese empire was going gangbusters in China without Germany's help, although the West wouldn't have noticed or cared until Dutch, British and US interests were threatened. The original Mussolini would have been contained by the UK and maybe even Germany and France as soon as they threatened their interests in the Med, Levant or Africa.

Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 30, 2022, 06:14:42 AM
Some random musings:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Picture_1.png)

CFBV
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: M.A.D on January 30, 2022, 08:26:54 AM
Perhaps Poland and Czechoslovakia establish a deep alliance to counter both the Soviet Union and resurgent Weimar Republic 🤔
This could mean that the Polish military can modernise quicker using then state-of-the-art Czech industrial power, drive and know-how...
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Story on January 30, 2022, 09:45:10 AM
What if the Turkish leadership wasn't so gunshy from the Ottoman experience in WW1?

In 1938, the Turkish Army at peacetime strength consisted of 174,000 soldiers and 20,000 officers forming 11 army corps, 23 divisions, one armoured brigade, 3 cavalry brigades and 7 frontier commands.
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 01:28:11 PM
The Weimar Republic was on rocky ground at the best of times & it was only a matter of when, not if either the Nazis or Communists took control of Germany. Without the charisma of Hitler to focus their drive & ambition the Nazis & Communists would have been of about equal effectiveness, so I'd think that Germany would have devolved into civil war.

If the communists won & were in control in the USSR & Germany, it's a fair bet that the British & French (& possibly the USA) would have bolstered the militaries of Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia & Hungary, at the very least. Neither the USSR nor Germany would have been capably of organising a coordinated attack on Poland for quite some time.

If the Nazis won then neither they nor Germany would have been in any condition to quickly mobilise for war, so a much longer build up would be likely.

This hiatus would have given the Czechs the opportunity to mature their industrial capacity, which was only just beginning to find its own feet in the late 1930's. Mutual defence pacts between the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians &, possibly, Finns, along with various Anglo-French alliances, would have made any attack on any individual country problematic. Czechoslovakia could have begun supplying military hardware to its allies in Eastern Europe & Scandinavia.

These changes may not have prevented a WW2 but they may have significantly delayed it (possibly by decades).
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Story on January 30, 2022, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 01:28:11 PM

These changes may not have prevented a WW2 but they may have significantly delayed it (possibly by decades).

In that Timeline (hell, almost any of them), I could see agents of the Kremlin fomenting the 2nd Sepoy Rebellion to kick off on the 90th Anniversary of the first one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Story on January 30, 2022, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 01:28:11 PM

These changes may not have prevented a WW2 but they may have significantly delayed it (possibly by decades).

In that Timeline (hell, almost any of them), I could see agents of the Kremlin fomenting the 2nd Sepoy Rebellion to kick off on the 90th Anniversary of the first one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement

Maybe the 100th? ;)
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Story on January 31, 2022, 12:27:26 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Story on January 30, 2022, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 01:28:11 PM

These changes may not have prevented a WW2 but they may have significantly delayed it (possibly by decades).

In that Timeline (hell, almost any of them), I could see agents of the Kremlin fomenting the 2nd Sepoy Rebellion to kick off on the 90th Anniversary of the first one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement

Maybe the 100th? ;)

I was figuring 1857 (Round 1 slaughterfest) to 1947 (Indian Independence our timeline / Round 2 slaughterfestalternate timeline - cause stress fractures would probably run the same way in the multiverse?)
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Old Wombat on January 31, 2022, 10:35:08 AM
Quote from: Story on January 31, 2022, 12:27:26 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: Story on January 30, 2022, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on January 30, 2022, 01:28:11 PM

These changes may not have prevented a WW2 but they may have significantly delayed it (possibly by decades).

In that Timeline (hell, almost any of them), I could see agents of the Kremlin fomenting the 2nd Sepoy Rebellion to kick off on the 90th Anniversary of the first one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement

Maybe the 100th? ;)

I was figuring 1857 (Round 1 slaughterfest) to 1947 (Indian Independence our timeline / Round 2 slaughterfest alternate timeline - cause stress fractures would probably run the same way in the multiverse?)

Yes, but there was a whole World War which accelerated the Indian independence movement & weakened the British Empire/Commonwealth. Adding an extra decade for some other forces to take effect is not too extreme & 100th anniversaries are important, psychologically.
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: bluedonkey99 on February 04, 2022, 11:44:37 PM


       - Could this bring greater engagement from the Ottomans?
       - would the above provide sufficient industrial resources for the communists to expand (clearly, never on the scale of the allied support provided during WWII)

         - Do we have transatlantic/intercontinental jets, or bigger props fleets?
         - Do we have a new breed of seaplanes etc and does this give rise to new geopolitical flash points, based upon the need for military/commercial sea plane bases around the globe

       - a longer drawn-out campaign with the Americans?
       - a Japanese Australia [/li]

[li]As an alleged" "non imperialist power", would America seek to extend its "not an empire" beyond the Philippines, pacific and Caribbean territories? [/li][/list]
        - would Cuba/Costa Rica become states or 'protectorates'
        - would American trade preferential result in a more fractious relationship with Britain, or would the mutual desire to milk the worlds economies see a pan-Atlantic alliance?

        - if not - does that enable a global pandemic causing uprising and rebellion around the developing nations and 3rd world,?
        - does it lead to a different kind of global conflict?

[/list]
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: Story on May 06, 2022, 09:41:14 PM
Anglo-Belgian-Franco Coalition against Mussolini's "One Million Bayonets" after the fall of Ethiopia (1937).

Air-delivered chemical weapons, WW1 style logistical challenges, the return of Airships (Helium?) and creaky Light Armor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_East_Africa
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: elmayerle on April 12, 2023, 02:35:12 PM
Some things likely will stay the same, Soviet efforts in Tokyo and Washington, D.C. to push the US and Japan into conflict rather than have Japan turn it's eyes toward the "Northern Resource Area: (Siberia).  And, yes, between the Sorge ring in Tokyo and efforts in Washington, D.C. as documented in the Venona papers, the Soviet Union was definitely pushing for such a conflict.

Without Hitler to champion the NSDAP, I don't know that the nazis would have come to power in Germany, but if things were too even, I could see them making temporary common cause with the communists (after all, both are, for lack of a better term, denominations of Socialism just as Fascism was).
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: kim margosein on April 13, 2023, 11:14:34 AM
Well, my two pfennigs.   Ernst Roehm gets the jump on Hitler.  Without Hitler. there is no devil's bargain  with the industrialists, and the SS can go home and hang up their Hugo Boss uniforms.  Germany moves toward a left-center authoritarian government, with a German version of the New Deal.  A proto-European Union forms around Germanyh Poland Italy Turkey and Hungary.
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: ChalkLine on August 02, 2024, 09:55:53 AM
Quote from: kim margosein on April 13, 2023, 11:14:34 AM
Well, my two pfennigs.   Ernst Roehm gets the jump on Hitler.  Without Hitler. there is no devil's bargain  with the industrialists, and the SS can go home and hang up their Hugo Boss uniforms.  Germany moves toward a left-center authoritarian government, with a German version of the New Deal.  A proto-European Union forms around Germanyh Poland Italy Turkey and Hungary.

Unfortunately this doesn't account for Strasser and the Reichswehr which was more Nazi than the Nazis. The Reichswehr and its attached Freikorps already had the drang nach osten ideology entirely incorporated into their philosophy. The reason this isn't commonly accounted for is because of The Clean Wehrmacht Myth.

As the French and Pershing said at Versailles after the German military was allowed to go home and crush the socialist uprising "now we'll have to fight them again in twenty years".
Title: Re: No WWII
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 03, 2024, 01:04:10 AM
Quote from: kim margosein on April 13, 2023, 11:14:34 AM
Ernst Roehm gets the jump on Hitler.

Given Röhm's personal tastes that has bad imagery all over it... ;)