Author Topic: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon  (Read 15469 times)

Offline The Big Gimper

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BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« on: December 26, 2017, 07:42:37 PM »
Found via Twittter

12 cm lvakan, 52 shot mag with remote-controlled recharging and the capacity to shoot 80 rounds/min.

Via Google Translate:

This is the world's largest mobile air force gun ever, and at the same time the only copy being built. With its entire 12 cm in caliber it is an impressive play - and a clear facit of the fears of the cold war aroused. It would manage to shoot down a high-level bomb plane, loaded with nuclear weapons. But even though the capability of the gun gives respect, the device became too big and untrue for mass production. It weighs a total of 23 tons. However, it has been deployed in Swedish air defense between 1960-73. To carry the play a cargo truck was required.

At the end of the 50's, the robot began to come, Bofors wanted to see if one could compete with a cannon and built this mobile air defense machine gun. However, it became too awkward and it took too long for the shot to reach the goal after firing, so the defense chose to buy robots instead.




Garnisons- och Luftvärnsmuseet − 91:anmuseet
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 02:34:10 AM »
Are you going to scratch build one?
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 05:19:50 AM »
A 23 ton gun?!!! Color me impressed!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 02:55:40 AM »
Some more images:





Some more info here
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2018, 03:57:22 AM »
This just in...

January 17, 2018
Quote
Sweden is preparing to send a brochure to 4.7m households warning them for the first time in more than half a century of what they should do in the event of a war. The booklet will deal with issues such as how members of the public can take part in “total defence” during a war and how to secure basic needs such as water, food and heating. It will also cover other threats such as cyber attacks, terrorism and climate change. Its publication comes as debate intensifies in Sweden about defence and security issues, the threat from Russia and whether the country should join Nato.


https://www.ft.com/content/2036e176-fad6-11e7-9b32-d7d59aace167

Hmmm.
120 mm/46 (4.7") TAK120
Quote
A Bofors fully-automatic weapon intended for large Fast Attack Craft (FAC). Developed on a private-venture basis from the Luftvärnsautomatkanon 4501 anti-aircraft field gun.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSweden_47-46_TAK120.php

From a tactical standpoint, a fixed position coastal defense cannon would be a sitting duck destined for a short lifespan. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_cm_tornautomatpjäs_m/70

A completely autonomous mobile cannon with an AI computer and drone sensors https://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/15382/Kalashnikov-Introduces-Autonomous-Cannon.aspx
could be dropped off at any one of a number of pre-picked but camoflauged firing locations in the event that a section of seacoast needed protection.

Here's a modern Prime Mover
https://www.walmart.com/ip/1-32-Scale-Volvo-VN-780-W-Dry-Van-Trailer-Container/46416530?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=6377&adid=22222222227033798834&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=74065866896&wl4=pla-123801486296&wl5=9007306&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=115068449&wl11=online&wl12=46416530&wl13=&veh=sem


The only inkling that such a project was underway would be in this musuem piece disappeared overnight at some point in the near future.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:06:25 AM by Story »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 11:05:43 AM »
But IMHO it could be mounted on a reinforced Leopard 2 hull or so. What do you think?

Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 12:00:46 PM »
If it was required to travel cross-country, that's be great.

But if this weapons sysmtem was disguised for movement as just another 18 wheeler refrigerated tractor-trailer, the unit could travel incognito, take high-speed avenues of approach [Sweden's autobahns] to those scenic coastal overlooks, shed it's cladding and be in position fast enough to surprise doddering enemy surface traffic on the Baltic.

Offline finsrin

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 12:24:42 PM »
If it was required to travel cross-country, that's be great.

But if this weapons sysmtem was disguised for movement as just another 18 wheeler refrigerated tractor-trailer, the unit could travel incognito, take high-speed avenues of approach [Sweden's autobahns] to those scenic coastal overlooks, shed it's cladding and be in position fast enough to surprise doddering enemy surface traffic on the Baltic.
Good point  :smiley:

Offline perttime

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 03:57:30 PM »
But why go for huge mobile cannon for coastal work when you have mobile missiles and more handy artillery pieces?

Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2018, 01:09:43 AM »
As I understand it, the US Navy is already defeating anti-shipping missiles that are programmed to perform evasive maneuvers on terminal approach, doing it regularly and with great success ( at relatively high mach speeds, buy maybe not hypervelocity ones.. yet). So if the USN can do that, it's only a matter of time before the Kremlin steals that technology.

As with any modernization program, use of all-the-self components is desirable.
Sweden, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands have chosen the Excalibur precision-guided projectile to address vital security interests, and several other international partners are finalizing procurement plans.
All the Swedes would need to do is resize this from 5" to 4.5", which might be a neat spinoff (120mm Excalibur) meaning that the luftvärnsautomatkanon might be a Test Bed that has the additional benefit of being a wild card in Sweden's 21st Century coastal defense program.
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/excalibur/

See also "All Eggs in one basket, undesirable".
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:20:52 AM by Story »

Offline Gingie

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2018, 06:48:48 AM »
Excalibur is a field arty round though, the Swede beast here is for Anti-Aircraft fires.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2018, 09:45:57 AM »
If I recall correctly there was a proposal to use the PzH2000 as a CRAM system using programmable air burst rounds.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2018, 10:31:27 AM »
But why go for huge mobile cannon for coastal work when you have mobile missiles and more handy artillery pieces?
I keep thinking of GLCM launch vehicles repurposed to work with the anti-ship version of the Tomahawk as an interesting coastal defense concept, much as I would have encouraged adding a zeroth stage to Pershing II to create a Pershing III small ICBM.

Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2018, 06:41:30 AM »
Excalibur is a field arty round though, the Swede beast here is for Anti-Aircraft fires.


Uh huh... and?



Here's your map of potential coastal defense firing positions, secondaries and tertiaries (blunt the blue Arrows & win valuable medals).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 12:02:45 PM by Story »


Offline Gingie

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 05:16:53 AM »
Excalibur is a field arty round though, the Swede beast here is for Anti-Aircraft fires.

Uh huh... and?


b/c there is a significant difference in design of a complete round, more than necking it down to 120mm, between dedicated field and AD arty ammo.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 12:27:55 PM »
Excalibur is a field arty round though, the Swede beast here is for Anti-Aircraft fires.

Uh huh... and?


b/c there is a significant difference in design of a complete round, more than necking it down to 120mm, between dedicated field and AD arty ammo.

Field artillery rounds tend to be either semi-fixed or loose rounds.  They have the ability to change the amount of charge used to propel the round.  This, plus a change in trajectory can allow an artillery piece to fire to differing ranges and over obstacles.   It is what allows modern artillery to use "time-on-target" fire missions where the rounds arrive at the same target at approximately the same time despite being fired from a single gun.   AA rounds are usually fixed (ie permamently attached to the case) to ease loading and to make it faster.   They are only designed to be fired upwards and so it doesn't matter how fast they do it (in fact the faster the better).   One of the problems with field artillery is that because of the complexities of differing charges and trajectories, it makes automating the process much harder.   

Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 09:33:01 AM »
Your theories about what can and can not be done with ordnance, necessity and some inspired engineering are interesting, but contradict certain historical precedences.







luftvärnsautomatkanon has a 52 round magazine (actually, looks like there's two magazines). Drones are cheap these days, drones with laser designators could be flown by freakin' Swedish Boy Scouts to paint Russian ships.If the intended targets really needed a four round ToT burst, preload one magazine with sequentially-loaded shells charged 1-4. Need a single shot? Right mag. Four round ToT? Left mag.

It's not like the weapon is going to be reloaded or moved during such a scenario [23 ton museum piece technology testbed cum battlefield surprise], no matter how many sinking Russian boats are out on the water. Plus the Swedes, if properly motivated, might come up with something cheaper that works..
 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:02:52 AM by Story »

Offline Gingie

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2018, 11:47:44 AM »
, but contradict certain historical precedences.


Anti-tank gun re-roled as AD (or vice versa), sure. Fd Arty 155 rounds, still gonna go with a nope.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 02:39:40 PM »
, but contradict certain historical precedences.


Anti-tank gun re-roled as AD (or vice versa), sure. Fd Arty 155 rounds, still gonna go with a nope.

None the less Rhinemetal propose just such an option with their PzH2000 and Dona, combined with a 155mm round using the same AHEAD tech as their millennium 35mm AAA /CWIS

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2018, 10:25:01 PM »
Your theories about what can and can not be done with ordnance,

Not theories, practicalities.  Field artillery is designed to be fired up and over long ranges and over obstacles.  The trajectories that it utilises are designed to allow it's rounds to be fired out to the maximum range of the weapon and over intervening obstacles.   Anti-Aircraft weapons/Anti-Tank weapons/Coast Defence weapons are designed to be fired in straight lines, directly towards the target.    The only similarities between the types of weapons is that they both go, "BANG!"

The utility of field artillery is such that the crew must be able to readily alter the amount of propellant in the chamber.   This is done through having small bags (referred to as "charges") of powder which can be easily removed or added to, when the round is loaded into the weapon.  While humans can do this easily, machinery finds it a lot harder.   This can be helped by making the charges into small packages in cardboard or plastic.  However it still makes it fiddly.

Anti-aircraft/Anti-tank/Coast Defence weapons use fixed rounds to enable easier loading faster.  They have fixed charges in the cartridge case.  This limits the trajectories they can undertake but then, they usually aren't required to fire indirectly (although, towards the end of WWII, AA guns were used in indirect fire missions - it basically gave them something to do when there were so few aircraft around).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2018, 10:36:07 PM »
Your theories about what can and can not be done with ordnance,

Not theories, practicalities.  Field artillery is designed to be fired up and over long ranges and over obstacles.  The trajectories that it utilises are designed to allow it's rounds to be fired out to the maximum range of the weapon and over intervening obstacles.   Anti-Aircraft weapons/Anti-Tank weapons/Coast Defence weapons are designed to be fired in straight lines, directly towards the target.    The only similarities between the types of weapons is that they both go, "BANG!"

The utility of field artillery is such that the crew must be able to readily alter the amount of propellant in the chamber.   This is done through having small bags (referred to as "charges") of powder which can be easily removed or added to, when the round is loaded into the weapon.  While humans can do this easily, machinery finds it a lot harder.   This can be helped by making the charges into small packages in cardboard or plastic.  However it still makes it fiddly.

Anti-aircraft/Anti-tank/Coast Defence weapons use fixed rounds to enable easier loading faster.  They have fixed charges in the cartridge case.  This limits the trajectories they can undertake but then, they usually aren't required to fire indirectly (although, towards the end of WWII, AA guns were used in indirect fire missions - it basically gave them something to do when there were so few aircraft around).

Ummm modern naval gun fire support is conducted with weapons designed initially as DP anti surface and anti air.  Coastal artillery was primarily naval guns and calibres, 6" and 9.2" Cruiser calibres being examples of this.

Offline perttime

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2018, 12:14:44 AM »
Just looked up Finnish Coastal Artillery. It still uses some fixed 130 mm guns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/130_53_TK
Apparently they will be phased out soon.

The shell and charges are loaded separately, and there's two different charges available. Loading is machine-assisted and normal rate of fire is 6 founds per minute, with a capability to shoot 3 rounds in 20 seconds. It can be operated by 4 men but normal crew is 3 NCOs (leader, deputy, and one with the firing solution computer) and 7 men (most of them handling and preparing shells and charges). Maximum range is over 30 km..


Offline Story

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Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2018, 07:32:59 AM »
I've explained how (and provided supporting links) on everything from target designation to modification of smart projectiles and even the loading sequence for alternative target engagements. All I'm reading is "we can't do that, we might get in trouble".

For a place that's supposed to be all about thinking outside the box, we sure have folks who love following straight lines.



Meanwhile, let's have another look at an antiaircraft weapon successfully being used for other-than-originally-intended purposes.



Using a Patton tank for indirect fire? Let's bend his dog tags so's he can't have any ice cream for desert.

ze Germans, thinking outside that damned box again.

None the less Rhinemetal propose just such an option with their PzH2000 and Dona, combined with a 155mm round using the same AHEAD tech as their millennium 35mm AAA /CWIS
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 07:52:33 AM by Story »

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: BOFORS 120 mm luftvärnsautomatkanon
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2018, 01:39:28 PM »
Heavy anti-aircraft guns and tank turrets are among things that have been used for coastal artillery too.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_56_TK