Author Topic: The War Wagon (25mm scale)  (Read 9264 times)

Offline Story

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The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« on: June 24, 2017, 09:54:01 AM »
Anyone remember the John Wayne /Kirk Douglas movie?


The War Wagon is a 1967 Western film starring John Wayne and Kirk Douglas, released by Universal Pictures, directed by Burt Kennedy, produced by Marvin Schwartz, and adapted by Clair Huffaker from his own novel. The picture received generally positive reviews. The supporting cast includes Howard Keel, Robert Walker, Jr., Keenan Wynn, Joanna Barnes and Bruce Dern.


The story of a man who was shot, robbed and imprisoned who returns to steal a large gold shipment from the man who wronged him. The gold is transported in an armored stage coach, the War Wagon.

Cheesy, but you get the drift. Ignoring the blatantly obvious counter-measure of simply shooting all the horses and waiting until the crew left inside just baked to death under the desert sun, what would an armored wagon for gold transport look like? The movie prop makers look like they just slapped a turret and armor on a Wells Fargo coach.

The War Wagon itself was built mostly of plywood and other lightweight materials, and painted to look like iron; appropriate "metallic" sound effects - such as when the "heavy" iron doors are opened and closed, etc. - were added to complete the illusion. For many years, at least through the 1980s, the deteriorating remains of the War Wagon were displayed in "The Boneyard" (a collection of old outdoor movie props) as part of the Universal Studios Backlot Tour in California.

The wagon itself, made mostly of gray painted plywood to resemble steel, with carriage bolts to look like rivet heads, was on display at Universal Studio in Orlando, Florida, during the 1990s. Interestingly, one hub on the wagon was originally on a piece of John Deere farm equipment, as evidenced by the John Deere name cast in the hub.




There's another interpretation rolling around, most recently appearing in the TV series WestWorld


« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:21:52 AM by Story »

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 09:59:58 AM »
War Wagons in both reality and fantasy are not new ideas.

For this build, I started with a caboose. I think it's HO scale. Got it for $1 at a Greenberg's Train Show. But the it can't look like a caboose when we're done. Otherwise, someone would say "oh look, a caboose on a wagon".


Also, research is fun.
Before cabooses, the rear train crew would often ride in a coach or empty boxcar at the back of the train. The earliest cabooses were, in fact, second-hand freight cars built of wood - flatcars outfitted with a crude shelter, or converted boxcars with windows, a stove, and a desk. Following World War I, the all-steel construction of cabooses began. The newly constructed cabooses had steel center-sills and underframes. This advanced caboose design better protected the rear end crew against the train's slack action.

The frame came pre-assembled, from one of those old BORAX 20 MULE TEAM kits.

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 10:02:30 AM »
So, laying out our subcomponents...
.. the parts that need to go away become more obvious..
Note our little stalwart lead guard, for scale.



Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 10:05:42 AM »
Now for some Trotskyite self-criticism, which I also open to the People's Committee for Construction.



Anyone have a leftover turret from the Monitor in this Lindberg kit? Ollie's Discount is blowing this out for $15@.

https://www.amazon.com/Lindberg-scale-Monitor-Merrimack-ships/dp/B000XQ3FEE

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 10:16:43 AM »
Just a note on design practicalities; most antagonists are armed with pistol caliber (eg; .44-40) lever-action rifles along with their revolvers. Some joker with a .50 caliber + Buffalo Rifle might show up in the script, so a War Wagon's armor would need to be thick enough to stop at 500 grain lead slug fired from several hundred yards away.

As an on-board counter-measure to the aforementioned Buffalo Rifle, a .45-70 Gatling would probably be able to range most snipers (if only with plunging fire). Ever notice how bulky a full-sized Gatling can be?

I present.. the Camel Gatling. That's what we'll stuff in a turret, if we make a turret.


*Giggle*
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/colt-1874-camel-gatling-gun-in-45-70-c9743/

Simon from Singapore informs us via the back door that a Bulldog would be a better option. We agree, Simon.
The sights on that little thing are graduated out to 1,000 yards, so that should mess with the 2nd rate actor with the Buffalo Rifle. Note the all-brass barrel shroud, Peanut Gallery.
https://www.usarmcorp.com/manufactured-products/1877-bulldog-gatling-gun
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:31:12 AM by Story »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 06:12:27 PM »
Ahh "The War Wagon". Man this takes me back. I had a friend who was a huge western fan and named his beater Chevy Nova after this epic John Wayne film.

Looking good! I think adding a turret is a grand idea!

Brian da Basher

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2017, 04:04:38 AM »
 :)
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Offline jcf

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2017, 03:47:06 PM »
The sights may have been graduated out to 1000 yards,
however that doesn't mean it would necessarily be effective
at that range, whereas an experienced shooter with one
of the heavy Sharps breechloaders would be very effective.

The Gatling Gun, by Wahl and Toppel, contains reproductions of
test range targets that show a marked drop-off in 'accuracy/effectiveness'
increasing range.
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Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2017, 08:13:14 PM »
Yup. I've seen those reports (also got to fire a real Gatling, albeit only 20 rounds).

In this 1869 test, 100 troops with needle guns (breachloaders) fired 781 rounds and scored 196 hits in one minute at 800 paces. Same distance, same time limit one Gatling fired 246 rounds and scored 216 hits.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bnVJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22gatling+gun%22+%22infantry+target%22&source=bl&ots=2kwPYrszpP&sig=cauD9r-0EA-jeRI4yH3swNcINMc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj374Dwq-DRAhUMxWMKHXmSBw8Q6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22gatling%20gun%22%20%22infantry%20target%22&f=false




And that said, with volume the Gatling doesn't have to have pinpoint accuracy.



Neither side would hold a trump card; slow-rate-of-fire and a target that shoots back would plauge whoever wielded a Buffalo rifle, while this contraption would have to come to a full-stop to take full advantage of the Gatling's accuracy.
(Note that tanks, even with stabilized main guns, have a drill for firing from the 'short halt' - leastways, still did in the 1990s).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:00:49 AM by Story »

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 08:58:25 PM »
I think adding a turret is a grand idea!


One option - $5. Frosted Ultra Detail Width 3.5 cm, Height 1.5 cm, Depth 3.5 cm
https://www.shapeways.com/product/7TBKTL8Z2/turret-body-offset-rivet?optionId=4462690&li=user-profile

What a side view schematic might look like.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 01:46:12 AM by Story »

Offline Camthalion

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2017, 02:16:50 PM »
Looks cool. 

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 02:08:41 AM »
One of the main problems with this sort of thing, just like in the movie, is the high centre of gravity and poor lateral stability.

A turret is a very good idea, but one on top of the caboose overlook structure is a bad idea. Similarly, anything that can lower the caboose box down over the wheels (be it wheel wells or internal chassis or whatever) is a good thing.

Perhaps replace the overlook structure entirely with a turret on a platform that is raised and lowered out of the armoured box of the caboose?

Also, maybe chop and lower the caboose box to, essentially be a storage compartment fore and aft with the turret (in this case non-elevating) in the middle and an armoured cab at the front. No need for the crew to be walking around in there, so no need of the full-height caboose box.

The main gold storage box can be an armoured pannier under the frame, further lowering the CG.

Do a few of those things and it won't look like a caboose anymore, that's for sure.  :D

Paul

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 05:23:54 AM »
All very, very good ideas - and stop thinking on my frequency, Kenneth.

Even the ideal 1883 Police Bulldog version was heavy. Check out this live fire video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ildteJbZ9Jw


                                       
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 05:53:42 AM by Story »

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 08:39:08 AM »
Perhaps replace the overlook structure entirely with a turret on a platform that is raised and lowered out of the armoured box of the caboose?

 
Been poundering. You're up in the mountains at a mine, you have to get gold to the railhead. What do you have to work with? There's probably a carriage maker and wheelwright in town, if not actually on the mining company's payroll. The best source of armor is probably an old, clapped out mining steam engine (little choo choos). Looks like this -


So how do you mount a turret, when most were fitted with ball races?  Turn a (lighter than a wagon) carriage wheel and axle on end, then hang that drum of locomotive boilerplate on it.

The main gold storage box can be an armoured pannier under the frame, further lowering the CG.


Gold mines produce a rough product called a Doré bar. This is not an ice cream dessert but a semi-pure alloy of gold and silver (typically about 80 percent pure gold and weighing up to 25 kgs). The gold is then sent to a refinery, where it is refined into gold of different forms and purity.

For purposes of this production, we'll assume the standard wagon load is one half ton (US short), or twenty 50 pound Doré bars (containing 12,800 ozs of gold and 3,200 ozs of silver). That's roughly $256,000 of gold and $3,200 of silver (if they were pure) in 1885 exchange rates. Assuming dross & imperfections, maybe $250,000 all told?

According to the United States Mint, a standard gold bar measures 7 x 3 5/8 x 1 3/4 inches & weights about 25 pounds. So a 50 lb Doré bar would be roughly 7 x 3 5/8 x 3 1/2, more or less? A stack of 3 x 3 bars would still be less than one cubic foot, so 50 bars would probably fit within a 50 cubic foot storage area.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:11:16 AM by Story »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 11:26:05 AM »
One thing you should note is that while elevation is important in the mountains, so is depression of your Gatling gun.  You do not want to be parked awkardly and unable to depress your main armament to engage the baddies crawling in close towards you.   To enable a large depression, you will need a taller turret roof, particularly with a gravity feed magazine on top of the Gatling gun.  You could design the turret with a small penthouse on it's roof to allow it to depress deep enough.

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2017, 02:59:17 PM »
If the Gatling was fed from either the left or right side, that'd be a no-brainer but being limited to top feeding sets the minimum distance from the top of the Gatling's receiver to the bottom of the turret roof in stone (elevation requirements trump depression requirements). So the best option is the Accles drum (see http://www.forgottenweapons.com/gatling-gun-feeding-mechanisms/) and just like with tanks, there'd be a dead-zone where the main armament just can't depress low enough to cover.
(This sorta kinda illustrates the cramped turret conditions - pretend the rectangle is the turret walls & roof).
A bit of negative depression *can* be achieved, but that's limited again by where the edges of the box body lie.

Engaging close targets zipping from rock to rock with a ponderously swinging Gatling is also a huge temptation to waste ammo.

See the firing ports? That's for hombres with .44 Winchesters to deal with short-range targets.

Tactical post-script: the most likely time they'd be attacked would be heading out with a load of dure from the mine to the town, which is a downhill trip. Right?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:34:11 PM by Story »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2017, 06:13:02 PM »
A domed roof, even if only slightly, would significantly improved the angle of depression.
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Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2017, 08:46:12 PM »
A domed roof, even if only slightly, would significantly improved the angle of depression.

True.

How would you fashion a domed roof at the mine?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 10:12:35 PM »
heat the circular piece of steel up and then pound it into a domed shape (alternatively, heat it up to where it's soft and pile a lot of rocks in the center to dome it out)?  It would be crude, but it would work.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 10:55:04 PM »
A domed roof, even if only slightly, would significantly improved the angle of depression.

True.

How would you fashion a domed roof at the mine?

Any sizeable mine of the era would have a blacksmith, so elmayerle's first option is most likely, as there'd also be a fair bit of steel plate around, too.

However, another option would be the funnel below the industrial sifting machine (this was where the gold/other heavy particles were sorted from the lighter soil). The funnels could be rectangular, ovoid or circular, so we could presume the mine had a circular funnel which could be cut to size by the blacksmith, who could fit a piece of circular plate over the hole at the top.

Or, of course, the whole thing could have been built elsewhere (the nearest large town or city, for example) for regular use by the mine.
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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 02:50:53 AM »
A domed roof, even if only slightly, would significantly improved the angle of depression.

Need to find a Kugelblitz turret :P
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Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2017, 03:28:51 AM »
of course, the whole thing could have been built elsewhere (the nearest large town or city, for example) for regular use by the mine.


If we're hive-minding like we're writing a hyper-realistic movie/HBO TV script I'm thinking everything would have been done on the job site (even the Police Gatling(s) would have been part of the perimeter protection). Working off-site would have increased the likelihood of blowing OPSEC.

As for the turret roof, scroll back to the illustration of the steam engine cannibalization suggestion - I'd thought that the engine might have lost another part. Could be too heavy, tho - isn't that generally a cast iron part?


So, glad we're all holding hands kumbayah for this before I started any serious cutting of plastic. From the parts box came another $1 score & so we're up to the Mk IV version.


Mk III placed the turret over/past the rear axle, which throws off the center of gravity with by about four or five 'units of weight' (the turret & turret mount, the police gatling, the gunner and the gatling's ammunition). Just... no.  Also, Achmed the perpetually angry A-rab drafted to illustrate the crew/gun port firing positions (more stable anyways, when firing from a moving vehicle).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 04:16:26 AM by Story »

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2017, 03:57:26 AM »
Turret & armament mount restated - essentially this sort of arrangement, but for a 150-200 lb Gatling instead of a 23lb M60

Just a 1/2" iron bar run through the Gatling's existing elevation mount, fixed to two V-supports of iron bar which are bolted to the turret roof (or carriage wheel spokes).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 03:59:10 AM by Story »

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 04:20:58 AM »
If you want more localised headroom, a frustum (truncated cone, including one that is biased towards the front of back of the turret diameter) or a "bishop's mitre" turret (RR armoured car) where the sides are cut down and the front and back are taller, would be easy for people to make from sheet metal and a compass. Boilermakers and blacksmiths would easily know how to do it.

Now there is also historical precedent for having the gun opening be rather open, and maybe adding a shield out front  to close it off if the feed arrangement is difficult to keep inside a low height turret. Think M113 ACAV turret with the larger opening needed to manage the 50 cal feed box covered by a shield that permits both a limited traverse without moving the turret and is fixed in elevation so that elevating the gun does not expose more of the gap under the shield. A lot of variation on that theme can be easily made at a mine.

Paul

Offline Story

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Re: The War Wagon (25mm scale)
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 11:32:37 AM »
I've been reading reviews of Clair Huffaker's BADMAN (the original novel, which some reviews opine is a better story than the movie).

Quote
The target is “Old Ironsides,” a steel-reinforced stagecoach hauling a $300,000 load of gold dust from the Black Hills for mine owner Chunk Holiday.  

The heist is plotted as carefully as one of Parker’s modern-day scores in the Richard Stark books.  The mastermind of the robbery, Snyder, incites an attack by Sioux to draw off Old Ironsides’ escort of heavily armed, mounted guards.  Once the horsemen are diverted, the robbers further isolate the coach by blowing up a bridge after the vehicle crosses.  Then the driver and the guards in the coach are spooked by a fake tree laid across the road by the robbers; fearing a collision, they all jump out, abandoning the vehicle.  Further down the road, as the runaway coach reaches an abutment, the weakened trestles underneath collapse under its weight.  The vehicle plummets into the valley below, where the robbers relieve it of the gold dust.


Escorts we haven't talked about, because putting a ponderous albeit armed-and-armored target on the road by itself is folly. Three four-man groups sounds about right, with an advance (#1) followed by a vanguard (#2) and a rear guard (#3). As the convoy travels down to the town, #1 would move fast to a key piece of terrain and hold it until the convoy passed, then take up the rear guard position (#3) allowing that group to move up to the (#2) vanguard position. The vanguard could then move forward at speed to take up the next key piece of terrain. Rinse, lather & repeat until they hit town.