Author Topic: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 136943 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #250 on: May 17, 2017, 05:47:55 PM »

I've often wondered about the redesigned A-4 which Douglas proposed in the early 1960s IIRC.  It was a longer fuselage, with larger wings and a bigger engine.   It would have fixed many of the problems identified with the Scooter for speed, being able to achieve Mach 1 in level flight and would have had an adequate radar for BVR missiles (or room for one).   However, the US Navy wasn't interested and so it died on the vine.


Are you thinking of the A4D-4 proposal:  http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #251 on: May 17, 2017, 06:49:39 PM »
Interesting seems similar in size to the F-11, so why not an F/A-11 instead ;)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #252 on: May 17, 2017, 07:54:50 PM »

I've often wondered about the redesigned A-4 which Douglas proposed in the early 1960s IIRC.  It was a longer fuselage, with larger wings and a bigger engine.   It would have fixed many of the problems identified with the Scooter for speed, being able to achieve Mach 1 in level flight and would have had an adequate radar for BVR missiles (or room for one).   However, the US Navy wasn't interested and so it died on the vine.


Are you thinking of the A4D-4 proposal:  http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf


Yep, that's the one.  Nice looking plane.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #253 on: May 17, 2017, 11:34:28 PM »
Quote
I really can't see a supersonic Scooter

I agree!

I've seen a what-if of an A-4 with a Sea Harrier FA.2 nose  ---- but do you think I can find where   :-X

Would this be it??

Yeah, like that ----- only I thought it was an actual model   :-\  maybe it wasn't   :-X

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #254 on: May 18, 2017, 01:12:10 AM »
elmayerle-
I had a feeling getting the scooter to go faster was a bit of a stretch, but it was interesting to read your reply.
Point being, if there was a way of squeezing in an appropriate radar, could the Skyhawk carry Sparrows? Would it be even practical?
What is the considered opinion on the Skyhawk being a dog-fighter? I know the US Navy used them in DACT, 'Top gun' being a prime example.
Then there is the Lockheed-Martin A-4AR Fightinghawk as used by the Fuerza Aérea Argentina.
Now the thing is, did the US Navy & Marines consider at any time using it as a fighter or only as a bomb truck?
But then again, it is whiffworld so anything is possible.........
Sparrows are rather larger than Sidewinders and need an illuminator on the target, fitting a radar like that on a Skyhawk would be difficult.  Much later in its career, when fully active radar homing AAM's become available, it would be possible but that wouldn't be until at least the late 1980's.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #255 on: May 18, 2017, 11:06:21 AM »
How about an enhanced Skyray?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #256 on: May 18, 2017, 11:16:57 AM »
How about an enhanced Skyray?
Be better to go with a production F5D-1 Skylancer or the proposed F5D-2 with a J79.  Both had the cleanups that would enhance the Skyray plus other improvements.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #257 on: May 18, 2017, 12:17:13 PM »
A silly project I created 10+yr ago: the Pacific Aerospace/Lockheed-Martin F-19 Mosquito II.
"There is no such aircraft as the F-19" was an oft-spoken USAF statement of the 1980s, the words often coming from the stony face of General Lawrence Skantze, then  head of Air Force Systems Command. In fact, until November 1988, the very existence of the 'stealth' fighter had been completely denied, and certainly the position of its secret hideaway and its correct nomenclature. Despite the stone-walling, everybody knew the aircraft was at Tonopah, but few knew what it was called and what it looked like. November 1988 was an exciting time for aviation enthusiasts, for just a week after the announcement of details and release of a photograph of the F-117, the Northrop B-2 'stealth' bomber was rolled out and photographed extensively, further heightening public awareness of 'stealth' concepts.*
However, the "F-19" subject wore on. What was the designation for? The Aurora Mach 5+ SR-71 replacement? A near-space interceptor? A true "Stealth Fighter"? Or something beyond any observer's imagination? The answer was something of an anti-climax. In fact, the F-19 was not 'stealth' per se. Instead it was a largely conventional fighter, designed as a low-cost alternative to the Lockheed-Martin F-16.

DOWNUNDER DESIGNS
The story of the F-19 began in New Zealand, a country not famed for its aviation manufacture industry, in 1982. Designers at the Pacific Aerospace Corporation (PAC) embarked on a replacement design for the able but ageing McDonnell-Douglas A-4K Skyhawk, which had entered Royal New Zealand Air Force service more than a decade earlier. The team purchased a derelict Skyhawk fuselage from the RNZAF in mid 1984 and took to the parts, reengeneering the structure. A new wing of delta planform was designed, and the A-4s horizontal stabilizers were moved to the nose, becoming canard foreplanes. Mockup wings were produced in New Zealand pine and the structure assembled at the company's Hamilton base in early 1985. By March of that year the mockup was painted in a variation of RNZAF camouflage, fitted with various "dummy" weapons. The new wing incorporated wingtip and overwing AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile pylons as well as nine underwing hardpoints. The project was carried out in secret, in a special hangar on the far side of Hamilton's Rukuhia Airport away from the main PAC buildings.
Halfway through 1985 (while the F-19 debate was swirling) a team from McDonnell Douglas arrived in New Zealand, ostensibly to advise the RNZAF who, at the time, were planning the "Kahu" upgrade to the A-4s. Once initial planning for Project Kahu was complete the MD team travelled to Hamilton, as whispers of another Skyhawk development in New Zealand had filtered down through the MD hierarchy. The PAC design team responsible for the aircraft, at that time without a designation, were offered a deal which would see MD become the major subcontractor for the project. The PAC team would travel to MD's "Phantom Works" in the USA to develop and build a prototype for flight-testing. However, despite the considerable benefits to PAC for cooperating with MD, the team turned down the offer.

SKUNK WORKS
As 1986 dawned, a team from Lockheed-Martin's famed "Skunk Works" visited PAC, and inspected the project. The Skunk Works had been working to produce a new advanced light fighter, but to no avail as the "Stealth Fighter" project was taking up valuable working hours and costs. Lockheed made a similar offer to MD's (this would seem strange, but in a rare agreement MD had allowed Lockheed to investigate the Skyhawk replacement project and, if need be, carry it out) which was accepted by PAC.
It was May 1986 when the PAC team and their mockup arrived in the US. All had been cleared by Lockheed's security, and the New Zealand group were transported to Skunk Works' Palmdale facility. The aim was to have the prototype built by August 1987 - difficult but not impossible, considering the PAC team had done all structural designwork years before, with Lockheed only needing to implement the advanced "fly-by-wire" control systems and computers. A version of the Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofan being developed for the YF-22 was to be fitted. Lockheed technicians beat the deadline, finishing the components of "Article 42" (as the prototype was called in company documents) on April 23 1987. The PAC team were transported via road to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, and from there flown by helicopter to Lockheed's Groom Lake facility - the infamous "Area 51", known as Dreamland to employees. (Article 42 was transported by air direct from Palmdale)

SUCCESS IN SECRET
The aircraft was assembled at Groom Lake, and word from Lockheed confirmed that the designation YF-19 was to be applied to the aircraft. YF-19 was painted in a light grey scheme reminiscent of the Have Blue XST (forerunner of the F-117), wearing no national markings, and began taxi trials in June 1987, and the first flight was carried out on August 8 of that year. Pilot for the sortie was Lieutenant-Colonel Lance Anderson, Lockheed test pilot and veteran of the Skunk Works. The aircraft performed better than planned, with a top speed exceeding that of the F-16 and excellent low-speed handling characteristics despite the inherently unstable airframe design. The canard foreplanes resulted in manoevrability better than contemporary fighters, and more impressive than the A-4.
The aircraft turned out to be about three-quarters the price per unit of the F-16, a fact Lockheed advertising and marketing executives capitalised on. However, before the aircraft could be marketed to potential customers, it had to be named. Lockheed wanted a name reflecting the company's history (along the lines of the YF-22 "Lightning II") but the PAC team, without whom the aircraft would not exist, demanded a New Zealand name. For the American technicians and pilots working on the project it was the "Superscooter", but that could not be adopted as an official name. "Sidewinder" was seriously considered, but because of the missile of the same name it was dropped, as was "Sparrow". The name which finally found favour with both Lockheed and PAC was "Mosquito", reflecting the versatile fighter/attack role (the original Mosquito was a successful British WW2 fighter-bomber flown by New Zealanders) and the aircraft's small size.

FIGHTER OF THE FUTURE
Intensive marketing (later compared to Northrop's F-5G/F-20 Tigershark programme) began in 1988, coinciding with the first flight of the B-2 bomber and the unveiling of the F-117. The fact that the public had been lied to about the existence of an F-19 was swept aside by the scorching performance of the aircraft. Paris '89 was its international debut, with an incredible display by the first production F-19 which led to orders from NATO nations (Belgium, Denmark and Switzerland) and India (to be licence-built by HAL Industries).A two-seat trainer, the F-19B, was also developed, in addition to the F-19A single-seater. By 1994 the F-19 Mosquito was in heavy production, and more than 200 aircraft had been built.

NEW ZEALAND A CUSTOMER
In 1998 the government of New Zealand, under Prime Minister Jenny Shipley, began to investigate a Skyhawk replacement. The two aircraft which made the shortlist were the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the F-19. Early 1999 saw the government announce the winner of the contract - the F-19 Mosquito was to be New Zealand's new fighter. The Skyhawks of No. 75 Sqn were to be phased out of service beginning December 12 2001, to be replaced by twelve F-19As and four F-19Bs. The Mosquitos were to be shipped to New Zealand as components and assembled at PAC's Hamilton facility. Four pilots would undergo conversion training on the F-19B at Lockheed-Martin's Burbank, California facility. The first aircraft, F-19A NZ8101 first flew on March 8 2002 at Hamilton, performing a half-hour test flight. A month later '01, in formation with '03 and '11, flew to Ohakea Air Force Base. The new fighters were escorted by a pair of A-4Ks and made a spectacular low-level arrival over the base under a brilliant blue sky.
In August 2002 the final aircraft, F-19B NZ8108, was delivered to Ohakea and the final A-4K was retired to storage at RNZAF Base Woodbourne. Since then the fleet has given stellar service, being popular at airshows at home and amongst friendly countries during international exercises.

TO THE FUTURE
In early 2006 the government of Canada announced that Lockheed-Martin had won the contract to replace the long-serving CF-18 Hornets with a development of the Mosquito, the CF-19. The aircraft is to be implemented over a three year period, with a total of 140 aircraft to be purchased (similar to the original CF-18 fleet). Limited orders have also been placed by Greece, the Netherlands and Poland. It is expected that, within a decade, all NATO member countries currently operating the F-16 will convert to the F-19. A navalised version was being considered for the Royal Navy (the F-19C), but the F-35 JSF was then selected. Currently this is under review due to debate amongst the United States government.

LOOKING BACK
The F-19 Mosquito remains the only military aircraft to be designed in New Zealand, and the most advanced fighter to originate from the Southern Hemisphere. It has more customers than any of Lockheed-Martin's other fighter aircraft (except the F-16) and, for its capabilities, relatively affordable for any government.
The original unnamed mockup of the F-19 design was taken back to New Zealand after trial fits of the electronics package and weapons at Palmdale. Stripped of the expensive equipment, the mockup was placed in storage at Hamilton. An Auckland comapny, responsible for two fibreglass Spitfire replicas, created a similar image of the F-19 from the mockup and this was placed on a stand outside PAC's head office. Another example, depicting a fictional service aircraft ("NZ8118") replaced a de Havilland Vampire on gate guard duty at RNZAF Ohakea.
Article 42, the YF-19, was used to test various paint schemes for customers, and was grounded in September 1994 after a landing gear collapse at RAF Boscombe Down (commonly referred to as the "ASTRA Incident", as some observers mistook the aircraft for the rumoured "Aurora" SR-71 replacement, the ASTRA AV-6). It was flown back to the US in a C-5 Galaxy and put in storage at Burbank. Today it is not known whether the aircraft remains in existence. Some reports from Lockheed-Martin suggest the aircraft is one of two (the other an F-19B) held at Groom Lake for weapons and electronics testing.
The first production F-19, the company demonstrator, still flies for potential customers. It is currently painted in a fictitous Royal Australian Air Force colour scheme.

*This paragraph is from the article "Stealth Aircraft", Airplane magazine issue 1, Orbis Publications 1989

Still have the bits and may yet muster the courage to resume the ridiculous amount of PSR required.
Zac in NZ
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #258 on: May 18, 2017, 05:22:54 PM »
How about an enhanced Skyray?

Would a Skyray/
Quote
enhanced Skyray
be able to operate from the deck of a Majestic class carrier? :-\

M.A.D

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #259 on: May 19, 2017, 12:46:26 AM »
How about an enhanced Skyray?

Would a Skyray/
Quote
enhanced Skyray
be able to operate from the deck of a Majestic class carrier? :-\

M.A.D

Probably not (the Midway's from which they did operate were 200 feet longer) but the RAN & Australia would have been better served by Midway's (later modified Midway's) from the start, although Essex's wouldn't have been a bad, cheaper starting option.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #260 on: June 26, 2017, 02:50:26 AM »
Interesting load out:


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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #261 on: June 27, 2017, 01:49:57 AM »
What mods, would be needed to make the Scooter a fighter? A radar? If so what would be suitable? Armament...Sparrow & Sidewinder or other?
How about making the Fighter Scooter supersonic, an afterburning Avon, reskinned rudder, different intakes for instance.
This idea stemmed from a 'make do and mend' situation the Fuerza Aérea Argentina found themselves in during the Falklands war.
So any comments, suggestions, mild insults, gasps of incredulity, brickbats, whatever they are will be gratefully considered
Ken
Going on the assumption that the basic airframe and wings/tail are retained, there are a few things you could do to improve performance without starting the design from scratch.

- Raise the cockpit and fair into an enlarged avionics deck to fit a larger radar in the nose.
- add F-16-ish radar
- add IRST ball
- General aerodynamic clean-up of new cockpit/avionics deck: Drag reduction, fair in new radar, fair in CFTs, apply area ruling to new configuration, etc.
- Minor structural strengthening: re-skin control surfaces, strengthen brakes and landing gear, strengthen controls and control surface mounts, etc.
- Wire wings to carry 4 x AIM-9s and 4 x AIM-120s plus CL tank
- switch to afterburning F404 or even an F414.

You'd probably end up with a slightly higher speed (just under transonic, I dare say) ability to target and shoot BVR, reasonable legs (from the F404) and remain a good dogfighter with ability to maintain very high energy levels during all flight regimes. (with the F404 it would be near 1:1 thrust ratio at combat weight and greater than 1:1 with the F414).

So, if it could see you far enough away, it could probably kill you with the AIM-120s, closer, a good chance with the AIM-9s and in very close would probably be a good match for many Gen 3-4 fighters with the excess energy capability.

However, it would be vulnerable in that area between the AIM-120 and AIM-9 ranges as it's speed would give the enemy the advantage to engage or not.

In 2nd tier air forces, though, I bet it would be a handful against other similarly aged aircraft and a fair number of newer ones.

Paul

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #262 on: June 27, 2017, 05:21:38 AM »
Interesting load out:





With conventional warheads, would make for a hard hitting strike/anti-shipping configuration for the RAN  :P

M.A.D

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #263 on: June 28, 2017, 01:55:02 AM »
Israeli A-4 with (I believe) Gabriel ASMs:

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #264 on: November 25, 2017, 04:55:59 AM »
What-if 1/48 Hobbycraft RCN A-4CN Sea Eagle





Backstory and more photos here at ARC Air: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm
Work in progress ::

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #265 on: November 25, 2017, 05:03:20 AM »
Nice, albeit heavy load for that Scooter...
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #266 on: December 04, 2017, 06:14:02 AM »
^^^^
Greg  will love these. Sure. :smiley:

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2017, 01:54:02 AM »
I would have kept the standard intakes. 
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Offline exkiwiforces

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #268 on: December 05, 2017, 10:40:04 AM »
What-if 1/48 Hobbycraft RCN A-4CN Sea Eagle





Backstory and more photos here at ARC Air: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm


Its not the silly as it seems fitting two Sea Eagles to the A-4. The some Kiwi's pilots/ techo's, gunnies etc borrowed an inert Harpoon from somewhere after an SENGO with RNZAF HQ said that a Harpoon couldn't be fitted to the A-4 as it was too big during or after the Kahu upgrade and the apparently it fitted quite well to the centre line hard point with room to spare.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »
I would have kept the standard intakes.
Seconded!!  No sense redesigning what doesn't need it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #270 on: January 06, 2018, 05:40:06 AM »
Interesting one that shouldn't be too hard to build
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #271 on: January 11, 2018, 07:33:49 AM »
How about a more standard wing on an A-4. Super Scooter anyone?

A-4-Fast-01
by Big Gimper, on Flickr

A-4-Fast-03
by Big Gimper, on Flickr

Wing from an F-86E. Horizontal stabs from a 1/100 IL-28. Lots of blue idea tape.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #272 on: January 12, 2018, 02:30:26 AM »
 :smiley:
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #273 on: January 12, 2018, 04:46:08 AM »
I'm going with Eurofighter wings and some canards for my Superscooter, but that is inspired! I think I need to get another cheap Italeri 1/72 A-4!
Zac in NZ
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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #274 on: February 25, 2018, 03:20:06 AM »
Anti-shiiping Skyhawk:

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