Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:20:43 AM

Title: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:20:43 AM
Hi folks,

A thread for your Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration.

(http://www.stevenheyenart.com/S%20Heyen%20Whirlwind.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:24:06 AM
To start with, how about some re-engining:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/3b10e321.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/f7786c62.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:24:53 AM
Maybe add a turret:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/Turretww.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:25:43 AM
Or let's assume it stayed in service and got updated:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/superwhirlwindstretched.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: RussC on May 06, 2012, 05:26:45 AM
Carrier version ! RN Whirlwinds' vs. Bismarck.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 06, 2012, 05:29:42 AM
Oh yeah!!!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tsrjoe on July 24, 2012, 03:14:43 AM
Westland's design for a Halford engined 'jet Whirlwind' ...

cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tsrjoe on July 24, 2012, 03:16:43 AM
Hypothetical model of a post war 'Whirlwind float racer' ...

cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on July 24, 2012, 01:15:26 PM
I always thought the Whirlwind would be a very logical reccon platform. It would certainly have room for some good camera gear in that nose and fuselage.

Get some Merlins or Griffons into her, stretch the wings a tad and paint her PRU blue or pink and Bob's your uncle!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on July 26, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
Done a few variations on the theme over the years:

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/WW2%20Soviet/Whirlwind07.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/WW2%20Australasia/Whirlwind05.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/WW2%20RAF/Whirlwind02.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s101/Maverick65au/WW2%20RAF/Whirlwind03.jpg)

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on July 26, 2012, 11:19:08 PM

Two nice profiles made by Mark Jones (BBC) ...

([url]http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww37/jmsfbip/web/190wirlwind.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww37/jmsfbip/web/190wirlwindyank.jpg[/url])


Nice. The canopy looks FW-190 but where did source the new tail from?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 17, 2014, 10:30:13 PM

1/48th Westland Whirlwind. Even I want one of these ....... maybe more, I'd like to see what is would look like with Griffons.


It would've looked like a Westland Welkin ---   

Which was called the Whirlwind Development Fighter until it got a name change for service use.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 18, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Perhaps a short-wing Welkin?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on January 18, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
I believe the proposed navalised Whirlwind was to have been powered with Merlins.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on January 18, 2014, 03:27:32 PM
I believe the proposed navalised Whirlwind was to have been powered with Merlins.
Perfect candidate for a brace of Bristol Centaurus I would think :)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 18, 2014, 10:43:22 PM
Perhaps a short-wing Welkin?

Yes --

An article I've read said that the Welkin would only go so fast, no matter how much power was applied.  This was attributed to the thick short-chord wing but Westland' had a solution.  Which was to increase the chord by 20%.  I bought an extra CMR Welkin Mk.II to do just that.  One day I'll get around to building it --  :-X
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 18, 2014, 10:46:13 PM
I believe the proposed navalised Whirlwind was to have been powered with Merlins.
Perfect candidate for a brace of Bristol Centaurus I would think :)

I would say not on a Whirlwind for either engine, airframe is much too small. BTW,  I've got a couple of books on Westland and I've not found anything related to a navalized Whirlwind --
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on January 19, 2014, 01:26:28 AM
The Whirlwind's Peregrine's only put out 885 hp so you could get more power for less weight, at the cost of more drag, by fitting late model Perseus radials. This would have been idea for the ground attack role the Whirlwind was actually doing, since air-cooled radials are less vulnerable to small calibre hits on the cooling system than water-cooled engines.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 19, 2014, 02:33:08 AM
I believe the proposed navalised Whirlwind was to have been powered with Merlins.
Perfect candidate for a brace of Bristol Centaurus I would think :)

I would say not on a Whirlwind for either engine, airframe is much too small. BTW,  I've got a couple of books on Westland and I've not found anything related to a navalized Whirlwind --

Another reason why the Whirlwind wouldn't be considered for a Naval aircraft, the whole fuselage aft of the cockpit was made from magnezium alloy.  At the time of the Whirlwind concept, magnezium was a non-strategic material
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 19, 2014, 03:41:53 AM
I believe the proposed navalised Whirlwind was to have been powered with Merlins.
Perfect candidate for a brace of Bristol Centaurus I would think :)


May I suggest…

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/3b10e321.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 19, 2014, 03:48:37 AM
Some pics I came across a while back of different armament trials for the Westland Whirlwind:

12 x 0.303:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/scan0004.jpg)

1 x 37mm cannon:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/scan0003.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/scan0005.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/scan0006.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 19, 2014, 03:51:59 AM
And if you are really keen:  http://www.whirlwindfighterproject.org (http://www.whirlwindfighterproject.org)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 19, 2014, 05:00:15 AM
That 37 mm cannon nose is availabe in resin to convert the Airfix Whirlwind.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: perttime on January 19, 2014, 05:47:22 AM
Or let's assume it stayed in service and got updated:
Some are convinced that the Whirlwind could have handled Merlins. Griffons might take pretty serious updating  ???
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 19, 2014, 05:50:23 AM
I think we need to move some of the latest replys in the 'Trumpeter' thread to here  ---- Mod's - please
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 19, 2014, 05:52:28 AM
IMHO, a Merlin or Griffon Whirlwind would/should really look like this
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 19, 2014, 05:53:50 AM
I think we need to move some of the latest replys in the 'Trumpeter' thread to here  ---- Mod's - please

Done.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on January 20, 2014, 12:58:48 AM
The Whirlwind was designed around the Peregrines & could not easily be changed.

That said Petter & his design team at Westland wanted to redesign the fighter to take Merlins but the War Ministry vetoed the project because, at the time, it needed its entire Merlin production for Spitfires & Hurricanes. They, also, vetoed development of the Peregrine because it wanted Rolls Royce to concentrate its energy on developing the Merlin.

So, 2 main options I see here;

1) What if Packard began producing Merlins much earlier & there were sufficient to allow development of a Merlin powered Whirlwind, or
2) Packard production of the Merlin allowed RR time & resources to further develop the Peregrine & iron out its faults.

Whirlwind pilots, apparently loved the plane & one of their comments was that it was under-appreciated because its engine reliability & performance issues all stemmed from a lack of development opportunities which were afforded to the Spitfire & other aircraft.

So, what would a Whirlwind have looked like with a Mk. XX Peregrine, longer range internal fuel tankage (plus drop tanks) & redesigned wing to maintain performance whilst carrying a greater ordnance load?

:icon_music:

Guy
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: perttime on January 20, 2014, 01:39:15 AM
From a thread on keypublishing  ;D

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 20, 2014, 02:27:43 AM
([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/3b10e321.jpg[/url])

This is a great idea!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on January 20, 2014, 03:27:36 AM
The 37mm cannon is a 20mm and the only real heavy gun nose concept was for a pair of 40mm.
The bulged nose shown was a redesign for the four 20mm with larger ammo supply.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 26, 2014, 06:12:07 AM
Random idea:  Whirlwind in this scheme:

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/your-completed-kits/51791d1299776453t-american-spifire-eagle-squadron-american-spit.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on July 26, 2014, 09:23:57 PM
I can't help wondering if the Pegasus, if developed to its full potential (I remember reading somewhere that the RR design team thought they just about had the bugs ironed out), would have been a good engine for a series of smaller, light-weight fighters & bombers for primary use in SEAC?

Or if a small, short-stroke multi-row radial may have made the Whirlwind more suitable for SEAC operations?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2014, 03:02:18 AM
It depends.  What would you believe are the critical features for aero engines in SEAC operations?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on July 27, 2014, 03:59:35 AM
If you mean the Peregrine (Pegasus was a Bristol radial) it had it's bugs worked out, which one
would hope being as it was the ultimate development of the F/Kestrel which had been around
since the 1920s. It also used the early experience with the Merlin design.

The Peregrine had smaller displacement, and thus lower power, but really wasn't much smaller
than the single-stage series Merlins, indeed it was actually longer, and only slightly narrower
and lower in height. The lower output canceled any advantage from the lower weight.

The problem is that it was only required for a single aircraft, the Whirlwind, and keeping it
in production would impact production capacity for the Merlin, which was in high demand
for multiple types.

Going lightweight against the Japanese would be playing their game, and they had already
proven they were the masters in that realm. The heavier aircraft used by the Allies were to
the Allies advantage once the tactics were developed to counter the Japanese machines.
Flying faster, hitting harder and being able to engage or break-off at will were far more
important than being able to turn with a Ki 43.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on July 27, 2014, 09:34:33 PM
@ jcf

Yes, I did mean Peregrine - bird of prey, flying horse, what's the difference? ???

The Rolls Royce Pegasus is a turbofan used to power the Harrier family of aircraft.

Maybe I'm way off but just because it was old doesn't mean that there wasn't still development potential in the design, just maybe not as much as the Merlin. Maybe by finding a way to lighten it some more to give it better power to weight.

You also seem to be falling into the trap of "it worked this way, so this is the only way it will work" mentality.

Yes, the Japanese were masters at light-weight, agile air combat but the small, light aircraft pitted against them at the beginning of the war were underpowered for what weight they had. If similarly light designs had been available with more powerful engines Allied pilots may well have become the masters of light-weight, agile air combat & the whole history of the Pacific air war may have been totally different.

@ Greg

No idea, really, although ease of maintenance comes to mind - which is why I suggested a radial option.

I was kind of thinking loosely along the lines of the last paragraph in my answer to jcf re: the possible scenario.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on July 28, 2014, 12:53:27 AM
@ Old Wombat, don't presume to tell me what my mentality is, you don't know me.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 28, 2014, 02:24:43 AM
Yes, the Japanese were masters at light-weight, agile air combat but the small, light aircraft pitted against them at the beginning of the war were underpowered for what weight they had. If similarly light designs had been available with more powerful engines Allied pilots may well have become the masters of light-weight, agile air combat & the whole history of the Pacific air war may have been totally different.

True, history would be different which does make for an interesting scenario.  Though, to inject a does of reality into here (sorry - ignore if need be), one does not win by adopting the tactics and strategies of ones opponents but by using one's own - in other words, you play to your own strengths, not that of the opponent.  In this case, around the time we are considering, the Japanese were arguably the world masters at dogfighting in the traditional sense and they hard the equipment to match.  To try to go up against this was fraught with danger.

Anyway, enough of that.  Let's get back to our 'verse where all this reality doesn't confine us.  A slightly different scenario whereby the Whirlwind is kept in service with its Peregrine engines, would be to have it given a second seat and a radar.  That way it could operate as a night fighter.

Alternatively - and this is more fun - what about we turn the Whirlwind into an un-armed racer.  Maybe the war is somehow avoided and the aircraft is developed as a followup contender to the de Havilland DH.88 series?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: perttime on July 28, 2014, 02:49:47 AM
Second crew member and radar for the Whirlwind?
The Whirlwind was pretty small for a twin.
First, you'd have to find a place to put the additional items. Radar probably shouldn't go in the nose, because the concentrated firepower was one of its main assets.
Then you'd have to cope with increased landing speeds, in an aircraft that landed pretty hot as it was. More weight = higher stall speed.

Racer? Sounds like fun!
(I think there's a civilian GB going on...)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on July 28, 2014, 04:45:57 AM
Dump the Peregrines and give it a single two-stage Merlin, then a developed version with
a Griffon.

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on July 28, 2014, 06:37:38 AM
Alternatively - and this is more fun - what about we turn the Whirlwind into an un-armed racer.  Maybe the war is somehow avoided and the aircraft is developed as a followup contender to the de Havilland DH.88 series?

IIRC, the Whirlwind that Westland used as a company hack, was entered in a couple of races -- just need to find where I read that  ---
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 28, 2014, 09:12:19 AM
Second crew member and radar for the Whirlwind?
The Whirlwind was pretty small for a twin.
First, you'd have to find a place to put the additional items. Radar probably shouldn't go in the nose, because the concentrated firepower was one of its main assets.
Then you'd have to cope with increased landing speeds, in an aircraft that landed pretty hot as it was. More weight = higher stall speed.

Racer? Sounds like fun!
(I think there's a civilian GB going on...)

The biggest problem would be where do you put the radar operator?  The fuselage is pretty small and there isn't much room in it behind the pilot.  It's where the existing radio and oxygen tanks are.   The radar set would have be put somewhere but the aerials would be on the wings not nose.

Essentially you'd have to redesign the aircraft to accommodate the radar operator, the radar set, batteries, etc.  You'd end up with something the size of the Wellkin, without the wingspan.   

The Wellkin was a bit of a problem child for Westland's.  It's major problem was that it's cruising speed was close to it's critical Mach number and so any time it tried to dive or increase it's speed at altitude, it'd suffer compressibility problems.   Shortening the wing would have helped somewhat but not much, reducing it's operating altitude would also help but as it had been designed from the outset as a high-altitude fighter, that would have been rather pointless.   

Using the Wellkin fuselage on wings (although larger) of the type used on the Whirlwind and keeping it a low-medium night fighter would have worked.  It would have overcome most of the criticisms and produced most of the improvements people here are suggesting - larger fuselage, second crewman, radar, Merlin engines, etc.   It wouldn't be a Whirlwind though, and it would have been 2-3 years later into service, IMHO.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Flyer on July 28, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
Alternatively - and this is more fun - what about we turn the Whirlwind into an un-armed racer.  Maybe the war is somehow avoided and the aircraft is developed as a followup contender to the de Havilland DH.88 series?
That is a great idea :D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 28, 2014, 06:01:17 PM
I wonder...would a torpedo be too much?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on July 28, 2014, 09:59:49 PM
Second crew member and radar for the Whirlwind?
The Whirlwind was pretty small for a twin.
First, you'd have to find a place to put the additional items. Radar probably shouldn't go in the nose, because the concentrated firepower was one of its main assets.
Then you'd have to cope with increased landing speeds, in an aircraft that landed pretty hot as it was. More weight = higher stall speed.

Racer? Sounds like fun!
(I think there's a civilian GB going on...)

The biggest problem would be where do you put the radar operator?  The fuselage is pretty small and there isn't much room in it behind the pilot.  It's where the existing radio and oxygen tanks are.   The radar set would have be put somewhere but the aerials would be on the wings not nose.

Essentially you'd have to redesign the aircraft to accommodate the radar operator, the radar set, batteries, etc.  You'd end up with something the size of the Wellkin, without the wingspan.   

The Wellkin was a bit of a problem child for Westland's.  It's major problem was that it's cruising speed was close to it's critical Mach number and so any time it tried to dive or increase it's speed at altitude, it'd suffer compressibility problems.   Shortening the wing would have helped somewhat but not much, reducing it's operating altitude would also help but as it had been designed from the outset as a high-altitude fighter, that would have been rather pointless.   

Using the Wellkin fuselage on wings (although larger) of the type used on the Whirlwind and keeping it a low-medium night fighter would have worked.  It would have overcome most of the criticisms and produced most of the improvements people here are suggesting - larger fuselage, second crewman, radar, Merlin engines, etc.   It wouldn't be a Whirlwind though, and it would have been 2-3 years later into service, IMHO.

Before the Welkin got it's name, it was referred to as the 'Whirlwind Development Fighter'.  It's wing was it's downfall but Westland had a solution for it, which was to increase the chord length by 20%.  And initially it wasn't a high altitude fighter, the parameters got changed so it became that.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 28, 2014, 10:06:04 PM
I wonder...would a torpedo be too much?

18 inch Mark XII Torpedo - Weight - 1,548 lb
Length: 16 ft 3 in

Westland Whirlwind - 2 x 250lb bombs
Length: 32 ft 3 in


Might be a bit of a stretch.  Perhaps with RATO and a really long runway?  It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 29, 2014, 02:01:15 AM
It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.

Actually, that might work - maybe as a last ditch effort as Great Britain collapses...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 29, 2014, 08:46:57 AM
It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.

Actually, that might work - maybe as a last ditch effort as Great Britain collapses...

Remember, the CofG of the torpedo would have to be under the CoG of the aircraft so it would be mounted quite forward, projecting in front of the nose by quite a way.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on July 29, 2014, 03:38:45 PM
Feb 1942 RAN FAA Westland Cyclone (navalised, Merlin powered Whirlwind) Battle of Timor Sea where a British task force engaged and destroyed the Japanese carrier fleet. ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on July 30, 2014, 01:03:00 AM
It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.

Actually, that might work - maybe as a last ditch effort as Great Britain collapses...

Remember, the CofG of the torpedo would have to be under the CoG of the aircraft so it would be mounted quite forward, projecting in front of the nose by quite a way.
*snicker* I could see that generating some ribald comments.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on July 30, 2014, 01:15:34 AM
Summat to think about, F.9/37 #1 was Taurus powered and had a top speed over 350 mph,
F.9/37 #2 was Peregrine powered and could barely break 330.

So perhaps a developed Taurus for Whirlwind?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on July 30, 2014, 06:25:13 AM
Or if a small, short-stroke multi-row radial may have made the Whirlwind more suitable for SEAC operations?

The Taurus would fit for this idea, as its diameter of 46.25" is only a few inches more than the RR Peregrine's height.

Of course, if you're willing to go American for your engines.

The Wright R-1820 Cyclone is a bit too large at 54.25" diameter but is about 50kg lighter & puts out about the same power.

Australian production radial Whirlwinds could have gone for the P&W R-1830 Twin Wasp, diameter 48.03" & much better power output, as we were already producing them for the Wirraway, Boomerang & Beaufort.


**Note: All of the radials are heavier than the Peregrine, the Taurus by almost 70kg, the Cyclone by about 20kg & the Twin Wasp by about 40kg.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 30, 2014, 10:16:47 AM
It might just get into the air but it wouldn't be going anywhere very fast IMO.  It'd look like those Fw190s with a torpedo underneath.  Would more than likely need a lengthened tailwheel and much stronger undercarriage.

Actually, that might work - maybe as a last ditch effort as Great Britain collapses...

Remember, the CofG of the torpedo would have to be under the CoG of the aircraft so it would be mounted quite forward, projecting in front of the nose by quite a way.
*snicker* I could see that generating some ribald comments.

As long as some wag doesn't paint the torpedo pink, it should be OK.  ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 30, 2014, 10:26:43 AM
Or if a small, short-stroke multi-row radial may have made the Whirlwind more suitable for SEAC operations?

The Taurus would fit for this idea, as its diameter of 46.25" is only a few inches more than the RR Peregrine's height.

Of course, if you're willing to go American for your engines.

The Wright R-1820 Cyclone is a bit too large at 54.25" diameter but is about 50kg lighter & puts out about the same power.

Australian production radial Whirlwinds could have gone for the P&W R-1830 Twin Wasp, diameter 48.03" & much better power output, as we were already producing them for the Wirraway, Boomerang & Beaufort.

Post 1942 you could replace the R-1830 with R-2000s, for more power for basically the same dimensions.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on March 09, 2015, 06:34:48 AM
Doing some web surfing caused me to encounter the following article.
http://www.airvectors.net/avwhirl.html (http://www.airvectors.net/avwhirl.html)
Nice descriptions of Westland projects in the 30's.
The interesting part was at the very end of the article the author mentioned seeing a single engine assymetric "Singlewind" at a model show. So he goes on to suggest "what ifs" of a P-38 style version, an F-82 Zwilling version and a P&W Wasp engined version.
Not often does an author wander into "whiffland" in a serious article. Nice surprise.
Now the questions are; Has anyone built one of these? and why didn't anyone consider P&W or Wright radials for the Whirlwind in RW? (It would have put the "whirl" in Whirlwind!)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2015, 04:48:09 AM
Not saying this is accurate or even feasible, but how about an Alison powered Whirlwind:

(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/whirlwind-P40.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on December 25, 2015, 06:30:36 AM
Use early mark P-38 cowlings instead for a more likely look.

Or if you wanna go super sleek, YP-38 stylie.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pEI86LM6SB8/T4tp4iM32OI/AAAAAAAANzE/h_40LAEFX50/s1600/YP-38+Lightning+2.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on August 06, 2018, 08:27:19 PM
Found on Facebook.

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38462762_830690267137206_1888399439609987072_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=6b66da0b1718c03d3e6863bbe5853b60&oe=5BCBF4EC)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 09, 2018, 07:22:46 PM
Awesome, imagine the floatplane version flying off HMS Prince Of Wales  ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on August 10, 2018, 02:02:55 AM
The floatplane is an interesting idea, however it would need larger, longer floats.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on August 10, 2018, 03:08:43 AM
The floatplane is an interesting idea, however it would need larger, longer floats.

In 1/72, perhaps the floats from a E16A1 Zuiun? The take-off weights are similar - 10,000 lb for the Zuiun,  11,445 lb for the Whirlwind. (1/48 would be tricker ... is there a kit in this scale other than that of  Raccoon Models?)

Or maybe use two Rufe main floats?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2018, 06:18:52 AM
Cool
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on August 11, 2018, 09:01:05 AM
Well I'm making these for a Blenheim (actually a Bolingbroke). It's max T.O.W. is 14,400 lbs so just a tad big, but they could be reduced in size even more than what I am doing to them
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 14, 2019, 11:13:13 PM
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind and gets it in service, much earlier, in much greater numbers?

My thinking is with production already underway with a proven and reliable engine, the design would be much more likely to be perfected, mass produced, then improved.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 16, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind ... "
???

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 16, 2019, 05:26:58 AM
How about the RAF goes for the original, lighter, Kestrel powered Whilwind ... "
???

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.

Are there any photos or drawings of the twin tail version Jon ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 17, 2019, 01:52:46 AM
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/9BB7E78E-B40D-4500-8713-766ECB09C25E_zpsrbqrd4nu.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 17, 2019, 03:38:17 AM

The original twin-tailed P.9 was to be powered by the Kestrel K.26, which was just the
developmental designation of what was later named the Peregrine.


Are there any photos or drawings of the twin tail version Jon ?


Here ya go, 3-view. Note that it's not simply a twin-tailed Whirlwind.

(http://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-zKrDzKx/0/3fe6aad5/O/WESTLAND_P9_01.png)

(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/england/west_whirlwind.gif)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 17, 2019, 03:42:57 AM
The drawing Greg posted shows it as twin-tailed Whirlwind, which the 3-view shows
as not being the case. The twin tail was abandoned at the same time that the fuselage
was deepened and the inner wing panels straightened at the trailing edge for the
Fowler flaps.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 17, 2019, 03:58:42 AM
Cheers Jon/Greg, it looks very interesting  :smiley:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 17, 2019, 06:53:57 PM
Bugger, now I need to find the reference.  I am trying to remember where I read it but the gist was the original P.9 concept had Kestrels and they were replaced with K26/Peregrine as weight increased from added equipment and specification changes.

I have only read this in one place (and cant remember where) so it may not be the case and the author could have been confusing the K26 with the 650hp Kestrel. 


Not wedded to the idea at all but if it was the case that there was a 650hp Kestrel powered design, it could have been available earlier and not suffered the development issues of the actual adopted design.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 18, 2019, 05:55:43 AM
Buttler BSP Vol. 3 Fighters & Bombers 1935 - 1950, states explicitly
that the Kestrel K.26 (Peregrine) was picked at the beginning.
The Putnam Westland Aircraft since 1915, and Goulding's Interceptor,
state the same.

The Kestrel XVI would most likely be the best match fotr your idea:
670 hp at 2,225 rpm for takeoff
690 hp at 2,600 rpm at 11,000 ft (continuous power, medium supercharged))
745 hp at 3,000 rpm at 14,500 ft (Max emergency power, fully supercharged))
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 18, 2019, 07:25:20 PM
Buttler BSP Vol. 3 Fighters & Bombers 1935 - 1950, states explicitly
that the Kestrel K.26 (Peregrine) was picked at the beginning.
The Putnam Westland Aircraft since 1915, and Goulding's Interceptor,
state the same.

The Kestrel XVI would most likely be the best match fotr your idea:
670 hp at 2,225 rpm for takeoff
690 hp at 2,600 rpm at 11,000 ft (continuous power, medium supercharged))
745 hp at 3,000 rpm at 14,500 ft (Max emergency power, fully supercharged))

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 19, 2019, 02:35:53 AM
Buttler also mentions that consideration had been given to totally redesigning the Kestrel, going
beyond the Merlin-like features added to make the Peregrine, this was passed on as it would
have required more redesign of the P.9 and added to the overall delay. What the changes
would have been he doesn't say, to me it gives rise to visions of an even slimmer installation
something along the lines of the Merlin 130/131 installation as used on the DH Hornet.

Goulding mentions that a Dewotine D.510 was borrowed by the RAF to explore the possibilities
of the engine mounted cannon concept, and that Rolls-Royce offered to create a moteur canon
version of the Kestrel, giving the possibility of a six gunned P.9/Whirlwind.
 ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on April 19, 2019, 06:23:56 AM
... Rolls-Royce offered to create a moteur canon
version of the Kestrel, giving the possibility of a six gunned P.9/Whirlwind.
 ;D

Ooo, that gives all kinds of late '30s RAF options. Cheers Jon  :smiley:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 19, 2019, 08:45:53 PM
Or a three gun, 20mm in each engine and a Molins gun in the nose.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 19, 2019, 10:52:37 PM

Goulding mentions that a Dewotine D.510 was borrowed by the RAF to explore the possibilities
of the engine mounted cannon concept, and that Rolls-Royce offered to create a moteur canon
version of the Kestrel, giving the possibility of a six gunned P.9/Whirlwind.
 ;D

I'd imagine the spinners would have to be positioned a bit higher on the nacelles if you wanted to convert a Whirlwind like that. Hmm, think on that I will ---- Is there any info on which manufacturer would have produced the cannon Jon?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2020, 03:51:05 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4062/4352114992_ec8d0388c1_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2020, 03:53:00 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8705/16724098644_6a46a174bb_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 08, 2020, 03:39:24 AM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ChvqGZrlXTw/U4OE0hNtmLI/AAAAAAAAAoY/dZ-YdnskVLg/s1600/Different.JPG)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 08, 2022, 03:16:41 AM
Use early mark P-38 cowlings instead for a more likely look.

Or if you wanna go super sleek, YP-38 stylie.

([url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pEI86LM6SB8/T4tp4iM32OI/AAAAAAAANzE/h_40LAEFX50/s1600/YP-38+Lightning+2.jpg[/url])


Taking this idea further, what if in the late 30s, with the prospect of RR Merlins being in short supply, someone (let's say Fairey) negotiate a licence to produce the Allison V-1710 in the UK as a source for additional V-12s beyond the RR Merlin.  Such an engine could be used on the Whirlwind instead of the RR Peregrine.  Perhaps then go one step further and add the turbosuperchargers to the sides of the nacelles (perhaps with intercoolers buried in the wing along with the radiators).

Of course, having UK produced Allison V-1710s also offers possibilities for other fighters to be given the option... ;)