Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 905541 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1850 on: August 22, 2018, 06:53:53 AM »
Thanks folks! Evan, it does sound like contoured inlets is the simplest way to go.

I know this is kind of odd.  Back in 2012 you did a series of profiles on the so-called Supermarine Spiteful.  Is there any chance you could do a three view, or at least provide the dimensions, especially wingspan?


Kim: Did you mean this one? http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg31443#msg31443

As I recall, I had in mind an evolution akin to that of the RW Spiteful (other than beginning with a Buzzard engine). In the production version with the Griffon, dimensions would have been identical to the RW Spiteful.

BTW: My entry into the Anachronistic GB: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8080.msg144296#msg144296
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 06:59:32 AM by apophenia »
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1851 on: August 22, 2018, 11:13:47 AM »
Again, thanks.  I was thinking of a different direction.  From what I saw and caught my interest I thought first of a smaller and somewhat simplified version of the Spitfire, for export or license building.  This would be similar in concept to the Curtiss CW-21 and 75H, North American's P-64, and Vultee's P-66. 
From what I understand, the Spitfire's was an aerodynamic work of art, but difficult to make and therefore expensive.  When the 300 was first built in 1936, it was assumed that a war was coming, but no one knew when, or was sure who was going to be fighting, and on what side.  Also, no one imagined the length or scope of the war.  The Spitfire wing was was adequate for batches of 100 or so.   However, when when the war began and grew, it was suddenly as many as airplanes as you can make, as fast as you can make them.  This is why supermarine began looking for a simpler wing.  So, that's my idea, a cheaper alternative to the Spit, developed in parallel.  I still may do it. 
However, why the Buzzard engine?  This was developed in the 20s, and didn't get much interest even then.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1852 on: August 23, 2018, 03:12:39 AM »
I like your simplified Spitfire concept ... especially as a CW-21 analogue! Would you be retaining some commonality or is this a clean-sheet design?

On the RW Spiteful, it seems to me that Joe Smith got himself into trouble with the production-version laminar-flow wings. For your concept, would a more conventional airfoil would be acceptable?

... However, why the Buzzard engine?  This was developed in the 20s, and didn't get much interest even then.

The Buzzard engine for my ur-Spiteful was just a stand-in until the similarly-sized Griffon was flight-worthy. I suppose, the prototype's powerplant might just have well been a de-tuned 'R' engine.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1853 on: August 24, 2018, 06:57:16 AM »
Understand, this is just riffing off your ideas and artwork.  The CW-21 is the outlier here, the others were either decontented fighters or single seat versions of what then were called combat trainers.  I was thinking of narrowing the wing chord, and chopping the fuselage aft of the canopy, removing the fixed clear section.  I'd also simplify the wing curves somewhat,  along the lines of the late Spit wings.  Maybe say the later marks having fixed gear like the Miles M20.  Just my musings.

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1854 on: August 25, 2018, 03:10:43 AM »
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1855 on: August 25, 2018, 05:28:36 AM »
Kim: Interesting stuff. So, shortened fuselage and simplified wing curves à la the Spitfire F.21. I like it.

An alternative approach to the wing design would be retaining the eliptical trailing edge but replacing the semi-eliptical leading edge with a straight edge (akin to the Seversky). Alternatively, 'square off' the wings - like the Spiteful but using a conventional airfoil. The Spiteful's 210 sq ft wing area was quite abit smaller than the Spit's 242 sq ft ... but still much bigger than the Bf 109E's 174 sq ft.

Jon: Thanks for that. I'd forgotten about the twin J85 installation proposal. It would have made good use out of those DHC-3 STOL experiments.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1856 on: August 25, 2018, 08:56:52 AM »
Good idea on the leading edge.  That would be my guess where all the hard work is.  There was a Supermarine design called the Model 333 that started out as a Fairey Firefly competitor.  It had a simplified wing, although designed for wing folding.  It looks somewhat along what I think you envision, although it had a gull wing that for the life of me seemed superflous.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1857 on: August 26, 2018, 07:08:30 AM »
Kim: My guess on the Type 333's reversed gull was Supermarine obsessing on the mountains of data gleaned from wind tunnel tests on R-R's He 70. The question is: were the added manufacturing headaches worth the aerodynamic benefits?

And now on to another unbuilt project ...

'Swords' into Claymores - the Canadair CL-76

For some time, I've been curious about what the Canadair CL-76 project would have looked like if built.

Canadair had hoped to produce a number of evolved CL-13 Sabre designs. Among these unbuilt projects were the CL-13G 2-seat trainer (akin to North American's TF-86F) and the CL-13J with a simplified Bristol afterburner (as compared with the afterburner originally planned for the CL-13C). Later, with the writing on the wall for further 'Sword' production, Canadair made more radical plans.

The 1958 CL-76 project was intended to produce a 2-seat NATO attack aircraft using the maximum number of F-86 and CL-13 components. There were three variants of the proposed CL-76. The first two kept fairly close to the F-86/CL-13 pattern other than being powered by twin engines, pod-mounted on the rear fuselage.

The baseline CL-76 was to be powered by compact Pratt & Whitney Canada JT12 (US military designation J60) fitted with afterburners. The CL-76A proposal was essentially similar to the CL-76 other than being powered by slightly larger Bristol Siddeley Orpheus BOr.12SR turbojets. These engines (TJ37s in the US designation system) would produce 6,810 lbf dry, with 8,170 lbf reheat.

There was also a CL-76B proposal but it involved much more radical airframe changes - 'internal' engines, high-mounted wings, etc. Obviously, the CL-76B was no longer an exercise in recycling exiting F-86/CL-13 components. Rather, those components were to be modified out of all recognition. However, none of these Canadair proposals was taken up by Canada or any other NATO member.

Here, I've shown what I imagine service CL-76 Claymores would have looked like. She's no looker but, to me at least, it was still an interesting design exercise by Canadair.

(Top) A former RCAF Claymore Mk.1A (2 x J60s) in Yugoslav markings. To prolong airframe life, the Yugoslavs removed their Claymores outer weapon pylons.

The Claymore Mk.1s had no fixed gun armament. This aircraft sports a false radome like all RCAF Claymores (the targetting radar was omitted from Canadian airframes as an economy measure).

(Bottom) A Claymore Mk.3 (2 x TJ37s) near the end of its RAF service. This aircraft lacks both inboard and outboard weapon pylons since it is being employed on Claymore pilot refresher courses.

Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1858 on: August 26, 2018, 07:49:46 AM »
You got me, Apophenia.   The "V" seems awful close to the wing root, and only seems to thicken the wing.  I don't see that much advantage at all.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1859 on: August 26, 2018, 07:23:58 PM »
That Claymore is great, apophenia!

I bet a view from the top would bring to mind an A-10.

Give it a "ground pounder" load-out and it coulda been a contender!

You have some incredible vision and I always enjoy your work.

Brian da Basher

Offline AXOR

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1860 on: August 27, 2018, 12:25:49 AM »
A little bit strange with that big canopy...but that's good  ;D
Alex

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1861 on: August 27, 2018, 12:15:50 PM »
Claymore looks better than some other podded twin-engine Sabre derivatives I've seen, including some schemed by NAA.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1862 on: August 28, 2018, 04:11:57 AM »
Thanks folks!

Alex: Yes, the TF-86 made for an odd-looking bird. Somehow its oddness is intensified with Canadair's bulbous nose cap.

Evan: I'd love to see some of those NAA podded Sabre schemes!
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1863 on: August 29, 2018, 03:12:11 AM »
Only saw a copy of the brochure.  Had two podded turbofans (TFE731's I reckon), a solid nose, and much of the old intake and engine compartment converted to fuel tankage.  It was intended as a two-seat executive transport IIRC.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1864 on: September 02, 2018, 05:37:05 AM »
Another entry into The Anachronistic Group Build:  Rumelian Fighters - 1938

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8094.0
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1865 on: September 05, 2018, 04:22:27 AM »
I have been playing with some Spitfire-related notions springing off from the musings of kim margosein. The first is the Supermarine Type 321 Shrew lightweight fighter. [1]

My Shrew is Peregrine-powered with an airframe based on a shortened Spitfire fuselage and a Spitfire wing simplified with a straight leading edge. Tailplane and undercarriage would be standard Spitfire components.

The Peregrine would save perhaps 500 lbs, another few stone would be shaved off the airframe. So, the Shrew would have been lighter than the standard Spit. But I'm not sure that the work involved in developing the Shrew would have provided a worthwhile stablemate to the Spitfire. On to other simplified Spitfire notions ...
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1866 on: September 05, 2018, 05:17:10 AM »
A Peregrine powered Spitfire is truly inspired thinking!

Reminds me of an He-100 built by the good guys.

Great stuff!

Brian da Basher

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1867 on: September 05, 2018, 08:46:15 AM »
Looks quite pretty! ;)

What about with a laminar flow, or Whirlwind wing & a Whirlwind style bubble canopy? ???

Made by Westland, so's not to interfere with Spitfire production?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 08:47:57 AM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1868 on: September 05, 2018, 10:16:41 AM »
Awesome!  I really like the direction you went.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1869 on: September 07, 2018, 12:10:30 AM »
Kim: Cheers. A few more such ideas coming down the pike.

Vetus Vombatus Cool idea :)  I was heading in a Vickers direction but time can always be made for adding a Whirlwind canopy to anything!

So, here is the 'short' Shrew and 'long' Spitfire with Whirlwind canopy and wing. Haven't quite figured out the armament arrangements on these puppies though  :P
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1870 on: September 07, 2018, 02:27:50 AM »

it is funny to make that kind of exchanges, and they look nearly natural  ;)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1871 on: September 09, 2018, 03:08:41 AM »
Supermarine Type 321HS 'Hun-Shrew' aka Supermarine 'Shrimp'

The Type 321 Shrew was never completed - partly because the Peregrine was unavailable, partly because the RAF wasn't really in the market for a lightweight fighter. However, the Air Ministry was willing to fund the completion of the 'short' Spitfire airframe for experimental purposes.

Through very quiet back channels, the Air Ministry Intelligence Department had succeeded in spiriting the remains of several German Messerschmitt Bf 109 airframes out of Republican Spain. The Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE), at Martlesham Heath in Suffolk, expressed an interest in making comparisons between the latest German airframe techonology and that of British industry. Once as much as could be glean had been, two relatively undamaged Messerschmitt wing panels - one from a Bf 109B-0, one from a Bf 109B-1 - were forwarded to Supermarine.

The Type 321 fuselage was fitted with a Merlin engine and modified to accept the German components - wings and main undercarriage. To restore the aircraft's centre of gravity, the 'Hun-Shrew' was fitted with a belly radiator (taken from a Hawker Hurricane).  The finished airframe was delivered to the A&AEE in late May 1939 and quickly dubbed the 'Hun-Shrew'. It quickly became apparent that the 'Hun-Shrew' was less manoeuvrable than a standard Spitfire Mk.I. This was attributed to the smaller wing area, [1] which resulted in another nickname amongst test pilots - the Supermarine 'Shrimp'.

Having served its primary purpose, the 'Shrimp' became something of an A&AEE hack. However, shortly after the Establishment moved to Boscombe Down in Wiltshire, the Type 321HS (as it had become known) [2] was damaged in a ground loop. With no future role to play, the damaged 'Hun-Shrew' airframe was simply stripped of useable Spitfire parts and scrapped.

______________________________________

[1] The Messerschmitt Bf 109B's wing area measured only 174 sq ft. compared with a Spitfire Mk.I's 242 sq ft.

[2] The 'HS' sub-type designator may have been assigned to confuse German intelligence about the state of Supermarine's investigations into the French HS 12Y and 'Z powerplants.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1872 on: September 09, 2018, 05:54:57 PM »
I may have to hunt down a 1/72 bubble-top Spit & A 1/72 Whirlwind to try to piece together a Shrew based on that image. It's kinda cute! 8)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1873 on: September 09, 2018, 07:07:30 PM »
I may have to hunt down a 1/72 bubble-top Spit & A 1/72 Whirlwind to try to piece together a Shrew based on that image. It's kinda cute! 8)

Too bad you sold a 1/72 Airfix Whirlwind to someone isn't it...……. :-[

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1874 on: September 09, 2018, 11:47:27 PM »
I may have to hunt down a 1/72 bubble-top Spit & A 1/72 Whirlwind to try to piece together a Shrew based on that image. It's kinda cute! 8)

Too bad you sold a 1/72 Airfix Whirlwind to someone isn't it...……. :-[

Nah, went to a good home! :smiley:

I'll just have to find another one to rescue from the clutches of some thoughtless JMN rivet-counter! ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."