AIM-4/-26/-47, AGM-76 Falcon, and AIM-54 Phoenix

[dy031101]

The Nike-Phoenix was a proposed major upgrade and overhaul of the Nike-Hercules.

From what you did hear about Nike-Phoenix, did the overhaul make any change to the fire control set?

Both target-tracking sets and missile-tracking sets of the original Nike-Hercules system seem pretty bulky, for example.  And I found a Nike-Hercules what-if on the Shipbucket...... would it have been possible that the Nike-Phoenix system might employ more-compact sets?

I hope that at least I can use the MTR set for the Talos system as a substitute if I still need a MTR for every TTR......

[elmayerle]

Nike-Phoenix would have used, as I understand it, a suitable variation of the AWG-9 boxes in a combined tracking set; I've no doubt the resulting package would've been more compact while offering a rather larger antenna than the same electronics worked with on the F-14.

[dy031101]

Nike-Phoenix would have used, as I understand it, a suitable variation of the AWG-9 boxes in a combined tracking set; I've no doubt the resulting package would've been more compact while offering a rather larger antenna than the same electronics worked with on the F-14.

Combined tracking set...... as in a single radome (for example) handles both target tracking and missile tracking?

Shipbucket drawing of the missile (Nike-Hercules; is it safe to assume that the upgrade to the missile itself is invisible from the outside?) there for size comparison; for FCR I took the Sea Phoenix drawing and enlarged the radome a bit.  Would that be sufficient?  Or would I actually do perfectly well with the Sea Phoenix set altogether?

[elmayerle]

Definitely a single radome, much as on the aircraft carrying the Phoenix or it's predecessor (the Eagle).  The changes to the missile would be internal: new avionics, new and improved solid rocket motors, updated warhead design, etc.  What you've got looks good to me.  Since you're likely going for a longer range than the Sea Phoenix, a larger antenna would be helpful, but given the track-while-scan capabilities, it would probably work for both the Nike-Phoenix and the Sea Phoenix if you should have them together on one ship (likely, IMHO, a dedicated AAW ship).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The Hughes Falcon family of missiles have been known by a number of designations over the years that this weapon was in service.  The following designations are known to have been used by the US and other nations that operated this air to air missile:

AAM-A-2, MX-798, MX-904, F-98, GAR-1, GAR-2, GAR-3, GAR-4, AIM-4, Rb-28, HM-58, GAR-11, AIM-26, Rb-27, HM-55. 

For the sake of keeping it simple the designations for AIM-4 and AIM-26 will be used for this discussion. 

Wikipedia - AIM-4 Falcon

Mark Fisher's Model Rocket Headquarters - AIM-4 Falcon History in Brief
Mark Fisher's Model Rocket Headquarters main page

AIM-4D Falcon Card Paper Model

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AIM-4 Falcon

Wikimedia - AIM-4 Falcon

Wikipedia - AIM-26 Falcon

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AIM-26 Falcon

Wikimedia - AIM-26 Falcon

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AIM-47 Falcon

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-47 Falcon

Wikipedia - AIM-47 Falcon

Click to view larger image

(Image source: National Museum of the U.S. Air Force, Wright Patterson AFB, OH Image Number 060731-F-1234S-018.jpg)

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AGM-76 Falcon
Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-76 Falcon

Wikipedia - AGM-76 Falcon

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AIM-54 Phoenix

Wikipedia - AIM-54 Phoenix


(Image source:  U.S. Navy)

Designation Systems.net, Directory of U.S. Military Rockets and Missiles - AGM-54 Phoenix

FAS - AIM-54 Phoenix

NASA Dryden Flight Research Center Phoenix Missile Test Bed

U.S. Navy Museum of Armament and Technology, China Lake CA - AIM-54 Phoenix

U.S. Navy Fact File - AIM-54 Phoenix

Wikimedia - AIM-54 Phoenix


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All large and intimidating in their time and certainly one of the raw materials for your imagination when it comes to arming that fictional aircraft subject.  Having a few F-14 kits on hand has provided me with an excess of AIM-54 Phoenix shapes plus the Hasegawa weapons sets has provided even more of these things and with that many Phoenix shapes taking up space in the spare parts box one has to start considering other aircraft as possible candidates.  I was doodling with MS Paint a while back and wondered how many variations on the AIM-54 I could come up with that were still conservative in appearance which you can see in the attached image. 

Since the AIM-47 and AGM-76 were almost the same length and diameter I have included them in this topic as they are not as easy to find in any scale with the 1/72nd and 1/48th scale Italeri YF-12 kits being the most recent source and the old Revell 1/72nd scale YF-12 being the latter. 

For the sake of this discussion and back story maybe common sense prevailed and the Phoenix and Falcon programs were combined to standardize on one missile airframe with a variety of missions to perform.  At least that way you can find a use for all of those spare Phoenix shapes in the spare parts box. 


***Edit.  Since Greg included a link for the AIM-4 and AIM-26 I added some additional links for these missiles to the OP so it now encompasses all versions of the Falcon and Phoenix. 

[GTX_Admin]

Detailed overview of Falcon Family by Sean O'Connor here.

[Daryl J.]

I've often wondered if there could be an anti shipping version of the Phoenix.   

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

[elmayerle]

If memory serves me correctly, the Designation Systems.net page on the AIM-47 includes a brief bit on the AIM-47B which looks much closer to the AIM-54 in appearance.  A similar AGM-76B would not be out of place nor would AGM or ASM variants of the AIM-54.  How about either a boosted extended range AIM-54 or one fitted with an integral rocket-ramjet (like several Russian missiles) for extended range (I can argue for four intakes either forming strakes ahead of the fins or clocked between the fins).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Other than the AIM-26 Falcon offered in an old 1/72nd Airfix kit that I believe was a Saab J-35 Draken I have not seen any other model company produce this subject in any scale.  There is a 1/48th scale resin AIM-26 Falcon available from Squadron Mail Order's True Details line of aftermarket products.  It looks like an AIM-26 Falcon and that is good enough for me. 

Link to the product listing at Squadron: True Details USA AIM-26B Missile Set, Stock No: TD48542



click on image or html to view product page

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

Easy enough to modify the nose and give it an optical lens for your IR seeker. 

I had never given much thought to the AIM-54 as an air to surface missile but now I am thinking it might look quite convincing in that role on the appropriate aircraft subject. 

[Jeremak]

I've often wondered if there could be an anti shipping version of the Phoenix.

Well: Harpoon have 520 kg overall weight, carry 221 kg warhead, and have max range 315 km (F version. D version: 220 km. And Phoenix: overall weight: 462, warhead: 60 kg, range 183 km. Similar size and weight, but Phoenix is pure rocket with different flight profile, and is much faster than Harpoon, so after fiting anti-armour warhead, it may be a nice "hole-maker". Imagine F-111B converted into strike role (RA-5 replacement, or "USN Buccaneer" role if you prefer) with this missles, hunting soviet surface raiders, escorted by F-14, looking for Tu-142.

[Silver Fox]

The real trick is to combine the two ideas; an IR-seeking, anti-shipping Phoenix. Using IR makes more sense for the ASM anyway, ships stand out against the ocean. You get better target selection as well; hot spots are weapons emplacements, machinery spaces and sensors.

Why not an anti-radar version? You've got a big fast missile with a good sized sensor and good range.
Of course... AIM-54 has a 15" diameter, AGM-88 is 10" and AIM-9 is 5". So inertial guidance to the target box, anti-radiation tracking in mid-course and then IR terminal guidance if desired. With a different ARM package, the weapon would be great against AWACS-type targets. Shut down the radar too latge and the missile already an IR lock... no escape. :)
It would be easy to bash together and would make a nice, subtle variation on the weapons loadout of a Tomcat. 

[elmayerle]

Some of what I've read indicates that the AIM-54 may have had a "home on jam" mode which would put it well on the way to becoming a long-range heavy ARM (but not as heavy or long-range as some Russian ones).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Some of what I've read indicates that the AIM-54 may have had a "home on jam" mode which would put it well on the way to becoming a long-range heavy ARM (but not as heavy or long-range as some Russian ones).

Unsure if AIM-54A had the home-on-jam capability but the later versions of the Phoenix (AIM-54C) certainly did have this feature.   

[elmayerle]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

For my own purposes, I once looked at this.  The Sparrow II and the AIM-54/AIM-47 have similar envelopes (finspan X length) and the only major requirement would be a new extendable launcher for the new missile of choice.  I'd probably add the production IRST on the Arrow's vertical fin or go, F-108-style, with one at each wing leading edge/fuselage join.

[kitnut617]

I wonder IR guided AIM-47 or 54?

Easy enough to modify the nose and give it an optical lens for your IR seeker. 

I had never given much thought to the AIM-54 as an air to surface missile but now I am thinking it might look quite convincing in that role on the appropriate aircraft subject.

Well, the AIM-54 is about the same size as a Martel

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe arming the CF-105 with AIM-47 Falcon or AIM-54 Phoenix would be a good alternative to what comes with the kit.  Since the original issue of the HobbyCraft CF-105 Arrow had something that looked like a cross between the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Rapier SAM and the second release of the kit has absolutely nothing for weapons you have a clean slate to do what ever you wish with the kit.

For my own purposes, I once looked at this.  The Sparrow II and the AIM-54/AIM-47 have similar envelopes (finspan X length) and the only major requirement would be a new extendable launcher for the new missile of choice.  I'd probably add the production IRST on the Arrow's vertical fin or go, F-108-style, with one at each wing leading edge/fuselage join.

You are going to have that opportunity to try that out when you get that CF-105 kit.  I have included enough AIM-4 Falcon and AIM-54 Phoenix shapes so that you can arm it with either weapon :)

Plus some plastic rod/fibre that is of small enough diameter to be used for a variety of things for your detailing efforts.  This stuff is very similar to the bristles on paint brushes and brooms but much longer and certainly much more useful.  Just ask Brian da Basher as he has used it for some of the rigging wires on his biplane projects.  Sadly the other samples I have sent out have not generated any feedback on the usefulness of the stuff

[elmayerle]

And I thank you for those shapes.  Somewhere, most likely in my remote southern stash, I've got the IDEA boxing of the 1st generation Hobbycraft 1/48 Arrow and the "shapes" supplied with it bore little resemblance to any known missile.

One good thing about that link provided by our esteemed administrator, it has sufficient data to convert a AIM-47 to a AGM-76 and I'm very tempted to apply the same approach to the AIM-54 as an AGM-76B.  I wonder, now that Japan has shown the way by fitting an AESA antenna to their AAM-4b, would it be possible to build a dual-mode seeker by interleaving IR elements with AESA transmitter-receiver modules on a large missile airframe like that of the AIM-54?  That combined with an integral rocket-ramjet propulsion section, with or without a booster, could produce quite the dangerous long-range AAM.

[dy031101]

I stumbled across this when searching for inspirations......

I should have realized that the system would have a decent multi-target engagement capability- the whole set up IS derived from and an expansion upon the main weapon system of the F-14, after all.

[Daryl J.]

Note to self:  find some scenario where one of these types can be hung beneath either a Sea Vixen or Javelin in 1:48 scale and Non- British service.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Note to self:  find some scenario where one of these types can be hung beneath either a Sea Vixen or Javelin in 1:48 scale and Non- British service.

Phoenix and Sea Vixen sounds like a great idea.

[Rickshaw]

One of the primary reasons why the British turned their backs on Phoenix was the cost.  At several hundreds of thousands of dollars per round, it was deemed simply too expensive.

[Daryl J.]

Cost.  That will now be considered.   I may have to invent an exportable near-Phoenix.      (eyes first run Monogram F-14 Tomcat Phoenix shapes  and Evergreen Sheet in the Stash).

Thanks.  :)

[elmayerle]

How about an exportable Phoenix that replaces the US avionics with similar British systems, say the guidance system from Active Skyflash with a larger antenna and whatever other systems are needful.  The British content could make acquisition rather more palatable for some countries.  One could make the same offer to other countries, such as France, though I could see a joint Anlgo-French Phoenxi variant to arm FAA and Aeronavale F-14s.

[finsrin]

Use them on radar equiped Avro Lincoln.  Loiter for hours and use if needed.  Works in a kitbash air force.
Can do same with Valiant-Victor-Vulcan.

Another idea:  How about using the Swordfish.  One is radar equiped and one to six (or so) others, each with one Phoenix data linked to radar plane patrol around the fleet.

[Daryl J.]

 

It reminds me of an Orion with Harpoons....

[elmayerle]

Use them on radar equiped Avro Lincoln.  Loiter for hours and use if needed.  Works in a kitbash air force.
Can do same with Valiant-Victor-Vulcan.

Another idea:  How about using the Swordfish.  One is radar equiped and one to six (or so) others, each with one Phoenix data linked to radar plane patrol around the fleet.

There was a study of a Vulcan carrying 12 Phoenix missles.

Daryl,
How about an AEW Orion with the F-14's AN/APG-71 in the nose and carrying Phoenix missiles underwing and in the weapons bay?

[Rickshaw]

There were proposals for "Phoenix-like" missiles in British service - airborne Seaslug and Seadart - on various platforms but the "battlestar" Vulcan was perhaps easily the most attractive (and achievable).  Putting new electronics into Phoenix would have driven the cost even higher.  I'd have put a booster on Active Skyflash to give it the same sort of range as Phoenix.  Its electronics would have been as good, if not better (later generation) and it would have been adequate to destroy most targets.

[Daryl J.]

Daryl,
How about an AEW Orion with the F-14's AN/APG-71 in the nose and carrying Phoenix missiles underwing and in the weapons bay?

That'd be cool.

That's the idea I have for my Airfix B-57x Canberra albeit obviously with far fewer Phoenix missiles.    There are several details yet needing worked out.   


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Edit:

I'd have put a booster on Active Skyflash to give it the same sort of range as Phoenix.  Its electronics would have been as good, if not better (later generation) and it would have been adequate to destroy most targets.

That is exactly the scenario I've come up with for my Sea Vixen rather than the Phoenix.   Granted, it means they stay in service longer, but the aircraft won't ever have served with the British.    Hopefully will have some rather non-Sparrowlike wings, say more like the latest Sea Sparrow.    But that is another topic.    :)

[elmayerle]

My concept takes advantage of teh datalink possibilities to hand-off targets to ground- or ship-launched Nike-Phoenix SAMs (Nike-Hercules with updated motors and the avionics of the Phoenix; a joint McDD-Hughes proposal to Japan to replace their Nike-Hercules missiles).

[dy031101]

My concept takes advantage of teh datalink possibilities to hand-off targets to ground- or ship-launched Nike-Phoenix SAMs (Nike-Hercules with updated motors and the avionics of the Phoenix; a joint McDD-Hughes proposal to Japan to replace their Nike-Hercules missiles).

Curiosity- was Nike-Phoenix (or Nike-Hercules, for that matter) really ever proposed for shipboard use?

[elmayerle]

Not that I know of and you'd likely need some very special accomodations for it if you tried.  On the other hand, a boosted Sea Phoenix would work well.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Some variations on the AIM-54 that I created a couple of years ago and I suspect that there are many others yet to be created.  :)

[taiidantomcat]

Some variations on the AIM-54 that I created a couple of years ago and I suspect that there are many others yet to be created.  :)

I like these  :)... Got my creative juices going

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Some variations on the AIM-54 that I created a couple of years ago and I suspect that there are many others yet to be created.  :)

I like these  :)... Got my creative juices going

Glad I could help :)

Inspiration was due to the excessive numbers of Hasegawa weapons sets and other kits that have an abundance of AIM-54 shapes so I downloaded an image of the Phoenix from some missile data base on line that had a reasonably sized image and went to work finding some suitable variations on the basic Phoenix shape and those featured in the attached image were the most appealing of the bunch. 

[Daryl J.]

I liked them too.   

[elmayerle]

Boosted Phoenix = Bendix Eagle reincarnated.  Still a good idea. 

Jeffry,
 i definitely like those shapes; some would look right at home under a 'barrier defense" P-3 variant.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I liked them too.

Boosted Phoenix = Bendix [/i]Eagle[/i] reincarnated.  Still a good idea. 

Jeffry,
 i definitely like those shapes; some would look right at home under a 'barrier defense" P-3 variant.

Should be easy enough to craft from a pair of Phoenix shapes to create the missile you want. 

I like the option to scale up a 1:72nd scale Phoenix to 1:48th scale and call it the ultimate Falcon.  It should have no problem fitting inside of the weapons bays on the F-106 and F-102.  You could do a bit of kit bashing and graft the IR seeker on to the nose of the scaled up Phoenix to have a dedicated heat seeker too but that is just more work for those that wish it.  :)

[Daryl J.]

I may tape up my Sea Vixen and dry fit some "shape estimates".   Hmmmmm...... :)

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The recent discussion about the air-launched Patriot PAC-3 ATBM from an F-15 got me to wondering how close in diameter the original MIM-104 Patriot was to the AIM-54 Phoenix.  Turns out one is 15.0" and the other is 16.0" which means not much of a difference when you are working in smaller scales like 1:72nd or 1:48th.  This in turn led to some cut and paste to come up with an extended range AIM-54 Phoenix ATBM by increasing the length to match the Patriot (19.0') since the Phoenix is just 13.0' in length with the difference being 6.0' it was easy enough to extend the length of the missile body and remove all of the wings at the same time leaving just the control surfaces at the aft end of the missile.  See attached images showing the standard size Phoenix with the extended range Phoenix to get an idea of the overall increase in length for the Phoenix ABM one with wings and one without wings.

[Daryl J.]

Nice !

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Nice !

Thanks,

I like the first one better as it would be much easier to create but the second version with the large wings does have a certain attraction.  Mounting something like that on an F-14 would probably see it taking up both the front and rear pallets which means just two carried but for an ASAT/ATBM CAP it would be enough.  Fiddling around with the nose could get you some details to suggest a shroud that is jettisoned after launch to uncover the IR seeker that would be necessary for finding the target. 

[Daryl J.]

What is the width of the radar(s) used to support the Phoenix?

[Rickshaw]

What is the width of the radar(s) used to support the Phoenix?

The main element is the Hughes AWG-9 X-band radar; the antenna is a 36 in (91 cm)-wide planar array, and has integrated IFF antennas.

[Source]

[Daryl J.]

Thanks!  :)

Now to begin a list of potential AWG-9 carrying airframes for the Near Real Whiffverse.   The Sea Vixen is already slated for a Scandinavian modified version. 

CF-105
Canberra
Javelin

[GTX_Admin]

Thanks!  :)

Now to begin a list of potential AWG-9 carrying airframes for the Near Real Whiffverse.   The Sea Vixen is already slated for a Scandinavian modified version. 

CF-105
Canberra
Javelin

Hmmm...Sea Vixen with AWG-9 and AIM-54...I like!!! :)

[GTX_Admin]

Speaking of SeaVixens with a F-14 twist...

[Daryl J.]

I think near-real whiffing is more work than R-W modelling when it comes to research.   

The premise:  Sweden (Norway?  Denmark?  Nokia?) does to the AIM-54 as what Volvo did to the P&W JT8D to make the RM8B.    But where, how, when, etc. for the backstory.      It would seem accuracy, range, and price would be proper starting points for improvement.    And secrecy given the political climates prone to tug at the Blue and Yellow Scandihoovians. 

[finsrin]

Swing wing SeaVixen just went on my wanna kitbash list 

[Weaver]

Could've sworn I posted these one here....

Anyway, modelable ramjet Phoenix derivatives for my take on the Sea-Vixen-Cat:

Top one is straight Phoenix for reference.

Middle one is Bristol Purple Haze Mk.I AAM with tail fins cut diagonally and Phoenix fins reversed to look more "British".

Bottom one is BAE Dynamics Purple Haze Mk.II with all-new Britsh-style main wings.

[elmayerle]

Actually, ISTR that Hughes' competitor to Vought's LVRJ was based on the Phoenix.  I'm thinking that LVRJ-style intakes at the front base of the fins would work well.