Airship Carrier - finished

[Buzzbomb]

Things that make you want to go Hmmmm ??
Cleaning up today.. found and old aircraft carrier.. then there was a "hang on" moment.. dig out the Graf Zeppelin 1/720 Revell kit I picked up recently

So.. looks like I have found my next Whiffer project


So.. steampunk or dieselpunk.. we shall see as it evolves.

[GTX_Admin]

I have the exact same pair and also have thought of combining them....watching this one closely.

[Madhatter]

I can see a kind of steam-punk-esque  air-carrier coming from this. Looking forward to seeing what you do with it.
I'm surprised the Zeppelin has as many parts as it does!

[tankmodeler]

Watch out for it being top heavy! Remember, the lift vector for airships is always above the centre of mass (the payload) so they naturally stay upright. Put the heavy bits on top of the gas bag and you'll need a lot of propellers off to the sides to keep it flat side up. Lose the props (like in combat) and the entire thing will turn turtle.

That would be a new definition of "bad" for the crew!   

Much better to find a way to sling the deck below the gas bag and then have dieselpunk biplanes landing on the nice light wooden deck supported by a wooden truss structure underneath. The Elevators could then take the aircraft _up_ into hangers that are just under or within the envelope.

[PR19_Kit]

If the deck was made of unobtanium you wouldn't have a problem.   

You'd just have to ensure the aircraft were struck down to the hangars as they landed and didn't hang around parked on the deck.

[GTX_Admin]

Watch out for it being top heavy! Remember, the lift vector for airships is always above the centre of mass (the payload) so they naturally stay upright. Put the heavy bits on top of the gas bag and you'll need a lot of propellers off to the sides to keep it flat side up. Lose the props (like in combat) and the entire thing will turn turtle.

That would be a new definition of "bad" for the crew!   

So what you're saying is that this might not be the best design?

[Buzzbomb]

So what you're saying is that this might not be the best design?

So.. already been done and rather nicely.
Sadly I am one for letting physics get in the way of a good whiffer.. it has to look practical and Tankmodeller is totally correct.
My inital thoughts were to counter balance the desk with the "Island at the bottom of the world" and other bits.
Of course the discovery of the new Lift Gas "PoliticianHotAirium"   will of course give me plenty of lift

So far all I have done is some taping and part moving around so stay tuned..
To paraphrase a certain Captain Oates
"I am just about to build a welrd model.. I may be some time"
Move along.. nothing to see here... yet :)

[tankmodeler]

So what you're saying is that this might not be the best design?

Yep, exactly a horrible design. Seriously.

If you want to put the flat top on top, you have to add much more mass below. If your imaginary world has something _other_ than Hydrogen or Helium in the gas bag, you might be able to make _that_ work.

Let's imagine that the bags are filled with refined æther (the mythical medium that permitted electromagnetic waves to propogate) and that when energised to create an anti-gravity effect it provided, say, 2000 times as much lift as a similar volume of H2 within Earth's gravity well, then you could put the flat-top on top and the hangers and much of the armament underneath to provide the needed balance to ensure it didn't go belly up.

In ship design terms, this interaction between top weight and buoyancy is called the metacentric height. If it is positive (i.e the CG is below the Centre of Buoyancy[CB]) then the ship stays upright. When the CG gets above the CB, the ship turns turtle. Ships in the North Atlantic run the risk in winter of putting on so much weight in ice on the superstructure that they _do_ turn turtle. It has and continues to happen.

The further the CG is below the CB,the more stable the ship is, but the deeper it sits in the water and the more energy it takes to move it. Warships tend to run with a very narrow margin between the CG and the CB to minimise drag and increase efficiency and so have to continuously watch for things like winter ice or too much mass above the waterline.

And I'm sure that is waaaaay more about this nonsense than you wanted to know.  :)

Ship Design 101 is now over, class dismissed.

Paul

[Kerick]

Just put the flight deck under the gas bag and a couple of little look out stations above. How about some exposed engines underneath and a big prop on the back end.

[GTX_Admin]

Thanks teach...

And now a case of how it WAS done:


Note aircraft compartment.

[tankmodeler]

Got the red X of death on that image, GTX. No can see. :)

[GTX_Admin]

Try now

[tankmodeler]

Indeed, the Akron and Macon.

6 whole aircraft and no flight deck. No big guns or flight island either. 

The real is always more boring than the imagined.  :)

[tankmodeler]

How about some exposed engines underneath and a big prop on the back end.

That would make aircraft recovery operations rathere more "sporty" as the aircraft fights against the turbulance of not only the gasbag, but the prop as well.

[Kerick]

I was just thinking of the pilots who used to launch and recover using the hook device on the Akron and Macron. That had to take some real bravery. I'd like to see people try that today.

[tankmodeler]

I was just thinking of the pilots who used to launch and recover using the hook device on the Akron and Macron. That had to take some real bravery. I'd like to see people try that today.

Bravery, to be sure. Ranked right up there with the guys who tried to do the same task at much higher speeds in the McDonnell Goblin and the F-84 Thunderflash FiCon hook ups to the B-36.

Paul

[Madhatter]

So what you're saying is that this might not be the best design?

Regardless of any design faults or impracticalities and so on, I still think you did a great job on that. I personally really like that!

[PR19_Kit]

They also did it with the F-84K/GRB-36H combo later on. Flying THAT close to something producing gales of wake turbulance must have been horrendous.

[Brian da Basher]

I am of course, watching with great interest, buzz!

I've got a plan for something similar using a 1/144 Kilo sub for the airship, so I look forward to your progress.

Brian da Basher

[MaxHeadroom]

Looks fantastic! WOW!
(But reminding some school-physics, the top-load [landing-strip, hangars and so on] and all the other accessoirs must be muuuch too heavy for such a "tiny" air-ship. )

Max

[jcf]

From the accounts I've read the Sparrowhawk pilots didn't consider
it a big deal, once learned it was routine. Remember that it became
so common for the crews that they were comfortable operating the aircraft
with the landing gear removed. The F9C was small with good power and control
response and the big airships were unmoving islands when compared with the
B-29 or B-36 used in the jet-age projects.

[Buzzbomb]

Righto, to prove that I have not been bone idle.. albeit a little sidetracked with the 234 Mortar carrier.. nonetheless.. the Airship Carrier proceeds.

First up I intend to try and address at least some of the physics practicalities mention in the many terrific posts so far.
So this is where I am at so far
I have cut into the top of the airship a bit to put the deck on.. the kit carrier deck was promptly discarded and plastic card used.
Would have loved to used some wood planking but nothing I had was close to the 1/700 which this is heading towards. Better use nothing that outscale stuff and destroy the illusion
 (of a mythical whiffer ship.. but you get my drift)


So then a bit of work on the "island" which then beckoned some interior, so used some left over PE from the HMS Trident build and cut out an elevator. Also some external buoyancy tanks


Now the dilemma I have is that I am really impressed by MadHatters build with the Sci Fi ship.. so lights are beckoning here as well.
Must.... resist.... the... urge... to.... put.... lights ...... in.... Must.........................resist................

[Kerick]

In a combat situation it would be "lights out"!!!

[Queeg]

Your fellow whiffers demand lights ............ 

[Old Wombat]

So what you're saying is that this might not be the best design?

Regardless of any design faults or impracticalities and so on, I still think you did a great job on that. I personally really like that!

I agree whole-heartedly!

Besides, when you're using phlogiston instead of hydrogen or helium, anything is possible!

Can't wait to see how your build turns out, Brian!

:)

Guy

PS: I don't demand lights - they make me feel ... incompetent ... as a modeller.

[Buzzbomb]

There is movement and the station... dull raining New Years day here in Melbourne.. .perfect modelling weather.

A bit of progress on the Airship carrier. Also mocked up how I want the stabilizer props/rotors to look.. well at this stage.
Only taped together but the basic structure is just about set.

Added a lower superstructure with a ventral catapult station as well.
Found some excellent 1/700 Ship weapons sets by Tamiya (I think)
 
 These will be used for weapons stations, the other set having some neat searchlights and stuff.

Decided to go down the lighting track, so that is proceeding.. trying to emulate Madhatter with his excellent fibre optic work.
Also this makes it slower, with some hand wringing and gnashing of teeth.
More later.

[jcf]

I wanna see the 'flotation devices' for the motor boats. 

Looks very cool. 

[Madhatter]

I had no idea you could get those sets of ordinance! Wish I'd known that before I started on the carrier. I'll have to go buy me one of those sets now. Thanks Brian  :)
As for your build, mate, it's looking absolutely awesome. Reckon you'll have it finished for expo? If so, I'm not entering the carrier  you'd beat me for sure.

[Buzzbomb]

So.. what have we learned so far.
1. Fibre optic is fiddly
2. Planning is everything..
3. Use techniques of others to suit your build.

Ok.. first time with fibre optic and it has been a great experience, if nothing else.
I sourced my fibre optic from this $8 Christmas decoration.. naff for Christmas.. fantastic for a source of cheap fibre optic.


The next challenge is laying it through the build.. this is the planning and fiddly bit

Learnt a lot from this build.. will use it again...  but better methinks.

Now as to techniques of others.. there a lot of ways to do stuff out there, other builds, youtube, forums etc etc.
One thing I was looking for was how to attach the fibre optic to the LED source. I have read, glue directly, heat shrink etc etc.
I found one that seemed to work for me where he actually drilled a hole into the LED as a snug anchor for the fibre optic and it appears to work. Just glue them in with white glue directly into the hole.

Plenty of caution needed though. File a flat spot to give a positive start point for the drill and do not drill too far and kill the LED

We are getting there.. if I had not done lights.. surely this would be done by now

[Brian da Basher]

Wow with lights too! Amazing stuff! Love the mock-up,

Eagerly awaiting more,
Brian da Basher

[Madhatter]

Hey Brian

This airship is coming along nicely mate! I  really think this is a very cool subject and hoe to see it in the plastic one day at expo

For a first go with fibers your doing well. Nice tidy electronics too.

That's a novel way to attach the fibers to the LED. I've never even thought of that before now. I may have to try that out one day if space is very constricted.
Normally, I make a small box out of sheet styrene, drill out a hole big enough to slip in a 3mm LED at one end and a smaller hole to bundle the end of the fibers into. If you line your box with tin foil as well, the spectrum of light from the LED is better spread, so therefore the light will hit any stray fibers.

Also, by making a box, it's easier to secure to the surface of the build - you just glue it with normal plastic glue

To keep the ends of the fiber bundle together, I usually tie them together with a small cable tie. Once I've inserted the bundle into the box, I drop over some CA to hold the fibers solid. The only problem with using CA glue to hold everything together is it makes the fibers brittle and easy to break, so gentle handling is required.

Paint the box black on the outside to prevent light leakage and bobs your uncle. Works for me

Anyway, that's enough unasked for advice from me, and it's back to the regularly scheduled program....

[Old Wombat]

"Fiat lux!" sayeth Brian & there was light upon the void.

Awesome work, dude! :)



Guy

[Frank3k]

Brian,
 You're on the right track. My only suggestion (for your next lighting build) is to use 30 gage wire-wrap wire for your internal wiring. It's smaller and easier to maneuver into tight areas.

 At a previous job, I made an 18 LED mask to be used in an MRI machine. Since the LEDs and electronics couldn't be in the field, I used a long plastic fiber optic bundle (around 10m) to the LED box. I used small LEDs and drilled into the domes, just like you did. I used epoxy to hold the fibers in place at both ends (as I discovered, CA glue is great at slicing through fibers once it hardens...). Other than my boss's clumsiness, the LED mask worked well for over 10 years, until it was remade recently.

[GTX_Admin]

Very impressive!

[Camthalion]

That's looking great, nice work

[Buzzbomb]

Thanks for the comments guys... and helpful hints both Madhatter and Frank.. next time it will be better I promis !!

some more work over the weekend tidying up stuff, filling, hiding bloopers, putting on "stuff" and getting ready to for the final heart wrenching moment of gluing it together.
Hopefully next weekend some more pix.

[Buzzbomb]

It grinds on.. but progress.. wish I did not get so sidetracked on other projects
This is what we finished with for construction.. other than the bits I am sure I will add later


Under first coat paint


Some masking removed and some lights visible. The sticky up bits are the fibre optic which will be trimmed back last thing once all the paint work is done (Thanks MH.. great tip)


Working on final deck fitting like arrestor wires (bit traditional, but you know...), aircraft, then railings, final fittings and rotors/props.

Not sure I really like how the layout ended.. sort of needs an antenna array on the dorsal part of the bridge, but it may make it look lopsided and dicky... we shall see

[Madhatter]

Mate - that lighting is just awesome! I really like it.
I really don't want to rain on your parade, but I wish someone had told me this when I was working on the Venator - the lights maybe too bright for the scale of the ship. I would suggest a smaller power source maybe. 2AA's instead of a 9V
Looking forward to seeing the deck and the rest of the ship lit up though!
Si

[GTX_Admin]

Mate - that lighting is just awesome! I really like it.

What he said! :)

[Buzzbomb]

Mate - that lighting is just awesome! I really like it.
I really don't want to rain on your parade, but I wish someone had told me this when I was working on the Venator - the lights maybe too bright for the scale of the ship. I would suggest a smaller power source maybe. 2AA's instead of a 9V
Looking forward to seeing the deck and the rest of the ship lit up though!
Si

The photo was taken only using room lighting on a long time exposure, so they appear brighter than they are, but you are right though in that scale lighting is hard to crack. Nonetheless, I will look at jacking it back a bit
I use 6v as my lighting basis, 4 x AA cells as they last a lot longer than the 9V block batteries which have very poor amperage, so I could drop to 3V, but then I do have a circuit board in this build with a chaser array that is used on the landing deck so I would have to see how that behaves.

But you could say.. you can see the light at the end of the tunnel on this build

BTW there was nothing about your Venator that was too bright in my opinion seeing it live on the floor. Photos tend to exagerate lighting though.

[Queeg]

Another great lighting jobbie ..... looking awesome matey !!!!

Brent

[finsrin]

With lights or no lights is a cool airship carrier 
Fitting of of flight deck & superstructures looks like "thatz the way they are built".  Look up airship carriers in Jane's and you will see.

[Alvis 3.1]

I say, that Aerodyne is rather large, no old chap? Huzzahs and hurrahs, it's a most splendid looking contraption!

Alvis 3.1

[Diamondback]

I'd be tempted to upscale the cigar enough that you could sink a runway down INTO the top with the gasbags wrapping up alongside it, AND have a bay or two Akron/Macon style down below--seems to me the trapeze rig could be done both safer and crew-friendlier today with both mechanical and computer assistance.

--DB, still looking for a solution that could swallow a crippled or hijacked 747 or A380 in midair, Star Destroyer style...

[tankmodeler]

seems to me the trapeze rig could be done both safer and crew-friendlier today with both mechanical and computer assistance.

The big problem with trapese rigs is that they are inherantly complicated for little benefit. If you can put a deck on top (or slung full length underneath) then the landing of the aircraft is much simpler. Even computer assisted landing on a trapese only gets you so far unless you slow down the difference in speeds so much that the aircraft is essentially hovering, in which case, just put a plain platform on the airship and land on that. The Akron & Macon worked pretty well because the stall speed of the aircraft was not much more than the full-out speed of the airships and the landings were relatively straightforward. Landing high performance aircraft with light landing speeds on sush a thing would be very, very hard to do. If the aircraft hovers, it's easy, but then you don't need the trapese.

But, if you want a trapese, put one on, you can't actual build an airship aircraft carrier with known gasses or materials either, so mere engineering can't get in the way of a cool idea.   :)

Paul

[Volkodav]

I was just thinking, you wouldn't actually need a flying off deck or catapult and the aircraft would be able to accelerate into forward flight simply through there engine and gravity when you pushed them off the edge or dropped them out the bottom.  This way the flight deck would simply be for landing, much simpler

[Kerick]

It would look like a C-17 dropping paratroops but with fighters instead!

[elmayerle]

I'd be tempted to upscale the cigar enough that you could sink a runway down INTO the top with the gasbags wrapping up alongside it, AND have a bay or two Akron/Macon style down below--seems to me the trapeze rig could be done both safer and crew-friendlier today with both mechanical and computer assistance.

--DB, still looking for a solution that could swallow a crippled or hijacked 747 or A380 in midair, Star Destroyer style...

Instead of a trapeze, go with a BAe Skyhook and aircraft capable of formatting on it (advanced Harriers, perhaps?).  As for the other, a huge variant of the "deltoid pumpkin seed" shape that combines lifting body with airship (cf. scaled up Aereon III or something similar).

[tankmodeler]

I was just thinking, you wouldn't actually need a flying off deck or catapult and the aircraft would be able to accelerate into forward flight simply through there engine and gravity when you pushed them off the edge or dropped them out the bottom.  This way the flight deck would simply be for landing, much simpler

The take off would be a tad dramatic and, if we are talking high performance aircraft, you would have to be at a substantial height before you could attempt the manoeuvre; high performance aircraft eend high take off speeds for a reason and would need a LOT of height to reach flying speed and then safely pull out at the bottom.  Plus it isn't the take off that's the problem. Take off is easy. Add a catapult if you need high speed and you are away. It's the landings that are hard and this doesn't help that at all.

Paul

[Buzzbomb]

So here we are... the end is nigh!

There are so many places where I thought.. "if had done this differently......." around some of the engineering for this but it has taken so damn long.. it just had to get finished.

Modification of the Aircraft.. I used 1/700 Corsairs and the dual boom is two half Seafires and a Swordfish

Aircraft on the deck, these are canard forward types

Landing deck.. again missing so much, like the barrier and other necessary things

Side View

Ventralish


Looks like one of my light circuits has failed as well.. Oh well.. another "if I had done that differently!"
Some truing of the rotors and there may be a bit of tweaking here and there but pretty much.. that is it :)
Cheers

[GTX_Admin]

Outstanding result! :)

[ChernayaAkula]

Awesome stuff!  :) Love the aircraft! Their designs are worth renditions in a bigger scale. 

[Madhatter]

I have to say mate  that is looking friggin awesome! It's how I would envision a WWII airship carrier to look if it were real. Very Iron Sky like.
Hopefully, this will be at expo so I can see the chaser lights in action. You've done more than me in so far as using a chaser unit. I've never even used a flasher unit yet, despite the fact I have one in my drawer ready to use. Very slack I know.
Looking forward to seeing the final result. I hope you keep the patience to finish it as you imagined it to be

Si

[Camthalion]

looks great finished.  nice work

[The Big Gimper]

Outstanding. Nick Fury would be proud of your work.

[Buzzbomb]

Hopefully, this will be at expo so I can see the chaser lights in action.

yeah... about that.. remember I said a circuit had failed.... that was it. Damn gimmicks.

Thanks for the feedback folks.  Next !!!

[finsrin]

Unique build and genre :)
Should be central prop in a movie.  Love whole concept

Attention to interesting features and detail holds ones attention to look it over.
Hull, superstructures, defensive guns, flight deck, stern fins, and 12 propellers all complement each other to result in over all correct appearance.

[Old Wombat]

Man, that's just bucket-loads of greatness, BT!



Guy

[Weaver]

That's excellent and the lights look great!  :)

[Brian da Basher]

This is one of my favorite builds of all time!

You really made it all work, from the multiple rotors to the cool little airplanes and the warning stripes around the elevator.

What an amazing aircraft carrying airship!

Brian da Basher

[bluesman]

Very cool, Brian. I wouldn't want to land on it though. Looks incredibly dangerous, but thats what makes it so cool.

[MaxHeadroom]

The helicopter-like-airscrews are a rrreal good idea, to compensate the probably much too little body of the airship and it's gas-cells to carry and lift all this load (landing deck, control tower, hangars and elevator, the crew's rooms, engines and fuel and so on) without help.
I guess, the gas-cells are only big enough to prevent a lethal crash and the big propellers are to vary the height. Am I right?
And the idea of modified what-if-fighters: outstanding!

Nevertheless: all in all grrreat!

Norbert

[Panzerroland]

I LOVE IT! 

Regards
Roland

[Buzzbomb]

Thanks all.

Norbert...there are so many things wrong with this concept in physics terms.

My thoughts were that the rotors were to provide stability, to stop roll as the ship would be very top heavy.
Lift provided by the super lifting gas aether

[uncle les]

..works for me.   

[andonio64]

I really love it!
Great work of fantasy!!!!

Antonio

[MaxHeadroom]

Sorry buzzbomb, I won't upset you. I like the airship very much.
 
But physics is one of my hobby and when I build a what-if-model, I try to build it close to a possible reality including the physics. Therefore, I'd tried to find an explanation to myself because of the combination of the gas-cell and the propellers.

Norbert

[RP1]

That's fantastic! :-)