To counter Chinese threat, apparently the Chinese media are pushing for the use of non-peaceful measures against Vietnam and the Philippines over South China Sea territories. Fools don't they realise that western map makers calling a body of water "something China something" doesn't give them automatic ownership hundreds of years later.
the RAN takes the cheaper option & buys the Rafale for itself & the RAM.
So what is exactly wrong with the Rafale, it's certainly not lighting any fires with other Governments ---
So what is exactly wrong with the Rafale, it's certainly not lighting any fires with other Governments ---
Also in the case of a certain self-proclaimed democracy off the coast of the PRC that I know of, there is also a matter of "your (as in previous administration, even if led by a different clique in the same party) arms procurement channel, not mine!"
sorry I'm not following you, what's PRC for starters -- and what is your arms procurement channel ? But that is not telling me why if the Rafale was really as good as what some people are saying, why it's not being bought in droves, it's not any different to the Typhoon though -- is it?
Stalling on a 5th generation buy though, wouldn't be helping you much, look at world events right now --
But in my last post I said the Rafale isn't any different to the Typhoon, except there is one -- Typhoons are selling ---
Canadian Air Force has never operated a French made aircraft though ----
Another way to look at it is a Rafale buy in the early 2000s could have provided the purchasing nation with a state of the art combat aircraft delivering better performance and greater capability than any upgraded 4th generation aircraft while completely avoiding the issue of sustaining aging, hour limited airframes waiting for the F-35 to be delivered. For example had Australia opted for an early Rafale buy there would have been no need for the SH buy, or the legacy Bug HUG and the F-35 buy could have been pushed out to the early of mid 2020s.
In my opinion, nothing.
It just happens to be the "last" of the Gen4 fighter designs & was a bit too early for many of the fighter renewal acquisition programs. So, it lost out to the "first" of the Gen5 fighter designs (F-35 JSF).
Greg has pointed out that the Rafale is no longer much cheaper than the F-35 to buy. My feeling is that this is largely a matter of scale, there are so many countries buying the F-35 (& who have already invested so much in it that they can not afford for it to fail) that the ginormous development costs are able to be amortised across a vastly greater number of aircraft.
If the Rafale had been purchased in similar numbers & upgraded as required, I still think the cost per unit would have been much cheaper than the F-35.
I, also, still think that the Rafale would be a better choice for many countries spending their dollars/yen/pesos/etc. on the F-35.
Rafale is not the 'last' of the Gen4/4.5 designs, it is 'older' than both Gripen and Typhoon.
Sales have been hampered by Dassault's disinclination to deal on price and lack of
coordination between Dassault and the French government, particularly on the foreign
trade side.
Canadian Air Force has never operated a French made aircraft though ----
([url]http://www.canadianwings.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/aircraft/gallery/117506-Trenton-June-1972-0002.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/aircraftDetail.php?FALCON-106[/url])
Dassault CC-117 FALCON ([url]http://www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/aircraftDetail.php?FALCON-106[/url])
Cheers,
Logan
D'oh! forgot about that one (even got a kit of it in the stash) and of course there's the CC-150 Polaris. But to be fair, they're not really 'war' planes are they ---
I love the look of the Polaris, You Canadians have great taste in schemes --same with that Falcon :-*
The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible am *slightly* biased.
On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.
Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?
The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible am *slightly* biased.how many hunters were sold?
On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.
Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?
The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible am *slightly* biased.how many hunters were sold?
On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.
Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?
I have long dreamed of Taiwan being the export launch customer for Rafale
I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program? Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...
That sounds like an excellent idea for someone willing to expend the time and resources on such a project.I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program? Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...
Dassault's pride (or arrogance) prevented that, Greg. Marcel believed only his planes should equip the French Air Force. I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours? ;D
I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program? Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...
I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours? ;D
I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours? ;D
What the Rafale really needed was to be available a decade earlier when the F-35 project hadn't started up yet, that way it would have been competing against F/A-18C/D and earlier blocks of the F-16C/D.
Technology Demonstrator First Flight: | 4 July 1986 (Rafale-A) | 24 October 2000 (X-35) |
Proper Prototype First Flight: | 19 May 1991 (Rafale-C) | 15 December 2006 (F-35A) |
First Delivery to Service: | December 2000 (Rafale-M to Aéronavale) | July 2011 (F-35A) |
IOC Declared: | June 2004 (Rafale-M with Aéronavale - 6 acft only) | Planned: 2015 (F-35B with USMC), 2016 (F-35A with USAF) |
Number Produced To Date: | 126 (Rafale C, B and M) | 100+ (there are around 114 in production at the moment across F-35A, B and C |
I think you will find the Mirage 2000 experience diminished the prospects.
I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program? Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...
Dassault's pride (or arrogance) prevented that, Greg. Marcel believed only his planes should equip the French Air Force. I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours? ;D
Taking the combined Rafale/Typhoon common Eurofighter theme further, what about Rafales in the real world Typhoon schemes?
Egypt Close to Order for 24 Rafales
PARIS --- Egypt is close to signing a long-rumored order for 24 Dassault Rafale combat aircraft and one FREMM frigate, a package which according French media reports is worth €5 to €6 billion.
The order looks imminent as the French and Egyptian governments are reported to have reached a tentative agreement this week on the related financing package, during a visit here by an Egyptian government delegation. Rafale maker Dassault Aviation declined to comment on the deal, AFP wire service reported.
The agreement, reported Feb 05 by Paris business daily Les Echos, primarily revolves around the French export credit bank, COFACE, as cash-strapped Egypt does not have the money to pay for the entire package. COFACE will guarantee 50% of the deal’s value, down from the initial 80-90% requested by Egypt, and financing will be provided by a pool of French banks and possibly Saudi Arabia. Egypt has reportedly agreed to make a down payment of €500 million.
Egypt wants to have its first Rafales in service by August, for the inauguration of the expanded Suez Canal, and also wants early delivery of the frigate, which requires agreement of the financing package and contract signature in a matter of weeks.
The French government, whose multiyear defense budget depends on Rafale exports, has agreed to give Egypt an initial batch of Rafales already in service with its own air force, as well as the French navy’s llatest FREMM frigate, which is currently completing sea trials.
Meeting the delivery deadlines requested by Egypt depends, however, on whether and when it will make the down payment.
-ends-
I have 2 x 1/48 Rafales (B & M) which will become either RAN or RAM.
If RAN, will get 2-tone grey/blue-grey wrap-around with low-vis insignia.
If RAM, will get 3-tone grey-green/grey-brown(tan?)/blue-grey wrap-around with low-vis insignia.
Have similar plans for a 1/48 Gripen (when I finally buy it) which will be navalised.
Not sure which aircraft type to use for RAN or RAM. Both have features useful to both services.
The main question is; which would be the best mud-mover & which would be the best interceptor/CAP aircraft? ???
[The Rafale is the first completely omnirole fighter
if both the Rafale and the Gripen are in Australian service, would it be a Gripen variant sharing an engine with the Rafale in order to reduce logistics costs? Or would it be the other way around with the Rafale using the Gripen's engine? The later would have the advantage of more support world-wide as the RM12 is derived from the F404/F412/F414 series of engines.
if both the Rafale and the Gripen are in Australian service, would it be a Gripen variant sharing an engine with the Rafale in order to reduce logistics costs? Or would it be the other way around with the Rafale using the Gripen's engine? The later would have the advantage of more support world-wide as the RM12 is derived from the F404/F412/F414 series of engines.
I would tend to go with either the F404 or F414.
That said, prior to Saab's selection of the F414G for the latest Gripen variants, both the SNECMA M88 and the Eurojet EJ200 were under consideration for the Gripen.
From the Rafale's pov, remember that the early versions did fly with the F404.
I was reading yesterday that during the mid 1980's around the same time as France left the original Future European Fighter Aircraft that eventually led to the Eurofighter Typhoon, they were also encouraging Spain to do the same (Spain did leave but then re-joined). What if they were successful and then co-developed the Rafale? Imagine a Rafale in this sort of scheme:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Typhoon_-_RIAT_2006_%28altered%29.jpg)
Greece to Buy 10 Rafale Jets, Receive 8 More as ‘Donation’ from France