Author Topic: Vought F7U Cutlass  (Read 11966 times)

Online Jeffry Fontaine

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Vought F7U Cutlass
« on: July 01, 2013, 05:41:19 AM »
Thank you Daryl J. for the inspiration to start another discussion topic.  :)

Sees this thread, looks at the very nice Fujimi Cutlass kit, remembers what a retired Cutlass mechanic said about them and what they needed to make them good, says "Hmmmmmmmm........."  :) ;D.   Looks at schedule and says  :icon_crap: :-X :icon_crap: :icon_nif:

 
Wikipedia - Vought F7U Cutlass

Ideas? 

How about a variable geometry/swing wing Cutlass? 

The proposed version of the Cutlass as a dedicated ground attack aircraft hauling bombs does sound interesting.   

How about a Cutlass with wing tip mounted missile rails for Sidewinders? 

Air Force version with armed with AIM-4 and AIM-26 Falcons in a high-visibility arctic paint scheme? 

click on thumbnail to view larger image courtesy of Wikipedia:


« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:50:59 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 05:56:34 AM »
The gentleman and I had a good two hour chat on the Cutlass.   He felt it was a great aircraft plagued by its landing gear and hampered by its engines.

       
So with that in mind, I've already laid out some plans to redo the rotten nose gear and shorten it considerably, stretch the fore part of the fuselage to compensate for the de Havilland-like twin booms/full tailplane on the Hobbycraft kit.   Other projects are ahead of this one so it remains shelved.   As to service role?   USN ground attack.   
kwyxdxLg5T

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 06:08:54 AM »
If the engines were able to provide more thrust then the height of the lose gear strut might have been reduced.  I suppose a better analysis will be provided by someone with the requisite credentials on their CV/resume. 
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 03:14:40 AM »
Single engined Cutlass proposal using J57-P-4 engine instead of the twin Westinghouse J46 engines.



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Offline finsrin

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 05:01:21 AM »
Modernized with single F414 otta do the trick !

Offline dy031101

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 05:44:12 AM »
One of the design proposals actually called for three J46s J34s.

That's a cute way of solving the problem with engines' individual lack of thrust  ;D

EDIT: 'Cause I was so excited when seeing the drawing that I lost the ability to read.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 03:29:40 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2016, 09:52:21 PM »
Turn that single engine version into a UAV..... :icon_crap:
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 12:12:03 PM »
One of the design proposals actually called for three J46s J34s.

I finally got around to scan the whole drawing......

Now throw in the F7U-3 forward fuselage and that'd be my pet Cutlass!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 03:29:11 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 03:57:56 AM »
Cool - definitely one for the "sexy ugly" category.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 09:33:09 AM »
Without changing the radome, which of the following radars would stand a chance of fitting into the F7U-3 in your opinion: NASARR R21G, Grifo-MG, or Kopyo-25?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 09:44:49 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GaryF

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 01:21:53 PM »
A few years ago someone in FSM 'Tomcatted up' the Fujimi Cutlass ... 2 seat canopy, bigger engines, new lg, etc ... was really nice job. On the last page of that issue. Still one I'd like to take a shot at.
Edit:  appears it may have been April of 2000 issue.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 12:24:56 PM by GaryF »

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2016, 04:49:57 AM »
A few years ago someone in FSM 'Tomcatted up' the Fujimi Cutlass ... 2 seat canopy, bigger engines, new lg, etc ... was really nice job. On the last page of that issue. Still one I'd like to take a shot at.
Edit:  appears it may have been April of 2000 issue.


Is this the one:

« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 04:56:03 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline GaryF

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2016, 10:59:21 AM »
Yeah that looks like the one. Phantom bits, not Tomcat as I was remembering. A really nice job. Do like the 2 seats and more conventional nose gear!

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 02:54:32 AM »
Some more on the single engined V-389 proposal:




Engine installation:




Guns:  Note from earlier post this would have had only two MK12 guns above the right-hand inlet duct with provisions for a second set over the left-hand inlet duct.  The gun muzzles are staggered and located aft of the duct lip instead of in the air duct lip like the A2U-1.


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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2019, 03:14:07 AM »
One doesn't see bombs on a Cutlass that often:

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2019, 03:19:34 AM »
'Glamour' shot showing guns, Sparrows and Rocket pod:

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 02:30:12 AM »
As alluded to in another thread, I wonder if we could have seen a better Cutlass if some alternate, British engines were considered than the J35s or J46s.  For instance, maybe a RR Avon (maybe as a alternate history Westinghouse J54) or Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire (Wright J65)?  Looking at the engines, we see:

J34 (As used in F7U-1)
Diameter:  0.69 m
Length:  2.84 m
Weight:  547.5 kg
Thrust:  3,370 lbf (15.0 kN)
J46 (As used in F7U-3)
Diameter:  0.86 m
Length:  5.0 m
Weight:  952.5 kg
Thrust:  4,600 lb (20.4 kN) thrust dry, 6,100 lb (27.1 kN) with afterburner
Rolls-Royce Avon Mk.208 (Version in de Havilland Sea Vixen)
Diameter:  1.067 m
Length:  3.223 m
Weight:  1310 kg
Thrust:  11,250 lb (50 kN) thrust dry, 14,370 lb (63.9 kN) with afterburner
J65 (As used in F-84F)
Diameter:  0.953 m
Length:  3.098 m
Weight:  1259 kg
Thrust:  7,500 lb (33.4 kN)

Therefore whilst both the 'British' engines are fatter and heavier, their thrusts are both much higher even in dry.  Perhaps a good compromise would be the J65 since it was already in/would soon enter US service including USN service.  For instance, the F-84F Thunderstreak fitted with the  Wright J65-W-3 would first fly in mid 1950 and enter service in early 1954.  The FJ-3 Fury fitted with J65-W-2 would first fly July 1953 and enter service late 1954.  This is compared to the F7U-3 which first flew late December 1951 and enter service April 1954.  Therefore a J65 powered F7U should be doable.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2019, 01:01:32 AM »
In addition to better engines one positive change to the Cutlass that would have significant benefit would be to reconfigure the wing for better and more effective high lift/high drag devices, like Fowler flaps, or a variable incidence wing or the like. The position of the cockpit and the inability to increase the nose length or radome size all harken back to the long nose wheel strut needed to increase the angle of attack to allow take offs and landings are reasonable speeds. Additional engine power doesn't affect that, you need to get the drag up while also increasing lift to get the airspeed down to acceptable carrier values.

Possibly modern carrier landing speeds are now higher, obviating the need for the long struts or extreme lift/drag devices, which would be good for this planform.

If you could get the nose down to something approaching that of other aircraft of the period, then you have a lot of scope to ad d a longer nose, bigger radome, more fuel, second crewman, etc. But it all comes back to the wing and the landing speed.

By all accounts, once you got the thing in the air and if you could keep it together long enough, the Cutlass was a really good fighter with great roll rates (i.e. turning performance) and being a steady gun/bomb platform.

A strike version based on a better nose, two crew, more fuel and possibly higher thrust, yet dry (non-afterburning) turbofan engines (like the Spey) carrying a pile of bombs could be a very competitive aircraft through the 60s and 70s.

Paul

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2019, 01:12:50 AM »
I'm more interested in what version of Sparrow that photo is showing ----

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2019, 01:42:33 AM »
I'm more interested in what version of Sparrow that photo is showing ----


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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2019, 04:23:54 AM »
Thanks again Jon  :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2019, 06:30:00 AM »
I'm more interested in what version of Sparrow that photo is showing ----

AAM-N-2 (AIM-7A)
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-7.html

This >>LINK<< might also be of interest: scaled drawings and more of the Sparrow family.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2019, 11:09:35 PM »
What if you put an auxiliary rocket motor into the back of each main landing gear pod, sort of the same idea as the SEPR rocket system the Mirage III had:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPR_84

I would imagine that would give enough thrust at take off to allow for a shorter nose landing gear leg.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2019, 11:44:41 PM »
What if you put an auxiliary rocket motor into the back of each main landing gear pod, sort of the same idea as the SEPR rocket system the Mirage III had:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPR_84

I would imagine that would give enough thrust at take off to allow for a shorter nose landing gear leg.
Take off isn't really the problem, the catapults provide the additional thrust needed there.

It's landing speed that's the problem and the need for both low speed and, especially with the anemic engines of the time, the need to keep engine revs and therefore thrust high to allow safe go-arounds for bolters. This required high drag and high lift wings, which, for the Cutlass also required higher wing incidences to get the drag [profile needed to bring the speed down with the engines at much higher thrust levels than needed today.

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 09:18:36 AM »
A restoration shot of the rare Vought F7U-5 'Canarded Cutlass' at the Museum of Flight Restoration Center in Everett, WA. When first built, the F7U-5 was a case of 'too little, too late'. Only six airframes were completed - all of them spent their short careers with the Naval Air Test Center at NAS Patuxent River.

The canards solved many of the Cutlass' landing issues but continued use of the Westinghouse J46-WE-8B turbojets left the F7U-5 just as underpowered as the F7U-3. This was to be addressed in the full-production F7U-6 'Canarded Cutlass' powered by a single Wright J65 (a licensed Bristol-Siddeley Sapphire). The F7U-6 was also to have the extended 'delta ailevon' (from the proposed A2U-2 attack variant, aka U-389) and a fixed armament of only two 20 mm guns (but arranged symmetrically, unlike on the A2U).
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 09:46:10 PM »
Convert it into a carrier launched remote piloted cruise missile??

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2020, 12:13:57 AM »
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2020, 12:57:19 AM »
I was not aware of the -5. Google search did not provide any other photos. 

Do you know of any other photos which show the shape and location of the canards?
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2020, 02:17:22 AM »
Google search did not provide any other photos. 

There might be a reason for that... ;)
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2020, 03:43:52 AM »
Google search did not provide any other photos. 

There might be a reason for that... ;)

Yeah! Proof positive that the Google algorithm suppresses 'alternative facts'!  :icon_nif:
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2020, 09:43:47 AM »
I probably could have made matters clearer regarding the ultimate 'Canarded Cutlass' - the unbuilt F7U-6. Attached is a planview which shows some of the design options. This 'Super Cutlass' would have had a revised fuselage for the single engine and the canard surfaces of the F7U-5 variant. Vought offered the V-346X-A - with essentially F7U-3 type wing surfaces - or the V-346X-C - with extended 'delta ailevons' and a deeper inboard wing chord with revised flaps/speed brakes.

In either guise, the more powerful F7U-6 would have changed the reputation of the 'Gutless Cutlass' but by late 1953, other airframes had left the F7U behind. After the BuAer had reviewed and rejected the V-346X-A/V-346X-C proposal, further development of the Cutlass came to an end.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2020, 09:50:03 AM »
YES ! ! !      On into 60s-70s Cutlass.

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2020, 07:18:07 AM »
Would the increased inboard wing chord of the A2U-1 have had benefits for air combat applications?  Or would an air-superiority-oriented Cutlass have been better off sticking with the F7U-3-style planform?
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2020, 08:48:42 AM »
Good question. Since those trailing edge split flaps acted as speed brakes, I'm guessing that they wouldn't confer any manoeuvrability benefits (like some Fowler flap arrangements).
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 10:29:29 AM »
The gentleman and I had a good two hour chat on the Cutlass.   He felt it was a great aircraft plagued by its landing gear and hampered by its engines.

       
So with that in mind, I've already laid out some plans to redo the rotten nose gear and shorten it considerably, stretch the fore part of the fuselage to compensate for the de Havilland-like twin booms/full tailplane on the Hobbycraft kit.   Other projects are ahead of this one so it remains shelved.   As to service role?   USN ground attack.

An idea I've had for ages is to extend the forward fuselage and add canards. Engines would be RR Avons, as they're about the same size as the Westinghouse abominations.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2020, 02:47:06 AM »
Interesting thought.  Comparing engines:

J46-WE-8
(From definitive F7U-3)
Length: 198 in (5.0 m)
Diameter: 28 in (0.86 m)
Dry weight: 2116 lb (952.5 kg)
Maximum thrust: 3,980 pounds-force (17.7 kN) dry, 5,800 pounds-force (26 kN)) afterburning.
   Avon RA.3/Mk.100
(Early applications of RR Avon)
Length: 113.3 in (2.88 m)
Diameter: 41.5 in (1.05 m)
Dry weight: 3,768 lb (1,709 kg)
Maximum thrust: 6,500 pounds-force (28.9kN) dry
   Avon RA.28/Mk.207
(From Hawker Hunter)
Length: 123 in (3.12 m)
Diameter: 41.5 in (1.05 m)
Dry weight: 2,868 lb (1301 kg)
Maximum thrust: 10,050 pounds-force (44.7kN) dry
   Avon RB.146/Mk.301
(From /EE Lightning F.3)
Length: 126 in (3.2 m)
Diameter: 35.7 in (0.91 m)
Dry weight: 2,890 lb (1,310 kg)
Maximum thrust: 12,100 pounds-force (53.8kN) dry, 15,715 pounds-force (69.9 kN)) afterburning.

Therefore, comparing these (and forgetting that there is more to it than just engine sizes - e.g. structure etc etc), we can see that roughly an Avon will be 1.5 times 'fatter' but only ~60% as long as a J46.  They are heavier though being between 1.3 and 1.8 times heavier.  If we were to use the weight and diameter as the driving factors, one could roughly say that a single RR Avon could replace a J46 with thrust difference more than making up for it and that's without even going for the after burning version.  If you go for the after burning Mk.301 Avon it gets even better.
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2020, 03:54:41 AM »
At the risk of giving someone's techniques/secrets away, this is was a proposed Rolls Royce RB41 Nene powered Cutlass:

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2020, 06:18:37 AM »
At the risk of giving someone's techniques/secrets away, this is was a proposed Rolls Royce RB41 Nene powered Cutlass:

Cool find! Never seen that one before  ;)
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2020, 02:49:59 PM »
Vought V-367, also a single-engine Cutlass derivative albeit for the USAF Penetration Fighter project.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2020, 01:50:28 AM »
I wonder about a CAS/Attack version using a dirty big pusher prop
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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2020, 02:17:31 AM »
I would hazard a guess, that there's is nothing for prop tip clearance with the deck/ground ---  :P

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Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2020, 03:32:33 AM »
Bah!  Reality!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Vought F7U Cutlass
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2020, 04:27:20 AM »
I wonder about a CAS/Attack version using a dirty big pusher prop

I expect it to be taking cues from the Shinden.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?