Author Topic: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'  (Read 14918 times)

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« on: August 05, 2019, 08:21:24 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

It was a very interesting read, and could help make me do some serious contemplating.

One interesting topic of mention was the suggestion of a 'SLEP' (Shelf Life Extension Program)
for the RAAF's English Electric Canberra.

Realistically, one can not deny that the RAAF's Canberra's had plenty of life and potential left in them, with an in-flight refuelling receptor immediatly coming to mind.......

So I'd like to put it to the forum - how do you think the RAAF could have upgraded it's Canberra light bombers? Your input might go some way in encouraging me to mandate a Canberra SLEP Program into my Alternative ADF ORBAT!!


M.A.D

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 08:49:18 AM »
Upgrade the engines.  That is about all I can think of that they needed, really.   For use in low-level threat environments they were perfect.  Faced with SAMs they weren't, so perhaps some ECM and defensive gear but that might be too late.  I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 10:14:33 AM »
Very interesting idea! Low level strike or anti shipping missions. Definitely need a refueling probe and up to date efficient engines like you said. Did they already carry ECM or targeting pods?
Then there were the secondary roles. Refueller, ELINT and recon?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 10:17:31 AM by kerick »

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2019, 10:50:44 AM »
Upgrade the engines.  That is about all I can think of that they needed, really.   For use in low-level threat environments they were perfect.  Faced with SAMs they weren't, so perhaps some ECM and defensive gear but that might be too late.  I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?

Thanks for your reply Rickshaw
Do you have a suggestion for upgrading the engines?
ECM and defensive gear sounds a sensible proposition, especially with their participation and combat experience in the air war in VietNam.

Quote
I am assuming that you're talking about 1965 when they were meant to be replaced by the F-111?
You're spot on Rickshaw, I'm thinking GAF has the skill and knowledge to apply such a SLEP to the Canberra's they'd built, don't you think?


M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2019, 11:00:48 AM »
Very interesting idea! Low level strike or anti shipping missions. Definitely need a refueling probe and up to date efficient engines like you said. Did they already carry ECM or targeting pods?
Then there were the secondary roles. Refueller, ELINT and recon?

Thanks for your input kerick
I like your notion of low-level strike and anti-shipping!  In the 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage that I've quoted, the suggestion is for the Canberra to carry a couple of Swedish RB04 subsonic anti-ship missiles!
I guess it would require a radar to support this missile. I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04? I guess the same could apply to the Canberra using AGM-62 Walleye television-guided glide bomb, so as to give them a stand-off capability?

M.A.D

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 11:44:08 AM »
Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist and I doubt the RAAF would want to go the route of the RB-57F; so consider re-engining with J52's and get the same thrust in a smaller package.   If there was a second re-engining in the late Seventies or early Eighties, I could see dry F404s or RB199s being used.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 02:10:27 PM »
Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist and I doubt the RAAF would want to go the route of the RB-57F; so consider re-engining with J52's and get the same thrust in a smaller package.   If there was a second re-engining in the late Seventies or early Eighties, I could see dry F404s or RB199s being used.

Speys were available from approximate 1964 onwards.  Conways were available before that in the late 1950s.  Both were turbofan engines.

Basically you'd have at this point in time from the UK, the following engines.  All could fit into the wings of the Canberra (with a little bit of a shoehorn):


   Engine:   Rolls-Royce Avon R.A.7 Mk.109   Rolls Royce Conway Rco.12   Spey Mk 250   Rolls Royce Olympus 101
Length:   126 in (3,200 mm)   132.4 in (3,360 mm)   111 in (2,819.4 mm)   127.1 in (10.59 ft; 3.23 m)   
Diameter:    35.7 in (907 mm)   42 in (1,100 mm)   43.0 in (1092.2 mm)   40 in (3.3 ft; 1.0 m)   
Dry weight:    2,890 lb (1,310 kg)   4,544 lb (2,061 kg)   4,093 lb (1856 kg)   3,615 lb (1,640 kg)   
Maximum thrust:   7,400 lbf (36 kN)   17,500 lb (77.8 kN) @ 9980 rpm (100%)   12,140 lbf (54 kN)   11,000 lbf (49 kN)   
                                       
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:10:41 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2019, 10:12:24 PM »
Yep! definitely upgrade the engines ----   >:D

Just a thought; for the time frame you are considering, suitably sized turbofan engines do not yet exist

Well I would suggest there was ---   ;D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 10:19:31 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 02:24:14 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

Can you post a link to this please.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2019, 02:41:00 AM »
I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04?


Well they could support AS.30s which isn't that far removed in size:





All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2019, 03:35:11 AM »
Just finish reading an interesting 'What If' about RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage, from which some of this fine forums members appeared to have participated.

Can you post a link to this please.


Yeah no worries mate:
https://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/512-47952.aspx#startofcomments

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2019, 03:42:54 AM »
I wonder if the wing of the Canberra would support the weight of a RB04?

Well they could support AS.30s which isn't that far removed in size:

Wow, some cool photos Greg, and yes you're correct - RB04: 600 kg (1,300 lb)
AS.30: 520 kg (1,146 lb)

I'm assuming these pictures are RAF Canberra's, what with carrying/trialing of AS.30's?


M.A.D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 04:17:18 AM by M.A.D »

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2019, 04:56:48 AM »
The RB.168 Spey 202 OAL includes the afterburner, which obviously isn't going to be used in
a Canberra installation. The 250/251, as used in Nimrod, OAL is 117".
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2019, 10:06:44 AM »
The RB.168 Spey 202 OAL includes the afterburner, which obviously isn't going to be used in
a Canberra installation. The 250/251, as used in Nimrod, OAL is 117".

Thank you, Jon.  Much appreciated.  Now corrected.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 02:07:41 AM »
I'm assuming these pictures are RAF Canberra's, what with carrying/trialing of AS.30's?

Correct.  The aircraft shown is RAF Canberra B.15 WH961
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2019, 02:24:32 AM »
Did anyone notice that two of the armourers are wearing flip-flops or barefooted? My NCO would have cut my @(&%*$#&^% off if I did that.

I like the idea of the AS.30.. Noted for a future build.
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2019, 02:44:03 AM »
How about a Canberra with a pair of AS.34 Kormorans (600Kg) or AM39 Exocet (670Kg) and dedicated ASW radar in the nose (possibly a Thomson-CSF Agave radar or other)?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2019, 09:46:43 AM »
Did anyone notice that two of the armourers are wearing flip-flops or barefooted? My NCO would have cut my @(&%*$#&^% off if I did that.

Thongs - AKA "Japanese Safety Boots" - were not the usual wear.  However, there were occasional circumstances which would have allowed them to be worn - Tinea for one.   Shortness of time with an armouring task being required "right now!"  Is another.   However, it would be unusual to see them on duty wearing them.   I have a picture of a Centurion crewman in Vietnam unloading his vehicle after it has suffered a mine strike of 20 Pdr Ammunition (which while his tank hadn't been penetrated it had distorted the floor to crease/crush ammunition stored under the turret fighting compartment).  He is wearing thongs.


Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2019, 10:09:21 AM »
How about a Canberra with a pair of AS.34 Kormorans (600Kg) or AM39 Exocet (670Kg) and dedicated ASW radar in the nose (possibly a Thomson-CSF Agave radar or other)?
1980's or mid/late 1970's update?  At least for the Agave radar since it was not flown until the mid-1970's.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2019, 02:44:09 AM »
I was thinking mid-late '70s.  The Exocet, Kormoran and Agave were all in the same timeframe there.  That said, other radars might be added might include something like the AI.23 Airpass II "Blue Parrot" as used on the Blackburn Buccaneer.  This could add in not only weapon guidance but also terrain following.  Hell, for that matter, why not consider a developed version of the Canberra as an alternative/compliment to the Bucc'.  One could also give it not only ASW missiles but also maybe a pair of AIM-9s for self defence.  If done in a later '80s scenario, one might even add in Kormoran 2s or Sea Eagles.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2019, 03:16:40 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2019, 03:29:25 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

Good find Robert. They are AS.30s.

Look at step 32 in the instructions.

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/English-Electric-Canberra-B-I-8-1538951.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:45:02 AM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2019, 04:11:40 AM »
Where would be a practical location for an In-Flight Refueling probe to be mounted as part of a SLEP upgrade for the Canberra and B-57?
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2019, 05:29:44 AM »
The Airfix 'new tool' 1/72 Canberra B(I).8 kit I've got, has a couple of large Air to Surface missiles that hang off the outer wing pylons. I can't remember what they're called though ---  :-X

Good find Robert. They are AS.30s.

Look at step 32 in the instructions.

https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/6/4/122364-67-instructions.pdf
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/English-Electric-Canberra-B-I-8-1538951.html

Yep, those are the one Carl  :smiley:

I'd have thought if they can carry/use that type, then the other types suggested would be no problem.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: RAAF English Electric Canberra 'SLEP Program'
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2019, 09:49:35 AM »
I was thinking mid-late '70s.  The Exocet, Kormoran and Agave were all in the same timeframe there.  That said, other radars might be added might include something like the AI.23 Airpass II "Blue Parrot" as used on the Blackburn Buccaneer.  This could add in not only weapon guidance but also terrain following.  Hell, for that matter, why not consider a developed version of the Canberra as an alternative/compliment to the Bucc'.  One could also give it not only ASW missiles but also maybe a pair of AIM-9s for self defence.  If done in a later '80s scenario, one might even add in Kormoran 2s or Sea Eagles.
"Blue Parrot", AS30's, and dry Spey's for a mid-1960's update?  With the Agave and later ASM's for a late-1970's follow-on CILOP program (with or without another engine replacement)?