Author Topic: Avro CF-100 Variants  (Read 10002 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2018, 11:26:26 AM »
How easy the Orenda could be converted to a turbofan is another question.  If it's a single-spool engine
It was, indeed, a single spool engine. And, yes, it's really not possible to convert it to a turbofan without adding a second spool, the mass flow and speed requirements pretty much demand a second spool.

As a WHIF, we can imagine that after the Orenda 11 a new engine was created that used many Orenda parts and stages, but was designed around 2 spools and was a forward-mounted, low bypass turbofan.

In a more real-life game of what if, one could take an Orenda engine and do what GE did for the J-79, add a separate fan and turbine stage at the back of the engine, "simply" lengthening the whole thing by the added turbine stages and fan stage. This does work and was in service on the Convair 990 with CJ805-23 engines.

For the model it would reverse the short fan cowl, putting it at the aft end of the engine.

Paul
That could be done, but I admit to still being partial to my idea of an intermediate stage between Orenda and Iroquois that initially served as a two-spool testbed and was later put into production for "special" CF-100 variants and other special projects.  Basically the Orenda 11 that tankmodeler described.  I could see a later variant of the high-altitude CF-100 getting powered by a dry turbofan version of the Iroquois (after all, P&W did scheme, and did component testing on, a JT4D turbofan version of the J75; just never got any sales so didn't build any).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 06:51:05 AM »
How easy the Orenda could be converted to a turbofan is another question.  If it's a single-spool engine
It was, indeed, a single spool engine. And, yes, it's really not possible to convert it to a turbofan without adding a second spool, the mass flow and speed requirements pretty much demand a second spool.

As a WHIF, we can imagine that after the Orenda 11 a new engine was created that used many Orenda parts and stages, but was designed around 2 spools and was a forward-mounted, low bypass turbofan.

In a more real-life game of what if, one could take an Orenda engine and do what GE did for the J-79, add a separate fan and turbine stage at the back of the engine, "simply" lengthening the whole thing by the added turbine stages and fan stage. This does work and was in service on the Convair 990 with CJ805-23 engines.

For the model it would reverse the short fan cowl, putting it at the aft end of the engine.

Paul
That could be done, but I admit to still being partial to my idea of an intermediate stage between Orenda and Iroquois that initially served as a two-spool testbed and was later put into production for "special" CF-100 variants and other special projects.  Basically the Orenda 11 that tankmodeler described.  I could see a later variant of the high-altitude CF-100 getting powered by a dry turbofan version of the Iroquois (after all, P&W did scheme, and did component testing on, a JT4D turbofan version of the J75; just never got any sales so didn't build any).

Interesting twist to the thread this, because for my Avro Atlantic which in my alt-history world, was built by Avro Canada for Avro GB and also supplied it to the RCAF as the CC-137 Husky instead of the Boeing 707. My story has it powered by four Iroquois without afterburners.  This could fit in here.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:06:13 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 11:17:16 PM »
What about shifting to the two-spool Orenda PS.13 Iroquois for the basis for your turbofan derivative? Diameters for the Iroquois and Orenda 14 are the same - 42 inches.
I suspect an Iroquois turbofan would be vastly overpowering for a CF-100 airframe, no matter what you did to strengthen it. At 19,350 lbf dry, it's got 3 times the dry thrust of an Orenda 9. A fan would likely increase thrust above that with no reheat, just like the JT-3 to JT-3D which went from ~11k lbf to ~17K lbf with the addition of the low bypass fan.

The 2 spool "scaled down" Iroquois concept turned into a low bypass turbofan would very likely have been the development route, not unlike several P&W engines of the late 50s. If it ended up around 15-16k lbf thrust you'd have a very robust military turbofan a little smaller than the Yank TF-33 and pretty suitable for a Clunk-sized bomb truck or longer ranged recce bird.

Paul

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 04:54:18 AM »
Via Facebook.  CF-100, Mk5M, Serial No. 18639 with SPARROW 2 missiles loaded on the under wing racks. Photo is courtesy of Don Norrie for my collection. 1961 Primrose.
Benoit Thibeault‎

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2020, 02:36:09 AM »
Difficult to see.  Any better photos?
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2020, 02:43:52 AM »
No others Greg. Taken from a FB post. Probably a cropped/enlarged from a not a great original.
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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2020, 02:52:37 AM »
Well, let's see what I can find:



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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2020, 02:58:11 AM »
I think I prefer the look of the earlier Mk.2 ones:




A swept wing version would look good too but not in the style of the real world CF-103:




I wonder how one would go bashing the wings from a F-86 Sabre or even F-100 Super Sabre onto a CF-100?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2020, 03:24:07 AM »

I wonder how one would go bashing the wings from a F-86 Sabre or even F-100 Super Sabre onto a CF-100?

I would say they're more like FJ-4 wings Greg

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2020, 03:30:48 AM »
You mis-understand me I think.  I wasn't trying to replicate the CF-103.  I actually don't like its look.  I was speculating about doing a swept wing CF-100 with F-86 or F-100 wings instead.
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 04:32:15 AM »
Doable, I think.  Start with A-5 Vigilante wings but yes still similar to the CF-103. Kit was started so could not change tail.

Wing area was 591 sq ft (54.9 m2) so don't give up too much or you may get into trouble.


CF-103A
by Big Gimper, on Flickr

Note A-5C wing area: 701 sq ft (65.1 m2).

« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 04:36:43 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 04:41:13 AM »
To support your MK.2 comment Greg, if someone were to make a new mold kit allowing you to built the MK 1 to the Mk 6, they would sell millions!!

CF-100 Mk 1 : The first two prototypes.
CF-100 Mk 1P : Proposed photo-reconnaissance version. Not built.

CF-100 Mk 2 : Ten pre-production aircraft.
CF-100 Mk 2T : Dual control training version of the CF-100 Mk 2. Two built.

CF-100 Mk 3 : Two-seat all-weather long-range interceptor fighter aircraft. First production version for the RCAF. Eight .5-inch Browning M3 guns (200 rounds per gun) in a forward firing ventral gun pack. 70 built.
CF-100 Mk 3A : CF-100 Mk 3 sub-type, powered by two Orenda 2 turbojet engines. 21 built.
CF-100 Mk 3B : CF-100 Mk 3 sub-type, powered by two Orenda 8 turbojet engines. 45 built.
CF-100 Mk 3CT : One CF-100 Mk 3 converted into a dual control training aircraft. Later redesignated CF-100 Mk 3D.

CF-100 Mk 4 : Two-seat all-weather long-range interceptor fighter aircraft. Eight .5-inch Browning M3 guns (200 rounds per gun) in a forward firing ventral gun pack. Plus two wingtip pods of 29 x 70-mm (2.75 in) "Mighty Mouse" fin-folding aerial rockets. One pre-production aircraft.
CF-100 Mk 4A : CF-100 Mk 4 sub-type, powered by two Orenda 9 turbojet engines. 137 built.
CF-100 Mk 4B : CF-100 Mk 4 sub-type, powered by two Orenda 11 turbojet engines. 141 built.
CF-100 Mk 4X : Proposed version of the CF-100 Mk 4. Not built.

CF-100 Mk 5 : Two-seat all-weather long-range interceptor fighter aircraft, powered by two Orenda 11 or Orenda 14 turbojet engines. Two wingtip pods of 29 x 70-mm (2.75 in) "Mighty Mouse" fin-folding aerial rockets. 332 built.
CF-100 Mk 5D : Small number of CF-100 Mk 5s converted into ECM (Electronic Countermeasures), EW (Electronic Warfare) aircraft.
CF-100 Mk 5M : Small number of CF-100 Mk 5s equipped to carry the AIM-7 Sparrow II air-to-air missiles.

CF-100 Mk 6 : Proposed version armed with the AIM-7 Sparrow II air-to-air missile. Not built.
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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 04:43:31 AM »
Yeah, up until the Mk.4 they looked much better:

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 04:44:30 AM »
F-100 wings and tail on a Mk.3 would look good:

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Offline finsrin

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 05:01:37 AM »
After seeing A-5 wings, figure there be lot of compatible wings and can scale-o-rama as needed.  F-15, F-16, A-4 come to mind.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2020, 05:58:20 AM »
March 14, 1950 Jimmy Doolittle takes a look at the first prototype Canuck 18101 CF-100 at Malton, Ontario. ( photo RCAF )

Jimmy likes the CF-100.

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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Avro CF-100 Variants
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 12:42:12 AM »
F-100 wings and tail on a Mk.3 would look good:
They'd look good, yes, but the Clunk was a big aircraft. You might need 1/48 wings on a 1/72 fuselage to get the right amount of lift.

Then add a new sleeker nose to house the needed radar, swept back tail and probably new nacelles with afterburning Orenda's to get that big-asssed bird to over Mach 1. Said nacelles would also need area ruling as well, of course.

All of which points out why the Mk 3 never really went anywhere.  ;D

Paul