Pilatus Trainers Ideas and Inspiration

[GTX_Admin]

A thread for discussions around the Pilatus P-1, P-2, PC-7, PC-9, PC-21

[GTX_Admin]

[size=150]Lockheed Martin Team Achieves First PC-21 Flight Under Australia's Air 5428 Pilot Training System Program[/size]
(Source: Lockheed Martin Australia; issued July 21, 2016)

STANS, Switzerland --- Lockheed Martin and Pilatus Aircraft Ltd have successfully completed the initial production test flight of the first PC-21 aircraft destined for the Australian Defence Force under the AIR 5428 Pilot Training System program.

Under a contract signed in December 2015, the initial seven-year program is valued at AU$1.2 billion. Performance-based options for up to 25 years will provide the opportunity to extend the length and increase the value of the total contract. Lockheed Martin leads the delivery of an integrated solution tailored for all future pilots for the Royal Australian Air Force, Royal Australian Navy and the Australian Army.

"This is a true testament to our teammate Pilatus and a proven aircraft that will form the backbone of future pilot training for the Australian Defence Force for the next 25 years. We offer our congratulations on this first significant step," said Raydon Gates, Chief Executive, Lockheed Martin Australia and New Zealand.

This first PC-21, registered as A54-001, will be handed over to the Royal Australian Air Force at East Sale in June 2017 after completion of testing and verification work in both Switzerland and Australia.

"This initial flight of the first Australian PC-21, only seven months after contract signature, is a remarkable achievement and illustrates both the commitment of Pilatus and the hard work of all those involved in the project," said Oscar J. Schwenk, Chairman of Pilatus.

Under the prime contract, Lockheed Martin will provide overall project management for the pilot training system and deliver a family of integrated ground-based training technologies. Pilatus Aircraft will provide PC-21 turboprop training aircraft and through-life engineering and airworthiness support. Hawker Pacific will provide maintenance services and fleet support and leverage its established supply chain in Australia.

The PC-21s for Australia will form the backbone of future pilot training for the Australian Defence Force for the next 25 years.


Headquartered in Canberra, Lockheed Martin Australia is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Lockheed Martin Corporation. The company employs more than 1,000 people in Australia and New Zealand working on a wide range of major programs spanning the aerospace, defence and civil sectors.

-ends-

Now if only there was a 1/48 kit available...

[GTX_Admin]

Even though we have the photo above, I really like the scheme shown in this artwork:

[elmayerle]

Does this include PC-9 derivatives such as the Textron Aviation T-6 "Texan II"?

[GTX_Admin]

Yes.

[KiwiZac]

Dammit Greg, I was determined not to like the PC-21 based on what I've already seen, but that Roulettes painting...wow!

[GTX_Admin]

New photo of first RAAf PC-21:

[kitnut617]

So what is the difference between the PC-9 and PC-21 ?

This is my Super PC-9 project, calling it a Hawker De Havilland Winjeel II, based on the Aeroclub 1/72 PC-9 kit (which has RAAF markings)

[GTX_Admin]

Well, the PC21 is some 20 odd years newer and includes a far bigger engine for one.  Specs below:

PC-9 Length: 10.14 m (33 ft 3 in) Wingspan: 10.125 m (33 ft 3 in) Height: 3.26 m (10 ft 8 in) Wing area: 16.29 m2 (175.3 sq ft) Empty weight: 1,725 kg (3,803 lb) Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-62 turboprop, 857 kW (1,149 hp) flat-rated at 708 kW (950 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 593 km/h (368 mph; 320 kn) Stall speed: 143 km/h (89 mph; 77 kn) EAS flaps and gear up, 128 km/h (80 mph; 69 kn) flaps and gear down Range: 1,537 km (955 mi; 830 nmi) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (37,992 ft) Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,090 ft/min) g limits: + 7.0 g to −3.5 g

PC-21 Length: 11.233 m (36 ft 11 in) Wingspan: 9.108 m (29 ft 11 in) Height: 3.749 m (12 ft 4 in) Wing area: 15.221 m² (163.848 ft²) Empty weight: 2,270 kg (5,005 lb) Max. takeoff weight: 3,100 kg (aerobatic) / 4,250 kg (utility) (6,834 lb (aerobatic) / 9,370 lb (utility)) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68B Turboprop engine, 1,200 kW (1,600 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 685 km/h (370 knots, 428 mph) Stall speed: 170 km/h (92 knots, 106.25 mph) gear and flaps up (20 km/h less with flaps and gear down) Range: 1,333 km (720 nm, 828 miles) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (38,000 ft) Rate of climb: 1,219 m/min (4,000 ft/min) g limits: + 8.0 g to – 4.0 (aerobatic) / + 5.0 g to – 2.5 g (utility)

[KiwiZac]

Plus, you know, the airframe's a new design.

[GTX_Admin]

Plus, you know, the airframe's a new design.

And the wing...

[GTX_Admin]

Random idea:  how about a 4 seat version of the PC-21 for the civilian market?

[elmayerle]

Well, the PC21 is some 20 odd years newer and includes a far bigger engine for one.  Specs below:

PC-9 Length: 10.14 m (33 ft 3 in) Wingspan: 10.125 m (33 ft 3 in) Height: 3.26 m (10 ft 8 in) Wing area: 16.29 m2 (175.3 sq ft) Empty weight: 1,725 kg (3,803 lb) Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-62 turboprop, 857 kW (1,149 hp) flat-rated at 708 kW (950 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 593 km/h (368 mph; 320 kn) Stall speed: 143 km/h (89 mph; 77 kn) EAS flaps and gear up, 128 km/h (80 mph; 69 kn) flaps and gear down Range: 1,537 km (955 mi; 830 nmi) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (37,992 ft) Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,090 ft/min) g limits: + 7.0 g to −3.5 g

PC-21 Length: 11.233 m (36 ft 11 in) Wingspan: 9.108 m (29 ft 11 in) Height: 3.749 m (12 ft 4 in) Wing area: 15.221 m² (163.848 ft²) Empty weight: 2,270 kg (5,005 lb) Max. takeoff weight: 3,100 kg (aerobatic) / 4,250 kg (utility) (6,834 lb (aerobatic) / 9,370 lb (utility)) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68B Turboprop engine, 1,200 kW (1,600 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 685 km/h (370 knots, 428 mph) Stall speed: 170 km/h (92 knots, 106.25 mph) gear and flaps up (20 km/h less with flaps and gear down) Range: 1,333 km (720 nm, 828 miles) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (38,000 ft) Rate of climb: 1,219 m/min (4,000 ft/min) g limits: + 8.0 g to – 4.0 (aerobatic) / + 5.0 g to – 2.5 g (utility)

Interesting, the PC-21 uses the same basic engine as the T-6 Texan II where the Texan II has it fitted to an airframe that, aft of the firewall, retains the lines of the PC-9 (but not the structure, T-6 had to meet FAA birdstrike requirements and has a different, and stronger, structure).  Cowling contours forward of the firewall are all new for the T-6.  I wonder how they match those in the PC-21?

[KiwiZac]

Plus, you know, the airframe's a new design.

And the wing...

Call me old-fashioned, I figured "the airframe" encompassed "wing" 

[kitnut617]

Well, the PC21 is some 20 odd years newer and includes a far bigger engine for one.  Specs below:

PC-9 Length: 10.14 m (33 ft 3 in) Wingspan: 10.125 m (33 ft 3 in) Height: 3.26 m (10 ft 8 in) Wing area: 16.29 m2 (175.3 sq ft) Empty weight: 1,725 kg (3,803 lb) Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-62 turboprop, 857 kW (1,149 hp) flat-rated at 708 kW (950 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 593 km/h (368 mph; 320 kn) Stall speed: 143 km/h (89 mph; 77 kn) EAS flaps and gear up, 128 km/h (80 mph; 69 kn) flaps and gear down Range: 1,537 km (955 mi; 830 nmi) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (37,992 ft) Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,090 ft/min) g limits: + 7.0 g to −3.5 g

PC-21 Length: 11.233 m (36 ft 11 in) Wingspan: 9.108 m (29 ft 11 in) Height: 3.749 m (12 ft 4 in) Wing area: 15.221 m² (163.848 ft²) Empty weight: 2,270 kg (5,005 lb) Max. takeoff weight: 3,100 kg (aerobatic) / 4,250 kg (utility) (6,834 lb (aerobatic) / 9,370 lb (utility)) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68B Turboprop engine, 1,200 kW (1,600 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 685 km/h (370 knots, 428 mph) Stall speed: 170 km/h (92 knots, 106.25 mph) gear and flaps up (20 km/h less with flaps and gear down) Range: 1,333 km (720 nm, 828 miles) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (38,000 ft) Rate of climb: 1,219 m/min (4,000 ft/min) g limits: + 8.0 g to – 4.0 (aerobatic) / + 5.0 g to – 2.5 g (utility)

I don't get it, it's 1 1/2 times more powerful and it's 1200 lb heavier yet it's only 2 knots faster, it's stall speed is nearly 17 knots higher, it's range is 230 nm less, it's rate of climb is less and the service ceiling is the same. Wouldn't it be better just to keep the PC-9 and save some money

[The Big Gimper]

Well, the PC21 is some 20 odd years newer and includes a far bigger engine for one.  Specs below:

I don't get it, it's 1 1/2 times more powerful and it's 1200 lb heavier yet it's only 2 knots faster, it's stall speed is nearly 17 knots higher, it's range is 230 nm less, it's rate of climb is less and the service ceiling is the same. Wouldn't it be better just to keep the PC-9 and save some money

Overweight aircrew? 

[Old Wombat]

Well, the PC21 is some 20 odd years newer and includes a far bigger engine for one.  Specs below:

PC-9 Length: 10.14 m (33 ft 3 in) Wingspan: 10.125 m (33 ft 3 in) Height: 3.26 m (10 ft 8 in) Wing area: 16.29 m2 (175.3 sq ft) Empty weight: 1,725 kg (3,803 lb) Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-62 turboprop, 857 kW (1,149 hp) flat-rated at 708 kW (950 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 593 km/h (368 mph; 320 kn) Stall speed: 143 km/h (89 mph; 77 kn) EAS flaps and gear up, 128 km/h (80 mph; 69 kn) flaps and gear down Range: 1,537 km (955 mi; 830 nmi) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (37,992 ft) Rate of climb: 20.8 m/s (4,090 ft/min) g limits: + 7.0 g to −3.5 g

PC-21 Length: 11.233 m (36 ft 11 in) Wingspan: 9.108 m (29 ft 11 in) Height: 3.749 m (12 ft 4 in) Wing area: 15.221 m² (163.848 ft²) Empty weight: 2,270 kg (5,005 lb) Max. takeoff weight: 3,100 kg (aerobatic) / 4,250 kg (utility) (6,834 lb (aerobatic) / 9,370 lb (utility)) Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68B Turboprop engine, 1,200 kW (1,600 shp) Performance: Maximum speed: 685 km/h (370 knots, 428 mph) Stall speed: 170 km/h (92 knots, 106.25 mph) gear and flaps up (20 km/h less with flaps and gear down) Range: 1,333 km (720 nm, 828 miles) Service ceiling: 11,580 m (38,000 ft) Rate of climb: 1,219 m/min (4,000 ft/min) g limits: + 8.0 g to – 4.0 (aerobatic) / + 5.0 g to – 2.5 g (utility)

I don't get it, it's 1 1/2 times more powerful and it's 1200 lb heavier yet it's only 2 knots faster, it's stall speed is nearly 17 knots higher, it's range is 230 nm less, it's rate of climb is less and the service ceiling is the same. Wouldn't it be better just to keep the PC-9 and save some money

Actually, its top speed is 50kn faster; stall speed is 15kn higher (gear & flaps up), 12 kn higher (gear & flaps down); range is 110nmi less; it also has 1.09m² less wing area; but its maximum utility take-off weight is 1,050kg higher.

[GTX_Admin]

Included here since it is, in essence, a development of the PC-9:

[GTX_Admin]

Mmmmm.... :

[perttime]

I recall a 'shopped image of a trainer turned into a single-seater. Tucano? That might work with Pilatus types too.

[GTX_Admin]

Now we have the complicated scheme to challenge someone to do a decal set if only there was a kit...in 1/48!!!




New RAAF Roulettes Scheme

[kitnut617]

Now we have the complicated scheme to challenge someone to do a decal set if only there was a kit...in 1/48!!!

There's a 1/48 PC-9 vacuform kit done by a company called Canada Modelcraft but you might have to look around for one.

[GTX_Admin]

I already have a PC-9 kit.  What I am after is a PC-21.

[apophenia]

The rumoured 1/48 PC-21 still doesn't show up in the Hobby Boss online catalogue 

[kitnut617]

I already have a PC-9 kit.  What I am after is a PC-21.

Oops! my bad ----

[GTX_Admin]

Don't worry - common enough mistake.

Here is a PC-21 alongside a PC-9:

[GTX_Admin]

There is a 1/72 kit available:



But now 1/48 I'm afraid.

Going back to the earlier post, I note that Ronin are already offering these decals:

[kitnut617]

There is a 1/72 kit available:

Now where can you get that ? Never heard of that outfit before --

[The Big Gimper]

There is a 1/72 kit available:

Now where can you get that ? Never heard of that outfit before --

Hannants has it in stock: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/3DB72101

[GTX_Admin]

There are some on eBay as well.

[Volkodav]

Any news on what the new FAC type to replace the 4 SQN PC-9s will be?

[GTX_Admin]

Any news on what the new FAC type to replace the 4 SQN PC-9s will be?

The 4 SQN ones (example below) are used to train forward air controllers and not specifically to have a dedicated combat role.  As such, one could conceivably see the PC-21 adopt the role in the future  and I have seen reference to this being the case with 4 airframes.  As such, a PC-21 may well be seen in something similar to the scheme below.  If only there was a proper kit available.

[perttime]

Looking at PC-21 information on the Pilatus site and on Wikipedia, my impression is that the systems are totally geared towards fighter pilot training, with

"embedded simulation and training suite, which provides cross-platform cockpit emulation, weapons simulation, stores management system, simulated radar and electronic warfare, a tactical situation display, and data link functionality. (...)
The systems of the forward and rear cockpits can be 'de-coupled' between the student and instructor; the instructor may exercise real-time manipulation of the student's displays, sensor performance, and system modes such as to create synthetic air-to-air radar targets, artificial non-safety critical system failures, and controlled data degradation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-21#Design

The software is "open architecture", though, so it should be possible to program it for real missions too.

[Rickshaw]

All "open architecture" means is that it uses common programming languages which are available and separate to the architecture on which they run.   In other words it could be using something as easy as HTML and Java to create a synthetic display for the student with inputs from the instructor.  In the past, propriatory languages/interfaces/architecture wedded computer systems to a single supplier.  Since about 2000, the computer world has moved away from single source suppliers towads the "open architecture" world.

[GTX_Admin]

The last PC-21s look good - if only there was a 1/48 kit available:

[Rickshaw]

I wish there was a cheap 1/72 kit available, Greg.

Gosh, that is quite a pointy nose there, on that fella...

[Kerick]

The last PC-21s look good - if only there was a 1/48 kit available:

Zoom in on the desk top model. Give anyone any ideas? Of course I would need three kits.

[kitnut617]

Gosh, that is quite a pointy nose there, on that fella...

That's the 'go fast' option Brian      

[jcf]

Just trainers? The Pilatus PC-12 (U-28A US designation) is pretty damned cool, and the PC-24 jet has a unique look.
Gail flew in a PC-12 a couple of years ago, from Albuquerque, NM to Silver City, NM.




U-28A

[Volkodav]

My brothers work has their PC-24 now, supplementing their PC-12s.

[GTX_Admin]

Just a cool image:

[GTX_Admin]

Whilst there has been comment about the RAAF F/A-18s being sold to a private company (air USA) for future operations, it has been less reported that 6 RAAF PC-9s have also been sold to another private company, Blue Air Training, for similar:  https://blueairtraining.com/pc9/

[GTX_Admin]

Just a bunch of photos...I wish there was a 1/48 kit to go with...sigh. (click to see larger versions)

[GTX_Admin]

First Spanish PC-21...and yet still no 1/48 kit.

[GTX_Admin]

Cool Pilatus P-2 shots:





Click for bigger versions

[elmayerle]

Since it derives from the PC-9, is discussion of the Textron Aviation/Beech/Raytheon Aircraft T-6 Texan II family suited to this thread?

Side note: I think Textron missed a good opportunity when they reunited the two surviving companies founded by the founders of Travel Air who split up to have their own companies (Cessna and Beech, Stearman got absorbed into Boeing years ago).  They should have used "Travel Air" in the division's name.

[GTX_Admin]

Since it derives from the PC-9, is discussion of the Textron Aviation/Beech/Raytheon Aircraft T-6 Texan II family suited to this thread?

Most definitely - see Reply #17