Author Topic: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 174140 times)

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #375 on: October 10, 2019, 03:39:37 PM »
If they'd bought a new carrier then, maybe we'd still have one now (a proper carrier, that is). :icon_crap:

The US were very keep to supply us with an Essex in at least CVS configuration and the Brits offered us Hermes in 68, with Victorious and Eagle also being available following the decision to get out of the carrier game.  The ships were on offer for next to bugger all, I believe possibly for less than it cost to refit Melbourne to operate Skyhawks and Trackers and improve her air-conditioning. They required more crew than Melbourne but less than Melbourne and Sydney (as a troop transport) combined.

Not quite.  An ESSEX class or an EAGLE required approximately 3,000 men.  A MELBOURNE 1,350 men.   You could have had one ESSEX or EAGLE for two smaller carriers as far as manpower requirements, approximately.  An ESSEX or an EAGLE would have been more expensive to run than MELBOURNE or SYDNEY.    SYDNEY in particular had essentially a skeleton crew, without air Ops or air complement.   I am unsure of costs.   EAGLE would have been cheaper to purchase than an ESSEX I suspect but more expensive to maintain.

Quote
The argument about money is flawed as Australia has consistently gone for the cheaper option while wearing rose tinted glasses, causing delays, capability gaps, followed by costly mitigation.  The number of times a fully costed, risk assessed and engineered option has been knocked back in favour of something that promises the world but never delivers the promised capability is quite shocking.  Even the F-111 buy was a cost cutting exercise, buy 24 (plus 6 recce) high end airframes for two squadrons instead of 36+ perfectly good enough airframes in three squadrons, supported by tankers.  I could be wrong but I believe the F-111 ended up costing more than the Phantom fall back option would have.

Hindsight is wonderful.   The RAAF wanted an up-to-date replacement for the Canberra and the F-111 was the only game in town that fulfilled that, in their opinion.   The Buccaneer was too naval, the Mirage IV was not yet available.   The problem was the F-111 was reaching too far with it's variable geometry wing.   Treasury wanted value for money.   The F-111 appear to offer that.   Both the RAAF and Treasury were betrayed by the technology.

Quote
Imagine 150 Phantoms replacing Canberra, Sea Venom, supplementing, then replacing Mirage. Not cheap but what would the savings have been on the support systems side of things?  Phantom was much more capable than Mirage or Skyhawk, and good enough that the RAAF wanted to keep the leased Es, even after the F-111 arrived.  Phantom would have needed tankers to match the F-111s range but we ended up converting 707s anyway, so the KC-135 would not have been a significant extra cost anyway. Had we gone for Spey Phantoms, or B/J/N/S the 707 with hose and drogue would have been perfectly adequate anyway.

Problem was numbers of 707s.  There simply weren't that many. The RAAF ended up with the last discards form QANTAS.   The RAAF ended up with three airframes, hardly enough to sustain even a flight on a long distance mission.   What we needed were about a dozen or more airframes.  That would have meant purchasing them, something the Treasury wasn't interested in doing.

Quote
I'm not pulling this stuff out of a random orifice, it was proposed and rejected, with the options selected instead delivering less capability, while still costing a significant amount up front, then even more down the track as the reality of sustainability, obsolescence and capability short falls hit.  Modernised Melbourne was barely capable of operating Skyhawks and required the cannibalisation of retired carriers (Bonaventure and Essexs) to keep her operational, a Squadron of Mirages had to be disbanded to sustain the shrinking fleet and even then there was a period of years in the late 70s early 80s where neither their guns or air to air missiles were operable.  Then there were the F-111s teething issues that took years to sort out. None of these would have occurred had the Phantom been acquired and Melbourne replaced in the 60s.

No one is suggesting that you're pulling it out of your bum, mate.   Yes, it was proposed but the rejection occurred on what were considered by Treasure to be good reasons.  Look, Treasury were a bunch of bastards and are still a bunch of bastards.  They didn't believe the Leopards were a good purchase and kept trying to retire them early, so much so that Army lied in Senate estimate committee hearings to downplay how much it cost to keep and maintain them.   What the RAAF and the RAN needed was a good enough reason to get it past Treasury and they failed on that, each and every time the proposed something.    It would have been much easier to shoot all the Treasury officials and have a coup.  ;)


Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #376 on: October 10, 2019, 04:02:57 PM »
It would have been much easier to shoot all the Treasury officials and have a coup.  ;)

Sounds like a "Plan"! 8) ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline ScranJ51

  • Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #377 on: October 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM »
Shot Treasury and have a Coup?


Yup, I'm IN!!!!!!!!


 ;)
Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #378 on: November 10, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »
Some old inspiration from Richard:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #379 on: November 10, 2019, 04:05:19 PM »
Reading David Shackletons "The Impact of the Charles F. Adams Class Guided Missile Destroyers on the Royal Australian Navy" the RAN CN tour of the UK and US he was specifically banned from discussing aircraft carriers and was to look at guided missile destroyers only.  In his meeting with Arleigh Bourke the US CNS offered Australia an Essex straight up, completely unsolicited.

https://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/sea_power_series_impact_of_charles_f_adams_class_on_ran.pdf#page=9
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 08:49:09 PM by Volkodav »

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #380 on: November 10, 2019, 06:22:52 PM »

In part yes.  Oil was first discovered in Australia ~1890.  It wasn't really developed as an industry until the late 1960s.  Problem is, the oil we have is not very good for refining into dieso/petrol.  It has heavy suphides present and that causes "knock" quite badly.   While we do refine a bit of it, it is more economic to use the by-products first - natural gas and LPG and import refined products (dieso/petrol)  from overseas.   This has caused a significant problem in that we have shut down most of our refineries and have little in the way of fuel reserves available to us.  The Government has been severely criticised for this and for good reason.

I'll further refine my comment.  What we need is some new mineral discovery and a market to sell it in easily and with great demand.   Iron Ore was discovered in the late 1950s but Japan was the only major player which bought it until China came on line in the late 1990s and then demand skyrocketed.   What we would need is for China to get rid of Maoism earlier.

Wow, thanks Rickshaw, I found this snippet of factual history very interesting!!

M.A.D

Offline Kerick

  • Reportedly finished with a stripper...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #381 on: November 11, 2019, 01:54:40 AM »
Export koala bears and crocs!

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #382 on: March 22, 2020, 04:51:48 AM »


F-4x4K
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #383 on: March 22, 2020, 07:52:44 AM »
FWIW War Thunder has just released the F-4E in their latest update.  Armed with AIM-9J Sidewinders and Gatling Gun plus flares but no AIM-7 Sparrow AAM (yet).
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #384 on: May 21, 2020, 03:54:39 PM »
Phantom New Generation


Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #385 on: May 21, 2020, 03:57:50 PM »
Do you remember F-16/79? With this in mind, what about Phantom III equipped with 3 J79?


« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:31:56 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #386 on: May 21, 2020, 05:40:47 PM »
How about a proper small carrier Phantom, even more powerful than Spey (or a more powerful Spey), high lift devices, maybe blown flaps.  USN wants it to keep the remaining Essex Class CVAs effective into the 80s, RN want it to fly off not only Eagle and Ark but also Vic and Hermes as well as a reconstructed Centaur.

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #387 on: May 22, 2020, 10:20:24 PM »
How about a proper small carrier Phantom, even more powerful than Spey (or a more powerful Spey), high lift devices, maybe blown flaps.  USN wants it to keep the remaining Essex Class CVAs effective into the 80s, RN want it to fly off not only Eagle and Ark but also Vic and Hermes as well as a reconstructed Centaur.
I think one of the reasons the smaller carriers could not manage the F4 was simply the mass versus the catapult capacity. Even lowering the take-off speed by adding more power or blown flaps, etc., is't going to change the fact that the Lead Sled was, in fact, lead. And adding capacity to catapults is not an easy thing to do it relates to the available steam from the engines and the length of track for the catapult, neither of which is terribly variable once the carrier is built, even with a major rebuild.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #388 on: May 23, 2020, 03:25:09 AM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #389 on: May 23, 2020, 01:01:35 PM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?

Nope, it couldn't work.  As soon as you applied the RATO/JATO the catapult would stop working as the weight would be taken by the RATO/JATO. 

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #390 on: May 23, 2020, 02:42:06 PM »
More powerful, lengthened catapults and the high lift devices handling the recovery side of things.  Yes there are limits to how long a cat a ship can take but if a long enough, powerful enough cat can be fitted the biggest issue is recovery.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #391 on: May 24, 2020, 03:46:55 AM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?

Nope, it couldn't work.  As soon as you applied the RATO/JATO the catapult would stop working as the weight would be taken by the RATO/JATO.

It could possibly work if the JATO/RATO were triggered the moment the ca't stopped.  Think of it as a virtual extension to the cat'.    Not saying it would be elegant but...

Another option might be to just go the JATO/RATO option and ignore the cat' altogether.  Some inspiration:

« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 03:52:20 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #392 on: May 24, 2020, 07:09:01 PM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?

Nope, it couldn't work.  As soon as you applied the RATO/JATO the catapult would stop working as the weight would be taken by the RATO/JATO.

It could possibly work if the JATO/RATO were triggered the moment the ca't stopped.  Think of it as a virtual extension to the cat'.    Not saying it would be elegant but...

Another option might be to just go the JATO/RATO option and ignore the cat' altogether.  Some inspiration:

Physically that would work.  However, whereas the limit on OPTEMPO was the number of catapult slings carried by the carrier, the OPTEMPO would then be limited by the number of RATA/JATO units carried.

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #393 on: May 25, 2020, 06:50:15 AM »
Which config do you prefer?


Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #394 on: May 26, 2020, 02:05:07 AM »
The bottom one for me.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #395 on: May 26, 2020, 02:11:12 AM »
I unfortunately have to agree with Greg on the last one.
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #396 on: May 28, 2020, 04:04:01 AM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?

Nope, it couldn't work.  As soon as you applied the RATO/JATO the catapult would stop working as the weight would be taken by the RATO/JATO.
If the RATO system was sufficient to launch the aircraft on it's own, you don't need the cats, but then as Rickshaw says, you're then limited by how many RATOS you are carrying, which wouldn't be that many as they are pretty big.

If the RATO system is only part of the capability, then they would share that with the cats and both systems are needed for take-off. Of course, if you have a failure of _either_ system, the pilots are going swimming, which is a bad system design if you don't absolutely need to do it. And you still have the logistics issue of how many RATOS you have.

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #397 on: May 28, 2020, 04:08:37 AM »
More powerful, lengthened catapults and the high lift devices handling the recovery side of things.  Yes there are limits to how long a cat a ship can take but if a long enough, powerful enough cat can be fitted the biggest issue is recovery.
Yes, longer cats is the answer, but it's an answer with an awfully big price tag as its related to how much steam the ship can maintain as well as how much room the Cat and all the piping take within the ship. It's not a small thing and it was, if I remember correctly, one of the reasons that the Essexs were not cleared for using Phantoms and flew F-8s as their fast movers until they were withdrawn rather upgrading to carry F-4s.

Paul

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #398 on: May 28, 2020, 04:15:19 AM »
Hmmm...RATO packs in rear two Sparrow points?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #399 on: May 29, 2020, 06:50:29 AM »
I wonder if a catapult combined with JATO/RATO pods would work?


You know, when I first learnt about the Soviet/Russian aircraft carrier Riga; launched as , embarked on sea trials as Tbilisi, and finally named (now that was exhausting 😉), knowing that it was designed around a ski-jump operations, lacking catapults... I always wondered to myself whether the Soviets/Russians would utilise just such an arrangement! Especially when one appreciates that the likes of the already large and heavy Flanker would have to be restricted in fuel and weapons load to achieve its take off - regardless of its outstanding thrust-to-weight ratio.

MAD