Author Topic: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 171446 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #350 on: June 20, 2019, 10:45:37 PM »
I suppose I could have made it less inclusive by suggesting any Phantom type.  Actually no reason to not consider LANTIRN being mounted on any Phantom that has the space available for the equipment.  F-4J/F-4S, RF-4B/RF-4C, RF-4E could all benefit from something like the LANTIRN but the RF-4B/RF-4C would need an alternative location for the pods since there are no missile wells.  So perhaps the inboard wing stores pylons could be considered a practical location for the LANTIRN on the reconnaissance Phantoms. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #351 on: June 21, 2019, 01:03:52 AM »
So why not give it it's own pylon, just as they did on the F-15

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #352 on: June 21, 2019, 01:27:27 AM »
Where will it fit?
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #353 on: June 21, 2019, 02:02:34 AM »
Whilst not a LANTRIN pod per se, the broadly similar Rafael LITENING III post is carried by some Hellenic F-4s:



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #354 on: June 21, 2019, 04:31:42 AM »
Where will it fit?

Same sort of position as the F-15E's, under the air intakes. Mind you, I think I would put it closer to the bottom outside corner of the intake.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #355 on: October 04, 2019, 11:28:51 PM »
Page 19 of this pdf has a photo of a USN Phantom doing a touch and go on HMS Hermes.
http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/pdf-docs/hermes14.pdf

Interesting, very interesting, and apparently touch and goes were also conducted on Victorious.

Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #356 on: October 05, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »
Gentlemen, I present you the work of Goran Sudar, artist and modeller from Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Yugoslav Air Force F-4C Phantom II

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156696748708494&set=a.112145508493&type=3&theater

Goran is also journalist and my facebook friend. Couple years ago we were both at SimmersPaintShop forum. I asked him if he would join here, but although it seems to me that he liked the idea, I still don't see him here. Therefore, I post his Phantom... At his facebook page, you supposed to see his work in much higher resolution...
... and kill me again
or take me as I am,
for I shall not change...
never...

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #357 on: October 06, 2019, 02:55:37 AM »
Looking good.  Please continue to ask him to join us here.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #358 on: October 06, 2019, 02:58:13 AM »
Higher resolution version:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #359 on: October 06, 2019, 03:37:59 AM »
A different scenario for the RAAF having Phantoms:

In December 1960 the Australian Govt ordered the Mirage III.  The first RAAF aircraft, numbered A3-1, flew at Bordeaux on 14 March 1963 and was handed over to the RAAF on 9 April the same year.  The first Australian-assembled aircraft (A3-3 to A3-50) delivered to No 2 Operational Conversion Unit (2OCU) at Williamtown in 1964 followed by No 75 Squadron becoming the first operational unit to equip in 1965. 

Roughly concurrent to this, further more, in March of 1962, the US Defense Department announced that land-based versions of the Phantom (in the form of the F-110A and RF-110A respectively - later to be the F-4C and RF-4C) were to be the standard tactical fighter and tactical reconnaissance aircraft of the USAF.

Finally, as part of its search for a replacement for its English Electric Canberra bombers, in mid-1963 a team travelled to the United States to evaluate the General Dynamics F-111, North American A-5 Vigilante and F-4C Phantom II strike aircraft. While in the United States, the team also inspected the Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker, which was considered necessary to support these aircraft. In its final report, the team rejected the F-4C on the grounds that the aircraft lacked the range, performance at low altitude and reconnaissance capability that the RAAF required. The F-111 was considered to be the most suitable aircraft of those considered, but the team proposed that the RAAF acquire 36 Vigilantes as they also met the force's requirements and could be delivered within a shorter time frame.  Eventually this recommendation was rejected and the RAAF eventually ordered and received F-111s.

Now, what if through the magic of whiffer, we mix all this up and get something like the following scenario:

In December 1960 the Australian Govt ordered the Mirage III.  However whilst in development, the Australian Govt keeps its options open with a team of RAAF officers also looking at options for a English Electric Canberra replacement.  In mid 1962, following the evaluation of two Navy F4H-1s and the subsequent announcement that land-based versions of the Phantom were to be the standard tactical fighter and tactical reconnaissance aircraft of the USAF and a recommendation by the RAAF that by joining in on the USAF buy the RAAF could go for an all Spectre (as the F-110 was called then) fleet and get not only get a better platform for a primary fighter but also a common replacement for the Canberra replacement.  To address the perceived range issue, a squadron of KC-135s would also be acquired.  The Mirage buy is curtailed and the aircraft sold back to Dassault to use in trials.  The resulting F-4C/RF-4C Phantoms (new designations in line with US practice) get the A8- designator and enter service in 1965.  GAF/CAC jointly produce them under license.  They are later upgraded in line with US practice a number of times and serve through to the early 1980s when they are replaced by...


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #360 on: October 06, 2019, 05:15:57 AM »
Looking good.  Please continue to ask him to join us here.
I will do my best...

If you look closely, pilot of Goran's Phantom is colonel Suad Hamzić. Not a fictional, but actual person... a former Yugoslav Air Force fighter/reconnaissance pilot, later a Yugoslav military attache in Turkey, and Goran's personal friend. During his career, 1963 - 1993, he flew many types, including F-86E/D Sabre, several versions of MiG-21, and he was also testing Northrop RF-5E in USA in 1980, when Yugoslavia considered acquiring the type. There is no english version, but there are some photos of Hamzić tests here...

https://tangosix.rs/2016/11/02/ispitivanje-prototipa-aviona-rf-5e-u-sad-1980-godine/

Unfortunately, Hamzić passed away this year in May, so Goran's artwork is also a tribute to his friend...

edit: I correct mistake I made... ''North American RF-5''  :-[
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 01:24:34 PM by Vuk »
... and kill me again
or take me as I am,
for I shall not change...
never...

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #361 on: October 06, 2019, 06:08:26 AM »
A different scenario for the RAAF having Phantoms ...

I like the idea of an 'AF-110 Spectre'. For a variation on the theme, what about sticking with a mixed fleet of single-engined Mirage fighters and twin-engined Phantom interceptor/recce aircraft?

I'm thinking that the original Australian Mirage III order is switched into a 'Mirage VI' purchase. The latter (recycling a 1958 project designation) are GAF-built Mirage IIIOs with GE J79 engines in place of the French Atar.

Alternatively, the GAF 'Mirage VI' could have followed the CAC Avon Sabre pattern more closely. That is, a British-engined Mirage for the RAAF. In fact, I think I'll run with that ...

The RAAF plans for locally-built Mirages powered by a Rolls-Royce RB.168 Spey turbofan. French-built Mirage IIIs are received as interim equipment with a 'buy-back' agreement with Dassault for these airframes as GAF-built Mirage VIs become available.

The Mirage VIO(F)s are all interceptors. The planned Mirage VIO(A) attack aircraft have been put on hold pending the outcome of investigating replacements for the A84 Canberra. GAF proposed two schemes involving the RB.168 Spey turbofan. One was the rebuilding of Canberras with RB.168 Mk.101 engines. The second was the license-building of the Blackburn Buccaneer S.2 powered by the same engine type. Secretary of the Department of Defence Ted Hicks, CBE, approved the 'Super Canberra'.

The 'Super Canberra' programme never proceded beyond the engine-conversion testbed phase. Indeed, senior levels of the RAAF had opposed this programme from the outset. In 1963, Air Marshal Val Hancock, KBE, CB, DFC, set off on a multi-continent junket to assess more advanced Canberra replacement options. He returned with high praise for the USAF's F-4C (F-110 as was) but recommended the unbuilt TFX project as the ideal candidate. Secretary Hicks rejected the TFX on grounds of cost and unproven performance. He and AIRMSHL Hancock compromised on the F-110 ... but also to be powered by RB.168 Spey turbofans.

The RAAF 'Spey Phantom' would emerge as a hybrid, combining the powerplant of the RN F-4K with the avionics and weapons of the USAF F-4C. In RAAF service, these aircraft were referred to as Phantom II(F) interceptors - first operated by No. 1 Sqn RAAF - and Phantom II(RA) recce-attack aircraft - first with No. 6 Sqn RAAF. A small number of Phantom II(D) dual-control trainers were also used by No. 6 Sqn.

Ironically, the RAAF's Phantom II(RA) and Canberras of No. 2 Sqn would operated side-by-side from Phan Rang Air Base in Vietnam (as well as alongside the F-4Cs of 391st TFS and USAF B-57 Canberras of the USAF's 8th and 13th TBS). The RAAF's  Phantom II(F)s and Mirages stayed home to defend the continent.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #362 on: October 06, 2019, 09:14:21 AM »
I think the only way a combined Mirage/Phantom solution works for the RAAF is with a much bigger RAAF and budget.  Besides, one would probably argue that a RAAF Phantom solution trumps over a Mirage or partial Mirage fleet in terms of capability.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #363 on: October 06, 2019, 10:53:12 PM »
Stretching the old memory here but I read an article in the early 90s in a late 60s early 70s issue of flight magazine that outlined then Defence Minister (later PM) Malcom Frazer's negotiations with the US over the much delayed F-111.  Of particular interest was the planned cancellation of the F-111 order in favour of the F-4, RF-4 and KC-135.

If I recall correctly the numbers were:

36 F-4E in 3 Sqns
6 RF-4 in 1 Sqn / Flt
12 KC-135 in 1 Sqn

This is what was seen as required to replace the proposed F-111 capability.

Other options included the USAF taking Australia's Cs (converting them back to As) with new build D's (or F's) being delivered to the RAAF in their place.

Then there was the RAN proposal to replace Melbourne with a modernised Essex class carrier equipped with F-4J, Tracker and Tracer (other platforms considered were the CVA-01, a modernised Centaur and even a new build Essex).  Add to this Australia was offered Hermes (in CTOL config) the RAN as a hot transfer in 1967/8, and my pervious post about Phantoms conducting touch and goes, i.e. she could have been upgraded to operate them.  Victorious became available in 69 and Eagle was even mentioned as a possibility for transfer to Australia in the early 70s (in fact a FAA type told me Eagle, Vic and Hermes are all considered for transfer to the RAN in the 70s to replace Melbourne and support the Two Ocean Navy policy).

Holistically the Phantom could have fit very well, not just with the RAAF as a Sabre replacement, but also the Canberra, and the FAA Sea Venom, with local production exceeding 150 aircraft.  100 replacing the Sabre, 40-50 replacing the Canberra, and 20-40 (depending on the number of carriers) replacing the Sea Venom

Now my scenario, A

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #364 on: October 07, 2019, 02:51:36 AM »
Then there was the RAN proposal to replace Melbourne with a modernised Essex class carrier equipped with F-4J, Tracker and Tracer (other platforms considered were the CVA-01, a modernised Centaur and even a new build Essex).  Add to this Australia was offered Hermes (in CTOL config) the RAN as a hot transfer in 1967/8, and my pervious post about Phantoms conducting touch and goes, i.e. she could have been upgraded to operate them.  Victorious became available in 69 and Eagle was even mentioned as a possibility for transfer to Australia in the early 70s (in fact a FAA type told me Eagle, Vic and Hermes are all considered for transfer to the RAN in the 70s to replace Melbourne and support the Two Ocean Navy policy).

As I think has been discussed elsewhere, an Essex class would only be able to operate the F-4 with significant modifications. 

Another option that might have been considered would be for the RAN to somehow acquire a Midway Class - say USS Coral Sea - maybe in the early 1970s (though this will have necessitated a bigger RAN as well).  This is already Phantom capable. Perhaps back in 1964 when then Minister for Defence Senator Shane Paltridge rejected a proposal from the Navy to purchase an Essex-class aircraft carrier from the United States Navy, the then Minister for the Navy, Senator John Gorton (and former fighter pilot himself) decided he didn't like losing.  A few years later (January 1968) upon becoming Prime Minister, he decides, with the support of then Minister for the Army (and soon to be Minister of Defence) Malcom Fraser, maybe he pushes one again for an enlarged, more capable Navy with HMAS Melbourne being finally pensioned off - maybe sold to someone else (whole other whiff story there).  The US, keen to keep Australia a close partner, especially with the war in Vietnam, offers the USS Coral Sea at a heavy discount.  With GAF/CAC production of F-4Cs/RF-4Cs winding down, a follow on order of say, 24 somewhat in line with USN F-4N configuration.  Later in the 1970s/early 1980s all are upgraded or replaced.

Holistically the Phantom could have fit very well, not just with the RAAF as a Sabre replacement, but also the Canberra, and the FAA Sea Venom, with local production exceeding 150 aircraft.  100 replacing the Sabre, 40-50 replacing the Canberra, and 20-40 (depending on the number of carriers) replacing the Sea Venom

Looking at real world numbers, in the rough era involved, as a basis:

Mirage IIIO/D   116
F-111C             24
A-4G                20
TOTAL:           160

Thus a production run for an Australian F-4C/RF-4C fleet of say 140 plus say another 24 F-4N for the RAN is not that far removed.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #365 on: October 07, 2019, 06:54:00 PM »
The Essex was confirmed to be able to operate F-4B/J in the report recommending acquisition of a modernised Essex to the CoA.  Ironically they would have had more issues with the F-4K as the extended nose wheel saw them damage steel decked Forrestal's during trials.

My pet whiff that I have most of the kits for and have been planning for years is that desperate to acquire newbuild carriers the RN offers Hermes, Victorious and the Tigers for sale to fund them.  This coincides with opposition attacks on the Australian government defence policy in the light of Indonesian threats against Malaysia during the early 60s, as well as their extensive acquisition of soviet equipment that was believed (probably more a political wedge than real) to be more capable and even a threat to Australia.

Real world, Australia ordered two modified Charles F Adams Class DDGs from the US and planned to fit Tartar to their Battle (2) and Daring (3) Class Destroyers (cancelled) before ordering a third CFA (fourth proposed but not ordered).  Plans to re-role the Carrier Melbourne as an ASW Helicopter Carrier were rescinded in 1963 and fixed wing operations continued with Trackers and Skyhawks being ordered. F-111 was ordered to replace Canberra and the first four Oberon Class Submarines were ordered.

Whiff world, Australia buys the three Tigers, Hermes and Victorious from the UK in the early 60s.  Initially two Tigers and one carrier maintained in commission while the third Tiger is converted to a Tartar CAG with a Mk-13 installed in B position and the carrier upgraded to operate Phantom, Tracker and Tracer.  When they return to service the remaining carrier and Tigers rotate through the same upgrades. Melbourne becomes a helicopter carrier, Sydney an LPH, the Darings are converted to DDGs, the Battles to radar pickets with Seacat, additional River Class DEs (Type 12 Frigates) are ordered, as are the Oberon Class submarines.

F-4K Phantom is ordered for the carriers, then also as a Canberra replacement, then instead of follow-on batches of Mirage III, justifying local production and the types eventual replacement of the initial Mirage IIIs in the mid 70s.  NZ joins the Phantom procurement, acquiring 24.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #366 on: October 08, 2019, 01:27:12 PM »
Going to need a significant, no make that a major source for cash and manpower for that to happen.  Australia was in the midst of a high employment period - one of the reasons why conscription was introduced.  Either you have service in the service(s) or you have development of the civilian economy.  We would need a shed load of 10 pound poms or we would need to open the immigration doors to loads more Southern Europeans or we'd need to end the White Australia Policy at least 10-15 years earlier than actually happened and accept Asians.   

Conscription was limited to the Army.  In order to get a significant number of naval ratings (which all these big ships would require) it would need conscription to cover the Navy as well.  The RAAF would have liked some Conscripts as well, I expect.  So, suddenly you have an extremely unpopular policy covering all three services instead of just one.   The Army paid the price for accepting conscripts, becoming extremely unpopular for at least 20 years afterwards.

Then there is the problem of where the dosh to pay for this is going to come from.   Australia in the 1960s was still limited by the amount of money which was available to it for defence purposes.  Big ships cost money.  Big ships needing big changes need even more money.   The Korean War wool boom was well and truly over by 1960.  The Defence Forces needed new equipment - hence the decision to purchase the F-111s, the Caribou, the M113 and the DDGs all in 1964 (the Mirages was decided in what, 1959?).   All those cost a shed load of dosh.   Now, unless we see a major new discovery of some mineral wealth that the world wants to buy off of us, say in the mid-1950s (in order to have it online by the mid-1960s) this would not happen.    In the mid-1960s, social security costs were starting to increase - despite the Conservatives trying to keep a lid on it.  Do we accept lower social security payments?

As in anything, we all have a wish list of kit that we believe we should have purchased, that we could have purchased but no one seems to consider the backstory, the ways and the means that this could have been possible... 

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #367 on: October 08, 2019, 08:30:30 PM »
The reason so many equipment decisions were made in 63/4 is because obsolescence was a major political issue due to years of under investment, project deferments and cancelations.

The reason for conscription was because the government was concerned Australia may be drawn into an armed conflict between Indonesia and the Netherlands over West Papua / Irian Jaya.

The arguments that Australia didn't have the money or the manpower don't hold water when you look at what ended up being spent and how much the army was expanded. An ongoing whiff of mine is the Australian government actually listens to advice, consistently invests a reasonable amount on defence and applies a degree of vision in regards to developing industry as well as capability.

The Phantom was a contender for the Sabre replacement, the Canberra replacement, and what the RAN desired to replace the Sea Venom with, as well as obviously, the interim type selected following delays in delivery of the F-111.  It was seen as the only alternative if the F-111 purchase was cancelled, hell even New Zealand seriously looked at acquiring Phantoms.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #368 on: October 09, 2019, 02:40:11 AM »
Going to need a significant, no make that a major source for cash and manpower for that to happen...


Agreed.  Part of the reason why in my Great Australia story, I started with "Following the end of the Second World War, the Australian government instigated a massive program of immigration..." ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding...
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #369 on: October 09, 2019, 04:56:59 AM »
All those cost a shed load of dosh.   Now, unless we see a major new discovery of some mineral wealth that the world wants to buy off of us, say in the mid-1950s (in order to have it online by the mid-1960s) this would not happen.

Well you did, and you're still sitting on it ---- oil

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #370 on: October 09, 2019, 09:57:30 AM »
All those cost a shed load of dosh.   Now, unless we see a major new discovery of some mineral wealth that the world wants to buy off of us, say in the mid-1950s (in order to have it online by the mid-1960s) this would not happen.

Well you did, and you're still sitting on it ---- oil

In part yes.  Oil was first discovered in Australia ~1890.  It wasn't really developed as an industry until the late 1960s.  Problem is, the oil we have is not very good for refining into dieso/petrol.  It has heavy suphides present and that causes "knock" quite badly.   While we do refine a bit of it, it is more economic to use the by-products first - natural gas and LPG and import refined products (dieso/petrol)  from overseas.   This has caused a significant problem in that we have shut down most of our refineries and have little in the way of fuel reserves available to us.  The Government has been severely criticised for this and for good reason.

I'll further refine my comment.  What we need is some new mineral discovery and a market to sell it in easily and with great demand.   Iron Ore was discovered in the late 1950s but Japan was the only major player which bought it until China came on line in the late 1990s and then demand skyrocketed.   What we would need is for China to get rid of Maoism earlier. 

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #371 on: October 09, 2019, 10:16:27 AM »
The reason so many equipment decisions were made in 63/4 is because obsolescence was a major political issue due to years of under investment, project deferments and cancelations.

The reason for conscription was because the government was concerned Australia may be drawn into an armed conflict between Indonesia and the Netherlands over West Papua / Irian Jaya.

Except the question of West New Guinea was settled at least 12-18 months before Conscription was introduced in 1965.   The Dutch had given it up, under Indonesian and US pressure to the UN and the UN in turn had handed it over to Indonesia.  We had to acquiesce because we lacked the manpower and the backing we wanted from Washington.    Konfrontasi was a much greater danger but the British joined with us in Borneo.  Vietnam occurred at the same time.  Suddenly the three Battalions of the regular army weren't sufficient for all three deployments (Malaya/Singapore, Borneo and Vietnam) and so new Battalions had to be created, quickly, hence Conscription.

Quote
The arguments that Australia didn't have the money or the manpower don't hold water when you look at what ended up being spent and how much the army was expanded. An ongoing whiff of mine is the Australian government actually listens to advice, consistently invests a reasonable amount on defence and applies a degree of vision in regards to developing industry as well as capability.

The Army's expansion was over a period of four years (1965-68).   It was pretty piecemeal with soldiers deploying to SVN initially with ex-WWII equipment (weapons/webbing/radios/etc.).   While money eventually came on line, the Army was pretty much at the bottom of the rungs of the ladder for expenditure.   While the Government did listen to what the advisors, advised, the problem was as you pointed out, obsolescence.  The Sabres, the Dakotas, the Canberras, the ships, the artillery pieces, the APCs, etc. all needed replacing/procuring and that cost money.   Money that Treasury wasn't willing to part with.    Indeed, the internecine warfare between the Government mandarins made Vietnam look like a picnic at times.   It was vicious and no prisoners were taken.

Quote
The Phantom was a contender for the Sabre replacement, the Canberra replacement, and what the RAN desired to replace the Sea Venom with, as well as obviously, the interim type selected following delays in delivery of the F-111.  It was seen as the only alternative if the F-111 purchase was cancelled, hell even New Zealand seriously looked at acquiring Phantoms.

I agree, the Phantom was a missed opportunity.  It could have fulfilled all our needs quite well.   It would have ultimately saved money as well because of the scale of numbers we would have procured.  If the Kiwis had come on board it would have been even better.   The F-111 was a good plane but it was late arriving and too specialised in what it did.   The Phantom could do all things for all people.   However, it was an expensive (at least initially) purchase.   The RAN would have needed a new carrier.   Government was reluctant to spend that sort of money.

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #372 on: October 09, 2019, 11:52:45 AM »
If they'd bought a new carrier then, maybe we'd still have one now (a proper carrier, that is). :icon_crap:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #373 on: October 09, 2019, 12:34:38 PM »
If they'd bought a new carrier then, maybe we'd still have one now (a proper carrier, that is). :icon_crap:

The US were very keen to supply us (as well and the UK and Canada) with an Essex in at least CVS configuration and the Brits offered us Hermes in 68, with Victorious and Eagle also being available following the decision to get out of the carrier game.  The ships were on offer for next to bugger all, I believe possibly for less than it cost to refit Melbourne to operate Skyhawks and Trackers and improve her air-conditioning. They required more crew than Melbourne but less than Melbourne and Sydney (as a troop transport) combined.

The argument about money is flawed as Australia has consistently gone for the cheaper option while wearing rose tinted glasses, causing delays, capability gaps, followed by costly mitigation.  The number of times a fully costed, risk assessed and engineered option has been knocked back in favour of something that promises the world but never delivers the promised capability is quite shocking.  Even the F-111 buy was a cost cutting exercise, buy 24 (plus 6 recce) high end airframes for two squadrons instead of 36+ perfectly good enough airframes in three squadrons, supported by tankers.  I could be wrong but I believe the F-111 ended up costing more than the Phantom fall back option would have.

Imagine 150 Phantoms replacing Canberra, Sea Venom, supplementing, then replacing Mirage. Not cheap but what would the savings have been on the support systems side of things?  Phantom was much more capable than Mirage or Skyhawk, and good enough that the RAAF wanted to keep the leased Es, even after the F-111 arrived.  Phantom would have needed tankers to match the F-111s range but we ended up converting 707s anyway, so the KC-135 would not have been a significant extra cost anyway. Had we gone for Spey Phantoms, or B/J/N/S the 707 with hose and drogue would have been perfectly adequate anyway.

I'm not pulling this stuff out of a random orifice, it was proposed and rejected, with the options selected instead delivering less capability, while still costing a significant amount up front, then even more down the track as the reality of sustainability, obsolescence and capability short falls hit.  Modernised Melbourne was barely capable of operating Skyhawks and required the cannibalisation of retired carriers (Bonaventure and Essexs) to keep her operational, a Squadron of Mirages had to be disbanded to sustain the shrinking fleet and even then there was a period of years in the late 70s early 80s where neither their guns or air to air missiles were operable.  Then there were the F-111s teething issues that took years to sort out. None of these would have occurred had the Phantom been acquired and Melbourne replaced in the 60s.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 05:03:58 PM by Volkodav »

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #374 on: October 10, 2019, 02:39:43 PM »
If they'd bought a new carrier then, maybe we'd still have one now (a proper carrier, that is). :icon_crap:

Can't disagree with that.  The loss of the carrier element to the fleet has severely limited what the RAN can do.  While an ex-USN carrier would perhaps, in the long run been a sensible purchase there was also the HMS VICTORIOUS and/or EAGLE available in the late 1960s.   EAGLE was capable of operating Phantoms, if it had water cooled blast deflectors installed on it's decks (it never did, whereas ARK ROYAL, her sister ship did).   What EAGLE lacked also was up-to-date Radars.   Both could be relatively easily fixed.   VICTORIOUS would have required significant rework to be able to operate Phantoms.

ESSEX class carriers were more than likely more easily supported because of their source.   Both ESSEX and EAGLE had roughly comparable complements of approximately 3,000 men (including officers).    MELBOURNE had a complement of only 1,350 men.