Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: M.A.D on February 12, 2012, 06:13:27 PM

Title: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on February 12, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
G’day gents

I've once again been looking through Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects (page 50 & 51) - the precursor to the F-100 Super Sabre!

I'm thinking of a backstory pertaining to a more conservative evolution of the F-86 Sabre design by North American Aviation, as opposed to them taking a more riskier and expensive jump directly to the F-100 Super Sabre.
As in the case of the Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau did with their improving of the combat tested and proven MiG-15 Fagot, which evolved into the improved MiG-17 Fresco, before they took the jump to the supersonic and more radical MiG-19 Farmer design!

So it is, that I'm hoping, that someone out there might have 3-view drawings or profiles of the proposed 'Advanced F-86 / Sabre 45' or if someone is willing to have a crack at creating some of these 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' profiles. 

P.S. I have to apologise, as I only have this picture from the book!!

M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on February 13, 2012, 06:14:26 AM
MAD, have you tried contacting Tony Buttler ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on February 13, 2012, 07:42:33 PM
Thanks kitnut617 for the heads up  ;)
Would love too!!
Can you PM a C/P for him please??

M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on February 14, 2012, 12:59:21 AM
Hi, I asked Tony if it's alright to give out his details and this was his reply:

Hello Robert.
Hope all is well. Thanks for your message.
 
I had read this comment on the secretprojects forum. You are welcome to pass my details to your contact, but there are currently no drawings of these designs available.
 
I understand that the North American archive still exists but its huge size has (so far) prevented any chance of the public being able to view it. Consequently, for projects after about 1948/49 (which are not in the National archives) there is no supporting documentation to provide data (dimensions, weights, performance, etc) and of course 3-view drawings. I have tried lots of other potential NAA contacts (and still do) but with no luck as yet. The one chap who I think may have been able to help was not happy to send me copies of project drawings because he did not wish to break the very tight secrecy restrictions (even though this stuff is 60+ years old).
 
Sorry I cannot say anymore - I too would love to see drawings of these designs myself.
 
Very best wishes,
Tony.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on February 14, 2012, 08:06:22 AM
Post war thru 50s planes in general of all nations are favorites of mine.  This captures that era well.  Makes for more kit bashing thought.
Without thinking about it as such when building.  I feel Spider Venom has that 1950ish look/feel to it.
Looking forward to what you can come up with......  :)
Bill
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 14, 2012, 02:28:35 PM
I will have a read on the section of the book on the weekend - it might be possible to draw something up based upon the model photos and description.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on February 14, 2012, 02:57:14 PM
Thank you kitnut617 for your time and effort in forwarding my enquiry to Tony Buttler!
Please be so kind as to forward my thanks for his time and consideration regarding this topic!
Also please acknowledge to Tony, that I am a huge fan of his work, which has equated to some great and informative books!

Regards
M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 06, 2012, 02:47:26 AM
Hi folks,

Random thought for a subtle whiff:  What if Australia also provided some CAC Sabres to Singapore at the same time as they did so for Malaysia?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on July 06, 2012, 06:06:50 AM
Set up F-86 rebuild line for anyone willing to pay for updates.  Center piece of rebuilds is as was done with Skyhawk includes F-404 with option to include afterburner.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on July 07, 2012, 06:24:41 PM
The IDFAF ordered Canadair Sabre 6's. One got painted up but the order was stopped.

Similarly the Rhodesians tried to get South American F-86K's but they got blocked.

I did build a RRAF F-86E, ex RAF Sabre 4, and an IDF 6 a long time ago.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on July 07, 2012, 10:28:08 PM
One of my project (which I really should get and finish  :-\ ) is to build a prop driven F-86, an F-86D to be exact.  The idea came about after reading about the Rolls Royce Crecy two-stroke engine, one of the theoretical combustion engineers there had reworked the design into a 16 cylinder 'X' configuration of about 7 litres and putting out 2500 hp.  The engine would have had a Griffon two-stage supercharger attached to the front (which had about the same diameter as the engine block) and the exhaust
was channeled back into an exhaust turbine. The contraption looked very much like a jet turbine engine in appearance.  The chapter then went on to explain by juggling the numbers the engineer had come up with and making everything larger, they could have got a 24 cylinder 'X' configuration which kicked out about 8000 hp (in theory that is).

My idea was to go with this engine so I started looking around for an airframe that could handle 8000 hp.  The book on the Crecy (and Mustang) from Rolls Royce, explains that a pound of thrust is about 1 hp, so that narrowed the search to what airframe to look for.  Now the F-86D just happens to fall in this catagory, plus it has a nose that looks like a spinner and it didn't take much to come up with a design. The engine would be where the real engine would be and using a Rolls Royce designed drive-shaft (designed for their mid-engined FTB project), powering a prop on the front wouldn't be a problem I think.  Prop ground clearance would easily be accommodated by using the FJ-4 Fury u/c (there's at least 12" of clearance when I measure it with my scale rule).  I used a Wyvern prop and after cutting off the radome nose, I only had to sand the fuselage back about 1mm before the spinner and fuselage diameters matched.

Anyway, some pics of it.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on July 08, 2012, 03:24:47 AM
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 08, 2012, 04:49:46 AM
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?


Maybe as a different approach to the RF-86?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Rf-86-korea-67trw.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on July 08, 2012, 07:38:46 AM
How about replacing the radome on an F-86D with a camera nose?

F-86D with a Mirage IIIR recon nose. I don't know whether they are to scale, though.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/RF-86D.png)
"Snoopin' Sabre" is just a working title. I suppose since it derives from the Dog Sabre and is a version dedicated to looking for stuff, Bloodhound Sabre would also work.  ;)
If you take an F-86K, you can even have your recon bird armed with cannons.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 08, 2012, 08:17:04 AM
The "Ant-eater" ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Cliffy B on July 08, 2012, 09:03:54 AM
The "Ant-eater" ;D

Needs ZOTT on the tail  8)

*see avatar*
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on July 08, 2012, 10:23:17 AM
^^  ;D Yeah!

Less nosey! This time the nose is the side view of an Etendard IV P.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/RF-86D2.png)

When I was done with this one, it reminded me A LOT of a G.91 "Gina".
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Cliffy B on July 08, 2012, 10:28:09 AM
Now its looking like a warthog (the animal).  Needs some tusks on the side and some eyes in the anti-glare panel  ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: raafif on July 08, 2012, 10:33:08 AM
I guess whif aerobatic teams would prefer the Sabre for its beautiful shape ......

one of the real Argentinian AF team a/c ......
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/AF86.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on July 08, 2012, 02:41:17 PM
I was actually thinking along the lines of a G.91Y camera nose for it.

The G.91 looked enough like the Dog Sabre as it was. Can you imagine how much more jarring to the eye it would be if it was all F-86D save the G.91Y style nose? >:D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on July 08, 2012, 07:53:55 PM
In real life the Yugoslavian AF operated old F-86D's with camera packs in place of the rocket launcher pack. I presume the radars were swapped out for balast.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 13, 2012, 11:28:28 PM
Were there, in real world, any F-86 in SEA camo scheme?
I know ROKAF. Were there any other air force?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: tsrjoe on July 14, 2012, 12:29:03 AM
i think there were some USAF. ones painted in SEA. scheme toward the end of their useful life possibly with ANG. units, there were also a few drone conversion Sabre H variants in the scheme too

cheers, Joe
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 14, 2012, 01:21:48 AM
Can anyone link a pic? :D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 14, 2012, 01:23:50 AM
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/sabre_mirage.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on July 14, 2012, 01:40:32 AM
([url]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/sabre_mirage.jpg[/url])


That's very reminiscent of the Nanchang Q-5 offshoot of the MiG-19.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on July 14, 2012, 01:56:44 AM
The only American service Sabres I've ever seen pictures of in SEA camo were ANG H models

Here's a NY ANG F-86H:
(http://www.nyaviator.com/Site/articles/2009_images/F-86H_A1.jpg)
net photo

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on July 17, 2012, 03:50:28 AM
The IDFAF ordered Canadair Sabre 6's. One got painted up but the order was stopped.

Similarly the Rhodesians tried to get South American F-86K's but they got blocked.

I did build a RRAF F-86E, ex RAF Sabre 4, and an IDF 6 a long time ago.

Found the pic.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on August 09, 2012, 04:50:08 AM
Just to annoy the Sabre Elite, I'd love to get the recently reissued RMX F-86F and rescribe it with most panel lines in completely the wrong locations and then do some correct paint scheme.  Complete with a ''research paper'' showing the kit has exactly the correct sweep to its main wing.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 09, 2012, 05:24:11 AM
Just to annoy the Sabre Elite, I'd love to get the recently reissued RMX F-86F and rescribe it with most panel lines in completely the wrong locations and then do some correct paint scheme.  Complete with a ''research paper'' showing the kit has exactly the correct sweep to its main wing.
 

Better yet, use RLM colors and pattern for a desert Me-109 just to add some additional spin and consternation :)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on August 09, 2012, 05:26:35 AM
Or Coastal Command...........
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 09, 2012, 05:39:48 AM
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437 (http://www.corgi.co.uk/shop/the-aviation-archive/aa39303-boulton-paul-defiant-mki-307-polish-sqn-ew-k-n3437/)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Empty Handed on August 09, 2012, 08:56:51 PM
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on August 10, 2012, 11:36:44 AM
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?
Weren't some of them done in camo, late in life, as F-1Es?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: apophenia on August 10, 2012, 11:57:31 AM
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.

Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on August 10, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.

Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)
Or do a F-86D or -86K in WW II night fighter scheme.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Empty Handed on August 10, 2012, 07:03:50 PM
What about a FJ-3/-4 Fury in USAF colours?
Weren't some of them done in camo, late in life, as F-1Es?

I was thinking of a NMF scheme, perhaps in a Fighter-Bomber Squadron as a supplement to the F-84F since they are both J65 engined. I don't believe the F-86G designator was used....
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on August 11, 2012, 03:07:27 AM
Since the Monogram F-86F is too thick through the cheeks and jowls, and has a wing that is too swept, one should be built up as a "F-86x" test bed or in some foreign customer's markings. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 11, 2012, 03:18:41 AM
Since the Monogram F-86F is too thick through the cheeks and jowls, and has a wing that is too swept, one should be built up as a "F-86x" test bed or in some foreign customer's markings.


I had no idea that there were faults such as this with the Monogram F-86 kit.  Though some of the details are a bit on the thick side I had never really noticed the faults you describe.  Not that this would deter me from adding another kit to the stash as it does have the one attribute that appeals to me in being affordable in most cases when compared to the more expensive offerings from Academy and Hasegawa. 

Has there been any criticism of the Esci F-86 kits?  I found them to be rather plain and primitive.  Of course the instrument panel decals may have swayed my judgement a little. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on August 11, 2012, 03:20:38 AM
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437 ([url]http://www.corgi.co.uk/shop/the-aviation-archive/aa39303-boulton-paul-defiant-mki-307-polish-sqn-ew-k-n3437/[/url])


I don't think that was a night fighter scheme Jeff, at the beginning of the war, all the RAF day fighters had the half white/half black undersides, it was painted on for recognition purposes
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 11, 2012, 03:30:47 AM
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions.
Jeffry: Believe it or not, the RAF's black/white undersurface was a diurnal scheme. So, just add night fighter radar antennae to drive the JMNs bonkers  ;)


Or Coastal Command...........
Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437 ([url]http://www.corgi.co.uk/shop/the-aviation-archive/aa39303-boulton-paul-defiant-mki-307-polish-sqn-ew-k-n3437/[/url])
I don't think that was a night fighter scheme Jeff, at the beginning of the war, all the RAF fighters had the half white/half black undersides, it was painted on for recognition purposes


Blame it on enthusiasm and ignorance.  Never too old to lean something new.  I never gave much thought to it before and never bothered to do much research on the BP Defiant as it was never one of those aircraft that truly interested me save for the uniqueness of how it was armed and the doctrine behind the turreted fighter being pursued as a means of combatting other aircraft.  What the hell were they thinking?  I remember the black wing/white wing and kept thinking night fighter while trying to find an example so that carried forward in my attempt to convey the idea.  Actually as a daytime recognition aide it would certainly be effective and that scheme applied to a Sabre would certainly be a worthy tribute to the Defiant.  I seem to recall that the Hurricane was also sporting that scheme but could not find a suitable example to incorpate into my input so was stuck with just the Defiant as an example. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on August 11, 2012, 03:34:44 AM
It was actually a lot like why the D-Day Invasion stripes were added, for quick identification by friendly forces.

Come to think of it, there were some F-86's painted with black and white stripes that flew in Korea, the flying F-86A that the Imperial War Museum flies at Duxford has them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/victius/5145643865/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/victius/5145643865/#)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on August 11, 2012, 05:30:54 AM
It's all supposed info.  But when a guy is considered to be the final authority on the type and also has an interest in the hobby, I'll defer to his opinion.   And a ready-made whiff just means less benchwork for me.  :)

It shouldn't be too hard to put a 4' stretch right throug the middle of it either.  For what reason???  Who knows.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: TerryCampion on August 15, 2012, 05:00:42 AM
A Rhodesian F-86F in low-viz colours, made from the 1/72nd HobbyBoss kit.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 15, 2012, 03:14:04 PM
 :)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on August 15, 2012, 04:13:16 PM
Or Coastal Command...........


Even better.  RAF night fighter scheme with the undersides painted half white and half black as seen on the Bolton Paul Defiant and other aircraft tasked with the nocturnal interception missions. 

Example of scheme at this link: Corgi die cast 1/72nd scale Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I 307 (Polish) Sqn EW-K, N3437 ([url]http://www.corgi.co.uk/shop/the-aviation-archive/aa39303-boulton-paul-defiant-mki-307-polish-sqn-ew-k-n3437/[/url])


How about a version of the N Korean night fighter scheme with red USAF toned down markings ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on August 28, 2012, 02:50:55 AM
Can anyone recommend a good 1/48 kit of the F-86 ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on August 28, 2012, 03:23:44 AM
Which version?

Academy and Hasegawa both do nice kits of E/F types and the Revell F-86D is a nice kit, even though they
got the wing-sweep wrong. It has recently be issued by Must-Have with an F-86K fuselage.

The only kit of an F-86A is the very old Lindbergh.

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on August 28, 2012, 03:27:46 AM
An E or F will do, something I can put RCAF markings on.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: TerryCampion on August 28, 2012, 06:43:10 PM
Here's an ESCI 1/48th kit, now re-released by Italeri....well, a few years ago anyway.
It's in Imperial Roman Air Force colours, as used by the Pretorian Guard and carrying Asp missiles...
The Rapier......
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on August 28, 2012, 09:09:52 PM
Jeff has come to the rescue with an 'F', thanks buddy --
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on April 06, 2013, 07:39:15 AM
While somewhat simple, why not?

Monogram F-86F with late model Sidewinders, chaff/flare dispensers. Perhaps some sort of ECM bumps here and there.    Engrave the kit and put it into some modern air force somewhere. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on April 06, 2013, 08:46:58 AM
^ A Sabre would look fantastic in Mod Eagle colours with toned-down markings.  :-*
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 06, 2013, 10:16:31 AM
While somewhat simple, why not?

Monogram F-86F with late model Sidewinders, chaff/flare dispensers. Perhaps some sort of ECM bumps here and there.    Engrave the kit and put it into some modern air force somewhere.


Add in a modern one-piece windscreen and a matching canopy and you will have a nice little fighter/attack aircrarft :)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2013, 12:53:25 PM
Well places like Bolivia had the P-51 into the 1970s so why not have F-86s operating somewhere similar until the 21st century.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 06, 2013, 12:57:18 PM
Perhaps also re-engined with a somewhat more modern engine?  Depending on availability and available cash, I could see an engine as old as a J52 being fitted or as new as a F404/RM12/F414.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on April 06, 2013, 01:51:35 PM
Perhaps also re-engined with a somewhat more modern engine?  Depending on availability and available cash, I could see an engine as old as a J52 being fitted or as new as a F404/RM12/F414.

> Am with you on re-engine.  With right pieces, would be a nice build to do in 1/32 with open servicing doors and new engine depicted inside.  Also have other update features evident on model.

> Was at store Thursday and got to talking with former Skyhawk mech.  He says his neighbor has a 1/1 F-86 in shipping crates.  Is looking for a place to assemble it  :o
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 06, 2013, 02:08:47 PM
Too bad he's not down here.  With AAR pulling out of their facility at Alliance Airport, there's a huge building available for that kind of thing and a runway that'll handle the largest aircraft (747-8 came through on tests and I've seen an AN-124 making deliveries or picking some large, buiky items up).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on April 06, 2013, 03:02:15 PM
Talking-Thinking F-86.
Wonder how doable it is to build a 3/4 F-86 akin to pictures I seen of 3/4 P-51.
J-85 or a biz-jet engine for power.  Deleting guns and ammo buys back some down scaling space.  No armor plate room/weight to deal with.
Could be quite the hot rod - yes ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 07, 2013, 09:15:30 AM
either a J85 or a TFE731 would make a good choice for a scaled-down F-86 and the TFE731 is still in production.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 07, 2013, 09:50:48 AM
Maybe a twin engined F-86 ala the G.91Y:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps49a55ee5.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on April 07, 2013, 02:01:11 PM
A RA14 powered, big winged, radar equiped, Sky Flash and Aden armed CAC evolved Sabre.  I have always liked the Fury and am tempted to do an enhanced Sabre based on the FJ4 airframe, perhaps with a streamlined podded radar protruding from a wing leading edge.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on April 08, 2013, 02:25:22 AM
Another aircraft I'd like to put into service with Khemed is the FJ-4 in a principally ground attack role.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 08, 2013, 08:43:20 AM
A RA14 powered, big winged, radar equiped, Sky Flash and Aden armed CAC evolved Sabre.  I have always liked the Fury and am tempted to do an enhanced Sabre based on the FJ4 airframe, perhaps with a streamlined podded radar protruding from a wing leading edge.
Why pod the radar?  Just go with a F-86K nose with a deepened inlet to handle the larger airflow requirement.  That's pretty much what NAA-Columbus was proposing in their FJ-4N proposal to the RCN in competition with the Banshee.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ed s on April 08, 2013, 08:57:01 AM
Talking-Thinking F-86.
Wonder how doable it is to build a 3/4 F-86 akin to pictures I seen of 3/4 P-51.
J-85 or a biz-jet engine for power.  Deleting guns and ammo buys back some down scaling space.  No armor plate room/weight to deal with.
Could be quite the hot rod - yes ?

Wasn't the fiat G91 basically a scaled down F-86. As was the Fuji T-1 trainer.

Ed
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: apophenia on April 09, 2013, 07:07:50 AM
Maybe a twin engined F-86 ala the G.91Y:

Similar to the G.91Y was Canadair's unbuilt 1958 CL-76 project employing CL-13 Sabre components and powered by twin Pratt & Whitney JT12s.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on May 07, 2013, 06:07:14 PM
 :icon_alabanza:G'day all!!

I've just stumbled across this -


It's a RAAF CAC CA-27 Sabre (A94-922), modified as test carrier aircraft for two de Havilland Firestreak (‘Blue Jay’) infra-red homing air-to-air missiles, at Woomera rocket range. Note it’s fuselage belly tank!
It's one missile I never thought of with the Sabre, due to its size and weight! might make an interesting 'What If' RAF weapons load on a profile. As to would the belly tank, to give it extra legs to intercept Soviet Tu-4 Bull's coming in from the Northern Sea ;)

M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 08, 2013, 02:04:04 AM
Nice find - any further info?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on May 08, 2013, 05:05:18 AM
Nice find - any further info?

Theres a writeup and photos in Stewert Wilsons Meteor, Sabre and Mirage in RAAF service book. The belly tank was for avionics.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on May 08, 2013, 05:58:42 AM
G'day blocks!!

I've just stumbled across this -


It's a RAAF CAC CA-27 Sabre (A94-922), modified as test carrier aircraft for two de Havilland Firestreak (‘Blue Jay’) infra-red homing air-to-air missiles, at Woomera rocket range. Note it’s fuselage belly tank!
It's one missile I never thought of with the Sabre, due to its size and weight! might make an interesting 'What If' RAF weapons load on a profile. As to would the belly tank, to give it extra legs to intercept Soviet Tu-4 Bull's coming in from the Northern Sea ;)
It would be an interesting aircraft to add a F-86K-style nose to; you could probably eliminate the belly tank full of avionics.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 06, 2013, 04:06:42 AM
What if in 1955, instead of getting sixteen de Havilland Venoms, the RNZAF got some F-86s?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 06, 2013, 12:13:03 PM
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 06, 2013, 12:33:33 PM
I'd say there are enough differences between them that you couldn't do so convincing (the number of cannon carried being one difference).  I'll try and compare an Avon-Saber conversion with a F-86H kit and get back to you.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on July 06, 2013, 09:54:34 PM
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?

Quite different.  H has IIRC a deeper intake and a slightly shorter fuselage.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 07, 2013, 12:59:23 AM
Question: is an Avon-Sabre similar enough to an F-86H to pass the latter off as the former, or are they too different?

Quite different.  H has IIRC a deeper intake and a slightly shorter fuselage.

As I understand it, the Avon-Sabre had a bigger intake too and a revised fuselage. The Avon-Sabre's was made by putting a wedge section into the fuselage forwards of the wing, while the F-86H had a horizontal split and deepening "over the whole fuselage", though it must have been more complicated than that other wise the jet-pipe orifice would have ended up oval!

The Avon-Sabre's centre fuselage had to be extended backwards and the rae fuselage shortened in order to hold the lighter Avon in the right place for CofG reasons, but I thought the overall length was about the same as the standard Sabre, while the F-86H was about a foot longer.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 07, 2013, 01:02:09 AM
I'd say there are enough differences between them that you couldn't do so convincing (the number of cannon carried being one difference).  I'll try and compare an Avon-Saber conversion with a F-86H kit and get back to you.

Cannons tubes can be filled and re-cut and wings can be swapped. What I can't seem to get a handle on is the fuselage proportions: I can find text accounts of what was done to both of them, but I can't get a good handle on what the visual consequesnces are in 1/72nd scale.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 07, 2013, 01:05:36 AM
Another thought: the FJ-3 Fury was a Sabre with a J-65 and a bigger intake. Since the J-65 was just a licence-built Sapphire and since the Avon and the Sapphire were generally rated as installationally interchangeable, that makes me wonder if the FJ-3 fuselage is basically the same shape as an Avon Sabre?

Again, I know the nose gear was longer, but that could be swapped.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 07, 2013, 10:41:04 AM
Another thought: the FJ-3 Fury was a Sabre with a J-65 and a bigger intake. Since the J-65 was just a licence-built Sapphire and since the Avon and the Sapphire were generally rated as installationally interchangeable, that makes me wonder if the FJ-3 fuselage is basically the same shape as an Avon Sabre?

Again, I know the nose gear was longer, but that could be swapped.

Basically, they probably are, but that begs the question as to whether there are any good FJ-3 kits out there; I don't believe there are.  I'll do a cross-check of the Avon-Sabre and F-86H in 1/72 tomorrow and report the results.  Today involved a lot of errand running.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on July 07, 2013, 05:36:15 PM
Look what I found in a box I haven't opened in a decade
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 07, 2013, 07:26:58 PM
Found this comparing the FJ-2/3 to the F-86:

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/fj23-fury-redux.html (http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/fj23-fury-redux.html)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 08, 2013, 02:31:15 AM
You can get numerous 1/72 kits and conversions for the CAC Avon Sabre from High Planes - see here (http://www.hpmhobbies.com/categories/Scale-Models/Aircraft/1%3A72/Kits/High-Planes-Limited-Edition/).

There are also some on ebay.

For the more distinguished amongst us, there is also a 1/48 Red Roo conversion - see here (http://www.redroomodels.com/conversions.php?conversion=364) + High Planes also do kits.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on July 08, 2013, 06:45:58 AM
I really don't like the way Academy 1/48 kit has its gun troughs.  ::)  Yes, it's a really pathetic peeve of mine but that's just me.   :-\

So the thought of puttying them into oblivion has passed through the Mental Idea Generation Banks and using the inboard pylons for smaller gun pods.   I'm trying to come up with either some sand based color scheme or something similar to the green/green Equadorian Kfirs.   Portugal supports the US in Morocco perhaps.   

Edit:  The same gun pod arrangement could be used on the Sabre Dog perhaps as well.   
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 08, 2013, 11:36:36 AM
Okay, I put the Tasman Avon-Sabre conversion fuselage up against the special Hobby F-86H fuselage.  The F-86H fuselage looks to be deeper and shorter than that of the Avon-Sabre.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on July 08, 2013, 07:11:55 PM
Okay, I put the Tasman Avon-Sabre conversion fuselage up against the special Hobby F-86H fuselage.  The F-86H fuselage looks to be deeper and shorter than that of the Avon-Sabre.

Great stuff - cheers!  :)

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 10, 2013, 12:52:17 PM
Odd thought - a F-86D or F-86K nose, with deepened intake mated to a F-86H for an advanced all-weather interceptor while the more definitely ones finished development.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Litvyak on July 10, 2013, 01:01:04 PM
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 10, 2013, 03:52:58 PM
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on July 11, 2013, 10:52:54 AM
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.

I concur.  It's a bit primitive like all limited-run injection moulded kits but if you add the wings and tailplanes from a good F-86 kit it comes up quite nicely as a recognisable CA 27 Avon Sabre.

There is also an Airmodels CA 27 vacuform conversion model available.  It consists only of the forward fuselage and needs a bit more work (in a different way) compared to the High Planes one.   I have one in my stash and its a quite well moulded.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 11, 2013, 11:24:19 AM
Okay, so a ques - if one wants to do an Aussie Sabre out of a box, without worrying overmuch about this or that hacking things up (which, after several attempts, I'm realising I'm maybe not very good at!), what's the best option for a kit in 1/72?

Maybe the High Planes one at the link above.

I concur.  It's a bit primitive like all limited-run injection moulded kits but if you add the wings and tailplanes from a good F-86 kit it comes up quite nicely as a recognisable CA 27 Avon Sabre.

There is also an Airmodels CA 27 vacuform conversion model available.  It consists only of the forward fuselage and needs a bit more work (in a different way) compared to the High Planes one.   I have one in my stash and its a quite well moulded.

You can still find the conversions that Tasman did on eBay.  That's where I got all mine.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on October 14, 2013, 05:31:21 PM
I'm bringing this back up as I've just started the Airfix 1/72 Canadair Sabre kit and I'd like to explore ejection seat options.

I know some sabres were refitted with more modern seats in their service, but I'm not sure which types.

I'm thinking of either a Martin Baker Mk.2F, Mk.2FV or Mk.4A; all of which I can get easily in resin.

I haven't had time to do a real in depth search for the info, but would anyone know off the top of their heads if any of those three seats were ever fitted to Sabres of if not would at least have been feasible for use in the aircraft?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 15, 2013, 12:31:36 AM
I'm bringing this back up as I've just started the Airfix 1/72 Canadair Sabre kit and I'd like to explore ejection seat options.

I know some sabres were refitted with more modern seats in their service, but I'm not sure which types.

I'm thinking of either a Martin Baker Mk.2F, Mk.2FV or Mk.4A; all of which I can get easily in resin.

I haven't had time to do a real in depth search for the info, but would anyone know off the top of their heads if any of those three seats were ever fitted to Sabres of if not would at least have been feasible for use in the aircraft?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin,

is this for a real world subject or a fictional effort?  If fictional I would consider the seat types used in the Hawker Hunter as a guide and see if that seat will fit your Sabre.  Other candidates from that period would bet he Provost, Wyvern, etc. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on October 15, 2013, 01:21:52 AM
All the RAF Sabres were made by Canadair ( Mk.4's) and it doesn't look like they ever were fitted with an MB seat.

but this might help, found on The Aviation Forum, you could use anything from the Meteor, Vampire, Venom, Sea Hawk --- :

1 Meteor
1CA Canberra
1E Meteor
1F Venom
2A Attacker
2B Wyvern
2CA Canberra
2CB Canberra B(l)8
2D Sea Hawk
2E Meteor
2F Venom
2H Hunter
2HAN Hunter
3A Valiant
3B Vampire T11
3CA Canberra
3CS Canberra PR9 Pilot
3CT1 & 2 Canberra T4
3CT3 Canberra T4
3H
3J Javelin
3K Vulcan
3L Victor
4A Sea Venom
4BSB & 4BSC Lightning
4DSA Sea Vixen
4HA Hunter T7
4MSA Buccaneer S2
4P Jet Provost
4QS Canberra PR9 Nav
5A Phantom
6MSA Buccaneer S2
6MSB Buccaneer S2
7A Phantom
9 &9A
9B Jaguar
9D Harner7a
10A Tornado
10H Sea Harrier
11
12 Harrier GR7

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on October 15, 2013, 02:48:40 AM
M-B Mk.5 in Norwegian F-86F and some Bundesluft Sabre Mk.6.
The canopy slide mechanism had to be modified to allow it to
slide further aft to clear the M-B seat, it also raised up slightly
when slid aft in comparison to regular Sabres.
Evidently not popular with all German pilots as it was not as
comfortable as the C-2 and blocked vision to the rear, thus the
extra rear-view mirrors found in some German Sabres.

Info from The Canadair Sabre by Larry Milberry.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: upnorth on October 15, 2013, 04:47:49 AM
Thanks for the input guys.

The model is going to be fictitious as part of my Divided Austria storyline.

The premise is that the West Austrian Sabres got new ejection seats as part of an upgrade and service extension program.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 23, 2013, 05:45:52 AM
Andrea De Vincentiis is ADV Models and he has just shared images of a completed model of his 1:48th scale Fiat G.91Y Yankee resin and multi-media model kit (http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/galleries/fiatg91y48adv_1.htm) at HyperScale. 

(http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/galleries/p7hg_img_79/fullsize/0_fs.jpg) (http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/galleries/fiatg91y48adv_1.htm)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 23, 2013, 04:50:59 PM
I can attest the the beauty of this kit.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 16, 2013, 11:36:33 AM
Advanced F-86 (see first post in this thread)

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/F-86_F100.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/F-86_F100.jpg.html)

... and a variation

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/F-86_01.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/F-86_01.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on November 16, 2013, 11:41:48 AM
The alternate design for F-93.
86 + 100 = 186
186/2 = 93
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 16, 2013, 12:46:09 PM
 :) ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 17, 2013, 02:27:57 AM
That does look good.  :)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 17, 2013, 03:37:18 AM
Evolve it one more step, much like the one that served as a testbed for the F-100 configuration, raise the airbrakes and lower the horizontal tail for an intermediate step between this and the full-out Super Sabre.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Daryl J. on November 17, 2013, 04:16:08 PM
Since the U.S. Army considered the Fiat G.91, why not also the FJ-4 Fury?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: aerospacer on November 17, 2013, 11:36:06 PM
How about an 'almost real' soviet Sabre http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18140.0.html? (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18140.0.html?)

Martin
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on March 22, 2014, 02:20:52 PM
Something different:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/145/76869744.jpg)

Quote
A rare picture of a CL-13 (a license built F-86 made by Canadair) Sabre being evaluated by the Israeli Air Force in the 1950's. The Israeli Air Force seen the great performance of the F-86, that they were planning to buy 24 of them. However, political issues and Arab opposition killed the purchase and decided to get the French made fighters like the Dassault Mystere instead.

[Source (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?220875-Concept-Canceled-Proposed-Rumored-Military-amp-Civilian-Projects/page10)]
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 12:28:20 AM
http://www.unicraft.biz/na295-th.jpg (http://www.unicraft.biz/na295-th.jpg)

http://www.unicraft.biz/ (http://www.unicraft.biz/)

Ummm....wow I need one of these!
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on March 27, 2014, 08:59:47 AM
LOTS of bad stories around about unicraft.   :(
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 09:08:16 AM
Oh?  I hadn't heard of them at all before to be honest, good or bad, do tell.

I had never heard of the AF-1F either and am fascinated, a TF-30 powered A-7 competitor.  Makes a Spey powered, ADEN armed CAC version come to mind.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Frank3k on March 27, 2014, 09:21:41 AM
Unicraft is a one-man model company from Ukraine. He has great model designs and the masters are usually top notch, but the resin products are typically very "rustic". Parts usually have huge gaps or other issues (poor resin, surface defects, etc.). They're buildable, but they require a lot of effort and patience as well as a well stocked parts bin. I think Tophe has done a great job with a few Unicraft kits.

Igor used to make plastic models - he would heat a sheet of plastic and push it into a mold... by hand. You would occasionally see a part with a fingerprint embedded in the plastic. All the parts had one side covered by a scorched, carbonized material (paper?)

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 09:55:40 AM
Ok thanks for that.

Does anyone have any info on the AF-1F, I have been looking since I found the wiki reference last night and the only image I have found is the Unicraft kit.  I wouldn't mind finding out more about it and the super Skyhawk too for that matter.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on March 27, 2014, 09:58:19 AM
Ok thanks for that.

Does anyone have any info on the AF-1F, I have been looking since I found the wiki reference last night and the only image I have found is the Unicraft kit.  I wouldn't mind finding out more about it and the super Skyhawk too for that matter.
The American Secret Projects book on bombers, attack aircraft, and anti-submarine aircraft covers these and other entrants against the Vought design that became the A-7.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 10:03:45 AM
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on March 27, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).
A word of warning, that book is OOP and you have to watch the prices on the used ones to grab a reasonably priced one when it shows up.  I finally got lucky and got mine for about what it ran new, usually they are listed for 3x or 4x that.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 12:18:12 PM
Thanks for that, another book to add to my wish list.  I wish I just had a decent book shop hear that I could drop into, find and buy what I wanted instead of having to justify ordering online.  Walking into a shop and buying something is seen as an understandable weakness and is forgiven, deliberately ordering something is classed as a premeditated offence (unless its shoes or a handbag).
A word of warning, that book is OOP and you have to watch the prices on the used ones to grab a reasonably priced one when it shows up.  I finally got lucky and got mine for about what it ran new, usually they are listed for 3x or 4x that.

Yes saw that $230 used $400 new, ouch, it can wait I think.  I did however splurge on Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers, British Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates as well and Browns Nelson to Vanguard and Rebuilding the Royal Navy.  Once the payment is noticed you may not hear from me again.........
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: arkon on March 27, 2014, 01:42:09 PM

Yes saw that $230 used $400 new, ouch, it can wait I think.  I did however splurge on Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers, British Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates as well and Browns Nelson to Vanguard and Rebuilding the Royal Navy.  Once the payment is noticed you may not hear from me again.........

drop her off at shoe store while you pick up "home improvement" items
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 27, 2014, 03:53:20 PM
Glad that I got my copy when the book first was released.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 27, 2014, 03:56:33 PM
Some details of the NA-295 here (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,143.msg123455.html#msg123455)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 27, 2014, 08:15:40 PM
Thanks for that, the pics don't show up anymore though.  Interesting concept has got me imagining RAAF and RAN versions built by CAC as a response to Indonesia's USSR supplied kit.  Initial response would be an Australianised FJ-4 and FJ-4B followed by the AF-1F which in turn would eventually be replaced with land and carrier based derivatives of the Mirage F1  ;D.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on March 27, 2014, 10:12:16 PM
Thanks for that, the pics don't show up anymore though. 

You have to sign in to see any pics on that forum --
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on March 28, 2014, 08:23:36 AM
Thanks for that, I suppose I had better join then  :)
Thought about it but never gotten around to it before, I notice a few of you are on there so why not.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on May 02, 2014, 02:11:38 AM
How small a carrier could the FJ-4 be operated from?  Could it for instance have been launched and recovered by a modernised Majestiic class CVL, or was an Essex pretty much the smallest platform it could fly from.

My thinking is instead of waiting until the mid 60s to order the Skyhawk the RAN FAA opted for a CAC manufactured, Avon powered, ADEN armed FJ-4 in the early 60s to counter Indonesia's MIG 17/19/21 and supplement then replace the Sea Venom.  Could this aircraft have been successfully operated from Melbourne and a reconstructed Sydney, or would it have need a larger platfrom?

Any takers?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on May 07, 2014, 01:15:22 AM
FJ-4, not likely, FJ-4B with the additional air brakes that were added to lower approach speed, maybe.
It's possible that with the right mods to the landing gear and the arresting gear on the ship that a
4B could be slammed onto a Majestic on a regular basis.
 ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on May 07, 2014, 08:53:30 PM
FJ-4, not likely, FJ-4B with the additional air brakes that were added to lower approach speed, maybe.
It's possible that with the right mods to the landing gear and the arresting gear on the ship that a
4B could be slammed onto a Majestic on a regular basis.
 ;D

Outstanding, roo roundels and CAC Avon / ADEN FJ-4B Fury here I come!
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 08, 2014, 02:19:15 AM
Some inspiration for you:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/FJ-4FuryGreg01.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/FJ-4FuryGreg02.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on May 08, 2014, 04:43:34 AM
Tah, the EDSG over Sky scheme I think.  Just need some decals to suit in 1/48
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 07, 2014, 04:37:10 AM
Random Idea:  Recon derivative of CAC Sabre as RAAF Tactical Recon aircraft.  Basically cross a CAC Sabre with a RF-86:

(http://www.wetwing.com/military/jsdf/jsdffoto/rf86f.jpg)

I would remove all the guns.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on September 08, 2014, 12:07:16 AM
Use a ventral canoe like the Skyflash trails Sabres had but fitted out with recon gear instead of telemetry stuff.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on September 08, 2014, 12:54:45 AM
The F-86 is my all time favorite jet - bar none.  Highlight of my trip back to the UK in 2002 was seeing one flying at Duxford
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on September 09, 2014, 07:46:35 AM
Random Idea:  Recon derivative of CAC Sabre as RAAF Tactical Recon aircraft.  Basically cross a CAC Sabre with a RF-86:

([url]http://www.wetwing.com/military/jsdf/jsdffoto/rf86f.jpg[/url])

I would remove all the guns.


It looks as if the guns have been removed. The gun ports in the pic look decidedly painted-on. Quite interesting. A little digging has revealed that both the Fujimi 1/72 and the Hasegawa 1/48 kits have you fill-in the gun ports and use a "make-believe gun port" decal instead.

Use a ventral canoe like the Skyflash trails Sabres had but fitted out with recon gear instead of telemetry stuff.


Interesting. Any pics of that? Reading about Skyflashs on Sabres.... how about some early Sparrows for the F-86D?  >:D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 09, 2014, 08:40:02 AM
I think FireStreak missile trial is the one being thought of:

(http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AI/AI58-1/16-1.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on September 09, 2014, 11:54:00 AM
I think FireStreak missile trial is the one being thought of:

([url]http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AI/AI58-1/16-1.jpg[/url])


Yep that one, I blame the drugs!
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on September 09, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
Firestreak installation with a modified (deeper intake) F-86K nose on an Avon-powered Sabre?  A recce variant of that same nose, much like a larger version of the G.91R nose?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on September 09, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on September 09, 2014, 11:28:30 PM
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?

That was the plan if the missile was adopted, build an Australian Sabre Dog.  As it was a minimal upgrade with AIM-9B went ahead instead.

Would have loved to have seen CAC base later Sabres on the Fury airframe and build them as fighter bombers for the RAAF and RAN FAA.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on September 10, 2014, 01:27:13 AM
I was just thinking the Firestreaks would go better on a Sabre Dog --- and I've got a pile of Firesteaks from Freightdog just waiting for an application like that.  What about some Red Deans as an alternative ?

Hmm! what if we put a wing and the longer legs from an FJ-4 onto a D or K ?
You'd need to deepen the D/K intake to match the requirements of the Avon, but it would be doable.  I understand NAA-Columbus looked at something like that, with a J65/Sapphire, in response to the Canadian requirement that saw them buy Banshess.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on September 10, 2014, 05:26:24 AM
Well there's a project just waiting to be done I think, if I grafted the lower forward fuselage/nose off an FJ-4 to the bottom of a D or K, we could cover the bigger air intake this way don't ya think ---  plus it would cover the nose wheel bay quite nicely and it will definitely have Canadian markings.

And I've also got a bunch of Red Deans in the stash too   ---  ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on September 10, 2014, 07:14:10 AM
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on September 10, 2014, 08:39:05 AM
I was also thinking of a simplified Canadian naval all-weather fighter using a F-86K with FJ-4 wings and an Orenda engine, perhaps replacing the F-86K's cannon with ADENs.


In otherwords, a Sea Dingo (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.0)? ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on September 10, 2014, 10:23:25 AM
Why ever not?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on November 19, 2014, 10:44:45 PM
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 20, 2014, 01:55:12 AM
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on November 20, 2014, 03:40:00 AM
XP-86 straight wing I think would have been a really nice aircraft to fly, found quite a few other aircraft which seem to have been influenced by it ---
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on November 20, 2014, 08:09:16 PM
Would an FJ-4B powered by a Avon 301, less the after burner, with its 12690lb (dry) thrust have been supersonic in level flight?  This is based on the FJ-4F with a 7700lb thrust Sapphire and a 5000lb thrust rocket being capable of Mach 1.41.
Quite possibly, though I don't know if it could do it at sea level (then again, as far as I know, only the F-105 and A3J airframes were designed to just that).

I am thinking in terms of a CAC follow on from, or be built instead of, the CA32 Avon Sabre, something that could have realistically been developed locally but still offered a worthwhile increase in performance and above all would be easy to model  ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 21, 2014, 02:22:32 AM
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on November 21, 2014, 07:26:20 AM
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle,

You can get just the fuselage from High Planes (got one right on my workbench at the moment), everything else comes from a Hobbycraft or Fujimi kit.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 21, 2014, 09:33:38 AM
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of Ł20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.

Now on the other hand, I've already got an Emhar FJ-4 which was cheap becuase the box is tatty, and a couple of other projects that will leave me with spare F-86D wings anyway.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 21, 2014, 11:22:27 AM
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 21, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
Since making an Avon-Sabre in model form is quite a struggle, I've been considering an alternative for my timeline in which the UK starts buying/joint-projecting US and European hardware much earlier. How about a Sapphire-Sabre, which consists of an FJ-4 fuselage with standard Sabre wings? Note that this would be an RAF/RAAF project not a naval one, since the FAA would be committed to the Panther/Cougar/Tiger line, so small carrier compatibility wouldn't be an issue.

If the UK partner was Supermarine, it would be a Triple-S: a Supermarine-Sapphire-Sabre.... ;)
If they did it a bit earlier, they could use an FJ-3 fuselage, which also housed a J65/Sapphire, with standard Sabre wings.  The FJ-4 incorporated improvements to both fuselage and wing design and I could see that as a Sapphire Sabre Mk.2.

True, but then the only FJ-3 kit I know of in 1/72nd is the Falcon vacform conversion.

Here's a thought: if it's going to be a Supermarine Sapphire Sabre, how about putting a Swift wing on it?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 22, 2014, 03:20:17 AM
Cross posting some inspiration:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/CA-28Butterworth.jpg)

From Sabre Dingo (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.0)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on November 22, 2014, 09:21:57 PM
Yes, I've seen the High Planes Avon Sabre. The problem I have with it though is that a) it works out pretty expensive (thick end of Ł20 for the conversion and the donor) and b) the real life Avon Sabre doesn't look much different to the normal Sabre unless you put them side-by-side.


Airmodel in Germany do an Avon Sabre vacuform conversion for considerably cheaper than the High Planes one. (http://www.airmodel.de/product_info.php?info=p78_rf-86h-k---tf-86---ca-27.html)  However, the High Planes model or conversion (they do a complete kit as well as just a fuselage), if purchased direct from Singapore I'm sure works out much cheaper than 20 quid, it is also injection moulded.

Also, the 30mm cannon nose is considerably different to a standard Sabre nose, while the fuselage should be slightly deeper.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2014, 09:43:53 AM
Cross posting some inspiration:

([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/CA-28Butterworth.jpg[/url])

From Sabre Dingo ([url]http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.0[/url])


Just realised what's been bugging me about this profile. In the Sabre, the intake duct goes under the cockpit floor and then up to the centreline to meet the engine, so the back-seater in the TF-86 actually sat higher than the pilot, not lower. The side profile of the TF-86 on Airmodel's site that Rickshaw linked confirms this. Can't link it from their site but here's another profile that shows what I'm talking about:

(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/modernplanes/north-american/north-american-tf-86d-sabre.png)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 23, 2014, 10:12:19 AM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2014, 10:25:20 AM

Airmodel in Germany do an Avon Sabre vacuform conversion for considerably cheaper than the High Planes one. ([url]http://www.airmodel.de/product_info.php?info=p78_rf-86h-k---tf-86---ca-27.html[/url])  However, the High Planes model or conversion (they do a complete kit as well as just a fuselage), if purchased direct from Singapore I'm sure works out much cheaper than 20 quid, it is also injection moulded.



Cheers for the info about Airmodel: some interesting stuff there.

The Avon Sabre full kit is listed at Ł19.66 on HPM Hobbies website, or Ł8.85 for just the conversion. The latter is the only one actually in stock at the moment, and there's another Ł4.97 for shipment to the UK. The cheapest of the recommended donor kits I can find on a quick search is Ł13.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2014, 10:32:42 AM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on November 23, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.


Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want


That is my intention.  One of my earilest Whiffs was a Sabre Sea Dingo (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,29708.msg452694.html#msg452694) but I used a combination of the High Planes fuselage, the Airfix F-86D and the Fuji T-1 cockpit.  I've never been happy with it and have long intended redoing it.   After I'd built it I purchased the airmodel vacuform and it's sat waiting for me to get around to it.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on November 23, 2014, 12:00:53 PM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 23, 2014, 12:12:04 PM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want
If I was going to do an Avon- or Sapphire- powered radar-equipped variant, I'd likely get two because you'll need to deepen the inlet to accommodate the higher mass flow either of those engines require (not that the FJ-3 has a rather deeper intake than the equivalent F-86 and that was carried over to the FJ-4 - if memory serves me correctly, the first XFJ-2's were navalized F-86Es but the production ones had a J65 and a deeper intake and this was enlarged somewhat further on the FJ-3).  Given that the Orenda gives more "poke" without needing a larger intake, I could see an navalized F-86K with an Orenda installed flying off HMCS Bonaventure; I've heard that a cross between that and a FJ-4 was proposed by NAA-Columbus in the competition that led to F2H Banshees flying in that role.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 23, 2014, 12:41:13 PM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:

I've long gone to the dark side...mind you, I am still more of an engineer than some I have worked with.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on November 23, 2014, 12:49:43 PM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.

So sad, yet another engineer ruined by working in management.  ;)  :icon_fsm:

I've long gone to the dark side...mind you, I am still more of an engineer than some I have worked with.
Yes Dear, I know that.

Oops, sorry I was channelling Brook there.  ;)  ;D
 :icon_fsm:

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on November 23, 2014, 01:00:11 PM
How about refitting F-86 with a F414.  Build one dry and one wet.
Turn em loose at an airshow !
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 23, 2014, 02:04:58 PM
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.

How about having it based on an F-86D airframe with two of those closed-breech rocket guns they tested on the F-89 fitted in the faired-over former intake?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Silver Fox on November 23, 2014, 11:21:05 PM
Make it an inexpensive Close Air Support type with a radome mounted over a electro-optical turret. With the intake trunk available as space, build in a 30mm chain gun as internal armament. Pylons normally carry Hellfire/Brimstone or rocket pods.

Of course, in my universe this is the Canadair/Bombardier Sabre Mk 7. :)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 23, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
All kinds of missions come to mind. All the space formerly taken up by the internal engine would be available for fuel, etc. As a fast FAC it could be on station for a long time. It would have to carry lots of rocket pods for target marking.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on November 23, 2014, 11:45:29 PM
I wouldn't get too worried - remember that we are talking about a totally fictional aircraft here.


Very doable though: the Airmodel vac-form set that Rickshaw linked has CA-27, F-86K and TF-86 fuselages and canopies in it so you could always mix the bits up to get just what you want


And I've got this conversion set

http://www.modelcraftsandhobbies.co.nz/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=4603&category_id=46bf5e49e86e462f13c403ffd5bcdee2& (http://www.modelcraftsandhobbies.co.nz/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=4603&category_id=46bf5e49e86e462f13c403ffd5bcdee2&)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 24, 2014, 01:44:40 AM
I keep thinking of an F-86 rebuilt like the Skyfox with a radome in place of the inlet and two turbofan engines mounted A-10 style. That space from the inlet could hold a lot of electronics or some butt kickn' guns.
Putting on my engineer's hat, I can say that I've seen the report on NAA's study of doing just that and it would require major airframe rebuild since the intake area is essentially stressed only for the aerodynamic loads of the air flowing through to the engine and the surrounding structure matches.  Sealing that space off and filling it with fuel, avionics, or whatever would require major rebuilding and a new airframe would be cheaper.  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on November 24, 2014, 02:19:00 AM
  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.

YF-93 in other words --
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 24, 2014, 02:39:12 AM
  It would probably make more sense to reuse the wings and tail surfaces on a new fuselage set up and optimized for what you intend to do with it.

YF-93 in other words --
Among other possibilities, yes.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 24, 2014, 04:41:03 AM
I have no doubt what you say is true. But I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with. Of course I need to find an unsuspecting biz jet in 1/72nd scale to steal the engines from.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 24, 2014, 07:06:17 AM
I have no doubt what you say is true. But I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with. Of course I need to find an unsuspecting biz jet in 1/72nd scale to steal the engines from.
Find an unsuspecting A-10 for a bit of overkill.  Best bet is finding a 1/72 30-series Learjet.  In 1/48, the Falcon 10 kit from Hasegawa would be perfect since the Skyfox used the same engines and nacelles and it could carry over.  For the F-86 kit, you could separate the fuselage at the point where it splits for engine removal and fabricate a new rear fuselage using the same tail surfaces.  Put a sharply sloped-down nose on it, with the guts and windows of a modern targeting pod and use it as a "Fast-FAC" that can designate targets for incoming "fast movers".
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on November 24, 2014, 08:47:28 AM
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 24, 2014, 09:19:45 AM
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on November 24, 2014, 09:36:49 AM
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.


Engines off a 1/72 Canadair Challenger would work there I think, or a Canadair CRJ200. Or maybe off a BAe 125
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on November 24, 2014, 10:02:09 AM
I have an F-86 kit I just don't know what else to do with.
How about an overall green Sabre as an OA-86/A-86 Sabre in U.S. Army service? 

Some modifications to consider:

- Reduce the number of guns to four (gives you more rounds for the remaining weapons which means more strafing passes)

- Add inflight refueling probe from an F-100 Super Sabre or the A-4 Skyhawk for hose and drogue refueling.  Not sure where the best location would be but it would make perfect sense to have AAR capability for range and loiter purposes over the objective.   

- Add a fifth and sixth stores pylon outboard of the existing stations.  This would give the aircraft six stores pylons, of which two would almost always be dedicated to fuel stores. 


Some weapons to consider for arming your Army OA-86/A-86:

- Three shot 4.5"(115 mm) FFAR rockets that were used on the P-47 and P-51 before the introduction of the 5.0" (127 mm) HVAR

- HVAR 5.0" (127 mm) aircraft rockets on the special rocket mounts that were available on the outboard wing sections (these were spring-loaded so that after the rocket fired it would retract flush into the wing).  This same feature was also used on some versions of the F-84F Thunderjet.  I believe the normal load of HVAR on the F-86 was eight rockets (four per wing). 

- Other stores would include general purpose bombs, fragmentation bombs, fire bombs, cluster bombs, munitions clusters, flares, smoke tanks, chemical weapons dispensers and other stores up to the weight limits of each pylon. 

Note there is no suggestion of air-to-air missiles as that would impinge on the responsibilities of the Air Force so the ground attack Sabre would have to rely on machine guns or speed to defend against any air threat.  Not sure if the USAF would have accepted it but as a what-if it is almost ideal. 

The only other modification I could think of would be to upgrade the ejection seat and give it a new canopy with more room to view things.  Maybe the canopy from an A-10 would work? 

Later variants of the OA-86/A-86 might be given the capability to carry and launch guided weapons such as the Pave Way series Laser Guided Bombs, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-114 Hellfire, and other modern air to surface weapons if it were to soldier on for any length of time. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on November 24, 2014, 10:04:28 AM
How about a 1/144 scale A-10 for engines on a 1/72 Sabre?
I'd think that quite a plausible approach.


Engines off a 1/72 Canadair Challenger would work there I think, or a Canadair CRJ200. Or maybe off a BAe 125
if memory serves me correctly, there was a kit of the HS.125-600 with turbofan engines in 1/72; that would be ideal for this Sabre conversion.  1/72 CRJ200 engines would be the same size as A-10 engines and a bit overpowering for the Sabre, 1/144 CRJ200 engines would work out as "just right".
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on November 24, 2014, 10:35:38 AM
Revell 1/100 A-10 kit engines power the Slowy Jet.
Thatz a possibility.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 25, 2014, 01:06:01 AM
I have the 1/100 A-10 kit. I should try it. Like I need to start another project. I should check the biz jets you guys mentioned too
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 25, 2014, 02:26:47 AM
Maybe use the YF-93 as the basis for this "skybox" style creation:

(http://prototypes.free.fr/yf93/images/yf93_10.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 25, 2014, 08:55:35 AM
It would be hard to stick with the Skyfox comparison for a backstory as most F-86s that have survived are museum pieces by now. Whiff world will allow me to stretch the "truth" a little more I hope. Or I could fashion some pods that look like they contain turbojets and say they are J-85s.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 26, 2014, 01:42:57 AM
Have it as being upgraded by some South American or African nation maybe…or simply a different development path?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on November 26, 2014, 05:26:11 AM
An Air Force somewhere that had been gathering all the Sabre airframes and parts they could find from around the world. (There were a lot of Sabres built!) One day they started putting things together, not enough engines so civil biz jet engines were aquired. Don't ask questions and we won't have to lie to you......
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Weaver on November 26, 2014, 05:32:37 AM
Cross posting some inspiration:

([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/CA-28Butterworth.jpg[/url])

From Sabre Dingo ([url]http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.0[/url])


Just realised what's been bugging me about this profile. In the Sabre, the intake duct goes under the cockpit floor and then up to the centreline to meet the engine, so the back-seater in the TF-86 actually sat higher than the pilot, not lower. The side profile of the TF-86 on Airmodel's site that Rickshaw linked confirms this. Can't link it from their site but here's another profile that shows what I'm talking about:

([url]http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/modernplanes/north-american/north-american-tf-86d-sabre.png[/url])


Interestingly, Dassault produced a near equivalent of this called the Mystere IVN, using the Mystere IV airframe, AN/APG-33 radar and an Avon engine:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Dassault_Mystere_IV_N_in_flight_c1956.jpg)

The AdA evaluated it but ended up choosing the Vautour and the F-86K instead. IIRC, the principle objection to the IVN was lack of fuel.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on October 05, 2015, 11:00:36 PM
I've been looking through the old, but still excellent, book on the Sabre and derivatives by Eric Morgan and I noticed something, the Orenda version fitted to the Sabre Mk.6 quite matches the Avon and Sapphire in the Australian Sabres and Navy Furies, respectively, without needing the higher airflow either requires.  So, what if Australia had gone in with Canada on Sabre development and not had to do as extreme a redesign for their use?  By the same token, imagine Orenda-powered Furies flying from RCN carriers.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on February 16, 2016, 06:33:26 PM
If this has been mentioned somewhere else I apologise.

At least one F-86 (and I believe a small batch) was delivered to the Iraqi air force at the time of the revolution but never entered service as the head of the AF was a communist and wanted closer ties with the USSR. Just a thought.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Rickshaw on February 17, 2016, 08:34:54 AM
I've been looking through the old, but still excellent, book on the Sabre and derivatives by Eric Morgan and I noticed something, the Orenda version fitted to the Sabre Mk.6 quite matches the Avon and Sapphire in the Australian Sabres and Navy Furies, respectively, without needing the higher airflow either requires.  So, what if Australia had gone in with Canada on Sabre development and not had to do as extreme a redesign for their use?  By the same token, imagine Orenda-powered Furies flying from RCN carriers.

I've often been enamoured of the John Blaxland idea of greater co-operation between Australia and Canada.   We are both Dominions, of a similar size and have similar political outlooks, aspirations and views on most issues.  However, in real life Oz always looked to first the UK and then later the US for its ideas, politics and defence materiale'.  It was a shame really, as there were many opportunities which were missed and continue to be missed.  If, after WWII, Canada had, had a more Pacific view in it's foreign policy and Australia a more Northwards view in it's, there could have been quite a meeting of views.   Canada however remained firmly locked on the North Atlantic and hence Europe, while Oz looked primarily to Asia.

It might have seen greater co-operation in South Korea, acted as a brake on our involvement in Vietnam and seen greater co-operation in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Blaxland hypothesised in 2002 a joint Canadian-Australian Brigade in Iraq in 2003.   We both operated Leopard 1s, M113s.  Canada decided to purchase Leopard 2s, we decided to purchase M1s.   In the air, you have your aforementioned Sabre possibility.  If we had both gone into the great white hope of the Canadians, the CF-105, it might not have been so easily cancelled.   We did need a Mach 2 fighter at the time and the CF-105 was supposedly exemplary.  Instead we ended up with the Mirage III and the Canadians with the F-104.   :(
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on February 18, 2016, 02:09:58 AM
Canada looked to the Atlantic for the simple reason that the Ottawa powerbase was completely Anglo-Centric,
the powersharing with the West Coast that a Pacific view would have entailed simply wasn't going to happen. Hell,
the Ottawa establishment still considers the West and West Coast as backwards upstarts.

The F-104 was never intended to fill the continental air defense role envisioned for the CF-105, that role was
filled by the F-101, the F-104 was picked to fulfill NATO commitments, and probably would have been purchased
for that role even if the CF-105 had proceeded.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on February 18, 2016, 02:43:08 AM
Is exactly the intra Canada relationship I encountered from discussing Canadian politics with British Columbia friends.
Right on,,, couldn't said it better !
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Kerick on February 18, 2016, 06:19:52 AM
In the US try talking about anything with a New Yorker.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 22, 2016, 07:34:20 PM
John Lacey posted some F-86Ds in RAF colours:

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13220981_1701070820147699_974772314121109130_n.jpg?oh=2b9619b87f861858bdd91d52fb85909d&oe=579C1A29)
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13221734_1701070806814367_2182980707635430316_n.jpg?oh=9849aa3de4f2eae9ef8dcde7b7348b0a&oe=579A585E)
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13254550_1701070803481034_7407048719976885235_n.jpg?oh=8b2bfe094d217ee667b8e8ea119cadf2&oe=57E535E7)

Source: Facebook - John's Aircraft & Armour Profile Page
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on February 12, 2017, 11:11:13 PM
G’day gents

I've once again been looking through Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects (page 50 & 51) - the precursor to the F-100 Super Sabre!

I'm thinking of a backstory pertaining to a more conservative evolution of the F-86 Sabre design by North American Aviation, as opposed to them taking a more riskier and expensive jump directly to the F-100 Super Sabre.
As in the case of the Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau did with their improving of the combat tested and proven MiG-15 Fagot, which evolved into the improved MiG-17 Fresco, before they took the jump to the supersonic and more radical MiG-19 Farmer design!

So it is, that I'm hoping, that someone out there might have 3-view drawings or profiles of the proposed 'Advanced F-86 / Sabre 45' or if someone is willing to have a crack at creating some of these 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' profiles. 

P.S. I have to apologise, as I only have this picture from the book!!

M.A.D

Just realised how much these look like the Super Mystere B2, I wonder if you could bash an advanced sabre out of a super mystere?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 09, 2017, 04:24:57 AM
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:

(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-927/Sabre_A94_927_with_standing_roo_roundel_Photo_via_Keith_Gaff.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on April 10, 2017, 03:10:47 PM
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:

([url]http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-927/Sabre_A94_927_with_standing_roo_roundel_Photo_via_Keith_Gaff.jpg[/url])


Yes, that's different Greg!

M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 11, 2017, 12:27:40 PM
If you want to confound someone, get a load of the "Standing Kangaroo" roundel on this RAAF Sabre:

([url]http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-927/Sabre_A94_927_with_standing_roo_roundel_Photo_via_Keith_Gaff.jpg[/url])

Please tell me decals of this variant are available.  That has to be done.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kim margosein on April 12, 2017, 06:30:36 AM
Some company years ago did a generic RAAF sheet which included some boxing kangaroo roundels.  This is astounding.  The only other aircraft I have seen with these rondels is a deHavilland Beaver.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2017, 03:30:14 AM
The only other aircraft I have seen with these rondels is a deHavilland Beaver.


Indeed.

(http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Admin/HistoryRecord/images/boxingroo.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ADF%20Telegraph%202016%20Spring_zpsotpf6v2v.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ADF%20Telegraph%202016%20Spring2_zpsoely6bkv.jpg)

BTW, here is the original voting choice for which Roundel to use:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ADF%20Telegraph%202016%20Spring3_zpsdrtzm8zg.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2017, 03:39:00 AM
Some company years ago did a generic RAAF sheet which included some boxing kangaroo roundels. 


There is/was also a set in both 1/72 and 1.48 from Max Decals for the Beaver (it was part of their Antarctic Aviation Series):

(http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/maxdecals7208reviewbg_2.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2017, 03:42:52 AM
And just closing off the discussion re roundels, there is this:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ADF%20Telegraph%202016%20Spring4_zpszezv8k2i.jpg)

I understand the painter is still trying to extract his WOE's boot from his rear end... ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 14, 2017, 02:48:19 PM
Subtle crossings between SMB2 and Sabre.

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/SMB2-Sabre_cross.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/SMB2-Sabre_cross.jpg.html)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on July 26, 2018, 02:44:03 AM
Some RW Sabre design information.

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37825140_2344765232262421_2060587148112822272_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=7ad8ce28101b73910736d57d4079d311&oe=5BC7C3C3)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on July 26, 2018, 06:48:34 AM
Thinking of an F-86K with F-86L wing and Canadair Sabre Mk.6 engine fit as a "low" part of a "high-low" interceptor mix for Canada, and possibly others.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on July 26, 2018, 02:48:59 PM
I was thinking Canuckistan K with Sabre 6 wings, no tip extension.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 20, 2018, 10:52:32 PM
I think FireStreak missile trial is the one being thought of:

([url]http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AI/AI58-1/16-1.jpg[/url])


Yep that one, I blame the drugs!


Found this video.  De Havilland Firestreak Guided Missile (1957): https://youtu.be/CGaMYfyLwD8

Goto 1:50 to see the F-86 portion.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 21, 2018, 03:12:26 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on December 21, 2018, 04:59:14 PM
Very cool!

A very simple what if, a productionised version of the trail configuration becomes an interim RAAF night and all weather fighter.  Sqn sizes are increased for each to incorporate a flight of Avon Sabre FAW.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 21, 2018, 10:18:46 PM
Makes me wonder why F-86D's weren't acquired more
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 22, 2018, 01:41:01 AM
Makes me wonder why F-86D's weren't acquired more

I can fix that Robert.  ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 22, 2018, 03:03:40 AM
Makes me wonder why F-86D's weren't acquired more

I can fix that Robert.  ;D

Yeah! it's got my 'little grey cells' going into overtime too ---  ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 22, 2018, 06:59:16 AM
<...> 'little grey cells' <...>

"Belgian Sabre Dog, please, madam!"
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on December 22, 2018, 02:48:59 PM
Makes me wonder why F-86D's weren't acquired more
Or the F-86K used more widely.  I think I'd rather have the cannons than the retractable rocket cells.  You could still update the wing to carry desired AAM's (Sidewinder, Firestreak, et al.).  For a somewhat "out there" whif, and RAF variant of the F-86K with the Fairey Skyflash.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 22, 2018, 10:16:59 PM
Makes me wonder why F-86D's weren't acquired more
Or the F-86K used more widely.  I think I'd rather have the cannons than the retractable rocket cells.  You could still update the wing to carry desired AAM's (Sidewinder, Firestreak, et al.).  For a somewhat "out there" whif, and RAF variant of the F-86K with the Fairey Skyflash.

Yes the K, a much better idea -- :smiley:   Now I have something to put that Tauro kit to good use ---
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 23, 2018, 02:27:13 AM
What about a FJ Fury derived from the F-86D Sabre Dog?  Maybe even have one with a pair of Sparrow missiles...
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 23, 2018, 03:45:06 AM
You were saying Greg .....

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4880/45699488774_b3782a42a0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cCiPSf)
RCN-CL-13A-Sea-Dog (https://flic.kr/p/2cCiPSf) by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 23, 2018, 03:49:45 AM
Not seeing any Sparrows... ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 23, 2018, 07:28:56 AM
What about a FJ Fury derived from the F-86D Sabre Dog?  Maybe even have one with a pair of Sparrow missiles...

While doing my Crecy engined Sabre Dog, I got to thinking it could really do with FJ-4 wings. I even went out and bought another FJ-4 kit to donate it's wings to the project but as usual, not got around to actually converting it.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 23, 2018, 10:51:39 AM
Not seeing any Sparrows... ;)

This was drawn just after a live fire exercise and before the armourers reloaded the A/C.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on December 23, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
What about a FJ Fury derived from the F-86D Sabre Dog?  Maybe even have one with a pair of Sparrow missiles...
Cross of FJ-4 and either F-86D or F-86K?  That would work most nicely.  I could even see a RAN FAA variant with an Avon instead of a J65/Sapphire used by the FJ-3 & -4.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on December 23, 2018, 04:42:24 PM
Sabre Dog or not its been a long term project of mine to do a CAC Avon / Aden FJ-4 / 4B of the RAN FAA.  I'm curious, could Melbourne have operated the FJ-4 without too much issue, or do I need a different carrier for my back story?  My thinking is the helicarrier idea never gets up (possibly Sydney gets her cancelled modernisation as well) and a suitable strike fighter is desired for the FAA to supplement the Sea Venom, hence CAC developing a version of the Fury.  This fury could also replace the earlier Sabres, supplementing the Mirage (or even open the possibility of acquiring an interceptor or air superiority type instead of the multi role Miracle).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 24, 2018, 02:29:56 AM
I'm curious, could Melbourne have operated the FJ-4 without too much issue, or do I need a different carrier for my back story?


Looking at the weights of the FJ-4 vs the A-4G, I would say it should be possible.  Mind you, looking at the relative performance, the Skyhawk might still have been the better buy.

That said, don't forget these pair of RAN FAA FJ-4s":

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/FJ-4FuryGreg01.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/FJ-4FuryGreg02.jpg)

From here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3420.0).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 24, 2018, 04:22:37 AM
One more:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4895/46436244571_829f7d990e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dKpTGp)RCN-CFJ-4B-Fury (https://flic.kr/p/2dKpTGp) by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 24, 2018, 04:44:16 AM
A curiosity question, what was the reason for pointing the cannon downwards ?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on December 24, 2018, 10:48:57 AM
I just like the Fury option as local production by CAC would have been a no brainer if the decision had been made earlier, i.e. mid 50s.

Its perfectly logical as the FAA had just cut its teeth over Korea and the versatility of having a strike aircraft to supplement the FAW would have been fresh.  Then again the carrier force was cut just after this experience so reality indicates that lessons weren't learned. 

Then again lets say the political situation was different and defence was taken more seriously, Vengeance was retained, Sydney was modernised and a more competitive day fighter / strike fighter was required to supplement the Sea Venom.  Perhaps Leviathan could have been bought and completed to a similar / superior standard as Melbourne either instead of Sydney, or in addition to, permitting one carrier in reserve, one serving as a CVS and one as a light strike carrier with Sea Venom and Fury.

Either way the RAN has a requirement for two front line and one training squadron of Furies for the late 50s early 60s.  CAC steps up and develops an Avon Fury with Aden cannon and then also offers the type to the RAAF as a replacement for strike roled Sabres permitting the RAAF to reduce the size of the Mirage order (or to buy something better).  So three RAN FAA sqns, and say three RAAF sqns, maybe even composite regular reserve establishments, and maybe a Lead In Fighter Trainer establishment as well.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on December 24, 2018, 11:43:56 AM
F-86 in various derivatives always said "F-86" or "Sabre Jet".
Sure there were other fine USAF & USN jets.  Bet most non-aircraft folks of 1950s knew a Sabre Jet when they saw it even if was a Fury.

Definitive of arrival of jet fighter age in USA and likely most other countries who flew them.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2018, 02:35:05 AM
One more:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4895/46436244571_829f7d990e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dKpTGp)RCN-CFJ-4B-Fury (https://flic.kr/p/2dKpTGp) by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr

Heavy loadout but believable:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/FJ-4B_Fury_of_VX-4_in_flight%2C_armed_with_Bullpup_missiles%2C_16_April_1958.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2018, 03:00:24 AM
Perhaps the ultimate Sabre/Fury derivative:  the North American NA-295 offering to the VA (L) competition which was eventually won in 1964 by the A-7 Corsair II.  This was to be powered by a TF30 turbofan and had several other changes as you can see:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/C3907160-1148-4877-B24B-A70FCED5B2BC_zpsfpd0u4e9.jpeg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/895BD4F1-16C2-4218-AE70-F77D4E7B3F35_zpsvudpn1zd.jpeg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/40E0EF3F-BB9B-4CD0-857F-C4FCC961D109_zpsx7sugkom.jpeg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/3E263C07-7ABB-4423-BB03-E306037E21AA_zpseghygrxr.jpeg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/BF0C7DF8-0E78-402F-B827-C469CC7C3FCF_zpscpd1upm8.jpeg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/04BA6CE0-02CF-4749-A7CB-2A7BBEB7DBF3_zpsj62h4n1y.jpeg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 25, 2018, 04:57:36 AM
 :o

Was that really a proposal Greg, I can't find anything about it on the internet. The model is a Unicraft kit apparently but looking at their website, can't find it there either.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 25, 2018, 06:41:14 AM
I went over to Tommy H. Thomason's https://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/ and found nothing.

And SP had the same images posted by Greg/Tommy.

So yes, information on this proposal is scarce.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2018, 07:06:55 AM
Here is some info:  https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,143.15.html (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,143.15.html)

I will check my library for more details
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2018, 07:37:51 AM
It s mentioned in Tommy’s book:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XcluX7AiL._SY498_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Though not much detail
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 25, 2018, 07:46:25 AM
Well that was quite interesting, it turns out not to be a Unicraft kit after all.  And next time someone makes a comment about ridiculous load-outs people put on their models, I think I'll just post these pics ---    ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2018, 08:02:14 AM
There is also a mention with more information in Tony’s book:

(https://d1w7fb2mkkr3kw.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/lrg/9781/8578/9781857803310.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on December 25, 2018, 10:10:57 PM
That's been one book I have on my shopping list for a while, got the 'Fighters" one though.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on December 30, 2019, 11:39:50 PM
What if Spanish Republic remains in western block after winning SCW. Then, Spain is involved in Korean War.
(https://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/P86-SRAF.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/P86-SRAF.jpg.html)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Camthalion on April 11, 2020, 06:45:01 PM
This turned up in my facebook feed today.  THought it might be of interest on here
(https://i.imgur.com/5ZcLzvn.jpg)


Please tell me decals of this variant are available.  That has to be done.
Spotted this set while surfing ebay last night
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SHEET-OF-OLD-RAAF-MODEL-DECALS/353023061660?hash=item5231d06e9c:g:LBAAAOSw9htefLFl (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SHEET-OF-OLD-RAAF-MODEL-DECALS/353023061660?hash=item5231d06e9c:g:LBAAAOSw9htefLFl)

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2020, 01:53:49 AM
Very interesting.  What was the story behind it?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2020, 03:52:40 AM
(https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/043/dcs_2015-05-18_22-05-00-62.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2020, 04:20:31 AM
(https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/66f/Royal%20Australian%20Navy%20%28RAN%29%20VC%20724%20A94-922%20v30.09.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Camthalion on April 12, 2020, 05:02:23 PM
Very interesting.  What was the story behind it?

Can't find the link now, but there was another link attached that showed the photoshopping. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 14, 2020, 10:04:08 AM

Please tell me decals of this variant are available.  That has to be done.
Spotted this set while surfing ebay last night
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SHEET-OF-OLD-RAAF-MODEL-DECALS/353023061660?hash=item5231d06e9c:g:LBAAAOSw9htefLFl (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SHEET-OF-OLD-RAAF-MODEL-DECALS/353023061660?hash=item5231d06e9c:g:LBAAAOSw9htefLFl)
Could one of you gents in OZ purchase this one for me and send it on?  Cost of item and cost of shipping would be reimbursed.  It appears that this seller does not ship internationally and I do want that decal set; depending on the size of the roundels, I've some projects they would go well with.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 15, 2020, 03:18:18 AM
Could one of you gents in OZ purchase this one for me and send it on?  Cost of item and cost of shipping would be reimbursed.  It appears that this seller does not ship internationally and I do want that decal set; depending on the size of the roundels, I've some projects they would go well with.

Got it for you.  Will mail it to you once I have it in custody.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 15, 2020, 10:30:42 AM
Could one of you gents in OZ purchase this one for me and send it on?  Cost of item and cost of shipping would be reimbursed.  It appears that this seller does not ship internationally and I do want that decal set; depending on the size of the roundels, I've some projects they would go well with.

Got it for you.  Will mail it to you once I have it in custody.
Thank you, sir.  Please let me know what the final cost is after you mail it.  Depending on how large these roundels are, I could see a couple different projects using them. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 09, 2020, 06:25:20 AM
Posted this to the "awesome images" thread, but thought it might fit in here as well.
F-86 with an IFR probe?  :icon_surprised: That's a new one to me.

(https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/P02694.010/screen/4101323.JPG)

Saw this on another website. Looking for additional information, I came across the source (LINK! (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C354062)) of the image, along with the following caption:
Quote
An Australian fighter pilot, O221357 Pilot Officer David N Rogers, stands in front of a Sabre aircraft of 79 Squadron, RAAF at the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) base at Ubon. The 'modified' air-to-air refuelling probe, tied to the Sabre's landing gear, was an inspired joke. RAAF pilots had long aspired to an aerial refuelling capability since at least 1958 and it was not to be realised until 1990. Australia committed these aircraft to the defence of Thailand from 1962 to 1968. Thailand, also a SEATO member country, was experiencing a critical threat from military insurgency backed by communist forces in neighbouring countries.

1/1 scale whiffing!  ;D

What about the red kill marking, though?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 09, 2020, 06:31:56 AM
Source the IFR probe from your spare F-100 Super Sabre and A-4 Skyhawk spare parts? 

Where on the wing would the IFR probe be attached?  Zooming in on the image shows that it is not attached to the aircraft. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on May 09, 2020, 07:49:20 AM
I can think of three possible locations, half way between the MLG wells and the pylon or forward of the MLG bay, half way between the front spar and the spar forming the front of the MLG bay and half way between the fuselage the rib forming the outboard end of the MLG bay, or, following the Skyhawk's approach, on the leading edge just outboard of the fuselage.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on May 09, 2020, 10:36:18 PM
Why not right where they put it on the FJ-3
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on May 10, 2020, 01:00:34 AM
I think that pretty much matches one of my suggestions.  Still, 'twould be a lot easier of the basic design information were available to modify existing aircraft.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 10, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Source the IFR probe from your spare F-100 Super Sabre and A-4 Skyhawk spare parts? 

Where on the wing would the IFR probe be attached?  Zooming in on the image shows that it is not attached to the aircraft.

The story of the refuelling probe from the pilot in the picture is here (https://www.raafapublications.org.au/wings/WINGS_2020-autumn.pdf) (start page 60) - it was actuallyfrom a F-100:  "...AAR probe off an F-100 Super Sabre... We ‘borrowed’ the AAR probe and bought it down to our lines. The CO 79SQN at the time had a cynical sense of humour so I outlined a ‘plan’ to fix one of our aircraft with an AAR mod, take a photo of it and send it back to Butterworth saying we had installed a modification on the fuel system to enable us to do some AAR trials with the USAF. We tied the rear end of the probe to the port undercarriage leg with a heavy rope over the Sidewinder rail to hold the probe in the horizontal position, then I stood in front to hide it..."
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 10, 2020, 02:29:11 AM
Fury refuelling probe shown well here:

(https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2018/6/6/1070554.jpg)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/North_American_FJ-3_Fury%2C_USA_-_Navy_AN1539491.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Volkodav on May 10, 2020, 10:09:31 AM
The easiest answer to IFR in the late 50s / early 60s would have been to get CAC to build FJ-4s with Avons and ADENs  ;).
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on May 10, 2020, 05:37:20 PM
This is interesting...the CA-28 Sabre Dingo's in my Alternative ADF ORBAT would need flight refuelling, to keep aloft.....

Wasn't there a an arrangement employed by the USN for some of their early jet's which had the prob coming straight out of a drop tank?? If so, this arrangement might eliminate the need of fixing and plumbing a prob on the aircraft itself. How the internals of the prob/drop tank arrangement works, I have no idea....
I guess another question in relation to the FRP on the Sabre, would be how long was the continuous flight time of the Sabre - ie it's engine in terms of POL's??
M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Geoff on May 10, 2020, 11:48:25 PM
IIRC early F-84 planks had an AAR probe to either the tip tank or under wing one - I don't remember which
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 11, 2020, 02:03:49 AM
The early F2H Banshees was also fitted with an IFR probe that required replacement of one of the 20mm cannons with the plumbing for the probe.  Maybe something like that could be applied to the Sabre?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on May 11, 2020, 06:27:52 AM
From Tommy Thomason's blog:

The FJ-3s were also retrofitted for inflight refueling with the installation of a fixed
probe extending from the left wing.


Which means there is probably no technical reason the kit couldn't be applied to the F-86. :smiley:
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 11, 2020, 08:31:51 AM
Argghhhhh Captain!

Refueling probe sighted off the port side!
 
(http://www.theworldwars.net/weapons/pictures/air/us/photos/photo_us_fj_1.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/North_American_FJ-3_Fury%2C_USA_-_Navy_AN1539491.jpg/800px-North_American_FJ-3_Fury%2C_USA_-_Navy_AN1539491.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 23, 2020, 03:08:30 AM
Random idea:  Swedish F-83 instead of their Hunters.  In the same scheme though:

(https://i.imgur.com/wLj4HU0.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on May 23, 2020, 12:30:21 PM
So the team would be the Acro Sabres?  Works for me.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 24, 2020, 02:35:50 AM
Going back to the air-to-air refuelling of Sabres, I found this interesting snippet a little while ago in the Alan Stephens book "Going Solo : The Royal Australian Air Force 1946-1971":

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/6C0CC35D-5268-47B0-994A-9F35C89E0C0F_zps6bm8utx2.jpeg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on May 24, 2020, 07:01:59 AM
Nice find GTX!

I'm liking the sound of the idea of 'interim Canberra tanker', especially with the Canberra's being replaced with F-111 (alas ten years later than originally planned), as the Canberra's, going by other same era Canberra's, had plenty of flight time left in them.
Fuel, hose and pump arrangement in the bomb bay, transferable fuel in drop tanks under the wings....


M.A.D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 24, 2020, 07:59:04 AM
Nice find GTX!

I'm liking the sound of the idea of 'interim Canberra tanker', especially with the Canberra's being replaced with F-111 (alas ten years later than originally planned), as the Canberra's, going by other same era Canberra's, had plenty of flight time left in them.
Fuel, hose and pump arrangement in the bomb bay, transferable fuel in drop tanks under the wings....

The Airfix accessory kit that provides the tanker parts plus the reconnaissance panel for the Valiant might be quick source for your Canberra tanker parts in 1:72nd scale or if you don't mind the slight difference in size, it could work for a 1:48th scale Canberra tanker. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on May 24, 2020, 09:26:19 PM
I've been meaning to ask here if anyone has photos of Sabres with their wings removed.  I've found one photo in a book called Archives Photographic Series - Westland, which shows a front fuselage of an F-86 being used as a engine test stand. It's using all the u/c gear for the support of the fuselage, and the wings have been removed outboard the main gear bay. The problem is there's also a large tarpaulin covering the joint so you can't see details.  A google search hasn't produced anything, lots of photos with the rear fuselage removed though.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on May 25, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
If it's sitting on all of the gear then they've chopped the wings off outboard of the
landing gear.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on May 25, 2020, 02:13:16 AM
I had wondered about that Jon, because I had always thought the wing was built in one. But after seeing the photo I had second thoughts ---
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 25, 2020, 02:33:06 AM
A couple more shots of the Firestreak trials with CAC Sabres:

(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/P027775.jpg)
(https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/4348c43827728db5caead0552f807392/mev-10843491.jpg)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 25, 2020, 02:39:46 AM
And whilst on the theme of Australian (and other) Sabres, get a load of these:

(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/NAVY_NEWS_2A94_922.jpg)
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Sabre_A94_922_Navy_scheme_Photo_via_Mark_Webb.jpg)
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Image0073.jpg)
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Sabra_A94_922_Navy_scheme_Photo_Mark_Webb_a.jpg)
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Sabre_A94_922_Navy_scheme_Photo_Mark_Webb.jpg)

And look closely at the wing of the same jet later on:

(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Sabre_A94_922_Ardmore_30th_May_2016_Photo_Errol_Cavit.jpg)
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Sabre-A94-922/Sabre_A94_922_PNGDF_roundels_Ardmore_30th_May_2016_Photo_Errol_Cavit.jpg)

PNGDF CAC Sabre anyone?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2020, 03:59:03 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520B/RNZAF%2520F-86H%2520SABRE.03_zpsiojqyvmy.jpg&key=a25692466e7dfc1b0e27c96fcfa5b908ff81a2b028f21031ddf92391cc66078c)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on October 05, 2020, 06:16:25 PM
The PNGDF markings on the Avon Sabre is intriguing GTX. Do you know what the go is? 😯

MAD
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: finsrin on October 05, 2020, 07:06:07 PM
Looking over Sabre-Fury pictures.   Such a definitive jet.   An all modern one with current materials, engine, avionics, aerodynamic refinements would be cool....
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 06, 2020, 02:42:29 AM
The PNGDF markings on the Avon Sabre is intriguing GTX. Do you know what the go is? 😯

MAD


It was part of the time A94-922 served as a Surface Finishers' Training Aid - see here (http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Sabre-A94-922) for more examples.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2021, 03:49:32 AM
Cool photo:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/F027E07C-63F1-499F-88B4-6E168553CBB1.jpeg)

Click for bigger
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on April 18, 2021, 01:57:34 AM
So while I was on SPF a couple of days ago, I came across a thread with this posted in it. It's a Canadair proposal designated as a CL-76 and the engines were to be P&W JT12's.
Now this is a quite doable project, the JT12's were used on the Dassault Falcon 20 and it just happens that the Mach II kit of the Falcon has two engine options, one being the JT12 variant. The plan was to base the CL-76 on the Canadair Sabre 6 and I have a spare one of these, plus a TF-86 conversion.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on April 18, 2021, 02:41:54 AM
^^^^
I have never seen this. Thanks for posting. :smiley: ;)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 18, 2021, 02:53:36 AM
See here too:  http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg144384#msg144384 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg144384#msg144384)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: apophenia on April 18, 2021, 03:23:18 AM
Beat me to it Greg  ;D
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on April 18, 2021, 03:41:49 AM
Your comments Stephen in the thread over on SPF was what got me to look around to see what I could use to build a model of one. It turned out to be very easy as all the parts are available OOB.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: apophenia on April 18, 2021, 05:28:37 AM
Thanks Robert. Are you going to tackle it as proposed RW? Or will there be any tweaking?

I was discussing the CL-76B with M.A.D and one conclusion was that overall appearance could be improved by refining the nose. Another notion was that a production version CL-76 might look rather less 'North American'. Eg: Would Canadair stick with the TF-86 cockpit and canopy?

I wondered if Canadair mightn't switch over to CL-30 Silver Star units for a production CL-76. After all, why not stick with components that the firm already had in production? One question arising is any speed difference between the two types. Sabre maximum speed was around 600 knots (S/L), the T-33 about 100 knots slower. Not sure what the CL-76's top speed would be ... but, I'm guessing, closer to the 'T-Bird'?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 18, 2021, 12:21:26 PM
I've seen something on a comparable NAA design that used the capped inlet as a fuel tank.  I suspect they would need structural reinforcement as the fuel would impose radically different and higher loads on the structure.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on April 18, 2021, 10:10:20 PM
Thanks Robert. Are you going to tackle it as proposed RW? Or will there be any tweaking?

I was reading that the project was to be for a low altitude attack aircraft, so I might 'tweak' it a bit. Evan's comment about a fuel tank in the nose, but now there's no engine in the fuselage, would it be necessary.  I was giving the project some thought last night and wondering what I could use for the nose cap, the cross-section being a bit unique --- I'm thinking at the moment I could use a Mosquito nose, maybe with a battery of cannon just visible. 'Course there would be a bigger radar there too ----  I think I'll use the biggest F-86 wing too, leading edge extensions, slats and extended wing tips.

The break-down drawing labels all the different F-86 components that were planned, and as the TF-86 was based on the 'E' variant, I think I'll just use the Falcon TF-86 conversion I have and then get another to make a RW TF-86.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on April 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
ISTR that the NAA proposal was more for an executive (obviously a valuable one) transport.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: kitnut617 on April 19, 2021, 08:53:16 PM
Thanks Evan ---  :smiley:

I remembered I have an Air Model TF-86 conversion too, which is just the forward fuselage from the nose to the rear of the extended cockpit, might be a better option as I would have to taper the rear fuselage to a point anyway and seems a waste of a good vacuform to use the complete fuselage Falcon set.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 20, 2021, 01:46:55 AM
One could also cannibalise a Saberliner kit here.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 03, 2022, 02:34:43 AM
Interesting tidbit:  in the early '50s there was a push by CAC for licensed production of the CAC Avon Sabre in Italy.  eventually the Italians went for the Canadair CL-13 Sabre Mk.4 instead.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on January 03, 2022, 07:49:15 PM
Interesting tidbit:  int he early '50s there was a push by CAC for licensed production of the CAC Avon Sabre in Italy.  eventually the Italians went for the Canadair CL-13 Sabre Mk.4 instead.

Tell me more GTX!😯🤔
If not here, then please PM me 😉


MAD
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 04, 2022, 02:33:48 AM
There's not a lot of info but it appears that interest was in mid 1953 and was related to Italian interest in locally producing the Sabre.  They were not interested in the J47 version and where interested in the Avon engined version.  It appress that interest was shown by the Italians and an enquiry made regarding technical details but that they were told that this had to be done at the Govt-to-Govt level and then it seemed to break down. 

There was also some interest from both Canada and the UK in procuring Avon Sabres - alas the Canadians went on to produce their own, more conventional Sabre and also provided them for the RAF and others...

Likewise the Indian Air Force also expressed some interest in 1954.  The Indians apparently initially wanted to go direct to NAA but because NAA was focussed upon the F-100 they redirected the Indians to CAC.  The Indian High Commissioner to Australia even visited CAC a number of times but then in the end of 1954 it all stopped with the Indians eventually getting Hawker Hunters instead.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: jcf on January 04, 2022, 04:33:48 AM
There's not a lot of info but it appears that interest was in mid 1953 and was related to Italian interest in locally producing the Sabre.  They were not interested in the J47 version and where interested in the Avon engined version.

Seems odd as on 16 May 1953 an agreement was reached setting up Fiat license production
of the J47 engined F-86K.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 05, 2022, 12:59:17 AM
There's not a lot of info but it appears that interest was in mid 1953 and was related to Italian interest in locally producing the Sabre.  They were not interested in the J47 version and where interested in the Avon engined version.

Seems odd as on 16 May 1953 an agreement was reached setting up Fiat license production
of the J47 engined F-86K.

It was in the lead up to and then in the aftermath of that.  I suspect the Italians were looking at multiple options and possibly getting info from all around including from NAA.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 06, 2022, 02:50:18 AM
Some further interesting tidbits - all coming from here: 

(https://www.australianbuiltaircraft.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/BooksBox2.jpeg)

Further CAC Avon Sabre developments investigated:

Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 06, 2022, 10:54:39 AM
^^^^^
What is the plane illustrated in dust cover of that book?
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Old Wombat on January 06, 2022, 12:46:38 PM
CAC CA-4 / CAC CA-11 Woomera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Woomera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Woomera)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 07, 2022, 12:25:20 AM
CA-11 to be precise.  Here's a bigger image - it was painted by the author, Keith:

(https://www.australianbuiltaircraft.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CA-11-painting3.jpg)

CFBV
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 16, 2022, 02:21:32 AM
(https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/9bd/z6kduzzmqmpnxrkuy837waovc4i9hd0d/20220104084859_1.jpg)

CFBV
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on January 16, 2022, 08:34:51 PM
There's not a lot of info but it appears that interest was in mid 1953 and was related to Italian interest in locally producing the Sabre.  They were not interested in the J47 version and where interested in the Avon engined version.  It appress that interest was shown by the Italians and an enquiry made regarding technical details but that they were told that this had to be done at the Govt-to-Govt level and then it seemed to break down. 

There was also some interest from both Canada and the UK in procuring Avon Sabres - alas the Canadians went on to produce their own, more conventional Sabre and also provided them for the RAF and others...

Likewise the Indian Air Force also expressed some interest in 1954.  The Indians apparently initially wanted to go direct to NAA but because NAA was focussed upon the F-100 they redirected the Indians to CAC.  The Indian High Commissioner to Australia even visited CAC a number of times but then in the end of 1954 it all stopped with the Indians eventually getting Hawker Hunters instead.

Thank you Greg, that is intreging!🤔

MAD
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 09, 2022, 02:45:16 AM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Falcon.jpg)

More details (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/falcon-armed-f-86ds.39203/)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on April 19, 2022, 04:35:47 AM
Spanish Sabre in Vietnam.

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Sabre_spain_seaCamo.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/e1644bb4-8ab9-43b1-b966-e4a51c287fcc)
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 20, 2022, 02:36:32 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: elmayerle on October 10, 2023, 10:21:07 AM
Wanting a faster night/all-weather interceptor prior to the Javelin becoming operational, the RF works with Fiat and Canadair to produce the Sabre NF.11.  Based on the F-86K but with an aftrburning Orenda engine and with two, or perhaps four, ADEN cannons replacing the four 20mm cannons on the F-86K.
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: M.A.D on December 10, 2023, 05:56:07 AM
Nice find GTX!

I'm liking the sound of the idea of 'interim Canberra tanker', especially with the Canberra's being replaced with F-111 (alas ten years later than originally planned), as the Canberra's, going by other same era Canberra's, had plenty of flight time left in them.
Fuel, hose and pump arrangement in the bomb bay, transferable fuel in drop tanks under the wings....

The Airfix accessory kit that provides the tanker parts plus the reconnaissance panel for the Valiant might be quick source for your Canberra tanker parts in 1:72nd scale or if you don't mind the slight difference in size, it could work for a 1:48th scale Canberra tanker.

A very belated thanks Jeffry Fontaine :-[

MAD
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 10, 2023, 09:03:17 AM
Nice find GTX!

I'm liking the sound of the idea of 'interim Canberra tanker', especially with the Canberra's being replaced with F-111 (alas ten years later than originally planned), as the Canberra's, going by other same era Canberra's, had plenty of flight time left in them.
Fuel, hose and pump arrangement in the bomb bay, transferable fuel in drop tanks under the wings....

The Airfix accessory kit that provides the tanker parts plus the reconnaissance panel for the Valiant might be quick source for your Canberra tanker parts in 1:72nd scale or if you don't mind the slight difference in size, it could work for a 1:48th scale Canberra tanker.

A very belated thanks Jeffry Fontaine :-[

MAD
Good luck finding the Valiant accessory kit.  It was a rather short-lived product and I am not sure the new Valiant kit has all of the parts included. 
Title: Re: F-86 Sabre and Derivatives
Post by: ysi_maniac on December 16, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Fiat G.91 structure is inspired by F-86 but Gina's nose is IMO just perfect

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/F-86-gina.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (http://"https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/F-86-gina.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds")