Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72450 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2014, 09:26:36 AM »
What about a pair of Turbo-Union RB199s plus new cockpit/canopy plus new radar say, something like the APG68 plus updated missiles for a Lightning for the '90s and beyond?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2014, 10:28:31 AM »
What about a pair of Turbo-Union RB199s plus new cockpit/canopy plus new radar say, something like the APG68 plus updated missiles for a Lightning for the '90s and beyond?

Not saying no to any tendered solutions at this point  ;)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2014, 05:03:48 PM »
Read the Britmodeller build review and think I'll find an Airfix kit.

Had a thought for a fun Whiff, F.2A four gun nose with F.6 tank guns for a total of 6 ADEN, Mk53 wing with overwing Redtop, double pylon on outer wing for Sparrow / Skyflash (lower missile) and Sidewinder outboard side sub-pylon. Ultimate bomber destroyer, I imagine 6 ADEN would vaporise just about anything.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2014, 09:15:16 PM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2014, 10:49:25 PM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

If that's the case just go for extra Red Top on the wing stations, a graphic I saw indicates the rocket pod load out was up to two on each of the four over and under wing stations so up to 8 Red Top plus 6 ADEN for my Whiff ;D

Now with the Lightning serving into the 90s or 2000s then we have AMRAAM and ASRAAM and no need for a CW illuminator

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2014, 02:29:24 AM »
The idea with RB199s suggested above might fit in with a scenario whereby the RAF needed to keep a dedicated interceptor/fighter a bit longer.  Possibly driven by issues with the Tornado F.3?  By going with RB199s you keep commonality with the Tornado GR.3s.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 02:32:49 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2014, 02:41:50 AM »

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

The problem with using Red Tops instead of Sparrows on the F-4 is that the missile needs to see the target before launch, and it can't do that from within the Sparrow troughs. IIRC correctly, they did have a look at putting two Red Tops on the inboard wing pylons, but decided it wasn't worth the integration effort. I don't know about that though. Sparrow had plenty of "issues" and was certainly vulnerable to ECM, so your F-4 might find itself in a situation where it's thrown all four AIM-7s at a Badger full of electronics and watched them all go loopy, and is wondering what to do next. A couple of IR homing Red Tops with a seven-mile range and bomber-killing warheads might be preferable to a quartet of tiny Sidewinders at that point.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2014, 02:49:20 AM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

If that's the case just go for extra Red Top on the wing stations, a graphic I saw indicates the rocket pod load out was up to two on each of the four over and under wing stations so up to 8 Red Top plus 6 ADEN for my Whiff ;D



I'm pretty sure you could get two Red Tops on the overwing pylons, but four might be excessively draggy due to the size of the T-shaped pylon you'd need to get them fin clearance.

Red Tops on the outboard underwing ones would have me worrying about aeroelastic loads. The stores cleared for them (bombs and rocket pods) were short and clean, whereas a missile is long and has fins that generate their own air loads. You might get away with a Sidewinder there, since it's not very heavy even if it does start "nodding", but you'd still want to tunnel test it very carefully....


Quote
Now with the Lightning serving into the 90s or 2000s then we have AMRAAM and ASRAAM and no need for a CW illuminator

True, but you still need to generate target data to feed to the missile's INS before launch and datalink to it after launch, and that still needs a bunch of electronics and computing power on the fighter. Remember, it took two rounds of updates to get the Tornado F.3 full AMRAAM capability. This doesn't mean it's undoable on the Frightening, just that it's a non-trival and potentially expensive exercise. The Sea Harrier F/A.2 managed it and SHAR's arn't exactly roomy either, but then it did have a complete new cutting-edge radar with a lot of the neccessary functions built into it. Just as on the Sea Harrier (but for different reasons) the Lightning might have to give up it's guns to get AMRAAMs.

On the other hand, I could see ASRAAM going very well on the Lightning. The missile is small and clean so you could possibly carry four on fuselage Y-pylons without adding too much side area, and the missile isn't very demanding, so the neccessary electronics might fit in the missile support pack area. ASRAAM is a "long-range short-range" missile with a potential flight range of 10 miles (i.e. further than Red Top) and capable of head-on lock-ups, so even if you can't generate INS data to launch it before lock-on, it still provides a formidable capability in lock-on-before-launch mode.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 03:01:41 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 08:44:09 AM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE
Cheers,
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Offline Nexus1171

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2014, 06:15:23 AM »
I was thinking about something, why not take an XF8U-3 and putting the wings of of the Lightning on it and using the Lightning tails


ChernayaAkula

WHOAH!!!  I love the bottom image...




Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2014, 07:23:53 AM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE


 :) Top stuff, who needs the F-35 !



MOD EDIT to put the texts where they belong.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 05:52:54 PM by ChernayaAkula »

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2014, 09:04:37 AM »
I keep thinking of a Lightning for the Snoops. Spooks group build as a Recce lightning.
It would certainly be fast enough but the lack of legs sort of kills the idea off.
The overwing ferry tanks area an option.

How would a EE Lightning look with conformal tanks ?


Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2014, 08:59:43 PM »

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE



Hmm! I'm just wonder how exactly that's supposed to work  -- for one thing the engine fronts are only just behind where the intake openings are, and for second, one intake has to snake up to feed the top engine and the other side has to snake downwards to the bottom one.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2014, 09:12:30 PM »
side inlets would mean side mounted engines (the whole point of engines on top of each other is to reduce frontal area, putting intakes on the side nullifies this so you may as well put the engines there too)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2014, 09:17:26 PM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE


 :) Top stuff, who needs the F-35 !



MOD EDIT to put the texts where they belong.  ;)


I was high and my aim was off :P

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2014, 12:06:37 AM »
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/images/JPGS%5Cee%20Lightning%20F53%5CLightning%20with%20recce%20pack.jpg

Another interesting photo and I see Clave has previously done a Swedish Mk53 with SIX Redtops

Have an Airfix F2A on order and seriously thinking of the extended belly tank with internal guns and the weapons pack moved aft into the middle of the tank.  That could give me Redtops on tank mounted pylons, a pair of Sparrows semi recessed into the tank and a pair of Sidewinders in the original Redtop position leaving the wing clean and I still get six ADEN.

I think I have an old F/A-18 or two I can lift F-404 cans from too.

Actually thinking on it I may grab a Trumpy F6 for the bash rather than waste the Airfix F.2A which can be a simpler Sidewinder fuselage mount wing pylon or wing tip Redtop six gun Whiff.  May need to find / order an Airfix F.6 for the tank guns and then do that up as a missile only RAAFAR point defence interceptor.

How hard would wing tip missiles be to do on a Lightning wing?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 12:40:23 AM by Volkodav »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2014, 12:26:08 AM »
Well this is how the first sketches appeared of what ended up as the Lightning, notice the T-Tails  ---

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2014, 12:28:25 AM »
Now that is cool

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2014, 12:38:46 AM »
There was some influence from Hans Malthopp (Ta.183 fame) with the T-Tails as he was working at RAE for a while, where he was assisting in the RAE Trans-sonic Experimental Aircraft design.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2014, 03:05:44 AM »
Here's another Lightning Weapon's Load Out shot:



speaking of which, what about a more modern ground attack one with LGBs?
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2014, 03:07:08 AM »
And for another idea, what about an Indian one painted up in a similar scheme to this:

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2014, 06:11:22 AM »
Just about any Indian scheme would look good on the Lightning!  :)
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2014, 01:48:37 PM »
How hard would wing tip missiles be to do on a Lightning wing?

Not hard.  It was proposed at various times but apparently it caused unacceptable aerodynamic loads on the wings.   Similar problem with putting Sidewinders on the fuselage sides, apparently an even bigger fin than the F.6's was required..  Apparently the one place which didn't cause problems was beside the belly fuel tanks, which is where it was proposed the Genie be hung.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2014, 03:28:40 PM »
Weaver mentioned earlier that Y rails for winders in place of Firesteak / Redtop caused issues but single missiles were or should have been fine.

Offline uncle les

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2014, 04:28:49 PM »
..there's a lot of good stuff here...   it's got the cogs turning. 8)