Author Topic: DC-3F  (Read 9985 times)

Offline finsrin

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DC-3F
« on: December 14, 2017, 03:03:39 AM »
Even though have four unfinished kit-bashes (one airplane, three ships) am starting another one.
While searching stash stumbled upon this build.  Not looking to use either kit, just saw the two sitting by each other and thought hmmm might work, lets check it out.
Surprised how well sized for each other the wing roots are.  Of course some some cutting and fussing is involved, no too much.  Was suddenly compelled to do build. 
1/72 DC-3 is being fitted with 1/144 Tu-95 wings to become DC-3F.  "F" for fast.
Turns out Tu-95 plastic is easy-forgiving to work with.  Changing props from contra rotating to single props.  After fiddling with engine housings and props found that if you assemble the right kit included parts just the wrong way (according to Revell), result is perfect set up for installing single props after wing is together such that prop shaft will not recede into housing when attaching prop and prop will rotate.  Which means can paint props off of wing and install last after aircraft is painted.  So nice !

Picture of boxes is attached.  In work pictures soon.


Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 03:54:23 AM »
That's an absolutely killer concept, Bill!

Are you going to swap out the tail planes with the Bear too or are the DC-3 ones already swept enough to work?

In either case, this strikes me as a potential worthy competitor to the DH Heron:



linky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Heron

Your imagination is off the charts, my friend.

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Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 04:26:27 AM »
Thanks Brian. 
Not a "I thought of it" build.  Fate of kits being there together and working.
After looking things over  --  use Tu-95 or parts box swept horizontal stabilizers.
Move main landing gear forward some to stay a tail dragger.
Leaning to airline decals vrs military.
Corporate or private transport ?    Other ?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 05:13:26 AM by finsrin »

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 11:32:04 AM »
First configuration picture is attached.  Need to make some changes.
> Wings close but not true straight ahead. 
> Wings too long, need a clip. 
> Trying different tail wings.  T-38 main wings look possible.
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
You get the idea.  Is a start.  More to figure out !
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:34:37 AM by finsrin »

Offline Kerick

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 12:08:13 PM »
That’s looking awesome!

Offline Tophe

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 01:37:03 PM »
1/72 DC-3 is being fitted with 1/144 Tu-95 wings to become DC-3F.  "F" for fast.
"Fast and Furious"? Or/and Funny... ;) Thanks a lot! :-*

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 05:36:26 PM »
A wonderful concept!

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 06:53:25 PM »
Wow that looks great Bill!

I can see the benefit of lengthening the fuselage but if this were my build, I'd leave it as is since complications tend to slow me down and sap my modeling mojo.

I'm thinking civil or VIP transport. Personally, I'd be tempted to put Aeroflot livery on it just to mess with people.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 08:02:13 PM »
Thanks all  --  glad you like concept/idea/etc....

Have to agree:  "if this were my build, I'd leave it as is since complications tend to slow me down and sap my modeling mojo."
Messiness of cutting-patching fuselage probably destroy front finish.  Or clobber whole build.  Is decided,,, won't do that.

______
Later.... let comments sink in awhile.
Will put jetliner style sideways flipping landing gear in wing root area.  Can remain tail dragger, no problem.
Put on Aeroflot livery (need to check if have any).  Trailing wing bulges that hold Tu-95 landing gear become Vodka transport tanks.  Each tank gets filler and drain caps.  Politburo VIP transport operated by Aeroflot.
Or,,, go with US airline or MATS markings.  Trailing wing bulges are fuel tanks.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:37:24 PM by finsrin »

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2017, 04:56:06 AM »
I agree with everyone else: that first config photo looks just awesome! I want one already!
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2017, 05:25:45 AM »
> Wings too long, need a clip. 
Disagree, especially if you stretch the fuselage. The wings will look good on a stretched fuselage. I suspect the area of the swept wing is probably not much different that the regular DC-3 wing as it appears it has less average chord (especially nearer the tip) than the DC wing, even if longer.
Quote
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
May I humbly suggest adding the plug behind the wings? the wing sweep and position of the engines will move the lift centre aft, you need more mass (the plug) to balance it out. Take a look at the Bear. The wings roots are relatively close to the front of the aircraft.

Just some thoughts.

Paul

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2017, 05:58:49 AM »
Thanks all for comments.

Wings:  Agree with Paul's disagree.  Will not clip !
Fuselage:  Leaving as is.  Simpler, avoids screwing it up.  Landing gear placement will be close to original DC-3 position, remains a tail dragger. 
Remembering is a DC-3 refitted with higher speed wing inspired by Tu-95.


Offline Frank3k

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »
It's looking awesome already! The Tu-95 main gear may look good, too.

Offline jcf

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »
 :smiley: :smiley:

Puts me in mind of one of the DC-9 concepts before they settled on the aft mounted twin engines.
Model 2067 with four engines.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
First configuration picture is attached.  Need to make some changes.
> Wings close but not true straight ahead. 
> Wings too long, need a clip
> Trying different tail wings.  T-38 main wings look possible.
> Can extend fuselage front 4.5 scale feet by inserting part of another DC-3.  Become tricycle gear, not tail dragger.  Need 9ft ?
You get the idea.  Is a start.  More to figure out !

As said above, leave the wings as is.  It's got a bit of Comet 1 look to it.
I would suggest putting the plug in between the rear of the wing and the door Bill not in the front. CG is moved way back as you have it now ----

« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 06:36:23 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2017, 03:22:54 AM »
Jon - good research.  Has flashes of Kawasaki P-1.  Which don't recall seeing model kit of !
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 05:05:01 AM by finsrin »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2017, 08:20:23 AM »
If you decide to go with Aeroflot and can't source decals, let me know. I've got the titles from that 1/144 Il-62M I picked up last time I was in town that I can send. They should fit if your C-47 is similar in size to the 1/72 Monogram Spooky gunship I have.

Brian da Basher

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »
Thanks Brian,,, yet to browse decal stash.
Wing alignment adjustments are all cut/sanded/etc.  Starting final assembly now.
Browsed landing gear stash.  Decided to go with inward folding gear at near same longitudinal position a DC-3 gear.  Have gear in down position.  Not cutting into wing to make wheel wells (asks for disaster).  Will have gear doors in down position.
Tail wheel choices:   OOB, spatted, add open gear doors for retractable.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 12:31:16 PM »
If high speed is intended, I can see them going with a retractable tail gear, preferably one that retracts forward.  Done right, that could put the trunnion for this on the same heavy-duty frame as the rudder.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 12:38:29 PM »
If high speed is intended, I can see them going with a retractable tail gear, preferably one that retracts forward.  Done right, that could put the trunnion for this on the same heavy-duty frame as the rudder.
What about it being trailing design to turn like original during taxiing ?
Does P-51 retract forward or reward ?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 01:01:04 PM »
Forward, as far as I can tell from available data.  One book I have has a cut-away that shows the tail wheel mounting plus a drawing of the strut buildup.  I can scan these if needs be.

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 01:13:22 PM »
Forward, as far as I can tell from available data.  One book I have has a cut-away that shows the tail wheel mounting plus a drawing of the strut buildup.  I can scan these if needs be.
Nice of you to look it up - Thanks for support.  No need to scan. 
Looked at B-17 pictures.  Retracts reward and swivels around any direction on ground.  No gear doors.  Will go with retractable design.
Figure 2500ish hp engines.  400-450 mph seem right?
Turns out inboard engine cowl not made for wheels up assembly.  Oops forgot to check that.  Time for bit of scratch building and delay.  UGH !
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 02:00:01 PM by finsrin »

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 05:51:44 AM »
No gear doors. 
Will go with retractable design.
400-450 mph seem right?
If you're going for a 400-450 MPH design, you're gonna want to put doors on all the gear. Those sorts of speed cause massive buffeting and turbulence around open holes. Remember, drag is a function of speed squared. Drag on a given feature from 275mph to 450 goes up by 4 times. Even with 2500 hp, you won't have any to spare for a dirty design.

As an example, the Bugatti Veyron has a top speed of 250 mph on 1200 HP. The first 250HP gets it to 150 mph, the remaining 950HP is needed to get it to 250 mph.

Food for thought...

Paul

Offline finsrin

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 06:41:29 AM »
No gear doors. 
Will go with retractable design.
400-450 mph seem right?
If you're going for a 400-450 MPH design, you're gonna want to put doors on all the gear. Those sorts of speed cause massive buffeting and turbulence around open holes. Remember, drag is a function of speed squared. Drag on a given feature from 275mph to 450 goes up by 4 times. Even with 2500 hp, you won't have any to spare for a dirty design.

As an example, the Bugatti Veyron has a top speed of 250 mph on 1200 HP. The first 250HP gets it to 150 mph, the remaining 950HP is needed to get it to 250 mph.

Food for thought...

Paul
Not clear on my part.  Was referring to B-17 has no tail wheel gear doors.  DC-3F will have gear doors.  Thanks.
Given 1/72 size of engines perhaps 3000-3500 max hp is reasonable.  Dunno.  Cruise power setting good for 400-450 mph ?
Is flexibility in specs with polystyrene engineering.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: DC-3F
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2017, 03:56:56 AM »
Not clear on my part.  Was referring to B-17 has no tail wheel gear doors.  DC-3F will have gear doors.  Thanks.
Given 1/72 size of engines perhaps 3000-3500 max hp is reasonable.  Dunno.  Cruise power setting good for 400-450 mph ?
Is flexibility in specs with polystyrene engineering.
Ahhh, sorry.

Well, if you're looking at turboprops, the RR Dart comes in at about 40" diameter plus the nacelle, which is smaller than the 54" of the Cyclone, so that's good. Darts went all the way up to ~3000 hp including the residual thrust in the RDa.10/1 version, so 4 of those would put 10-12000 hp on the wings, versus the 2800 with Cyclones which should get you to 400 kts on cruise with a cleaned up DC-3 fuselage (i.e. sand off all the rivets and panel lines!  ;) maybe clean up the nose a bit as well).

Paul