Author Topic: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration  (Read 19320 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« on: September 01, 2012, 09:02:40 AM »
Why when I look at this:



Do I think crop duster...
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 09:15:20 AM »
I do have Avenger kit-bash all planned out.

Can see one pictured as crop duster.  And there are surplus SR-71s for modification into rapid response crop dusters.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:26:54 AM by finsrin »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 10:13:58 AM »
Biplane, like the F3F is to the F4F
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Geoff

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 07:03:14 PM »
Swedish navy in Sea Blue Gloss, but with turrets etc.

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 11:17:54 PM »
Rip out all the naval gear, ventral gun and reduce the radio equipment to bare minimum essentials (perhaps to the point where it could get by with a crew of two).

After that; rig the torpedo bay to take conventional bombs, put a couple of 20 mm cannons in each wing, plug in an R-2800 and slap on some SEAC roundels and send her hunting inland.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 02:24:49 AM »
Biplane, like the F3F is to the F4F

 :)
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 03:38:12 AM »
I have plans so build a 1/72 USAAF A-32A Thrush. A peer to the A-25A Shrike.

OD and Grey.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 03:42:02 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 03:57:00 AM »
Rip out all the naval gear, ventral gun and reduce the radio equipment to bare minimum essentials (perhaps to the point where it could get by with a crew of two).

After that; rig the torpedo bay to take conventional bombs, put a couple of 20 mm cannons in each wing, plug in an R-2800 and slap on some SEAC roundels and send her hunting inland.


Well the Avenger did actually carry conventional bombs in real life:



+ see here

Developing the idea further though, what about a Grumman Avenger in Armée de l'Air markings in a scenario where France didn't fall.  Maybe have the Avenger operating in a kind of Fairey Battle tupe function?
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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 03:57:25 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline jcf

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »
Most of the torpedo bombers of the period also functioned as level bombers.

The R-2800 was proposed for the TBM-3, they went for the 1,900 hp R2600-20 instead.

Two aircraft were converted to the XTBM-5 configuration, a faired ventral step, removal
of the turret and conversion to two-seat configuration with twin-.30s on flexible mount
were among the changes.

Bu No 00550 was modified into a single-seater in July 1942.

The G-56 was a proposal for a developed Avenger with Martin turret and R-2800, one aircraft was
converted to test the turret. The twin-.50s were found to have a lower effective rate of fire than the
single gun turret due to the guns having to interrupted twice as often to clear the tail.



The PZL P.46 Sum has always reminded me of fixed gear, twin-tail Avenger.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/pzl46.html

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Offline sequoiaranger

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Twin-Tailed Avenger?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 11:59:40 PM »
>The PZL P.46 Sum has always reminded me of fixed gear, twin-tail Avenger.<

Hmmmm--maybe the twin-tail arrangement on an Avenger would make the Martin twin-.50 turret feasible!
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration: reengining with V3420 and more
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 01:08:01 AM »



Offline elmayerle

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 02:04:01 AM »
Biplane, like the F3F is to the F4F
How about more like the XF4F-1 was to the F4F-2?  The original XF4F-1 concept was a biplane, they redid it as a monoplane as the F4F-2.

Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 08:01:08 PM »
Have 4 planned:

A shortened one to become a Bomber-Fighter (XBFF-1  ::) ) in a continuance of the vein started by the BF2C. F4F writ large. Problematic in plastic but I'm persisting dammit!

A General Motors XBT2M-1 single-seater with bubble canopy and R-3350 as an insurance policy for the other BTs. Ironically, I'm also planning a Fisher (General Motors subsidiary) XBTF-1 based on the XP-75 (a R-3350 will fit in the fuselage) and have the company in competition with itself.

A Grumman XF-89 (essentially F-89 bits stuck to an Avenger).

An Avenger fuselage with fore/aft turrets mated to P-61 wings/booms. A failed escort fighter that makes a killing in the attack arena. Using up spare bits. Not thought of a full backstory yet. Maybe Northrop are license-building Avenger fuselages and use one to expedite the P-61??

Usual caveat of they'll be finished in my next life!   :-\

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration: reengining with V3420 and more
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 10:53:19 PM »



Hmm!   How about this one with a slightly longer canopy and Douglas A-26 turrets top & bottom Carlos  ----

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 01:56:15 AM »
Kit, that would be the Avenger's proposed successor, the Douglas XSB2D-1

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 03:08:59 AM »
I knew I got this idea from somewhere CB,   ;D

I think the arrangement would be better on Carlos's profile though, a bit more room I think ----

Offline jcf

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 03:58:23 AM »
 The Douglas XSB2D-1 was intended to replace the SBD Dauntless and the SB2C Helldiver, the
replacement for the TBF Avenger was to be the Grumman Design 70/XTB3F. This project grew
out of a drag and weight reduction program for the TBF and eventually led to the AF-2 Guardian.

There were five preliminary configurations in the Design 70 proposal:
G70, R-2800 with dorsal turret
G70A, R-3350 with dorsal turret
G70B, R-4360 and GE remote-controlled turret
G70D, R-3350 and I-20 turbojet
G70F, R-3350 and Westinghouse 24C turbojet

The new .60 MG was originally proposed for wing armament, this was later changed to 20mm cannon.
The T17 .60 MG project was an unsuccessful program that was based on the original 15mm version of
the German MG151.
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2013, 04:22:13 AM »
The original replacement was to have been the Vought XTBU Sea Wolf.



They had to turn that over to Consolidated to be the TBY Sea Wolf and that went about as well as if they had given it to the Japanese and asked them to license build it for the USN.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2013, 04:23:56 AM »
Oooo...look at all of that glass...
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2013, 04:45:20 AM »
The pilot, radioman, bombardier, gardener, horticulturist, geneticist, dorsal gunner, ventral gunner...

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2013, 04:48:10 AM »
 ;D  Oh, that would be cool to model:  a cockpit with pilot, gunner and in-between a bunch of plants growing and being watered.  Maybe some tulips:

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2013, 05:12:35 AM »
Erm, my son could think of something else to grow ---  ;D


not that I would condone anything like that of course --       :P

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2013, 05:14:52 AM »
Oh...tomatoes  ;)
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2013, 05:59:38 AM »
Whoops!  I got my prototypes all mixed up  :-[  I thought that the SB2D, which evolved into the AD, was supposed to replace all the dive and torpedo bombers but proved unsuccessful so they went back to the drawing boards.

We all call them greenhouses, I'm surprised we haven't see one molded that way before...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 06:01:28 AM by Cliffy B »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2013, 03:44:35 PM »
The Vought aircraft was a contemporary and competitor of the TBF, not a replacement.
Grumman, Vought, Brewster, Douglas, Hall and Vultee all tendered one or more configurations
to the same USN RFP on August 24, 1939. From a total of thirteen proposals the Navy whittled
it down to three designs from Brewster, Grumman and Vought. By 3 November they had decided
to procure two prototypes from Grumman (XTBF-1)and one from Vought (XTBU-1). The contracts
were not awarded until April, 1940.

After experiencing major structural problems in testing, the XTBU-1 rear fuselage tore off in an
arrested landing test at Anacostia, Vought had to do some redesign. The production was assigned
to Consolidated because Vought did not the capacity to produce the TBU-1 because of other
production commitments, so it was turned over to Consolidated-Vultee in Allentown, Pa. as the
TBY. The first TBY-2 was not delivered until November 1944. 189 were built before the contract
was canceled. Two squadrons were preparing for deployment overseas, however the TBY-2s
were withdrawn from service and replaced by TBMs because it was felt that the aircraft still had
too many bugs to be used operationally. Some remained in use as utility and reserve aircraft.

Grumman Aircraft since 1929, Francillon, Putnam/NIP 1989

The Corsair and Other Aeroplanes Vought 1917 - 1977, Moran, HAA 1978, 2nd printing 1991
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 03:52:19 PM by jcf »
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 12:18:42 AM »
They were contemporaries like the Valiant and the Victor were, though.  The Navy realized the XTBU was the better aircraft but the XTBF would make it into service quicker.  It was decided to build both, having the Sea Wolf replace the Avenger once it got into service.  Well, the Avenger proved to be better than expected, torpedo bombing diminished in importance, and Consolidated was more incompetent than anyone could have predicted.  As a result, instead of replacing the Avenger as the Navy had intended in 1940-41, the Sea Wolf was quietly canceled and forgotten.

My sources for this are the Naval Fighters titles on the Sea Wolf and Skypirate.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2016, 03:38:16 AM »
TBM Gathering – 90 Tons of Turkeys Invade Illinois

As we promised a few months ago, here is our report on the TBM gathering organized by Brad Deckert in Peru, Illinois this past week. The event was widely acclaimed as a roaring success, and we had our own Matthew McDaniel on the ground to report on the proceedings. We are also able to share some images from the event taken by the masterful photographer Greg Morehead and provided to WarbirdsNews compliments of the world-class Warbird Digest magazine. We greatly appreciate their support, and can’t thank chief editor Greg Morehead enough for his generosity.  There’s also a great video from AirshowStuff.com as well, and we must offer our thanks to their team for providing us with live coverage of the event on our Facebook feed as well. We hope you enjoy reading….



Full article is here with a nice video at the end.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2016, 05:13:09 AM »
A different sort of Avenger:

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 01:14:01 PM »
Turbo Avenger French (Alizé) and British (Gannet) style


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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2017, 02:19:23 AM »
Interesting
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2017, 10:14:39 AM »
I like those Carlos, only thing I would comment on is where the main gear is. As both the Alize and Gannet had nose wheels, I'd flip the main gear in the wing to the other side of the main spar.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2017, 10:26:03 AM »
Wow Carlos! Great mash-ups. Lots of inspiration here.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2017, 11:48:00 PM »
Cool.  :icon_fsm:

Running the exhaust all the way back to behind the wing, however, would be highly problematic,
for space reasons, and you'd cook all the crew.

 ;D :icon_fsm:
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 04:12:38 AM »
Cooking the crew was my first reaction. The ducting is also running through the top edge of weapons bay, I think.

Offline TurboCoupeTurbo

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2017, 05:47:23 AM »
Could be useful for high-altitude work then...  :P

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 06:00:11 AM »
Cool.

Running the exhaust all the way back to behind the wing, however, would be highly problematic,
for space reasons, and you'd cook all the crew.
Agreed.  Too, that long exhaust duct would complicate starting due to back-pressure (Swearingen had to resort to lots of manipulations with the long exhausts on the Merlin III/Merlin IV, and Metro).

I would suggest exhausts above the wing just far enough aft of the engines to get a low-loss exhaust duct; that way you don't affect anything leaving the weapons bay.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2017, 08:58:51 AM »
Exhaust ducts are in same positon than in Gannet. ??? ::)

Offline jcf

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 12:26:33 PM »
Exhaust ducts are in same positon than in Gannet. ??? ::)


The Gannet was designed for that installation, the Avenger was not, the Avenger crew
areas fill the width of the fuselage, there's no where to run the exhaust ducts.

On the Gannett AEW.3 the exhaust ducts were relocated.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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whatever’s supposed to be behind the
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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2020, 04:50:26 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2020, 03:23:35 AM »
Land based Avengers:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2020, 09:25:22 AM »
Land based Avengers:


Hmm, perhaps a whiff in USAAF camouflage and markings?

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2021, 02:42:24 AM »


UK owned Grumman Avenger T.R.Mk1 JZ146 was modified as a testbed for the Frazer-Nash FN.95 twin .50 cal machine gun barbette for the Fairey Spearfish
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2021, 04:15:22 AM »
Ha Ha! I just saved that pick so I could post it here ----  ;D

That would make a good what-if, but have another under the fuselage too ---

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2021, 12:57:42 AM »
What would you use for the turret?

I'm thinking the top turret from the He177 (though probably a different scale (e.g. 1/72 turret on 1/48 fuselage) might work:

« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 12:59:29 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2021, 02:32:36 AM »
I was thinking the top & bottom turret from an A-26

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2021, 02:39:44 AM »
I was thinking the top & bottom turret from an A-26

Yep, another possibility:



Probably need to do a test fit.
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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2021, 03:19:26 AM »
B-29/50 turrets ? And something similar, turrets from a Tu-16 or Tu-95

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2021, 03:22:42 AM »
Again possibilities.  Need to do some test fits and/or dimension checks I think.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2021, 03:34:10 AM »
The turret was the Frazer-Nash FN95 remote-controlled dorsal barbette with two .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns:

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2021, 03:35:13 AM »
This Lancaster was tested with remote turrets too

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2021, 03:47:08 AM »
Turrets from a Beech Grizzly ?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2021, 01:42:33 AM »
This Lancaster was tested with remote turrets too

Indeed - that was a one-off trial from 1944 with Boulton Paul turrets/barbettes each with twin 20mm cannon:

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2021, 08:04:25 AM »
Turrets from a Beech Grizzly ?

kit': The XA-38's central station fire control system (GE Model 2CFR21B3), upper (GE Model 2CGD50URC1) and lower turrets (GE Model 2CGD50LRC1) were identical to those installed in the A-26 ... and, thus, those turrets were all variations on the B-29's 2-gun units.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2022, 02:22:41 AM »
Just some interesting photos:





CFBVs
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2023, 02:45:06 PM »
Avenger powered by Pratt & Whitney XR-4360-10 28 cylinder four-row


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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2023, 01:58:50 AM »
I would expect the lower cowling might be faired in a little more a bit like the original design.  Even noting that the XR-4360 was a bigger engine than the R2600.

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2023, 04:44:45 PM »
I am affraid I do not see your point :-[ In my design, below cowling is an ait intake.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2023, 02:25:30 AM »
I am affraid I do not see your point :-[ In my design, below cowling is an ait intake.
Carlos. 
I think that Greg was suggesting that your new cowling for the larger R-4360 may not have been ideal.  Since the original R-2600 being as large as it was in diameter there was a lot of room within the cowling that could have been retained for the R-4360 accessories and such.  The only real change would have been in the overall length of the cowling to accommodate the longer R-4360 while the area underneath the engine would have been allocated to engine air intake, oil coolers, and associated components of the engine exhaust. 

I thought I was being edgy and over the top in wanting to build an Avenger powered by an R-2800 (which is smaller in diameter than the R-2600 by the way) and swapping out the three-blade propeller with a four-blade propeller.  :smiley:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 02:27:35 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2023, 02:35:52 AM »
Wot my learned friend said...
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Offline raafif

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Re: Grumman Avenger ideas and inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2024, 05:42:34 AM »
a bigger Avenger bi-plane ?