Author Topic: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 86359 times)

Offline kitnut617

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A model I've been planning for quite a while now too Kit.  A few years ago Hannants had a sale of just 'bagged' Shackletons, GBP8.00 each (no decals or instructions).  I bought six or seven of them.  You need two just for the fuselage and I'm swiping the engines from a Constellation for it, although I've been trying to find pictures of the Nomad installation as I wouldn't ming doing it that way.

Offline kitnut617

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Proposed Mk 4 http://avroshackleton.com/mark4.html

My proposal is more based in Mk 4 than in Avro Tudor



The MR.4 Carlos, was to have Avro Vulcan main gear (which can also be found on the Short Belfast)  ---- your's would look neat if it had the 'eight' wheel truck instead of the double wheels.

Offline PR19_Kit

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.....I've been trying to find pictures of the Nomad installation as I wouldn't ming doing it that way.


Napier only flew one aircraft with the Nomad, a Lincoln according to some sources, but others say a Shackleton Mk 1. The only pic I've ever seen of the installation was in the nose of a Lincoln, see below, which I found on a CAR Forum, for goodness sake. It's not all that indicative of how it would have looked in a Shackleton though.

I'm not sure about that captioning either as the Nomad I used a contra-prop and the Nomad II used standard props.

Regards
Kit

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Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

Offline kitnut617

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Yes I found numerous pics of the FTB Kit, but apparently there is one or two of the Shackleton installation.  Someone posted a pic of it but do you think I can find it again --

EDIT: a bit later --

Found this, just had to juggle the search phrase ---  In that Shackleton website, it says that the MR.4 would have had leading edge radiators between the inner & outer nacelle (which is where I got the idea for my Nottingham [bottom pic]), so the Nomad nacelle would possible be quite stream-lined with a large air intake under it for the exhaust turbine (sort of thinking like an early P-38 in style).

EDIT: even later --

If you look carefully at the Nomad installation, you can see a portion of the leading edge radiator ---
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 02:08:33 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline PR19_Kit

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I'd not seen that pic of the Shackleton installation before Robert, well done. It looks remarkably simple for a VERY complex engine.

I'd have loved to have heard a Nomad I in flight, better still four of them. It'd have had a deep rumble like a sawn off Deltic engine, overlayed with a turbine howl as well! TU-95s eat your heart out!  :)
Regards
Kit

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Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

Offline kitnut617

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Of interest too, is the overhead engine hanger bracket --

I have a feeling the nacelle could have looked like this below but without the exhaust shrouds --


« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 02:26:14 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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No, I was wrong, according to this (see Nomad II), the cowlings were fitted very tightly around the engine and had blisters over the cylinder heads ---

http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html

Offline Daryl J.

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I'm tempted to build up a radial Lancaster in USAF SEA nighttime markings some day.
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline PR19_Kit

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No, I was wrong, according to this (see Nomad II), the cowlings were fitted very tightly around the engine and had blisters over the cylinder heads ---

http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html


VEEERY interesting!  :)

I see the FTB Nomad I Lincoln flew at Farnborough in '51, but I was there and I can't remember it. Maybe that was one of the years we went on the Saturday and they sometimes limited the displays on the public days compared to the weekdays. 4 x Merlins + 1 x Nomad would have sounded superb!
Regards
Kit

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Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

Offline kitnut617

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It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 11:49:51 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline GTX_Admin

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How about an operational version of something like these ....to give more over target speed perhaps?


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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More re the Nomad fit for the Shackleton:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Slightly larger pics of proposed Shack' variant with R3350s:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

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More re the Nomad fit for the Shackleton:




What's interesting is something I discovered while planning and researching the De Havilland DH.101 build I'm doing (albeit very slowly), DH was told they wouldn't be getting the motors they had designed the aircraft around, and this happens to coincide with the time that English Electric bought out Napier, lock, stock & barrel.  So really this Nomad is an EE design.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 04:13:27 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline PR19_Kit

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Erm, in the same fashion that an MD97 is a Boeing design perhaps? All the Nomad engineering work was done at Napier's Luton site and EE was effectively a holding company at the time.
Regards
Kit

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Offline kitnut617

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Not really Kit, EE started building aircraft in 1922, during the war and before they bought out Napier in 1942, they had built 770 Hampdens and hundreds of Halifaxes

Offline PR19_Kit

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I'm not saying they didn't, I'm saying that the Nomad was pure Napier engineering. In the same way the Deltic engine owed nothing to English Electric's input in the railway field.
Regards
Kit

--------------------------
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.

So, just a simple circular cowl with an annular intake...

Offline kitnut617

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It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.

So, just a simple circular cowl with an annular intake...

That's my take too, I'll just copy the Nottingham' nacelle shape but taper the front down so I can use a smaller diameter spinner, more like the Shackleton spinner to the Wyvern ones I used on the Nottingham. I think it would need a slight bulge under the nacelle where the rear end of the exhaust turbine lies with the exhaust exiting at the end of it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Guys, you aren't basing your assessments upon this pic are you:



Because, as clearly stated above, that is a R3350 powered variant.

With respect to the Nomad powered variant, perhaps one can derive something from looking at the lines (engine wise) of the Lincoln powered testbed:




All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Another basis for a jet boosted Lanc/Linc...

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline PR19_Kit

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Interesting Nomad Lincoln pics there.

It looks like the exhaust duct was baised to starboard on the 3rd pic down, and also that only the diesel bit was running at the time. The rear prop was driven by the diesel, the front prop by the turbine if that doesn't make any sense.

The cowling on the Lincoln would hardly be typical of the Shackleton MR4 installation though, part perhaps from the prop and the deep belly underneath, the turbine bit of the Nomad I being underneath the diesel bit.

Noteworthy that it's flying ONLY on the Nomad in the 4th pic, but then it was supposed to have the about twice the power of a Griffon I guess.
Regards
Kit

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Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

Offline GTX_Admin

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The cowling on the Lincoln would hardly be typical of the Shackleton MR4 installation though,



I agree, hence why I only said "...perhaps one can derive something from looking at the lines (engine wise) ...", specifically by looking at this photo:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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BTW, if you look closely you will see two intakes (one on either side) of the Lincoln nose.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.