Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)

[kitnut617]

This will be a resumption of a project I had started some time ago, but got put on the shelf as other projects side-tracked me.

I've had a fascination with the Avro Atlantic ever since I found out that Avro had proposed an airliner/transport/tanker version of the Vulcan bomber.  While researching it I came across a web page that was associated with the Neville Shute Society that had some information on the Atlantic.  Apparently in one of Neville Shute' books called 'In the Wet', there is a description of an airliner which matches the Atlantic to a tee, so I wrote to the society asking if they had any more information.  I got a reply from a fellow who's name was Mike Meehan, he told me the Atlantic was a pet project of his because back in the day he worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually worked on drawings that appeared in the Avro Atlantic brochure to the Air Ministry (or what ever the department was called back then). So 99% of my information I have gather on the Atlantic came from Mike.  Unfortunately, Mike has since died but before he did he told me he was then heavily involved with the Neville Shute Society.

In the original books of 'In the Wet', there appeared a sketch of the airliner in question only it's called a De Havilland Ceres in the story, below is a copy of the sketch which Mike had sent to me but it can be found on the internet.  My original story for my Atlantic was it was built in Canada and went into RCAF service instead of the 707 and so was designated the CC-137 Husky, but now the problem arose on how to link this to the book and this GB.

So I really needed to know more about the book and did a google search to find a review, and actually found quite a comprehensive one.  To my amazement, I found there's a Canadian (and Australian) connection in the book because the story unwinds around a character who was a test pilot flying advanced airliners produced by these two countries.  So I have an 'in' so to speak.  I have since bought a copy of the book and now reading it more thoroughly so I can work on my backstory.

[kitnut617]

Here's a photo I took today of where I am with my Atlantic, it has been like that since my last post I made here in another thread.  I won't bother re-hashing how I got to this point in this thread, so here's the link to the original thread.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=794.msg8216#msg8216

As the build continues here, I'll post some other previous 'in-progress' pics

[kitnut617]

This is a pic of some of the parts assembled in a jig so I can figure out the wing root connection.

[kitnut617]

And this is a 3-View I got from Mike (top pic), he told me this appeared in the last brochure sent to the Ministry. He said that some books have erroneously stated an earlier configuration was the last (this had engines set mid wing) but Mike said this was in-correct and that the large scale model (1/24 I think) which is on display in the Woodford Museum was built to the actual last proposal.

[Weaver]

Excellent - watching this with interest. :)

I know all the Atlantic models show the original pure delta wing of the early Vulcan, but isn't it likely that production aircraft would have ended up with the curved leading-edge phase II wing similar to the Vulcan B.1/B.2s as well? After all, it was introduced to deal with high-speed, high altitude buffet problems which would very probably have affected the Atlantic too.

[kitnut617]

Yes Harold, that was one of the things I discussed with Mike Meehan, he said in all probability an in-service Atlantic would have had at least the kinked leading edge of the Vulcan B.1a.  So that is what I have started to do with one wing (not glued in yet though) using a Flightpath conversion set.  He also said it would more than likely got a fin with more area.

Sort of like this below

[kitnut617]

In this pic you can see what's involved with changing the leading edge, the shaded area on the starboard wing shows what has to be cut out.

The wing span of the Vulcan B.1/B.1a was less than the B.2, but scaling the 3-View of the Atlantic, the wing span is the same as the B.2.  I've put this down to the difference in fuselage diameters, 9'-3" for the Vulcan, 12'-6" for the Atlantic.  I've left the wing tips pointed at the moment, but once the wings are attached to the new fuselage, I'll trim them down to what it's supposed to be.

[kitnut617]

'In the Wet' was published in 1953, but the story is set in the then future -- 1983.  This works out quite well because in my original backstory I was working on, the RCAF Atlantic was in service between 1968 and 2002.  The trick now is to work it in with the story in the book.

[Weaver]

Ah, I see what you mean about the wing. I didn't even know there was a B.1 conversion....

[kitnut617]

I'm not sure there is a B.1 conversion, the slightly kinked leading edge conversion is to do a B.1a. I seem to remember reading that all the B.1's went through an update program and all had this revised wing leading edge installed.  The wing tip end of the resin leading edge is actually where the wing tip of the B.1a is, but it does have a wing tip cap for it (it's white metal in the kit conversion). The instructions that come with the conversion says you have to sand down the mating surfaces of the top & bottom wing halves where the engine intakes are to make the air intakes smaller in depth, something the B.1's had because of the lesser engine power. I'm leaving the intakes as they are on this build, because I'm saying it had more powerful engines.

[GTX_Admin]

Watching this one closely.

BTW, Neville Shute's aircraft descriptions etc are not surprising given he had a quite distinguished career in the aeronautical industry.

[kitnut617]

Thanks Greg,

I had thought I had more of the previous build progress on this forum, but it seems I haven't.

But you can see a good bit of it here:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,27077.0/highlight,avro+atlantic.html

Or here:

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=26536&hilit=Avro+Atlantic

But a brief run-down on what I'm using here.

Started with the old 1/72 Airfix Vulcan for most of the parts except the fuselage. I then needed a nice round fuselage section and found the Monogram 1/72 B-36 works out very well. For the forward end I used a Combat Models 1/72 737-100 fuselage (which is modified so the profiles are more streamlined and round) but for the rear end I had to scratch-build the whole thing. I used balsa wood building techniques to do this and it's not quite finished yet, still got to glue down a lot of the 'planks' that form the curved sides to the tail tip.

I've decided to keep the B-36 radome under the fuselage, I'll explain that away later ---- 

[Weaver]

As I understand it, all the B.1s delivered to the RAF had the kinked wing from the start: the only ones with straight wings were a few very early ones retained for testing. The distinction between a B.1 and a B.1a isn't the wing, it's that the latter is a B.1 refitted with as much B.2 equipment (ECM, refuelling probe etc..) as was considered cost-effective.

My obsession with aircraft very probably has something to so with the framed photograph of one of the straight wing prototypes that hung on my bedroom wall from a very early age. Probably still got it somewhere....

[kitnut617]

Hmm! well that would make more sense Harold ---

[kitnut617]

Got to the chapter where a description of the Ceres was described, just said it was a shiny winged delta wing with buried engines (air intakes in the leading edge) and a long pointy fuselage which was painted white on top ---- if you didn't know what an Atlantic was, not much there to go by really.

BTW, this book 'In the Wet'  ----------  weird, very weird ---   

Found out what the Canadian link is, apparently the Canadian and Australian Governments bought and took charge of one Ceres each and operated them in 'The Queen's Flight' as the UK Government deemed just about everything as a 'waste of public money'.

The book was published in 1953 which was a year before I was born, I'm wondering what events were going on about then for Neville Shute to write such a book.  I wonder what people thought of it because some of his ideas are really, really weird ----

[kitnut617]

OK, finished the book, on to reviving the build --

One of the things that led to the project being shelved the first time was I wanted to do some castings of various things, one being the cockpit. But I hadn't done very much casting at that time and I wasn't sure how to go about it.  But I've done quite a few castings of objects since then so I'm going to give it another go.

I had found that a Welsh Models 737 cockpit would fit into the Combat Models 737 but I didn't want to buy another Welsh Models kit to do it, I had contacted Denzil at Welsh Models to see if he would sell me only the bits  I was after but he told me he wouldn't break up a kit because he would then have a bunch of parts lying around. He did say if he would sell me 'all' the resin parts, or all of the white metal parts, but as the kit only has a vacuformed fuselage I would be buying practically the whole kit anyway.

This is what I'll try to make a mould and casting of --

[kitnut617]

I will have to work on this before I go much further with the fuselage. I had left the starboard side off for the moment while I got the courage to try a more elaborate casting.

[Buzzbomb]

Pretty exciting to see this come together. I really is an interesting design.

[Old Wombat]

Good luck with the casting! :)

[kitnut617]

I had to finish gluing all the 'planks' at the rear end of the fuselage, top pic shows them only attached at one end and then the next pic shows them all glued.  Onto some PSR action ---

I think if I was to do this again, I'd put in twice as many formers. That's so it would hold the shape of the planks better. Bottom pic shows how I had positioned the formers onto a keel which runs top to bottom and side to side. These had been cut to the profile shape I'm hoping comes out successful. You'll notice I've used the Vulcan's tail radome, I'll explain that later ---

[kitnut617]

Top pic here shows the 3-View drawing I'm using, I got this from Mike Meehan.  I had scaled the drawing to get the fuselage length (which is about the same as an 707).  Working out the tapering rear fuselage was a lot of fun, doing development work like that is what I do for my work and I really enjoy it. 

What was interesting about this fuselage end was where the tapering starts, in the top view the tapering starts at the first big former you see in the pic which is closest to the end of the grey fuselage bits.  But in the side view, only the top profile curve starts at the same place, the bottom profile curve however starts where the grey fuselage ends. 

I had put this down to so there was rotation clearance when taking off or landing, but later I discovered it was nothing of the sorts.  This is because the bottom of the engine tail-pipe fairing hang much further down than the bottom of the fuselage, the tail-pipes would be the first thing to hit the ground if the aircraft was over-rotated. The reason for the earlier start of the bottom curve, is because it happens to match the bottom chord profile of the wing  --- more on this later too.

[kitnut617]

Got a question for our Aussie friends,  when was Hawker-De Havilland created?

EDIT: And now I've discovered something really interesting  -- and pertinent to this GB project.  In the book "In the Wet", I couldn't figure out where (or why) De Havilland came into something which is quite obviously an Avro product.  It seems that not only was Hawker-De Havilland company created, but Avro Canada and De Havilland Canada were also merged --- by their parent company -- Hawker Siddeley.  The book is a story about Australia and Canada owning and operating a DH Ceres on the Queen's Flight thereby circumventing the Royals having to go to the UK Government whenever they wanted to go somewhere (you have to read the book to find out why) as the two Commonwealth countries were only too willing to have the Royals visiting there countries on a regular basis, plus of course visiting any of the Commonwealth countries that happen to be on the flight direction the Ceres were going in.

It seems that Avro Canada and De Havilland Canada were merged in 1962, And I just happen to have my Atlantic going operational with the RCAF in 1968, and I've got my decals already made up for it a while ago.  The scheme I'm going with is it's retirement scheme.

[kitnut617]

Now that I have the rear fuselage buttoned up, I've turned my attention to the forward end.  First I had to cut what I needed for the starboard side out of the backing sheet (top pic), I then spent the afternoon fitting the starboard side to the model.  I took my time with this as I only have one shot at it. Bottom two pics show how it came out.  It's not glued up yet because now I have to get on with the cockpit interior.

[kitnut617]

Here's a puzzler, could either of these designs be construed as a Delta, because the description of the aircraft in the book 'In the Wet' could be describing one of these, especially the 1947 design.  I know that a picture (see post #1) appears in an issue of the book, but I'm just wondering now.  While doing some research, I've discovered that Shute's full name was Neville Shute Norway, Neville Shute was his pen name and he did this so it wouldn't interfere with his professional career, which was an aeronautical engineer.  He actually started his career at de Havilland.

And these designs would have been known at the time of his book 'In the Wet' whereas the Atlantic was only made public in 1953.

[kitnut617]

Got a question for our Aussie friends,  when was Hawker-De Havilland created?

Found out, 1960

[Weaver]

Here's a puzzler, could either of these designs be construed as a Delta, because the description of the aircraft in the book 'In the Wet' could be describing one of these, especially the 1947 design.  I know that a picture (see post #1) appears in an issue of the book, but I'm just wondering now.  While doing some research, I've discovered that Shute's full name was Neville Shute Norway, Neville Shute was his pen name and he did this so it wouldn't interfere with his professional career, which was an aeronautical engineer.  He actually started his career at de Havilland.

And these designs would have been known at the time of his book 'In the Wet' whereas the Atlantic was only made public in 1953.

I wouldn't have said they were deltas: "swept tapered tailless" and "swept tapered" would seem appropriate. If the first one is a delta, then so is an Me-163....

[kitnut617]

Well! I have a slight problem --- now that I have the starboard forward half of the fuselage fitted, I've noticed that the fuselage looks like a banana    There a definite bend right at the 737/B-36 fuselage joint, I'll have to figure out how to fix this before I carry on --  I had built the joint a certain way and had to include the nose wheel well as I did it, this now presents a problem on how to fix it because it's not just a 're-cut' the joint sort of fix because half of the wheel well is glued to the B-36 side of the joint plus I included a keel plate top to bottom.  And I don't want to take the whole thing apart either ----  think on this I will --

[kitnut617]

I had also made a keel forward of the wheel well, this was so I could re-profile the bottom profile so it didn't have the ""Boeing"" look to it.

Bottom pic shows the keel I had glued to a bulkhead which was then glued to the wheel well, this was then all glued into the fuselage before I fitted and glued the port forward 737 fuselage side to it.

I had thought I got everything lined up straight but now it appears that's not the case.

[kitnut617]

And this is the problem, in the bottom pic the kink is really plain to see without the rule next to it --- gudamnit 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The Delta House recommends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepFO4psgKE

[kitnut617]

The Delta House recommends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepFO4psgKE

That would work better than having to think about it Jeff   

[kitnut617]

As ever -- I got thinking again about what Shute had described in his book, one thing that struck me was there's no mention about the undercarriage.  I would've thought considering Shute' aeronautical engineering experience, that the multitude of wheels the Atlantic was envisioned to have (just like a Vulcan, Victor, Belfast) there would have been some reference to them.

So I'm thinking of using Nimrod wheels on a 4-wheel truck instead of the eight Vulcan wheels, at least this has a De Havilland connection -- although it seems a waste of the resin Vulcan wheel set I just ordered which is on it's way now -----   

[Weaver]

As I understand it, the Atlantic's undercarriage layout is a bit of a mystery, with no definitive drawing having survived. The big display model at Woodford has no indication of it: I looked specifically.

[kitnut617]

Well in this 3-View sketch which Mike Meehan told me was of a very early design and not the last like some publications have said, it shows 4-wheel trucks

[kitnut617]

After more delving into how and why --- found this over on the 'Secret Projects Forum'.  It seems the concept of the Atlantic was well advanced in 1953 so Shute could have known about this when he wrote his book.  Solves a lot of things for me ---

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,482.0.html

[kitnut617]

And this is the problem, in the bottom pic the kink is really plain to see without the rule next to it --- gudamnit 

Fixed it easier than I thought it would go, I cut a slot with a razor saw from the back of the wheel well all the way around the offending side of the fuselage but not totally through at the top. Carefully prizing the slot open with a small screwdriver I slipped a piece of styrene strip into the slot which has held the gap apart so the two sides are now running quite parallel.  It didn't have to go very far to do it either thank goodness.

[Buzzbomb]

First class work mating the Vacform bits together. This is looking really nice.

[kitnut617]

Thanks buzzbomb

[kitnut617]

When I first started this project, I had decided as it was to be an RCAF operated one and built in Canada, the story was to have it powered by Orenda engines, specifically an Iroquois without the after-burner.  I had started to make some brass tailpipes for it which would have looked like this in the top pic, but I've decided to abandon this idea for this build.  What I'm going to use on this build is a set of Freightdog Olympus 202 tailpipes (bottom pics)

[kitnut617]

But I haven't abandoned the brass tailpipes completely.  I've got a couple of other Vulcan winged projects on the backburner, one which will be a much larger Atlantic, which, thanks to Evan, I'll be calling an Avro Pacific.  This will entail using a Boeing 767 fuselage but with some slight modifications to the profile.  The power for this (and my other project) will be a pair of CFM-56's in a new inner wing section which will have to be scratch built, but will have the full Vulcan B.2 outer wings.

So I had to make advanced plans for this because I need to draw it out first, which meant taking a bunch of measurements from the inner wing I've already cut off for this fuselage.  The top pic here shows a sketch of the two chord faces which have been equally spaced out with the same number of spaces, these two faces are 1 3/8" (35mm) apart for the Olympus 202's in this project but will have to be spaced wider apart for the new engines.  Next pic down shows the difference between the Olympus and CFM-56 faces.  What I have to do is draw the inner wing section as it is at the moment, I will connect the corresponding points on each chord with a line, then I'll keep the outer wing connecting chord as it is, but then extrude the connecting lines to a new point which will be wide enough to except two CFM-56's side by side.  In the end it will look a bit like how on the HP Victor, the engine section has a bulged under-wing, only there will be a bulge on both top and bottom of the wing. Or maybe similar to the Victor Mk.3.

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx168/jasper999/P1100491.jpg

Bottom pic shows the Vulcan inner wing in position on the 767 fuselage.  Out of interest, the wing root chord depth of the Vulcan wing is very close to the 767 wing root chord

[kitnut617]

Out of interest, this is the difference between the Atlantic and Pacific fuselages

[kitnut617]

Forgot to mention, the sketch of the chords will be used on this project so I can place the spars I have to make. I need quite a few so that when I skin the wing root to match the fuselage, it keeps it's chord shape.  I'll transfer all the vertical lines to the inner wing root side.

I've started to measure this all out and what I had done was to make a couple of jigs that I can slide over the fuselage (top pic). I'll give them a spot of glue to keep them in exactly the same place and this way I can remove and replace the inner wing as I keep checking it for fit. Next two pics show the inner wing in place on the jig.

Bottom pic shows how I'm going to make the multitude of spars, I cut some 2" diameter holes in a sheet of styrene card which has the center of the fuselage marked on it, this will be the datum line for measuring down to the various positions on the wing chord.  I need to do it this way because although the top of the chord is quite close to the fuselage side, the bottom of the chord has a huge gap.  And I'm not going to fill it with putty -- 

[kitnut617]

In this pic you can see I've left a gap between the wing root chord and the fuselage, that's so I can slide my rule in between so I can measure for the side centerline down to the bottom of the chord. The idea here is when I measure back to the fuselage I'll deduct 2 or 3 mm each time so it will close up once the wing is glued on. 

Where you can see the front jig, the bottom of the wing chord profile practically matches the bottom profile of the fuselage, only in front of the jig does the chord profile ride up the side of the fuselage so will be some tricky cutting and trimming to do. In between the two jigs, the bottom of the wing and bottom of the fuselage are very close to being the same, and from the point where I started the scratch-built rear fuselage, the bottom fuselage profile here is starting to curve up and happens to match the up-curving profile of the wing chord

[GTX_Admin]

Coming along nicely.

[kitnut617]

Not a lot done over the last couple of weeks I'm afraid ---     

but I've been pondering which main wheels to use.  I could go with the Vulcan set-up, but then in one of the three views I've posted it shows Avro were considering a four wheel truck with larger wheels.

So now I've got to decide which way I'm going to proceed.  In the pic below, it shows a pair of Vulcan wheels next to the landing gear leg, the next pair to it are Nimrod main wheels and then the largest ones are 737 main wheels. Both of the larger wheels will mean some modification to the gear leg so that the axle centers are spaced further apart and also I will have to modify the u/c bay, but which set to use  -------    it will either be the eight Vulcan wheels or four each of the other ones

[taiidantomcat]

Still dropping my jaw. Don't worry about the last few weeks being slow, they are slow for everyone around this time  :)

[kitnut617]

Thanks tc --

So watching a Vulcan u/c gear retraction test sequence on YouTube, I see that going with the bigger wheels means a lot more thinking is required. In the sequence, it shows that the rear set of wheels end up at the front end of the wheel bay when retracted. Because of the orientation of the u/c leg which attaches directly to the front axle and the rear axle trails behind, just making the trailing axle beam longer to except the bigger wheels won't work. That's because the front end wall of the wheel bay is also the main spar of the wing so I can't increase the wheel bay in that direction.  If I go with either 4-wheel truck, I'll have to come up with another retraction sequence, probably something similar to how a Britannia u/c gear works. This means that the rear axle track has to be wider than the front axle because the rear wheels when retracted will be to the rear of the wheel bay and straddle the u/c leg to either side.  I think there's enough width to the wheel bay for this to happen but I'll have to make the wheel bay just one big rectangular hole instead of how the Vulcan set-up is.

[kitnut617]

I think I've figured out what to do with the u/c, and it's not much.  After doing some match-up of parts, I decided to go with the Nimrod wheels, at least there's a De Havilland connection with them (De Havilland Comet/Nimrod).

After working out some parts which would end up a bit complicated, the solution turned out very simple.  When the aircraft gets into the air, the wheel truck extends to it's fullest, that's both the oleo and the large hydraulic cylinder which dampens the rear axle, then the oleo is retracted to it's most shortest point while the large cylinder stays at it's most extended. This sort of makes the truck stand vertical so the rear axle is at the bottom and the front axle is at the top. The u/c leg is then rotated forward which makes what was the bottom of the wheel (where it touches the ground), into the top of the wheel up against the underside of the wheel bay top.

All I have to do is move the front axle forward of the oleo about 3mm and everything works the same way, except once the u/c is retracted, the front axle & wheels sit higher in the wheel bay.  But I do have to move the u/c leg hinge point back a bit to maintain the load carrying center of the truck.  Looking at a Cut-Away drawing, this doesn't pose a problem to move the rear of the wheel bay back a bit in real life and this will create a bit of extra distance between the front of the wheel bay and the edge of the tire which is needed because of the different wheel diameters

So that's another problem out of the way ---

Here's a link to the retraction sequence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ypGN0iREE

[kitnut617]

A bit of progress ---

Top pic here shows what I've come up with as regarding the modified wheel bays, I moved the rear of the bay backwards 5mm.
Next pics show where I've cut out the kit tail-pipes and glued in the Freightdog Olympus 202 tail-pipes, only in this project they'll be Orenda Iroquois tail-pipes (but without after-burners).

The pics graphically show how much of a difference in size the Vulcan B.1 wing is to the B.2 wing

[kitnut617]

In the top pic here it shows some parts I want to use in my build only I didn't want to rob the kits they came from of them, so I made some copies. The cockpit tub and seats come from a Welsh Models 1/72 scale 737, and the engine fronts come from an Aircraft in Miniature Vickers Valiant.
Next pic is of the mould I made and the last pic is of the result. The cockpit part I was worried I'd have problems with but it turned out quite well, but a couple of the fan fronts didn't come out to well so I'll have to do them again.

[kitnut617]

And now I've got both wings up to the same level of modification.  Had to remember how I did the first one because I couldn't find the Flightpath instruction sheet, but then looking for something else the instruction sheet turned up, so no problems encountered.

[Weaver]

Great stuff - this is an awesome project!

[kitnut617]

Thanks Harold, knowing that you worked at the factory, I'm glad you like what I'm coming up with.

As to the Vulcan B.1-B.2 wing difference, the B.1 wing tip is where the wing tip end of the new resin leading edge part is, so the end has a fairly long chord to it. As you can see in the 3-View, this wing tip chord is quite short.  Scaling the 3-View, it seems that the wing span is close to what a B.2 wing span is.  The difference between the two wing spans is 11 feet, but the difference between the two fuselage diameters is only 3'-3". So after I make up my wing connection and the wings are glued on, I'll trim the wing tips to the same span as the B.2. I think it will end up pretty close to what the 3-View shows.

I've also realized I don't have to spend a lot of time measuring the actual model to make my fuselage/wing connection parts, I can do it all in my AutoCAD program which will make things much easier.

[Buzzbomb]

This is bliss watching this come together.

[kitnut617]

Thanks mate!

[apophenia]

Amazing work!  :)  And I love the switch to burnerless Iroquois too 

[kitnut617]

Thank AP, the Iroquois dry rating was 19,000 lbt, only a little short of an Olympus 301 (20,000 lbt). And it was a smaller diameter engine so there was room for development. With a little bit of tweaking, Orenda could quite easily match the Olympus for power I think.

[apophenia]

In Fall of an Arrow, Murray Peden says that the PS-13 was run at 20,000 lb dry thrust in April 1957. But by the time it was test-flown on the B-47, the Iroquois was only running at 16,000 lbs (presumably to spare the trials engine).  Sounds like Orenda had already matched the Olympus ... making the new engine reliable is another story, of course 

[kitnut617]

Sorry guys, I'm not getting very much done at the moment, the new job I started isn't quite what I was told it would be. I was told it would be 4 days on, 4 days off, but I've only had one day off in two weeks working 12 hr shifts (plus 3 hrs traveling) and tomorrow I start night shift for a week.

I have managed to transfer the wing chord profiles into my computer and started to work out the parts I need for the multiple spars for the wing/fuselage connection.  I've discovered something else though, what I have found by looking at cutaway drawings of the Vulcan, that aircraft's main and rear fuselage is in line with the wing chord center with the nose section drooping down 4.5 degrees. This doesn't happen with the Atlantic -- so now I have to decide which is the easiest way to create my new connecting spars.  Do I keep them vertical to the fuselage, or vertical to the chord centerline.  This is because the Vulcan wing has an incidence of 4.5 degrees although the most I can get with the Atlantic is 3.5 degrees.  This is mainly to do with where the RW spars would be in the wing in relation to where the cabin floor is in the Atlantic.

In this image below, you can see how the inner most chord profile (in purple) interacts with the Atlantic fuselage (in red). You can see one of the little stars right on the centerline of the fuselage, this happens to be about where the engine front is located which also has a short spar in a Vulcan wing, the main front Vulcan wing spar is further forward but in this project it doesn't have to be the front main spar ('cause there's no bomb bay in the Atlantic)

The two blue lines are where the fuselage starts to taper to the rear, #1 line is where the top profile line starts (also where the side profile lines start in the top view, also where the trailing edge of the wing is located), and #2 line is where the bottom profile line starts.  I had thought this was to have more clearance when the aircraft rotates for take-off, but then realized it's nothing of the sort.  This is because the tailpipe fairings hang way down below the bottom of the wing and would actually be the first thing that strikes the ground if the aircraft was over rotated.  What I did find is that this bottom profile almost matches the rear third of the bottom chord profile of the wing,

So you can see the dilemma I have, do I make the new spars vertical to the fuselage (just need a round hole in some styrene and then work out the tapering of the wing from one mating surface to the other, or do I rotate these spars to make the tapering easier and then have to work out what the elliptical shape would be for the fuselage connection.

I should mention that the centerline of the chord I'm using, is actually the Vulcan kit's top and bottom wing half joint line and may not be the actual chord centerline, I mention this because when transferring the chord profiles into the computer, I found the bottom half of the chord is deeper than the top half, which would make the airfoil upside-down. Unless delta wings are like that ---

[kitnut617]

I'm really disappointed I couldn't get this project done        , I really enjoyed doing it though and fully intend on finishing it.

[Buzzbomb]

This is pretty tough.
Though I am sure in full time we shall see this beasty.
And for that time, I am really waiting as I have loved this build

[kitnut617]

Could a Moderator move my thread into the Physical Models - Aerospace section please. I do intend on finishing this ----

[kitnut617]

Thanks guys

[elmayerle]

Just caught this thread and I'm definitely watching with interesting.  I quite enjoyed In The Wet and I can't help but wonder if bits of it were inspired by English politics of the period (Labour riding quite high).  The voting scheme proposed therein is fascinating and, while I'm not at all sure if it would work, I'd love to see it explored further as it seems to have potential.

[kitnut617]

I've read Evan, that Nevill Shute did not like socialism at all, and a number of his books derides it.  So far this has been the only book of his that I have read completely, I quite enjoyed it but it does pose a number of interesting lines of query, one being -- just how did he get to know about the Atlantic when it had only just been drawn up and proposed to the UK Government.  Was it common knowledge amongst the aviation industry at the time  his book was published at the same time the proposal was put in --- 

[elmayerle]

Given that Neville Shute Norway had been active in the UK aviation industry for years (he, after all, was one of the founders of Airspeed), he could well have been aware of the general concept of the Avro Atlantic (the art on the cover of the paperback edition I have certain resembles it, too).  Between some of his other novels and his autobiography, I think it safe to say he had a rather poor opinion of socialism (he is one of my favorite British novelists, so I've read most of his works).  His last novel, On the Beach is something of a downer, but the one written immediately before it, Trustee From the Tool Room erases that quite nicely.

[kitnut617]

Well, drawing out the new wing to fuselage connection is proving a bit more interesting than I thought it would be. I've done it twice now but I still think I've done it wrong.  I decided to put the spars vertical to the fuselage, this means I have to work out what the correct shape is in the wing.    Think on it I will ----

[kitnut617]

Been a while since I've done anything on this, but did manage to get something worked out with the 4-wheel truck for the main gear. I went with using some wheels from the Airfix Nimrod as the Aircraft in Miniature ones I had planned on using got a bit f&*$ed up.

Anyway some pics of what I've done.  I decided that the rear axle had to stay where it is, and then move the front axle forward. This is because in the wing's spar is right at the front of the wheel bay so we can't move in that direction. However, the Flight Global cutaway drawings show that the sub-spar the u/c leg hinge is attached to can move backwards.

So what with moving the u/c leg hinge backwards, but then moving the front axle forwards, it sort of makes the load cg of the truck about in the same place as the 8-wheel truck's would be

[kitnut617]

A different view of the wheel bay modifications and how the truck sits in it, or I should say retract into it.

Because the oleo is not retracted to it's shortest length in the bottom pic (see the retraction video I posted further up to see the explanation for this in post #48), it doesn't show the u/c leg hinge lining up where it should, and of course the cylinder on the rear axle should be lying on top of the oleo.

[Brian da Basher]

Your incredibly well-thought out engineering approach never ceases to bowl me over, Robert!

I don't think I've ever seen more convincing wheel well work!

Sure looks like your'e well on the path towards making a real prize-winner!

Brian da Basher

[kitnut617]

Thanks BdB ---

[The Big Gimper]

Found this on Facebook.

Avro Atlantic model on display at Avro Heritage Museum.

[kitnut617]

Also been posted on Secret Projects Forum Carl, nice find though.

[finsrin]

Is this the British "Sonic Cruiser" ?

[GTX_Admin]

Is this the British "Sonic Cruiser" ?

Nah, the self loading cargo version of the Avro Vulcan:

[kitnut617]

I've got another view of it in post #4 in this thread.