Author Topic: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations  (Read 31815 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« on: July 07, 2013, 02:11:31 PM »
An Australian war emergency upgrade replacing the 2 pounder and 3" guns with 25 pounder used in the Sentinel ACII/III.  I believe this gun was developed from the Australian 25 pounder light weight mountain gun so may even have been able to be retrofitted to the original turret.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 08:10:58 PM »
No, the gun in AC series was a standard 25 Pounder.   The Ordnance, QF, 25-pr short (Aust) Mk.1 only differed in carriage design and barrel length.   This resulted in reduced range and accuracy.  Even so, I'd expect the recoil and run out to exceed the dimensions of the Matilda Mk.II's turret ring's capabilities.   Even attempting to work the weapon in that cramped two man turret would have been nearly impossible.    At the minimum, a new turret would be required and more than likely a much larger turret ring.   Neither was impossible in the Matilda, as the British proved but the question would be asked, to what point?  The 2 Pounder and 3 inch How. were quite adequate weapons for most of the threats that tanks faced in New Guinea.   

The Australian Army developed an effective HE round (base fused, rather than point fused as was the British version) for the 2 Pounder which proved quite useful against Japanese coconut log bunkers of the type encountered in New Guinea and Borneo.  The 3 inch was quite adequate at throwing HE and Smoke rounds.  That doesn't mean a bigger gun wouldn't have been appreciated but with bigger guns come the attendant problems of a bigger vehicle and weight, both factors which made the Mathilda so useful for so long, to us compared to the Middle-East and Europe.   

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 08:25:42 PM »
Interesting, I wasn't aware we had a HE round for the 2pdr, that would have made it much more useful.
Makes you wonder if the same couldn't have been done for the 6pdr instead of replacing it with the rebored 75mm version in the British cruiser and infantry tanks used in Europe.

My thinking was for a re-engineering of matildas using components designed for the Sentinel.  If it couldn't be done it couldn't be done but a re engining and upgunning with the 25pdr would have been nice.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 09:55:24 PM »
I've always found the standard "story" that anything under 75mm couldn't fire a "useful" HE round to be curious. "Useful" is relative: if a sub-75mm HE round is no use, then why the current enthusiasm for 40mm grenade launchers?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »
There were two HE round developed for the 2 Pdr.   The British one was a nose fused round, with a super-quick activating fuse which meant it had little penetration.   The Australian one, developed independently, was a base fused round, with a delay fuse.

The former was designed for the destruction of materiale' and personnel.  It was also as rare as hen's teeth because of the internecine arguing between the Royal Artillery and the Royal Armoured Corps.  The RA maintained that as they were the gunners, only they should be firing guns that fired HE.  As the 2 Pdrs were primarily mounted in tanks, the RAC maintained they should fire the HE rounds.   The result was a well known stalemate and the fighting men - by this time in the Desert - couldn't effectively counter the German AT guns because they often outran their artillery support.

In New Guinea, OTOH, the Australians found they had an excellent tank - heavily armoured, small and reliable for use in the Jungle, the Matilda but had no HE rounds for it's gun.  So they set out to develop one which was optimised for the penetration of Japanese bunkers which were constructed primarily of sand and Coconut logs.   The result was the base fused HE round.

In late 1943 trials were held between some of the British and the Australian rounds and the Australian rounds were found to penetrate up to several feet of alternating logs and sand protection whereas the British round exploded on contact and was largely ineffectual.   By then, the British had worked out their arguments and so their Armoured Cars, by then the last users of the 2 Pdr went into NW Europe armed with HE rounds (which in turn caused all sorts of problems with the Little-John adapters which they by then used to improve their AP performance).

With every second or third tank carrying a 3in How and the others in the troop carrying 2 Pdrs, the Mathilda soldiered on until war's end in the SW Pacific Theatre (and in peacetime to the late 1950s in the CMF).

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 02:47:29 PM »
I've always found the standard "story" that anything under 75mm couldn't fire a "useful" HE round to be curious. "Useful" is relative: if a sub-75mm HE round is no use, then why the current enthusiasm for 40mm grenade launchers?

It's all relative.  To the infantry, 40mm packs a wallop and is towards the top end of what can easily be carried and fired (and the recoil accepted by a shoulder).  The gunners, it's a pipsqueak.  They nowadays consider 155mm the norm and 105 the smallest worth firing.  75mm or smaller doesn't bear consideration.

On the receiving end, its all nasty.  ;)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2015, 10:45:33 PM »
Matilda medium tank.

Australia decides to start building tanks as part of pre-war rearmament, as its pre-war Infantry tanks seem to be the best option.  Due to the need to establish the capability to build them locally production is delayed giving time to assess the lessons of Blitzkrieg and determine that while the armour was sufficient, speed and firepower weren't so the opportunity was taken to fix these issues and turn the Australian version into a more versatile medium tank.

The turret from the Churchill IV or VI will probably fit, this gives the Matilda a 6pdr and a 95mm.   As this was a new line the hull could be widened if required but being early war the 6pdr would do so no need to go bigger and try and fit a 17pdr etc.

Engine, would the GM 6046 diesel of the M-3A3 and M-4A2 fit in a Matilda II.  Its component six cylinder engines are similar capacity to the AECs of the Matilda, as is the engine configuration, it is logical that the two engines should be similar in size but I know logic doesn't always apply.  This would significantly increase power, hence speed which in turn would require improved suspension, so would it be possible to fit the VVSS suspension from the M-3/4 etc?

So in a nutshell we have a modified Matilda hull with a Detroit Diesel, VVSS suspension, M-3 / M-4 tracks, widened / spaced out side skirts and a Churchill turret.  A perfectly adequate medium tank for the middle years of the war that would still be useful post war an all but the most challenging employment.  Shouldn't be that hard to model either.




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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 03:14:06 AM »
Matilda Infantry Tank Mark III with 57mm OQF 6 Pdr:


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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 03:14:51 AM »
I like the idea of converting old Matildas into 'Stug' style assault guns.
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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 03:21:27 AM »
Matilda with 76mm Zis gun:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 11:55:57 AM »
Matilda with 76mm Zis gun:




That looks impressive.

I like the idea of an assault gun version but am not sure how it could be done due to the shape of the hull and the central drivers position.

The Churchill turret would be a better fit with its smaller diameter turret ring, which should not need an adaptor as the Cavalier turret did.  As I plan to rob a Churchill of its turret and a Sherman of its suspension, the thought crossed my mind that a Churchill would look good with a Firefly turret. 

Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 01:24:21 PM »
I like the idea of converting old Matildas into 'Stug' style assault guns.

The Matilda's front hull was a thick one-piece casting so modifying it would be difficult.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 01:25:39 PM »
How about a Matilda Hedgehog modified post-war with early ATGWs in place of the spigot mortars and an auto-cannon in place of the 2-pdr?
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Offline jcf

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 02:47:00 PM »
I like the idea of converting old Matildas into 'Stug' style assault guns.

The Matilda's front hull was a thick one-piece casting so modifying it would be difficult.

Stug guns didn't come through the front of the hull, they were mounted in a casemate over the hull proper.
No reason the same thing wouldn't work on a Matilda II hull.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 07:03:50 PM »
I like the idea of converting old Matildas into 'Stug' style assault guns.

The Matilda's front hull was a thick one-piece casting so modifying it would be difficult.

Stug guns didn't come through the front of the hull, they were mounted in a casemate over the hull proper.
No reason the same thing wouldn't work on a Matilda II hull.

True but the result would be quite high and the gun permanently over the drivers position, where a Churchill based conversion could simply mount something larger than the original 3" howitzer in the hull, i.e. an 18 or 25pdr, while deleting the turret or replacing it with something smaller such as the 15mm BESA turret from the Mk VIC Light Tank, or even the Quad BESA turret from the Light AA Mk I for a really impressive infantry support vehicle.

My cunning plan is to see if I can realistically and convincingly turn the Matilda into a competent mid war medium tank that would give industry time to perfect (or discard and replace) the Churchill and Cromwell, without any need for the Valentine, Crusader, Covenanter, Cavalier, Centaur and perhaps even lead to reduced numbers of M-3 being ordered (there would still be significant numbers of Shermans as UK and Commonwealth production would not be able to met demand.  A successful Matilda medium could permit initial Churchill hulls being rerolled as assault guns and tank destroyers while, 17pdr armed, Meteor powered, medium (cruiser) and heavy (infantry) tanks are developed and perfected for large scale deployment prior to Normandy.

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 03:25:45 AM »
One could go either the low Stug style:



or the higher Marder style:



Either way, the idea would be to remanufacture older Matildas and to add in a larger main gun.  Practicality is optional... ;)
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 09:10:20 AM »
One could go either the low Stug style:

or the higher Marder style:


The reason the Germans could do the Stug style is that on the Panzer III, the vertical plate in front of the driver is a separate piece from the bow and glacis plates, which meant it could be replaced by a modified one on the Stug with the cut-out for the gun. The driver's position was already offset to the left.

On the Matilda, the entire bow, including the vertical area around the driver and the box, are a single casting, which means you can't just replace the top half with a new piece. It'd haved to be the whole casting or nothing, and if you're doing that, you might as well design a whole new vehicle. Furthermore, the Matilda driver sits dead centre without enough room for a gun to either side of him, and although it looks like the hull is full-width, in fact, the hull proper is a narrow 'canoe' like the Matilda I (it was actually inspired by the Christie tanks) with triangular stowage bins to either side. This means that you can't just move the Matilda driver to one side without, again, re-building the entire front end of the tank with new castings.

The Marder style might be doable, but again, you have the problem of the central driver's hatch, which means the new gun barrel can't really be mounted any lower than the original turret's 2 pounder. The Germans did actually try this with some Matildas they captured in France, the result being the 'Infanterie-Panzerkampfwagen Mk II (e) mit 5 cm KwK L/42 ("Oswald")'. As you can see, the Oswald was not exactly an impressive fighting vehicle:





(from here: http://en.valka.cz/topic/view/12466)

It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 09:20:10 AM »
Good pic of Matildas under construction at the Vulcan Foundry at Newton-le-Willows (about 30 miles from here, just north of Warrington).


From here: http://www.enuii.com/vulcan_foundry/ww2/photographs.htm

You can see both the bow shape without the stowage boxes and the small turret ring.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 09:22:28 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 09:28:01 AM »
Here's another one. Note how little room there is between the driver's casting and the engine bulkhead. You'd be hard-pressed to operate a gun with a much more inboard length and recoil stroke than the 2 pdr in such a space.


Pic from here: https://servicepub.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/part-1-the-infantry-tank-mark-ii-matilda-ii-a12-in-service-with-the-canadian-army-overseas/
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 12:35:17 PM »
It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.

Doesn't the Matilda II already have a turreted 3-inch howitzer option?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 12:40:17 PM »
If you look at the Churchill you find the same thing as the Matilda, the forward bulkhead for the engine bay is only a couple of inches aft of the turret ring
http://s11.photobucket.com/user/HKElias/media/GB-ChurchillCutAway.jpg.html

If the Cavalier turret fit and worked with an adapter the Churchill IV turret with the 6pdr, the V with the 95mm or the VI with the British 75mm, should be a more straightforward fit.

The assault gun I am still looing more at Churchill than Matilda, perhaps with a Stug type slightly raised superstructure that also provides more height to the engine bay for perhaps a Liberty V12.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 10:10:33 PM »
It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.

Doesn't the Matilda II already have a turreted 3-inch howitzer option?

Yes,  The 2 Pounder mount could be swapped for a 3 inch Howitzer.  This was usually done in the British Army with the Squadron HQ vehicles.  In the Australian Army, entire troops were swapped.


Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 10:23:16 PM »
It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.

Doesn't the Matilda II already have a turreted 3-inch howitzer option?

Yes,  The 2 Pounder mount could be swapped for a 3 inch Howitzer.  This was usually done in the British Army with the Squadron HQ vehicles.  In the Australian Army, entire troops were swapped.

Okay, fair comment. How about a 25 pdr then?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2015, 10:25:24 PM »
It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.

Doesn't the Matilda II already have a turreted 3-inch howitzer option?

Yes,  The 2 Pounder mount could be swapped for a 3 inch Howitzer.  This was usually done in the British Army with the Squadron HQ vehicles.  In the Australian Army, entire troops were swapped.

Okay, fair comment. How about a 25 pdr then?

Nope.  The turret was too small to house the gun and it's recoil and the ring was too narrow to absorb the recoil.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Matilda II ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 01:14:18 AM »
It might be possible to do an allied version of the Oswald with a 6 pdr, or more likely, a 75mm howitzer to provide HE support to the infantry and gun tanks.

Doesn't the Matilda II already have a turreted 3-inch howitzer option?

Yes,  The 2 Pounder mount could be swapped for a 3 inch Howitzer.  This was usually done in the British Army with the Squadron HQ vehicles.  In the Australian Army, entire troops were swapped.

Okay, fair comment. How about a 25 pdr then?

Nope.  The turret was too small to house the gun and it's recoil and the ring was too narrow to absorb the recoil.

No, I meant on an open mount like the Oswald.
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"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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