Author Topic: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72603 times)

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2013, 07:33:35 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.

Putting on the Whiff hat it would be cool to see a two seat US Army Harrier II with PAVE TACK under the belly and 24 Hellfires in Brimstone style triple rail launchers under the wings...

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2013, 07:53:52 AM »
My idea for the everyone-except-the-air-forces harriers would be that the USMC and RM go for a simple, multi-role aircraft like the AV-8A in order to get maximum flexibility from limited deck spots on their amphibious ships. The US and British armies however, with no deck space limitations and more ambitions to build their own "private" air forces, go for multiple specialist versions: strike aircraft with TFR and INS, CAS aircraft with LRMTS and recce aircraft with all-camera noses.

I built a model of the British Army photo-recce one, but struggling with the old Airfix Harrier put me off trying the rest:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25092.0/highlight,harrier+pr+4.html




The little tubes on the wingtips are supposed to be single SRAAM tubes.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2013, 07:59:20 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.

Putting on the Whiff hat it would be cool to see a two seat US Army Harrier II with PAVE TACK under the belly and 24 Hellfires in Brimstone style triple rail launchers under the wings...
There's a Harrier book out there that shows a mockup of a Hellfire quad rack on a Harrier II inboard hard points; have to scan that pic in as it's the only time I've seen it.  But, seriously, this would be a most attractive whif and quite plausible if the US Army went on to operate the Harrier.

Weaver,

I like the recce nose, but wouldn't they be more likely to just adopt the recce pod the RAF Harriers used, or at least a recce pod of suitable weight and size (I believe RAF Harriers flew with Jaguar recce pods at some points)?

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2013, 08:21:42 AM »
I built a model of the British Army photo-recce one, but struggling with the old Airfix Harrier put me off trying the rest:

The scabbed on fairing under the nose looks great.

My idea for the everyone-except-the-air-forces harriers would be that the USMC and RM go for a simple, multi-role aircraft like the AV-8A in order to get maximum flexibility from limited deck spots on their amphibious ships. The US and British armies however, with no deck space limitations and more ambitions to build their own "private" air forces, go for multiple specialist versions: strike aircraft with TFR and INS, CAS aircraft with LRMTS and recce aircraft with all-camera noses.

It’s an interesting idea ‘everyone-except-the-air-forces’ and maybe an idea for a group build? What if there was never, ever an air force, anywhere? If in 1918 General Jan Smuts reported back to Lloyd George that there was no need for an air force just a demarcation of responsibilities between the RFC and RNAS. The Army would get strategic bombing and the navy air defence of the homeland in addition to their tactical roles. Without the example of the Royal Air Force all the world’s other air arms remained part of their Navy and Army and in some cases also the Marines.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2013, 08:41:11 AM »

Weaver,

I like the recce nose, but wouldn't they be more likely to just adopt the recce pod the RAF Harriers used, or at least a recce pod of suitable weight and size (I believe RAF Harriers flew with Jaguar recce pods at some points)?


Well you could say that about any specialised photo-recce aircraft: why bother with an RF-4E or a Mirage IIIR either? Don't forget, there are no "RAF" Harriers in this scenario: the armies and marines corps own the project right from the start, so they don't have to "piggy-back" on somebody else's program. The marine corps use recce pods for maximum versatility from the small number of aircraft on their ships, but the armies want the nearest thing to their own "proper" air forces that they can get away with.

RAF Harriers didn't use the Jaguar pod, which was pretty big: probably too big to fit between the main and nose gears on a Harrier. Harriers used a smaller pod with just cameras in it: no IR Linescan like the Jag pod.

Harrier Pod: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/postww2/ac/Harrier/Harrier.html
Jaguar Pod: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/postww2/ac/Jaguar/Jaguar.html


"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2013, 09:06:49 AM »
Leave it to the British to design a delightfully Whiffable aircraft!  :)


Later, in Afghanistan, the US Army gets AV-8x's based on airframe upgrades similar to the FA.2.   
Edit:  They don't preclude the Harrier II series.

Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:27:26 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2013, 09:11:41 AM »
Well, with no RAF Harrier buy, I could see a dedicated recce version being built though I suspect it'd have secondary capabilities just as a matter of course.  I'd be willing to wager that the various armies and marine corps don't go for a common equipment fit, though I can see going for a common airframe.  I still think that a recce capacity that can be quickly fitted to any aircraft when needed is worth having.

Regarding pods used by the Harriers, I've seen pictures of more than one pod in use, something about the older, wet film, pods being replaced by ones from another aircraft.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2013, 10:36:02 AM »
Leave it to the British to design a delightfully Whiffable aircraft!  :)


The two seat Harrier II (T.10) is crying out for some night attack mods with that high rear seat.



Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.


On the A-7 PAVE PENNY was faired in under the intake. Something similar could be possible under the nose of the Harrier because there is spare room unlike an A-10 with the GAU-8 and gear taking up all the real estate under the nose. Though there was nothing in the actual nose cone so it made a lot of sense to put the optic seeker there on the GR.3 and Harrier II. For less drag. Maybe on an AV-8A without the INS there would be enough room to have PAVE PENNY within the exsisting mould line so it wouldn't need a nose extension and look like an AV-8B. Catch people out with the AV-8B nose cone and the low set cockpit.


Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2013, 10:56:15 AM »
Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.
Well, the obvious one is to take the "Blue Eric" route and install the Pave Penny in the front of a gun pod structure, leaving the remainder for other kit if needed.  Alternatively, you could refair the nose around the Pave Penny guts and have something that resembles the nose of a Hunter FGA.11.  Personally, I like the idea of an enlarged nose for the Pave Penny because the later could then later be fitted with the ARBS used on A-4M's and Harrier II's.

Regarding the two-seat Harriers, I could see the second-generation two-seaters being used operationally, especially where a second set of eyes would be useful.  Perhaps even a radar-equipped one like the demonstrator I schemed sometime back (and still intend to model).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 10:59:27 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2013, 12:41:06 PM »
So, just as a visualization exercise for the 1:48 scale modeler, three "near real" US Army Harriers could be:

1.  Monogram AV-8A with LIDS, RWR, Pave Penny under the chin, LGB's on the outer pylons,  Desert Storm.
2.  Airfix FA.2 but the nose has no Blue Vixen and instead has a Hughes AN/ASB-19 unit in the nose and a glass cockpit.  Afghanistan/Desert Storm 2
3.  Airfix FRS.1 instead of the AV-8A

Other details such as chaff/flare dispensers, ECM lumps and bumps, etc. presumed to be added too.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2013, 07:44:43 PM »
The two seat Harrier II (T.10) is crying out for some night attack mods with that high rear seat.

It's what I thought when I started this T-10/TAV-8B conversion:
Top pic is my Sea Harrier F.3 or whatever armed with British developed long range AIM missiles (using Martel airframes). The idea is that the system needed a dedicated GIB to co-ordinate the defence with other single seat Sea Harriers carrying other AIM Martels by data-link
Second pic the Martel with a jet engine
Third pic is showing where I've added a plug into the rear fuselage and also the master data-link pod under the fuselage on a modified gun pack housing.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:47:13 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2013, 07:59:04 PM »
Then there's this one, a dedicated ECM Harrier.  The idea was influenced by this model in the top pic (I can't for the life of me remember who drew it, but he was on the What-If Forum)

I'm attaching an F-16 nose to it and it will all be blended in, this nose would be packed with ECM associated stuff and instead of having the two strakes/gun pods under the fuselage, I've modified a couple of ECM pods from an EA-6
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 08:04:53 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2013, 08:40:37 PM »
Well, with no RAF Harrier buy, I could see a dedicated recce version being built though I suspect it'd have secondary capabilities just as a matter of course. 


Oh sure - note the wingtip SRAAMs. You could always put the pylons back on and have an attack capability not far short of an AV-8A.

Quote
I'd be willing to wager that the various armies and marine corps don't go for a common equipment fit, though I can see going for a common airframe.  I still think that a recce capacity that can be quickly fitted to any aircraft when needed is worth having.


They don't - that's why it takes several models to show the range. The two marine corps agree with you about the podded recce. The two armies want maximum capability from their "mini-me" airforces. Such is inter-service politics.....

Quote
Regarding pods used by the Harriers, I've seen pictures of more than one pod in use, something about the older, wet film, pods being replaced by ones from another aircraft.


There's no way the original Jaguar wet-film pod would go on a Harrier for the reasons I've stated (there's a good pic in that link I put up). Much later on, Jags got the Digital Joint Recce Pod (DJRP) that was much shorter than the original pod, and those were subsequently shared with the Harrier force. That was only possible because it was as short as the original Harrier wet film pod though.

This is the original Harrier pod:


This is the original Jaguar pod:


This is the DJRP under a Jag:




Re Pave Penny, remember that all GR.1/AV-8As had a side-facing F.95 camera in the nose cone. Remove that and you'd almost have room for a Pave Penny: maybe it would need a slighty extended cone, but certainly not as long as the GR.3 one, which held both the camera and the LRMTS. If you have a look at a cutaway of the GR.3 (easy to find on the internet) you'll see how much shorter it could be without the camera, and I think I'm right in saying that Pave Penny is even smaller than LRMTS.



 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:19:56 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:27 PM »
I rather agree on all counts. 
-------------------------------------------EDIT-----------------------------
I had a chance to do some digging.  THe Harrier GR.1/GR.3 only used the five-camera wet-film pod.  The Harrier II in RAF service could use either this pod or a VICON pod that recorded the images electronically.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:40:43 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2013, 04:46:25 AM »
Going into a different mode altogether, I am hoping the up and coming movie "Planes'' features some Harrier derivatives.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2013, 05:54:54 AM »
Just a thought with regard to using the Sea Harrier FRS.1 airframe with other fitments, a version of the Harrier proposed to the PLAAF fitted a GR.3's avionics to a Sea harrier airframe because that was the airframe in production at the time.  I could see that being done for various Army and Marine versions to take advantage of the better fivew from the Sea Harrier cockpit.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2013, 08:11:03 AM »
Just a thought with regard to using the Sea Harrier FRS.1 airframe with other fitments, a version of the Harrier proposed to the PLAAF fitted a GR.3's avionics to a Sea harrier airframe because that was the airframe in production at the time.  I could see that being done for various Army and Marine versions to take advantage of the better fivew from the Sea Harrier cockpit.

Considerably more avionics space too (which was the prime reason for the cockpit mod: the increased visibility was a nice bonus). For a strike version, you might be able to get a small terrain-following radar in the tip of the nose with the LRMTS below and behind it in a Tornado-style ventral fairing, or even semi-recessed.


PS: fixed the pics in my post about recce pods.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:22:45 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2013, 09:48:18 AM »
LRMTS just below and behind the TFR radome in a manner similar to the original radar-nosed Jaguar proposal.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2013, 10:01:47 AM »
(goes to stash, digs out 1:48 Airfix Harriers, discovers Monogram AV-8a missing canopy and remembers it was to graft the SHAR nose/tail onto)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real world questions for the Whiffverse:   Where did the A, B, C designations stop?   In other words, would an updated AV-8C been an E, F, or G, etc.?   And yes, I'm disincluding the AV-8S intentionally.    Then, finally, was there a FRS.2?   Or at least proposed?    And yes, in my case work up, this is all going into US Army and USMC scenarios.   


Thanks
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:01:31 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2013, 11:09:08 AM »
For whatever reason, you just have the AV-8A (which really should've been an AV-6B and was initially listed that way in some sources), its improved/rebuilt version, the AV-8C, and the AV-8B which comes in basic, NA, and + versions when the last two really should have been AV-8D and AV-8E.  What was to have been the Sea Harrier FRS.2 became the Sea Harrier FA.2 though the miracle of modern governmental PR.  I don't know that you'd see further rebuilds of the AV-8A/C airframes, there comes a time when you simply need to construct new airframes.  Mind you, I could see the LIDS from the AV-8C being used on Harrier GR.3B's and T.4B's as well as Sea Harrier FRS.1A's (perhaps with a dedicated small radar such as certain Italian firms make or a derivative of the F-16 or F-20 radar).

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2013, 12:10:48 PM »
BAe's proposal for a big metal wing (as opposed to McDD's big composite one) was retro-fittable to earlier airframes, so had it been adopted, you could have had first gen. "AV-8B/C/D" etc and Harrier GR.5/6/7.

The second version of the Sea Harrier changed from FRS.1 to FA.2 for two reasons:

1. The "R".

The FRS.1 had the same F.95 oblique camera as the GR.1/GR.3, but on the other side and moved back under the cockpit floor. In the FA.2, the camera was sacrificed for a video that recorded HUD/CRT imagery. No camera = no "R".

2. The "S".

Allegedly, the "S" for "Strike" in FRS.1 signified that the aircraft were wired to carry a WE.177 tac nuke on one of the inboard pylons, which was non-jettisonable (in accordance with NATO rules) as a result. This capability was dropped in the FA.2, hence "A" for "Attack".

And no, neither decision is entirely consistent with other examples of RAF/RN designation policy: I suspect there have been more changes of policy than aircraft to apply them to..... ::)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2013, 12:20:23 PM »
Yep...new construction instead of rebuilds.  And, additionally, it would be irrespective of other versions being constructed as well.   Plausible?  Heck no!  ;D

Edit:   And with all the real life info in this thread alone, there are enough variations to keep the Somewhat Near Real spurious building going on for a number of years with just Harriers!     Thanks to each for the contributions thus far.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 12:38:34 PM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2013, 03:54:38 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2013, 06:32:40 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.
An EAV-8J along the lines of an EA-7L?  that could be interesting.  Still think they need AV-8J's with full radar fit (for local content rules, use a version of the F-2's radar) to go with it.

Offline Geoff

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2013, 06:49:26 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.
An EAV-8J along the lines of an EA-7L?  that could be interesting.  Still think they need AV-8J's with full radar fit (for local content rules, use a version of the F-2's radar) to go with it.

Me too