Author Topic: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 86376 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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I wonder how well a Shackleton wing would go on a Sunderland-esque flying boat hull?

Offline kitnut617

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I wonder how well a Shackleton wing would go on a Sunderland-esque flying boat hull?

That would be Shetland-size then ---

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
I knew I'd seen a picture.  Not an AVRo design but a Saro one, the P.104 was recce and ASW flying boat project,intended for R2/48 Specification:





Roughly similar wing to a Shack, I believe.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 04:59:48 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline The Big Gimper

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I'll start with:

1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S
2. Replace twin tails with a large single fin
3. Tanker version with drogues

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline tsrjoe

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Turboprops and a nice smart colour scheme like the early Nimrods :)

Offline upnorth

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1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S


I think you might be laying the foundation of a firekiller conversion for the North American market with that, especially if you're going with a tricycle landing gear variant.

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Offline mrvr6

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swept wing turboprop?

Offline GTX_Admin

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I'll start with:

1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S
2. Replace twin tails with a large single fin
3. Tanker version with drogues

Errr…check out Reply #63 on Pg 5 of this thread.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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And speaking of which…

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

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Something interesting I came across in Stewart Wilsons Lincoln, Canberra and F-111 in RAAF Service, was that Lawrence Wackett was a member of the group assigned to tour and report on the best options for a new combat aircraft to be manufactured in Australia from 1944/45.  Apart from identifying the Liberator as the best option for the RAAF, but pointless to produce locally due to production rates in the US, Wacket suggested a version of the Lancaster with two stage supercharged Merlins and.50 defensive guns would be a suitable type for the RAAF, this is basically what the Lincoln was.

What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.

Offline GTX_Admin

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I have something similar planned...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

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It was interesting that Wackett basically pre-empted the Lancaster IV / Lincoln and also was pretty spot on about US built Liberators being suitable for the RAAF.  They had initially been sent to look at twin engined medium bombers but determined that there were no new ones available with all existing types actually being attack aircraft rather than bombers with the Beaufighter, Mosquito and, potentially, CA-11 covering that range of missions quite adequately.  Still the A-26C (later B-26) would probably have served quite well.

Apparently up to twenty four Tudors were meant to be built locally as well as the Lincolns with 12 Tudor IIs actually being ordered.  It is interesting that the government of the day were under the impression that the Lancaster  / Lincoln was equivalent or superior to the B-29 were Wackett was more pragmatic in that he believed Australian industry at that point would not have been capable of fabricating its pressurized fuselage.

The post war plan for the RAAF was quite interesting, 16 squadrons, made up of 3 heavy bomber, 2 long range fighter, 1 heavy bomber / reconnaissance, 1 tactical reconnaissance, 4 interceptor (citizen), 1 target towing, 1 survey, 1 search and rescue, and 2 transport.  The Lancaster / Lincoln, Tudor, or York and possibly Shackleton could have covered off 6, possibly 7 (including SAR) of the squadrons for quite a substantial production run. It would be interesting to know what the RAAFs thoughts were for the different squadrons. i.e. was the Mustang the long range fighter (is this what the DH Seahornet was evaluated for?) or the interceptor (perhaps this was initially the Spitfire) and where did the Mosquito and Beaufighter fit in all this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 02:12:56 PM by Volkodav »

Offline kengeorge

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Tiger Force.
 
Apologies as it's a bit of a bump.
Here I am asking a question, regarding the RAF's Tiger Force.
I've trawled Google & Wiki for answers, & understandably it's all a bit vague.
So the questions are these-
Does anyone know where the force may have been based, as in islands?
Who could be the CO?
If anyone could point me in the right direction, as in books or websites or answers, I would be grateful.

Also something has me foncused, 'Range vs Radius of action' what is the difference?
Avro Lancaster I Range: 2,530 mi (2,200 nmi, 4,073 km) with 14,000lb bomb-load? If correct, then radius of action is-1,265 mi (1,100 nmi, 2,036.5 km). Is that right?

Ken.


Offline jcf

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Nope, most published numbers just give a max range, and sometimes that is a ferry range number i.e. just fuel
and crew point-to-point. This is also true of max speed and max altitude numbers, they are often what the
airframe is theoretically capable of in clean configuration.

You have to dig to find 'combat load/range/radius' numbers.

B.Mk.I (range)
2,530 miles with 7,000 lbs
1,730 miles with 12,000 lbs
1,550 miles with 22,000 lbs

Here is a telling statistic for the Manchester:
1,630 miles with 8,000 lbs and 1,160 gallons of fuel
1,200 miles with 10,350 lbs and 882 gallons of fuel

The book Halifax by Merrick is nice in that has appendix of the load statistics for the
various marks of the Halibag, and you can really see the tradeoffs of load versus performance.
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Offline kitnut617

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There was an article in Air Britain's Aeromilitaria about Tiger Force (it was the bases for my Avro Nottingham project) not long ago, and at the beginning it was a force made up of RAF and RCAF squadrons. Later Australia and New Zealand were to join the force.  The article says that even before the European phase of the war was over, RCAF squadrons were being sent back to Canada to work-up on the Pacific phase and that the plan was to use the Lancaster Mk.IV (which ended up being called Lincolns). Victory Aircraft were just gearing up to produce the Lincoln when the war ended and that the force was to gather on the west coast (in British Columbia). Where they would have operated from wasn't mentioned, but as there was a considerable RCAF presence in the Eleutian Islands, it would make more sense that was where they would have been based and attack Japan from the North. The British side of the Force would have come through China I think (via Burma/India) as my Dad who was with 617 Sqn at the end of the war was in what is called Bangladesh now, at a base called Digri IIRC just after the war had ended ( the atomic bomb attacks putting an end to Tiger Force).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:46:48 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline finsrin

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swept wing turboprop?

1/100 Tu-20 wings !
And,,, letz not forget the Stirling when UK bomber kitbashing.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Offline KiwiZac

  • The Modeller Formerly Known As K5054NZ
There's a lot of chatter among Kiwi enthusiasts about the Hercules and Orion possibly being replaced (moreso the Orion). Relevant to this thread is this post by one of the Wings Over New Zealand forum members:

Quote
I remember the talk of a search for a suitable aircraft while I was at school, before I joined the BES in '64, there was talk of trying to find a flying boat as well as the C-130, I think even the Shackelton was mentioned. A maritime Herc today would be a different bird than 50 years ago.

An RNZAF Shackleton, replacing the Sunderland instead of the Orion. I really, really like this idea, even though the type would be considered obsolete by 1966 (real-world Orion acquisition). Maybe we buy them ten years earlier, and they end up in Orion-style white-over-grey later on...

I was already going to buy at least one Airfix Shack. Make that two.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?
Zac in NZ
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Offline GTX_Admin

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There's a lot of chatter among Kiwi enthusiasts about the Hercules and Orion possibly being replaced (moreso the Orion). Relevant to this thread is this post by one of the Wings Over New Zealand forum members:

Quote
I remember the talk of a search for a suitable aircraft while I was at school, before I joined the BES in '64, there was talk of trying to find a flying boat as well as the C-130, I think even the Shackelton was mentioned. A maritime Herc today would be a different bird than 50 years ago.


An RNZAF Shackleton, replacing the Sunderland instead of the Orion. I really, really like this idea, even though the type would be considered obsolete by 1966 (real-world Orion acquisition). Maybe we buy them ten years earlier, and they end up in Orion-style white-over-grey later on...

I was already going to buy at least one Airfix Shack. Make that two.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?


Personally I think the Shack would have been a retrograde step.  Re the flying boat option see answer here:  http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1926.new#new
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:54:20 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline KiwiZac

  • The Modeller Formerly Known As K5054NZ
YOU'RE a retrograde step! *runs to bedroom and slams door*

The SAAF machines weren't delivered until 1957 so, timewise, I think it works. The Shin-Meiwa idea is a cool one, though...
Zac in NZ
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Offline GTX_Admin

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YOU'RE a retrograde step! *runs to bedroom and slams door*
;D
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline jcf

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Neither Schack nor Shin Meiwa for the Kiwis, go for a Double-Mamba powered Superfreighter derived
patrol aircraft.
;D  :icon_fsm:
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Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Or zero lifed, re-engined turbo Sunderlands...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline jcf

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Or zero lifed, re-engined turbo Sunderlands...

It would probably be cheaper to design and build a new aircraft.  ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline GTX_Admin

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Bah!! Reality. ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.