Author Topic: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 26707 times)

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Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« on: November 06, 2015, 02:44:04 AM »
Hi folks,

I can't believe that we did't have a thread dedicated to your Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration...but we do now:


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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 02:44:56 AM »
To begin with, looking at this image made me wonder...what about a non tracked but rather purely wheeled Chieftain:

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Offline raafif

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 03:24:17 AM »
thanks to a certain miscreant on here (yes, it was Volkodav) I'm considering an IDF Chieftan with Blazer-block armour ... have the bits, just researching the year of introduction & correct colour scheme ;)

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 03:27:56 AM »
How about a downgraded Chieftain with a 105mm gun?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 04:58:15 AM »
Academy have just brought out a range of inexpensive 1/48th tanks (just posted details on their thread) which include a Challenger. That puts lots of ideals in my head:

Swap the cupola and all external "style" bits between the Merkava and the Challenger to make an Israeli Chally and a British Merk.

There was a project in the 1980s for an export tank called the Vickers Valiant that was essentially a Leo II hull with a Vickers turret and the rifled 120mm gun. It never got anywhere, but I think I'm right in saying that some of the turret work got iinto Challenger II. You could do this as a turret swap between a Leo and a Chally. The Valiant turret wasn't exactly like a Chally, but it had the same style.

Simple barrel swap between the Leo and the Chally: one shows Britain biting the bullet and adopting the German smoothbore, while the other shows either NATO adopting the rifled gun or the Germans offering it as an export option for the Middle East.

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 12:55:07 AM »
I can't believe that we did't have a thread dedicated to your Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration...

Because I have been unable to re-discover an illustration I could almost swear to have seen of a Challenger tank with a radar-directed anti-ATGM twin 7.62mm machinegun mount placed on top of turret rear  ;D

Anyway.  I also remember seeing an illustration (don't know if it's fan art or not) of a Merkava tank hull with Vickers MBT Mk.7 turret.  Coupled with the fact that Merkava came into being as a partial result of Israel unable to buy the Chieftain tank...... Merkava with Chieftain tank turret sounds interesting by the virtue of "going full-circle", but I personally prefer Merkava with Vickers or Challenger turret as well as composite armour from Challenger even though I haven't found a justification for that yet.
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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 03:12:23 AM »
What about a Chieftain modified into a firefighting tank such as this:

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 03:43:23 AM »
Jagdchieftain anyone?

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 03:50:18 AM »
Chieftain Marksman:



or from Greater Australia, the Chieftain AS1 Air Defence Variant (ADV) or, "Echidna" - with 120mm main gun replaced with a General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger, seven barrel 30mm cannon fed by a magazine holding up to 1600 rounds and two 4 round pods fitted with Swedish RBS 70 laser-guided missiles.



Later replaced by the Challenger II based Echidna II with the the RBS70 missiles replaced with the more potent Oerlikon Aerospace Air-Defense Anti-Tank System (ADATS) in two sets of four missiles. 



These of course support ADF Chieftain and Challenger II tanks:


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Offline raafif

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 03:53:43 AM »
Jordanian Falcon .... all crew in hull.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 04:00:23 AM »
How about the Cold War is still hot when the Chieftains are taken out of service as gun tanks, so the hulls are re-used for other combat types:

GCT-style 155mm SPG turret (Vickers had a design)

SPAAG: Marconi Marksman, Gepard or something else

SPSAM: there was a scheme to put Tigercat on a Centurion, so how about Rapier or Starstreak on a Chieftain?

IAV: apparently the British Army wanted an Israeli-style heavy APC in the early 1980s but the government wouldn't fund it so they got the Warrior instead. How about old Chieftain hulls being used as the basis of an APC in the 1990s? Options might be:

1. Israeli-style tank-hull-with-an-armoured box on top
2. Achzerit-style conversion with a smaller rear engine plus tunnel (see below)
3. Namer/Temsah style with reversed drive train for normal APC layout


Turns out Jordan has done an 'Achzerit' conversion based on a Tariq (Centurion) called the MAP. Instead of fitting a more compact engine to get the rear tunnel, they have instead widened the hull by 450mm and also added a front hatch. Easy to imagine doing something similar to a Chieftain:





Source: http://defence.pk/threads/jordanian-map-ii-heavy-apc.237947/
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 04:10:24 AM by Weaver »
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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 04:39:07 AM »

Because I have been unable to re-discover an illustration I could almost swear to have seen of a Challenger tank with a radar-directed anti-ATGM twin 7.62mm machinegun mount placed on top of turret rear  ;D



You weren't thinking of the Challenger 2 TES standard were you:



Apart from the added armour, extra sensors etc, this has a remote weapon station on top.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 07:28:59 AM »
You weren't thinking of the Challenger 2 TES standard were you......

Nah.  The artist impression I saw was kinda like a miniature version of Marksman turret with a radar dome on top.

Is there any blow-out panel on the Challenger tank's turret bustle though?  I remember the system being placed on top of the Challenger's own turret bustle in the illustration.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 01:00:05 PM »
ROF proposed such a system and I remember drawings of it, it mounted multiple MMGs and a radar system and was mounted on a turret bustle.  As far as I am aware, the Challenger does not have have any blow off panels, unlike the M1 and the Leopard 2.  As it carries it's explosive charges separately to the projectiles lower down, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed storage lockers, its not really necessary.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 07:43:31 PM »
I hadn't thought of a Chieftain HAPC or more to the point HIFV, what a great idea, especially for my ever changing (possibly schizophrenic) Antipodean Armour Fest. The question is how to do it, front engine, rear engine with tunnel, or mid engine (with or without tunnel). 

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 07:57:51 PM »
Do it like a Temsah conversion of the Centurion, I'd suggest.  Reverse the drive train and have the vehicle permanently driven backwards with an entry ramp placed in the old front of the vehicle.   It would combine the added protection of the engine with increased armour on the old stern of the vehicle.  It would be easier to do that, IMHO than to do an Achzerit-style conversion with a smaller rear engine plus tunnel.  Your passengers would be given superior enbus/debus access to the passenger compartment, not having to manoeuvre over a drive axle.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2015, 12:14:43 AM »
Canadian Corps '86 "Chimera"


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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2015, 04:54:27 AM »
I hadn't thought of a Chieftain HAPC or more to the point HIFV, what a great idea, especially for my ever changing (possibly schizophrenic) Antipodean Armour Fest. The question is how to do it, front engine, rear engine with tunnel, or mid engine (with or without tunnel).


I suppose the Jordanians (King Abdulah II Design and Development Bureau to be precise) give you to ideas based upon what they have done with the Centurion:

Multi-purpose Armored Platform (MAP) heavy APCdevelopment of the Tariq main battle tank (upgraded version of Centurion) which features fornt and rear hatches for troops to dismount:



or the Temsah Heavy APC which also uses the Tariq hull but is arranged so that it is essentially driving backwards and thus allows for a more 'traditional' APC compartment:



Now would you give it a turret perhaps like the Scimitar?
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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2015, 07:09:23 AM »
An image to give you a rough idea of what a Chieftain Heavy APC might look like:

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2015, 07:11:50 AM »
Some random ideas:

Canadian Chieftain
South African Chieftain
Indian Chieftain
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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2015, 07:28:45 AM »
Chieftain Sabre AA Tank:


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Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2015, 11:08:25 AM »
I also remember seeing an illustration (don't know if it's fan art or not) of a Merkava tank hull with Vickers MBT Mk.7 turret.


I knew I've saved a copy of the picture somewhere:



ROF proposed such a system and I remember drawings of it, it mounted multiple MMGs and a radar system and was mounted on a turret bustle.


I wish I'd saved a copy of that illustration when I saw it *banging head*

As far as I am aware, the Challenger does not have have any blow off panels, unlike the M1 and the Leopard 2.  As it carries it's explosive charges separately to the projectiles lower down, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed storage lockers, its not really necessary.


Got it.  Thanks.  I wonder if this comes up as a problem when British evaluated rearming their tanks with 120mm smoothbore gun.   Though I seem to recall that Jordanians actually demonstrated a Challenger I with a smoothbore gun in stock turret, too.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 11:41:02 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2015, 11:17:20 AM »
Got it.  Thanks.  I wonder if this comes up as a problem when British evaluated rearming their tanks with 120mm smoothbore gun.   Though I seem to recall that Jordanians actually demonstrated a Challenger I  with a smoothbore gun in stock turret, too.

Yes it made the re-arming MUCH more complicated. Actually fitting the gun wasn't that difficult, but re-jigging the ammo system was devil-in-a-million-details job. It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

AFAIK, the smoothbore conversion is off the table for the moment, but apparently, they've just started studying Challenger replacements again, mainly because the new Russian Armata has them worried. So far the only thing they've committed to is a Chally upgrade though.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2015, 11:50:25 AM »
More ideas:

German Chieftain

I've got a half-finished model of a British Army Marder, so how about a German Chieftain/Challenger I as a quid pro quo? They might conclude that the Leo I's 'protection through speed' philosophy was wrong-headed and that heavy armour is the way to go or that the Leo needs a 'heavy' tank to back it up (really a return to WWII ideas), so they buy the Chieftain, suitably 'Germanised'. I'm thinking:

Smoothbore gun (or maybe they're convinced by the L11 - they used the L7....)
MTU engine
Solid turret bins instead of cages
Small IR searchlight mounted over barrel instead of turret side unit
Open tool 'trays' instead of some track guard boxes
Twin low-profile cupolas with skate-ring MG3s instead of big cupola plus plain hatch

A German buy might convince some other NATO nations to follow suite: Belgium? Netherlands?


Chieftain ATGW carrier

Suppose the British Army decided it wanted a heavy, sohpisticated ATGW carrier similar to the Jagdpanzer Rakete instead of the FV.438? The result might have a fixed superstructure (FV.438 on steroids) in place of the turret with muzzle-loading Swingfire boxes overhanging the engine deck.

OR

It could have a rotating turret that would look a bit like a Chally II, but with 16 elevating Swingfires (2 rows of 8) in the bustle, reloadable externally, plus a RARDEN at the front. The turret crew would be just two: gunner (missile and cannon) sat where the Chieftain's gunner sits, and commander/cannon-loader on the other side.



"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 03:45:24 AM »
How about a Chieftain variant with a 152mm gun/launcher such as on the M60A2/M551 to allow use of the Shillelagh missile?
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