Author Topic: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 80213 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2015, 04:33:02 AM »
Back to T-55s:

T-55M5:





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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2015, 04:43:30 AM »
Something a little different - the 2S25 Sprut-SD tank destroyer which is based upon the BMD-3:




« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 04:47:43 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: September 04, 2015, 07:42:17 AM »


Oh I recognize that one. Battlefield
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Offline arkon

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: September 04, 2015, 08:57:47 AM »
Not being an "armor/tank" guy, what is the purpose of having "tank destroyer " over over just having a tank? Seems like all those tds are just really lite skinned vehicles ready to be knocked out just like tanks.
the paper gods demand sacrifice

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: September 04, 2015, 01:23:04 PM »
Tanks are meant to be able to slog it out with other tanks, in open warfare.  Tank Destroyers attack tanks from ambush and avoid an open fight, as much as possible.   TD's tend to be used defensively, whereas tanks tend to be used both offensively and defensively.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: September 04, 2015, 04:01:01 PM »
^ And in case of the 2S25 Sprut-SD, you have a specialized vehicle for Russia's VDV airborne troops. It can be landed by parachute, is fully amphibious and can go places an MBT can't (lower weight and ground pressure). Of course it won't survive a hit from another MBT's main gun, but with its own "full-size" gun, it can take on other MBTs with a far better chance of success than the other VDV's vehicles, such as the BMD-4 (whose 100mm rifled gun uses only HE shells or ATGMs) or any of the vehicles equipped with the 2A72 30mm autocannon. All their genuine anti-tank capability so far was provided by various types of ATGMs only.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2015, 06:35:51 AM »
Updated T-64 this time - the T-64E.  Note the twin 23mm cannon:




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Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: November 09, 2015, 01:25:00 PM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The ROF difference is at worse marginal.  With a well trained crew, the ROF is comparable to a weapon using fixed ammunition.  With split ammunition you gain greater safety (at the time of it's introduction) and a lighter weight turret (not requiring as much protection) which can be better shaped to meet the enemy's fire.

Because I don't know the handling characteristics of Russian 125mm guns, this exchange makes me wonder if the use of a Human loader can be practical with the 125mm gun in the same way as the British 120mm rifled gun.

Is the Russian 125mm ammunition separated in the same way as the British 120mm?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: November 09, 2015, 07:35:19 PM »
Updated T-64 this time - the T-64E.  Note the twin 23mm cannon:

Is it actually two 23mm cannons or the GSh-23 twin-barrelled revolver cannon? Either way, ouch.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: November 09, 2015, 07:41:53 PM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The ROF difference is at worse marginal.  With a well trained crew, the ROF is comparable to a weapon using fixed ammunition.  With split ammunition you gain greater safety (at the time of it's introduction) and a lighter weight turret (not requiring as much protection) which can be better shaped to meet the enemy's fire.

Because I don't know the handling characteristics of Russian 125mm guns, this exchange makes me wonder if the use of a Human loader can be practical with the 125mm gun in the same way as the British 120mm rifled gun.

Is the Russian 125mm ammunition separated in the same way as the British 120mm?

The Russian ammo is separate: In the T-72 and T-90, each propellant charge sits above it's projectile in a cradle which is elevated to the ramming position. The shell is rammed, then the cradle drops down a level and the charge is rammed. In the T-80, the two components are gathered up by a cradle and them rammed in one action.

I think you very probably could use a human loader with the 125mm.

Good little animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIaoOabF_0
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 07:44:53 PM by Weaver »
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"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: November 10, 2015, 09:00:54 AM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The ROF difference is at worse marginal.  With a well trained crew, the ROF is comparable to a weapon using fixed ammunition.  With split ammunition you gain greater safety (at the time of it's introduction) and a lighter weight turret (not requiring as much protection) which can be better shaped to meet the enemy's fire.

Because I don't know the handling characteristics of Russian 125mm guns, this exchange makes me wonder if the use of a Human loader can be practical with the 125mm gun in the same way as the British 120mm rifled gun.

Is the Russian 125mm ammunition separated in the same way as the British 120mm?

Nope.  British 120mm gun uses bagged charges which are stored separately from the projectile, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed lockers which automatically flood the locker if the vehicle is penetrated.   The Soviet 120mm has a split round but uses IIRC a combustible case.  The projectile and case are stored in separate lockers of the autoloader, one above the other in the autoloader.   In theory, if a human loader was used instead of the autoloader, he would be faster than the loader in the Chieftain/Challenger because he would be handling a cased propellant charge, rather than a bagged one but I suspect the difference would be marginal and largely negated because he'd have to be a midget or kneeling/crouched to fit into the turret basket, whereas he stands/sits in the British tank.  Loading a tank gun is just as much about crew comfort as it is about what the loader is handling.   Human loaders will invariably outperform an autoloader on the first engagement but that will slow as the battle continues and the loader tires whereas the autoloader doesn't.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: November 10, 2015, 12:13:32 PM »
In theory, if a human loader was used instead of the autoloader, he would be faster than the loader in the Chieftain/Challenger because he would be handling a cased propellant charge, rather than a bagged one but I suspect the difference would be marginal and largely negated because he'd have to be a midget or kneeling/crouched to fit into the turret basket, whereas he stands/sits in the British tank.  Loading a tank gun is just as much about crew comfort as it is about what the loader is handling.   Human loaders will invariably outperform an autoloader on the first engagement but that will slow as the battle continues and the loader tires whereas the autoloader doesn't.

Well, the only reason why I asked the question here is that the gun originated from Soviet-bloc......

Using a Human loader is probably to the benefit of re-gunned Chieftain/Mobarez and EE-T2 Osorio......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: November 14, 2015, 07:05:36 AM »
What if the Soviets had developed this themselves though?  Imagine the disconcertion in the west to see a bunch of these rumbling along during a May day parade in their parade best:




Yeah good and valid point Greg!!
I'd imagine it would have scared and spurred on the West, just as had happened when Western intelligence discovery, interpreted the BMP-1, which had derived the Marder, AMX-10, Bradley MICV's and doctrine. Would have been very very expensive all round for everyone!

Question, if I may?
Does anyone recall the early U.S. militaries designation for the BMP-1? It was undoubtedly a 'M' designation ! For example the MT-LB was designated 'M-1970', the 2S1 Gvozdika - 'M-1974', the 2S3 Akatsiya - 'M-1973',....... So seeing the BMP-1s were first seen by the West on 7 November 1967, does this mean it would have been designated 'M-1967'? I can't remember  :(

M.A.D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:09:40 AM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: November 14, 2015, 07:12:44 AM »
Something a little different - the 2S25 Sprut-SD tank destroyer which is based upon the BMD-3:

I've always been impressed by Soviet's/Russian appreciation for commonality in its weapons platforms - be it armour of missiles!!

M.A.D

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2015, 10:58:37 AM »
Cadillac Gage Textron Jaguar:   It had a newly designed turret. The hull top was new. The engine compartment and fuel tanks on the shelves over the tracks were armour-protected. The Soviet-made 100 mm gun was replaced with the American M68 105 mm rifled gun fitted with a thermal sleeve and a Marconi fire control system which was originally developed for the American light tank Stingray was fitted.

I guess this would be the Chinese-designed, commercially successful spiritual successor to the Jaguar......

I'm not quite sure if the main gun is a 125mm gun or just a long-barreled 105mm though.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 02:31:35 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2015, 01:46:46 AM »
Apparently, Ukraine isn't the only country that attempted to make a 120mm NATO derivative of Eastern-bloc tank gun.

(PRC doesn't count, since their 120mm gun is a derivative of the Rheinmetall L/44.)

I've only been able to find pictures for the manually-loaded M-393 designed for T-62, but what interests me is the M-395 that's designed for T-72.  I wonder if the gun still uses a carousel autoloader......

The story also reminds me something I heard online about Russian once attempted to compete for British MBT programme with a version of T-90......

(Actually, Rickshaw, is that you whom I heard it from?  Do you have further information on it?)

=============================================================================

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« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 02:08:21 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: January 20, 2016, 02:57:32 AM »
A while back Trumpeter released this kit:



Well, here are some videos of the IT-1 in action:

https://fat.gfycat.com/BareSlipperyArrowana.mp4
https://youtu.be/dbU5jQZDLaE
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:00:21 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2016, 11:54:54 AM »
Apparently, Ukraine isn't the only country that attempted to make a 120mm NATO derivative of Eastern-bloc tank gun.

(PRC doesn't count, since their 120mm gun is a derivative of the Rheinmetall L/44.)

I've only been able to find pictures for the manually-loaded M-393 designed for T-62, but what interests me is the M-395 that's designed for T-72.  I wonder if the gun still uses a carousel autoloader......

The story also reminds me something I heard online about Russian once attempted to compete for British MBT programme with a version of T-90......

(Actually, Rickshaw, is that you whom I heard it from?  Do you have further information on it?)

=============================================================================

Oh and Merry Christmas for everyone who celebrates Christmas, and Happy Winter Solstice for everyone who doesn't.


It was mentioned in passing in a Jane's book which was published in the early 1990s IIRC.  I read it a long time ago.  Just before the collapse of the fUSSR, when the British Army was looking to have a competition for a replacement for Challenger I (after it's dismal showing in NATO competitions) they received an unsolicited bid from the Soviets for an all ceramic version of their T90 MBT.  It was unique in being all ceramic and also for being considerably harder to penetrate than standard steel armour.  The British were intrigued but allowed the bid to lapse when the fUSSR collapsed and they chose instead the Challenger II.   What it showed was how advanced armour design was at the end of the fUSSR - no Western nation was even contemplating ceramic AFVs at that time.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2016, 01:14:42 PM »
Just before the collapse of the fUSSR, when the British Army was looking to have a competition for a replacement for Challenger I (after it's dismal showing in NATO competitions) they received an unsolicited bid from the Soviets for an all ceramic version of their T90 MBT.  It was unique in being all ceramic and also for being considerably harder to penetrate than standard steel armour.

Would the ceramic armour have worked in smaller panels (in a manner like most ERAs) or larger blocks (in a manner like, say, Enigma or even Sabra addon armour modules)?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2016, 01:22:05 PM »
Just before the collapse of the fUSSR, when the British Army was looking to have a competition for a replacement for Challenger I (after it's dismal showing in NATO competitions) they received an unsolicited bid from the Soviets for an all ceramic version of their T90 MBT.  It was unique in being all ceramic and also for being considerably harder to penetrate than standard steel armour.

Would the ceramic armour have worked in smaller panels (in a manner like most ERAs) or larger blocks (in a manner like, say, Enigma or even Sabra addon armour modules)?

Ceramic armour could work in that way.  In this case though, the entire vehicle hull was to be AIUI manufactured out of ceramic armour and then glued together to create the vehicle.   At the time, there was talk of such a vehicle in the West but little real research had been done.  The way forward for AFVs was purported to be composite armour, molded as a single piece.  The Russians, OTOH had decided to use ceramic, which could be manufactured to a higher hardness than steel.   I had doubts about it but apparently they were working on how to do it at that time.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2016, 01:49:20 PM »
In this case though, the entire vehicle hull was to be AIUI manufactured out of ceramic armour and then glued together to create the vehicle.


Would round shapes ( la T-72 turret) present significant difficulties in terms of structural strength in this scenario?

As one might suspect, I'm attempting to create a mental picture here- T-72 (T-90 was T-72BU, IIRC, before the collapse of the USSR) with a thicker-looking hull, M-395 gun re-engineered with a rifled barrel and redesigned autoloader (to fire HESH and other British projectiles)...... and for some reason, I was reminded of the turret shape of some Chonma-Ho tank variant when I think of Soviet-stype flat-faced turrets:

« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:07:35 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline abtex

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2016, 12:48:17 AM »
Strange things for Soviet and Russian Ideas:
On the Alternative History site -- http://alternathistory.com/
List different subjects on right side.
Alternative tank building -- http://alternathistory.com/taxonomy/alternativnoe-tankostroenie-0

Some that are not (have always like them)
T-35 Tank -- http://alternathistory.com/taxonomy/term/418
T-28 Tank -- http://alternathistory.com/taxonomy/term/75
Need an APC? Based on T-35


Here is some ones take on a T-28 APC:


T-28, T-27, T-26


May help someone or not. But they are here.

Offline abtex

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2016, 12:56:45 AM »
(Do not really know where to post this, please move as need)
There is also "T-35 as the progenitor of American tanks"  -- http://alternathistory.com/t-35-kak-praroditel-amerikanskikh-tankov

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2016, 05:45:49 AM »
These are awesome abtex thank you!!  :-*
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2016, 08:35:15 AM »
In this case though, the entire vehicle hull was to be AIUI manufactured out of ceramic armour and then glued together to create the vehicle.


Would round shapes ( la T-72 turret) present significant difficulties in terms of structural strength in this scenario?


Not really.  The shape, as you note might, though.  I'd expect the turret to be composed of (at least initially) flat plates.  Once they'd worked out how to cast a curved shape, it would look similar to a standard frypan shaped turret.  It maybe composed of individual plates, welded together though, rather than one larger piece.

Quote
As one might suspect, I'm attempting to create a mental picture here- T-72 (T-90 was T-72BU, IIRC, before the collapse of the USSR) with a thicker-looking hull, M-395 gun re-engineered with a rifled barrel and redesigned autoloader (to fire HESH and other British projectiles)...... and for some reason, I was reminded of the turret shape of some Chonma-Ho tank variant when I think of Soviet-stype flat-faced turrets:




That would be a good approximation, I suspect.