Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 920700 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2300 on: August 26, 2019, 06:38:25 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately, this upright V-12 could not accommodate a motor gun. Armament was going to be a challenge.

Actually one could have been incorporated in the same way as the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, in the valley
between the cylinder heads.


12Y


V-1710
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2301 on: August 27, 2019, 05:07:36 AM »
Cheers Brian  :smiley:

Jon: There certainly seems to be plenty of room for a cannon barrel between the cylinder banks:
https://www.darwinaviationmuseum.com.au/wp-content/uploads/allison-v-1710-2-648x486.jpg

I'm guessing that a cannon installation would work best with the V-1710-39's raised thrust line. Obviously, an updraught carburretor would also be needed to clear space for the big gun's breech.
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2302 on: August 28, 2019, 05:13:04 AM »
Cheers Brian  :smiley:

Jon: There certainly seems to be plenty of room for a cannon barrel between the cylinder banks:
https://www.darwinaviationmuseum.com.au/wp-content/uploads/allison-v-1710-2-648x486.jpg

I'm guessing that a cannon installation would work best with the V-1710-39's raised thrust line. Obviously, an updraught carburretor would also be needed to clear space for the big gun's breech.


Yep, the later type offset reduction gear would be required, putting a cannon through
the long-nose C engine with the inline planetary gear reduction gear assembly would
require a hollow crankshaft. Which’d be kinda cool as you’d get a longer barrel and
the potential for a higher muzzle velocity cannon. Of course you also end up having
to relocate the supercharger, possibly to the side as on the DB and Jumo inverted
engines, or maybe lowered or raised. Probably lowered to keep a more compact profile
and not have to muck directly with the camshaft drive, the accessories being easier to
relocate.





edit: these are the images that should have been shown, rather than the Miller 91, dunno how I managed to do that  :-\
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:33:26 AM by jcf »
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2303 on: August 29, 2019, 12:32:20 AM »
BTW, the Armstrong-Whitworth backstory was predicated upon licencing PZL designs to make use of AW's metal construction experience. Here's the operational outcomes (for P.11/24 and a P.23 evolution).

I like this a lot.
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2304 on: August 30, 2019, 07:23:09 AM »
Cheers SBD! I always have fun playing with PZLs  :D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2305 on: September 19, 2019, 09:55:19 AM »
Thanks folks!

As mentioned, the VVJK decided to allocate all available 'war-booty' Klimov M-105 engines to fighter programs. Engines lacking gun synchonization went to Zmaj to re-engine Hawker Hurricanes with worn-out Merlins. The result was the 'Hariken-S'.

[Bottom] A newly refurbished 'Hariken-S' of 35. Grupa, 5. Lovacki Puk/3. Brigada, Leskovac (prior to dispatch to Thessaloniki, Greece). Note that White 7's markings are only partially applied - white paint has yet to be added to the fuselage roundel and the fighter's new, Luftwaffe-style individual aircraft number.

Synchronized Klimovs went to Rogožarski for IK-3/II re-engining and new-production IK-3/III Jastreb (Hawk) fighters. The later was readily distinguishable from early IK-3s by the upper cowling bulges for its synchronized 12,7 mm Breda-SAFAT guns (a third Breda fired through the hollow propeller shaft).

[Top] An IK-3/III Jastreb of 32. Grupa, 2. Lovacki Puk/1. Brigada at Krusevac. Fuselage mottling on 'Red 4' is more extensive than normal (with grey mottling extending into the recognition panels and even forms a 'Spiralschnauze' on the spinner!).

______________________
With the number of IK-3 kits I now have, these definitely tempt me as subjects.  One thought, the IK-3 (and for that matter, the B.135) shares a basic engine with the Dewoitine D.520.  I can't help but wonder if the exhausts from that aircraft would improve the IK-3 (or, again, the B.135).  It's a tempting easy whiff to try.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2306 on: September 20, 2019, 07:04:38 AM »
Thanks Evan, glad you liked 'em. Good idea on your Dewoitine concept  :smiley:  Quickboost does aftermarket D-520 exhausts in 1:72nd and 1:48th.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2307 on: September 20, 2019, 07:15:44 AM »
Thanks Evan, glad you liked 'em. Good idea on your Dewoitine concept  :smiley:  Quickboost does aftermarket D-520 exhausts in 1:72nd and 1:48th.
*chuckle* I know and I'll be buying some to whiff both the B.135 and IK-3, probably in Bulgarian markings since they flew both the D.520 and B.135 (might also see a three-bladed constant speed propeller added to the B.135); if the production facilities were not destroyed, I could see Bulgaria flying IK-3s, too.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2308 on: September 22, 2019, 04:27:20 AM »
Evan: Cool stuff! I love the idea of Bulgaria flying IK-3s (perhaps as replacements for remaining PZL P.24s?).

For the three-bladed constant speed props on those B.135s, maybe Bulgaria sourced some hélice Chauvière 3981 from Vichy as spares for the D.520s? (The original IK-3s had HS props - licensed Hamilton Standards ... Modèle 2010? ... perhaps standardize across the Bulgarian fleet on the Chauvière?)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2309 on: September 26, 2019, 11:08:58 AM »
Cars aren't common on BtS, I know, but I got bit by one those notions that won't leave ...

Construzione Automobili Intermeccanica became known for shoe-horning US V8 running gears into Italian sportscar bodies of original design. Intermeccanica's main problem was finding reliable American partners - including engine suppliers (from Ford selling them seized engines so GM cutting of their supply to protect the Corvette.

When the Italian economy, the owners' of Intermeccanica left Turin for California. There, Frank Reisner started building Porsche 356 replicas out of the family's suburban garage. The Intermeccanica Speedster has a great reputation but, the Porsche replica - compared with earlier designs like the Intermeccanica Apollo, Italia, and Indra - doesn't quite do it for me.

That got me musing on what other options might have been available to the Reisers. I always thought that the Datsun 240Z was a nice car ruined by bodywork that seemed to start rusting on ship coming from Yokohama. So, that means that running gear parts would have been plentiful as rust-bucket 240Zs started to hit the knacker's yards. And I noticed that the size of 240Z and Intermeccanica Italia weren't hugely different:

Measurement   Datsun 240Z   Italia
Wheelbase   2.30 m/90.7 in   2.40 m/94 in
Body Length   4,14 m/163 in   4.38 m/173 in
Body Width   1.62 m/64 in   1.73 m/68 in
Body Height   1,28 m/50.5 in   1.18 m/46 in

So, the wheelbase difference is only 3 inches. To make a Datsun-based Italia, the Italian body design needs to be shortened 10 inches and narrowed 4 inches. (Not too tricky -  I am envisoning Reisner's usual welded-tube chassis and a fibreglass body à la the Speedster.) Assuming that the 240Z windscreen was re-used, the 'Datsun Italia' would also be taller (and less raked in appearance).

Anyway, here's a retouch to show the imagined results. The 'Datsun Italia' is the top view, the original Intermeccanica V8 Italia is on the bottom
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2310 on: September 26, 2019, 02:35:34 PM »
I prefer the look of the original but they both look great! :smiley:
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2311 on: September 27, 2019, 03:35:04 AM »
Cheers Old Wombat. I prefer the original Italia too. The trouble was that US regulations had changed to thwart low-rate automobile production. For small outfits like Intermeccanica, kit cars were the way to go. Reisner chose VW as his donor car, I was thinking that Datsun's rust problems presented an opportunity.

That said, until I did the retouch, I hadn't realized just how upright the 240Z windscreen was. That strongly rake windscreen was one of the features that gave the Italia its look. Oh well  :(
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2312 on: October 07, 2019, 11:56:34 AM »
In July 1939, the UK Air Ministry purchased the sole Martin-Baker MB.2 prototype on behalf of the Australian government. The aircraft was then shipped to Port Melbourne as an engineless airframe. With the assistance of the Aeronautical Research Laboratory, a newly-formed Martin-Baker Aircraft (Australia) Pty. began work on converting the design to suit an RAAF requirement for a modern fighter.

Major modifications involved the substitution of a Pratt & Whitney R-1830 radial engine, the installation of a retractable main undercarriage (brought directly from Curtiss-Wright as was the MBA electric propeller), and the moving forward of the cockpit.

Bottom The partly re-assembled MB.2 prototype with R-1830 S3C4-G engine and Curtiss Electric airscrew installed. Curtiss retractable main gear is also shown as is original tail wheel. Less obvious is the enlarged tail fin and rudder (which was unlikely to have been approved of by designer, James Martin)

Other than the removal of its British serial (P9594) and application of an Australian serial (A38-1), the MB.2's paint scheme is unchanged.

Top The revised 'MBA.2' shown in completed form. Note the primered cowling with revised exhaust stubs and newly-enlarged (and still unpainted) carburettor intake. Not visible is the removal of the gun synchronizing gear.

The electric propeller has now been replaced with a Hamilton Standard hydraulic prop (supplied by de Havilland Australia) fitted with a hub. A replacement tail wheel (taken from a CAC Wirraway) has been installed, made necessary when the original was damaged in a ground handling incident. A radio antenna has also been added.

The MBA.2 flew rather poorly and proceeded no further. Instead, the RAAF contract for a new fighter went to de Havilland Australia for its ADH-1 Dondorn (Brown Falcon).
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2313 on: October 08, 2019, 04:22:44 AM »
Oh yes that looks every bit the business and that shade of green is most pleasing!

You have a very talented eye for colors, aphophenia!

Always a treat to see an update from you.

Brian da Basher

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2314 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:15 AM »
Great job, apophenia! :smiley: 8)


Mind you, I find those triangular tails on Martin-Baker & Boulton-Paul aircraft to be particularly ugly.

If I was an aircraft designer/engineer, they'd be the first things to go! ::)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2315 on: October 08, 2019, 09:26:30 PM »
Nice!

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2316 on: October 08, 2019, 10:11:52 PM »
Nice Stephen  :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Now I've got a visual for my Centaurus powered MB5

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2317 on: October 10, 2019, 04:02:57 AM »
Thanks folks!

Now I've got a visual for my Centaurus powered MB5

Ooo, looking forward to that. I'd wondered about alternative-engine MB.3s but using the MB.5 gets around the ground visibility issues  :smiley:

OW: I know what you mean about Martin's fins and rudders. The upside of a straight-edged empennage (triangular or otherwise) is ease of production. For example, see the Wirraway-to-Harvard evolution. The NA-16 has a fully-curved rudder (as per Wirraway); the NA-36 (BC-1) and NA-49 (Harvard Mk.I had slightly-curved rudders; the NA-64 Yale and later Harvards/AT-6s all had straight-edged, triangular rudders.

Speaking of North American and straight-edged rudders, my next post requires some preliminary background arm-waving ...

The RW Background Bit

North American Aviation developed several single-seat fighter concepts in the late 1930s. A straightforward, short-winged NA-16 derivative project matured as the NA-50 export fighter. This modest little fighter was quickly rejected by potential European combatants. What followed was a much more advanced 'idealized 1938 pursuit' conceived by Chief Designer Edgar Schmued (leading to the P.509). This design followed the latest European trends of multi-gunned fighters powered by liquid-cooled V-12 engines. In this case, that engine was a US Allison V-1710. The most advanced feature was the integration of a NACA laminar-flow aerofoil for the wings.

Another 1938 project was for a more economical export fighter, the NA-53. This unbuilt project was a 'Super NA-50' powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-1830-S3C-G radial and using a similar NACA laminar-flow wing profile. Like the NA-50 before it, the 'advanced' NA-53 was of no interest to potential European customers - even as a second-string fighter. That same wing type was applied to a 1939 stopgap light fighter/fighter-trainer, the Ranger-powered SC-46 (later P-500) project. This too was rejected by the British and even the French (who were generally keen on such 'jockey fighter' concepts).

While Ed Schmued and Chief Engineer Ray Rice worked up such concepts, NAA General Manager 'Dutch' Kindelberger was visiting Europe to meet air force officials and tour aircraft plants. After inspecting the Messerschmitt factory in Germany, Kindelberger returned to the UK. There, he was approached by Air Ministry officials about the possibility of North American Aviation building Supermarine Spitfires to supplement British production. Kindelberger rejected this suggestion based in part on the Spitfire's complicated (and time-consuming) wing structure and partly on NAA's existing factory workload building trainers.

(To be continued ...)
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2318 on: October 10, 2019, 04:10:58 AM »
Thanks folks!

Now I've got a visual for my Centaurus powered MB5

Ooo, looking forward to that. I'd wondered about alternative-engine MB.3s but using the MB.5 gets around the ground visibility issues  :smiley:


I've already done a Sabre engined one, a Sabre VIII to be exact.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 04:12:29 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2319 on: October 10, 2019, 04:47:06 AM »
I've already done a Sabre engined one, a Sabre VIII to be exact.


Yes, nice one Robert !  I remember your Long-Ranger (and loved those markings!)  :smiley:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8367.msg150388#msg150388

Also just very cool keeping Sir James' designs in the Napier family  ;)
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2320 on: October 10, 2019, 10:09:32 PM »
I've already done a Sabre engined one, a Sabre VIII to be exact.


Yes, nice one Robert !  I remember your Long-Ranger (and loved those markings!)  :smiley:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8367.msg150388#msg150388

Also just very cool keeping Sir James' designs in the Napier family  ;)


Fitting a Centaurus from a Sea Fury to the MB5 will fit just as good, I found the fuselage cross-section at the engine bulkhead of the two aircraft was practically the same.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2321 on: October 11, 2019, 04:43:50 AM »
The Whif bit ...

North American and the 'Simplified Spitfire'

Although the Air Ministry was already issuing Specifications for Spitfire replacements, it was understood that these Specs would not bear fruit for some time. By way of challenge, 'Dutch' Kindelberger was asked whether his firm was capable of designing a 'Simplified Spitfire' for the interim. Kindelberger was confident that North American Aviation could indeed devise a 'Simplified Spitfire' in the short term. Discussion then turned to the specifics of such a design.

In the minds of Air Ministry staff, any 'Simplified Spitfire' would need a great deal of commonality with existing service Spitfire Mk.I fighters. This included the 1,030 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin III engine and its DH constant-speed propeller. The cockpit and radio installations must also be unchanged. [1] Armament was also to be unchanged, consisting of eight .303-inch Browning machine guns with a minimum of 300 rounds per gun. General performance was to at least match that of a Supermarine-built Spitfire Mk.I. No other firm requirements were made but value would be assigned to the use of as many standard Spitfire components as possible.

With an agreement in place for the design of an experimental 'Simplified Spitfire', Kindelberger booked passage home to Los Angeles. Long-distance telephone calls had already set the design wheels in motion. Ed Schmued was assigned the task of drafting a design that would allow a Spitfire development to be built at the speeds Kindelberger had witnessed in Germany (and knew that NAA was quite capable of). Rough design work was begun while 'Dutch' returned home with cases of Spitfire drawings copied on microfilm. But, unbeknownst to Kindelberger or Schmued, an even greater gift would soon arrive at the NAA offices at Mines Field, Los Angeles.

In August 1938, 19 Sqn RAF received Spitfire Mk.I K9792 (c/n 6) for operational use from RAF Duxford, Cambridgeshire. Just over a month later, K9792 would be written-off when it flipped over in a landing accident. After damage assessment, the wings, rudder, and cowl was removed for scrapping. The slightly-damaged fuselage was then crated for shipment to NAA where it was to act as a partial pattern airframe. Accompanying K9792 was a sample DH airscrew (to replace the non-running Merlin II's damaged wooden 2-blader). No repair work was undertaken before shipment to the US.

NA-53M - A 'Simplified Spitfire' Takes Shape

By the time that K9792 arrived at San Pedro Bay, work had began on replacement wings. In its crash, K9792's bottom longerons had been distorted by impact around its wing mounting points. This proved a moot point as Ed Schmued had already decided to replace Supermarine's 'bolt-on' separate wing panel approach. Instead, the  uninterrupted, one-piece wing design from the 'Super NA-50' and P.509 projects was to be adapted to the Spitfire. To that end, the damaged portions and much of the rest of K9792's lower fuselage was removed. The intention was to allow quicker assembly and attachment of both wings and a new belly radiator bath (also adapted from the P.509).

Top Ex-K9792 acting as an engineering mock-up for the NA-53M. [2] Note new wing cut-out and belly radiator scoop. The damaged Spitfire vertical tail later formed the basis for a wooden NA-53M tailplane mock-up. [3]

Forming a working mock-up and acting as a prototype of sorts, the revised K9792 would never fly again. Instead, the first 'Simplified Spitfire' to fly was the first production airframe, NA330, which incorporated a number of components raided from K9792 to speed the assembly process. Such was the urgency assigned to the type, that it was ordered into production off the drawing board. Before NA330 was rolled out of NAA's plant at LA in December 1939, the British Purchasing Commission had already order 200 new fighters for the RAF under the name North American Nemesis Mk.I.

Bottom The first North American Aviation NA-53M Nemesis, NA330. This aircraft was flown in full RAF markings (note small US civil experimental registration 'NX-330F' marked below the horizontal tail surfaces).
____________________________

[1] This meaning the bulged Perspex sliding hood and exterior armour-glass windscreen installation as well as mountings for an HF TR9 R/T set (with allowance for future VHF T/R Type 1133 installation).

[2] For unrecorded reasons, the North American Aviation drawing office regarded the 'Simplified Spitfire' as a continuation of their NA-53 sequence. Accordingly, the redesign was assigned the NAA 'Charge Account' number NA-53M (for Merlin).

[3] The NA-53M's squared-off horizontal tails were never applied to the engineering mock-up. When the mock-up was stripped to provide components, hatches, etc. for NA330, the stabilizers and elevators were removed from ex-K9792 for return to the UK.
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2322 on: October 11, 2019, 06:21:29 AM »
Now that has potential for some very interesting future developments as well as some fascinating whiffs.  Beautiful work, Apophenia.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2323 on: October 11, 2019, 10:47:03 AM »
Hmmm!? [where's the "thinks" emoji when you need it?]
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2324 on: October 11, 2019, 02:10:11 PM »
 :icon_alabanza: