Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on March 17, 2012, 02:53:28 AM

Title: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 17, 2012, 02:53:28 AM
Hi folks...and Scooterman,

Here's a thread dedicated to your Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration.

To start you off, here is something a friend provided me yesterday:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69121091@N03/6983511163/#secret3446ba47f2in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/69121091@N03/6983511163/#secret3446ba47f2in/photostream)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 17, 2012, 03:20:23 AM
I thought we had one of those already ;)

Any chance that the RB199 would fit inside of the Skyhawk fuselage?  With or without reheat, it would certainly perk things up. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 17, 2012, 03:27:54 AM
I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread. ;)

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 17, 2012, 03:51:02 AM
I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread. ;)

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?

With thrust reverser gear it might take on the appearance of the Israeli Skyhawks with the IR suppression based on the lengthened exhaust.  At least that would give it the needed room for the diverter apparatus to work without interference. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on March 17, 2012, 04:00:47 PM
A few years ago I had a RAF Skyhawk on the go.

I was using a Fujimi single seater kit with a Quickboost Harrier Gr.5 nose grafted on.

I put the typical RAF blocky RWR antenna on the tail and a bolt on retractable IFR probe similar to the Tornado IDS set up on it.

I kept the kit tailpipe and decided it would take a dry Avon as it's engine.

I had the plan to put 30 mm Aden guns on it and had some BL 755 cluster bombs to hand under it.

Sadly; the nose suffered resin shrinkage and, in a fit of rage, she took a flight across the room.

I had her painted in mid 80s green/grey wraparound and marked up as an 11 Sqn. machine.

I'll see if I still have pics of her somewhere.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on March 17, 2012, 06:56:21 PM
What about a two engined version built around a pair of J-85 engines?

A regards the thrust reverser idea; I'd be inclined to go with the afterburning RB-199, but rig up an internal thrust reverser like in the Saab Viggen rather than the crude external bucket system of the Tornado. it would still get you the coolness of a thrust reverser, but in a more elegant package.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 18, 2012, 01:37:24 AM
I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread. ;)

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?
You'd need a reverser system more like the Viggen's, but no reason it couldn't work.  The RB.199, as with the F404, would also need the necessary structural and systems mods for the AMAD installation ahead of the engine.  Since Singapore did it, it's clearly not a major problem.

One further thought, how about taking the lengthened fuselage of the two-seater and making it a single-seat bird; leaving the emaining volume, depending on how you did the conversion, for additional avionics, additional fuel, or additional ammo.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 18, 2012, 01:39:00 AM
A few years ago I had a RAF Skyhawk on the go.

I was using a Fujimi single seater kit with a Quickboost Harrier Gr.5 nose grafted on.

I put the typical RAF blocky RWR antenna on the tail and a bolt on retractable IFR probe similar to the Tornado IDS set up on it.

I kept the kit tailpipe and decided it would take a dry Avon as it's engine.

I had the plan to put 30 mm Aden guns on it and had some BL 755 cluster bombs to hand under it.

Sadly; the nose suffered resin shrinkage and, in a fit of rage, she took a flight across the room.

I had her painted in mid 80s green/grey wraparound and marked up as an 11 Sqn. machine.

I'll see if I still have pics of her somewhere.
A dry Avon would work as the original engine in the Skyhawk, the J65, is a dry Sapphire.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 18, 2012, 02:41:09 AM
What about a two engined version built around a pair of J-85 engines?

Me likey your thinking!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Scooterman on March 18, 2012, 11:56:38 AM
Real quick thoughts on engines.

Twin J85s wouldn't be much good.  Get about 10k lbs thrust total but don't forget the weight gain with twin engines (plumbing, aero mods, wiring etc)  The Pratt J52-P-408 pushed 11,500lbs, not too shabby.  FYI the F404 in the (T)A-4SUs are 10,400 but better gas milage.

RB199 wouldn't be bad, but without reheat only throws 9500lbs.  And a bit thirsty.  The engine was designed for more of a twin engine application.

M88 from the Rafale is going to give you the same issues with the RB199 but a bit more power 11,200.

If I was going to install a new motor, I'd go F414 from the Superbug.  More power dry (13,000+) with just a tweaks from a F404 installation. 

I guess the RM12 from the Gripen would prolly work just as good as F404.

Oh an thrust reverser.............not going to happen.  WAAAY too heavy a device for the Skyhawks' airframe.  Give me good brakes and a drag chute!

Let me finish by saying the above statements are done with a bit of Scooter knowledge, and LOTS of guesstimating from quickly looking at motor specs online in a very tired state.  By no means take it for granted or gospel!   :P
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 18, 2012, 12:29:53 PM
I agree that a dry RM12 or F414 woiuld be the most straight-forward engine upgrades now.  Still, I could see, depending on the user, either the RB.199 or M88 being fitted for commonality with other aircraft to simplify the logistics "tail".  Now, if we were doing something from back in the sixties, I could see a dry Avon as an alternative on a commonality basis (say, in joint service along side Hunters).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 24, 2012, 10:36:31 AM
How about an A-4 with the side intakes replaced with a nose intake?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 24, 2012, 12:01:11 PM
How about an A-4 with the side intakes replaced with a nose intake?
Why add the extra length of ductwork when you need that volume for other items?  Now, I could see a F-16-style ventral intake.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 24, 2012, 12:06:41 PM
No intelligent thought there...more interested in it for asthetic appeal ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 24, 2012, 12:33:19 PM
No intelligent thought there...more interested in it for asthetic appeal ;)
Understood.  I think a ventral inlet, properly done, could be quite aesthetically appealing but it'd likely be quite the "FOD finder".
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2012, 02:58:20 AM
What about a dedicated air defence A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on October 07, 2012, 03:50:13 AM
What about a dedicated air defence A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...

IIRC the USN had a trial with some A-4Cs with nose radomes off ?Cougers for operation from the escort carriers. I always thought it was a good idea

Edit - just checked - 3 Anti-submarine Fighter Squadrons  VSF-1,2, and 3 had A-4s. They tried the nose off an F-11 Tiger on an A-4B (BuNo145002) in 1966 but it wasn't successful.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on October 07, 2012, 04:00:38 AM
What about a dedicated air defense A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...


IIRC the USN had a trial with some A-4Cs with nose radomes off ?Cougars for operation from the escort carriers. I always thought it was a good idea


Would be a good chance to use the VFS squadrons!!!!  They were small squadrons formed of A-4s for the Essex-class CVS carriers during their Nam deployments IIRC.  They were replaced by F-8s before being completed disbanded when the CVSs were decommed.  They were VSF-1 (Warhawks), 76 (Fleur-de-lis), and 86 (Gators) with DETs formed for each CVS.  Always like the look of VSF-1s A-4s.

(http://178.83.198.61/wings/21-USNavy/Douglas-A-4/VSF-1-05.png)

See the bottom of this page for their insignias.
http://bluejacket.com/usn_avi_insig_v-qrs.html (http://bluejacket.com/usn_avi_insig_v-qrs.html)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on October 07, 2012, 04:09:26 AM
Yep like this idea - dam thats another one on the to do list!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on October 07, 2012, 08:34:31 PM
Been thinking of all the small aiirforces and A-4 users that would have found this useful. Also it would have been in competition with the F-5 as I think that was origionally ment for the USNs small escort carriers?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on October 08, 2012, 01:56:42 AM
USAF SEA night scheme.

RCAF Tigermeet

Central American faded scheme, random country of choice

Khemedi

And what might be considered a Scooter heresy:  alternate wing planforms.  Swept, scimitar, kinked delta, etc.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 08, 2012, 10:36:08 AM
Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Caveman on October 11, 2012, 04:40:11 AM
start with something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 11, 2012, 04:57:06 AM
Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.

That would make sense for a '80s/'90s version.  I was really thinking something more for the '60s/'70s though.  Maybe give it the AN/APQ-153 radar from the F-5E? Arm it with IR and SARH AIM-9s?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 11, 2012, 05:01:20 AM
Something for those aficiandos amongst us...looking at you Scoorterman! ::)

(http://a4skyhawk.org/sites/a4skyhawk.org/files/images/imported/common/sa-patch08-200.png) (http://a4skyhawk.org)

Click on image to go to website.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 22, 2012, 10:39:04 AM
start with something like this?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk[/url])

The A-4Kahu had a similar, but not identical equipment fit (different RHAW gear for one thing).  Still, either would be a good basis to start from.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 22, 2012, 10:41:40 AM
Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.

That would make sense for a '80s/'90s version.  I was really thinking something more for the '60s/'70s though.  Maybe give it the AN/APQ-153 radar from the F-5E? Arm it with IR and SARH AIM-9s?
That would work, though you might look at upgrading the SARH AIM-9s to a later version Sidewinder airframe.  For the time period, the engines remain as I suggested, though I wonder how a dry J79 would fare.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on March 17, 2013, 07:50:54 AM
Because, contrary to popular belief, there just aren't enough canard-equipped aircraft to go around.  ;)
The first one is "from the box", so to speak, while the second one has a greater chord.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/douglas-a-4-canard-skyhawk_zpsc74a8aa2.png)
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/douglas-a-4-canard-skyhawk-bigger-wing_zps7a232924.png)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 17, 2013, 07:55:26 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Scooterman on March 18, 2013, 10:58:56 AM
Those look like mini-Viggens!   :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on March 30, 2013, 01:22:20 AM
Only 4 EA-4F's appear to have been built.   Was there a foreign market for them in smaller air forces?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on March 30, 2013, 02:10:53 AM
How about converting one to an RAF-style side-by-side two-seater using Hunter T.7 parts?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 30, 2013, 03:54:59 AM
Only 4 EA-4F's appear to have been built.   Was there a foreign market for them in smaller air forces?


I suppose given their training focus they weren't ever really considered.  Mind you a dedicated EA-4 with say a pair of AN/ALQ-99 pods (see below) might be interesting to see:

(http://wiki.scramble.nl/images/1/1e/20060221_cvn71_usnv_t_s_jvb_mt01_4103_alq99.jpg)


Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on March 30, 2013, 04:00:11 AM
Quote
I suppose given their training focus they weren't ever really considered.  Mind you a dedicated EA-4 with say a pair of AN/ALQ-99 pods (see below) might be interesting to see:


That's right where I was going with the TA-4F and was presuming the aircraft would require two crew.   If only one, however, is needed...... :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 30, 2013, 05:17:14 AM
Daryl mentions EA-4F and I am thinking immediately of a Skyhawk in markings for the Spanish Navy which is not such a bad idea when you think about it.  Spanish Navy is given an Essex class CV to support their NATO commitment. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 30, 2013, 05:27:40 AM
Definitely agree re two seater.  Maybe something based on the OA-4M with lots of bumps etc...

DAMN YOU Daryl!!!  Now I have this urge to do this.... >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on March 30, 2013, 05:30:19 AM
 ;D

Go for it! 

---------------------------------


Maybe the Skyhawk sometime should be the subject of a year long, single type spurious theme build seeing how everyone here seems to be rather the busy type.

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on March 30, 2013, 08:14:01 AM
And what might be considered a Scooter heresy:  alternate wing planforms.  Swept, scimitar, kinked delta, etc.

The shoulder-mounted intakes are rather remeniscent of the L-39 Albatross so how about an A-4 with straight tapered wings and tip tanks? Ouragan wings might be about the right size and shape. For justification, how about giving it lots of high-lift devices, rough-field gear and making it an Army CAS version?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 30, 2013, 10:02:45 AM
Interesting...maybe we need some drawings.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 31, 2013, 03:34:33 PM
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on April 04, 2013, 05:55:04 PM
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Nice!! Although an F404 would probably suffice - lighter and smaller!!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 04, 2013, 06:01:41 PM
Dimensionally they are essentially identical.  The F414 weighs a little more but it's increased thrust compensates for this IMHO.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 04, 2013, 08:01:58 PM
Just a silly thought: since the A-4's nickname is the Scooter, how about doing one up like a Mod's Vespa, with a few dozen mirrors, lights, badges and mascots and a Who or soul-music inspired custom paint job?  ;D

(http://www.scooterhype.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mods-2.jpg)

from here: http://www.scooterhype.com/2012/05/30/top-10-classic-scooter-modifications/ (http://www.scooterhype.com/2012/05/30/top-10-classic-scooter-modifications/)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on April 10, 2013, 11:03:51 AM
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on April 10, 2013, 11:34:26 AM
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

Longer and considerably greater diameter.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: AGRA on April 10, 2013, 02:31:19 PM
Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

What’s inside the radome is just the antenna. Most of the radar is in black boxes behind it. In the case of the Kahu upgrade they used the F-16’s APG-66 radar but to fit the outer mould line of the Skyhawk they reduced the size of the antenna. In the case of the FA-2 upgrade of the Sea Harrier being that the OEM was on hand and the RN had a lot more funds and resources to play with than the RNZAF they decided to change the outer mould line of the aircraft with a bulbous radome to accommodate the increased size of the ideal antenna for Blue Vixen over the previous Blue Fox. While this enabled improved performance it increased risk by potentially disturbing the aircraft’s aerodynamics and the air flow to the intakes. This was a risk the RNZAF was unwilling to take so accepted a decreased antenna size to not change the Skyhawk’s aerodynamics.

The Skyhawk could be fitted with the Blue Vixen radar but like the APG-66 it would entail a reduction in antenna size. This will in turn reduce the antenna gain of the radar and therefore sensitivity and range. Blue Vixen performance was closely tied to the AIM-120A missile and reducing the antenna gain could impact AMRAAM engagement range. However if the objective of putting Blue Vixen in Skyhawks was to obtain an all-important two seat mission systems trainer (RN used Hunters for this role) then you could still impart skills in systems operations but not get the most out of tactical training.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 10, 2013, 05:38:49 PM
How about an Italian A-4M instead of the AMX?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 11, 2013, 12:27:32 AM
Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

What’s inside the radome is just the antenna. Most of the radar is in black boxes behind it. In the case of the Kahu upgrade they used the F-16’s APG-66 radar but to fit the outer mould line of the Skyhawk they reduced the size of the antenna. In the case of the FA-2 upgrade of the Sea Harrier being that the OEM was on hand and the RN had a lot more funds and resources to play with than the RNZAF they decided to change the outer mould line of the aircraft with a bulbous radome to accommodate the increased size of the ideal antenna for Blue Vixen over the previous Blue Fox. While this enabled improved performance it increased risk by potentially disturbing the aircraft’s aerodynamics and the air flow to the intakes. This was a risk the RNZAF was unwilling to take so accepted a decreased antenna size to not change the Skyhawk’s aerodynamics.

The Skyhawk could be fitted with the Blue Vixen radar but like the APG-66 it would entail a reduction in antenna size. This will in turn reduce the antenna gain of the radar and therefore sensitivity and range. Blue Vixen performance was closely tied to the AIM-120A missile and reducing the antenna gain could impact AMRAAM engagement range. However if the objective of putting Blue Vixen in Skyhawks was to obtain an all-important two seat mission systems trainer (RN used Hunters for this role) then you could still impart skills in systems operations but not get the most out of tactical training.
This suggests that this might be a ready application of the AN/APG-67 which was tailored to fit the F-20's nose and is now fitted to the Korean A-50.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 11, 2013, 03:15:28 AM
What would a suitable nose profile then be?   
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 11, 2013, 03:26:15 AM
I would tend for something akin to the radome on the A-4K KAHU's:

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/modern/182044d1320249197t-a4ks-4k-thread-copy-nz6215-iiii.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/modern/182049d1320249999t-a4ks-4k-thread-copy-4s-iii.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/modern/182050d1320250060t-a4ks-4k-thread-copy-nz6217-i.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/modern/182051d1320250090t-a4ks-4k-thread-copy-nz6251-i.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 11, 2013, 03:40:42 AM
I'd have to check between F-20 and A-4 kits, but I suspect the A-4Kahu radome would work just fine.  If Im not mistaken, the A-4AR uses a very similar shape (well, it does use the same radar).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 11, 2013, 03:47:43 AM
Yep.  Just grey:

(http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2009-9/5/60698.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on April 11, 2013, 06:38:58 PM
What about a dedicated air defence A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...

IIRC the USN had a trial with some A-4Cs with nose radomes off ?Cougers for operation from the escort carriers. I always thought it was a good idea

Edit - just checked - 3 Anti-submarine Fighter Squadrons  VSF-1,2, and 3 had A-4s. They tried the nose off an F-11 Tiger on an A-4B (BuNo145002) in 1966 but it wasn't successful.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2013, 01:55:16 AM
Hmmm...interesting.  Maybe do an updated, dedicated ASW variant...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 12, 2013, 02:09:51 AM
Quote
Hmmm...interesting.  Maybe do an updated, dedicated ASW variant

Just another reason for another TA-4F kit.   Underwing Anti-FloatyThing Greeblies.  Mmmmm ;D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2013, 02:33:22 AM
I was thinking more of a OA-4M - lots of room for extra equipment + Underwing Anti-FloatyThing Greeblies...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2013, 02:33:59 AM
Random Idea:  Norwegian A-4 in winter camo + Penguin ASMs...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 12, 2013, 04:53:59 AM
SA-4M anti-floaty things version with torpedos from SV-22 kit.  make it an anti-underwater-floaty things version with a centerline store of a buddy refueling pod modified to deploy and stow a MAD sensor.  I can see one of these working with a Brazilian S-2T as a hunter-killer team.  Alternatively, a modernized one with dry F404/RM12/F414 doing the same with a SV-22.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on April 12, 2013, 08:02:01 AM
I was thinking more of a OA-4M - lots of room for extra equipment + Underwing Anti-FloatyThing Greeblies...

Agree!!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 12, 2013, 09:54:43 AM
 My rationale for the TA-4F:   I like the 1:48 Hasegawa kit and can add dorsal, nasal, lateral, caudal, and ventral greeblies partly from kit components, donor kits, and Evergreen stock more easily than finding and rescribing the Monogram OA-4M. 


Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 12, 2013, 10:52:11 AM
Could Penguins ride beneath a -B or would theY need something like a  -M or Kahu?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: AGRA on April 12, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Could Penguins ride beneath a -B or would theY need something like a  -M or Kahu?

Penguin was designed to replace the Bullpup and use existing Bullpup interfaces so it’s probably very likely it could have been used by the A-4B. But you would not be able to get the advantage of its all weather use, degree of target discrimination and programmable courses without a radar and INS based nav attack system (like in the F-104G it was designed for). But potentially you could use it like a Bullpup with a bit more range (18 vs 10 NM) and fire and forget and sea skimming attack. Significant advantages.

So in Whiff world you could have the pre Junta Peron government of Argentina buying a license or a block of them for Air Force use and provide a significant counter to some other Whiff world strengthening of British air defences in the Falklands War. So you’ve got AEW and Sea Cat 2 well we’ve got Skyhawks with Penguins and so on.

A quick check of the Flight International archive to see if Kongsberg had tried to market the Penguin for Skyhawks didn’t turn up anything. But that the Penguin via BAC was strongly considered by the SAAF in 1970 when the then new UK conservative govt. announced in would allow maritime use only weapons sales to South Africa.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2013, 02:19:24 AM
So in Whiff world you could have the pre Junta Peron government of Argentina buying a license or a block of them for Air Force use and provide a significant counter to some other Whiff world strengthening of British air defences in the Falklands War. So you’ve got AEW and Sea Cat 2 well we’ve got Skyhawks with Penguins and so on.

Hmmm...interesting.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2013, 01:42:13 PM
Aéronavale A-4(FN) with Agave radar in nose and Exocet missile on centreline.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 22, 2013, 04:01:17 AM
TA-4x with two extended range Sea Eagle missiles.   Non-American service.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 22, 2013, 04:49:47 AM
TA-4x with two extended range Sea Eagle missiles.   Non-American service.
Definitely need a drop tank on the centerline.  By "extended range" do you mean "with a booster added" or "lengthened for greater fuel tankage" since the Sea Eagle uses a jet engine?

Of course, the same configuration in JASDF service carrying two ASM-2's or extended range versions thereof instead of the extended range Sea Eagles.  'Twould look good in the same blue scheme as F-2's use.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 22, 2013, 05:03:36 AM
Yep.   Centerline drop tank.   Lengthened for greater fuel capacity.   Had thought of placing them in the Mediterranean Sea for control of communist forces, perhaps in Greek use or some Alternate African mapline.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 22, 2013, 05:27:44 AM
Yep.   Centerline drop tank.   Lengthened for greater fuel capacity.   Had thought of placing them in the Mediterranean Sea for control of communist forces, perhaps in Greek use or some Alternate African mapline.
Well, if things had gone differently several centuries before the Christian Era (say, Aeneas and Dido had remained on good terms and a Rome-Carthage axis and alliance had developed),  perhaps in the service of the Carthaginian Republic?  This country would encompass much of what we consider North Africa and would definitely be a long-time power.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on May 27, 2013, 10:37:59 AM
Just saw this posted over on Secret Projects: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19573.0.html (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19573.0.html)

Quote
Found this drawing in "Douglas A-4 Skyhawk" by Jim Winchester.  Drawing dated Aug. 28, 1973.  Very little information is provided and the book states not much is known about this, no designation number is provided. Engine used was J52-P408 vs. J52-P8 used in A-4F.  Wing span approx. 55ft.  On station time approx. 3.2 hours. 


(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/A-4Skyhawk-ExtendedWingVersion.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/CliffyB/media/A-4Skyhawk-ExtendedWingVersion.jpg.html)

Suddenly got an idea for an all black high altitude photo bird as well as a baby A-10 full of cluster bombs and rocket pods.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2013, 02:06:14 AM
Interesting...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 13, 2013, 07:43:13 PM
Could probably do that with a 1/72nd Skyhawk and the Tamiya 1/100th Viggen....
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on June 13, 2013, 08:44:30 PM
Those look like mini-Viggens!   :)

Did someone talked about mini-Viggens?
([url]http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww37/jmsfbip/DeltaScooter-JASDF.jpg[/url])



Forget the Viggen-type intergrations
What about a simple 'Kfir' canard-type integration into the basic Skyhawk (especially that of Israeli Air Force Skyhawks!!)

Skyhawk with canards!!
Greater lift, without need of increasing main wing area!
Better manoeuvrability (important for those navy's operating it from earlier gen aircraft carrier)
Better angles of attack!
Slower landing speed!
Better STOL performance!

I like it!!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 14, 2013, 12:55:28 AM
Forget the Viggen-type intergrations
What about a simple 'Kfir' canard-type integration into the basic Skyhawk (especially that of Israeli Air Force Skyhawks!!)

Skyhawk with canards!!
Greater lift, without need of increasing main wing area!
Better manoeuvrability (import for those navy's operating it from earlier gen aircraft carrier)
Better angles of attack!
Slower landing speed!
Better STOL performance!

I like it!!

M.A.D

You might get some "interesting" votex interactions over the tailplane with high-mounted canards (i.e. on the top of the air intakes). What might work is a low, fixed  canard in the position of the gun blast deflectors, whose tip-vortex re-energises the longest-chord bit of the wing, and at high AoA it would be almost like a fixed leading edge slot....
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 14, 2013, 01:48:05 AM
How about high-mounted canards in conjunction with a change to low-mounted tailplanes?  I quite agree that high-mounted canards and tailplanes on teh vertical tail are going to have "interesting", and likely not beneficial, interactions.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on July 29, 2013, 08:01:34 AM
One of the criticisms leveled at the Monogram A-4E/F kit is that the clear canopy parts are misshapen being to squat.   It's most obvious when one looks at the windscreen framing.   But given the generally inexpensive nature of the kit, its relative ease of building, and today's world of restricted luxury time, it just seems like a great kit to redo its ''face'' and put an armored, much more squared up windscreen.   Yes, it would be shorter than the Mike but that's just fine.   Scab on some external armor like one saw on the Skyraider and Skoshi Tigers, do a light duty rescribe and toss it into either USAF or US Army service in Vietbam. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 04, 2013, 04:50:26 AM
Its a fake, but still might get some heart beating faster... ;)

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9678/copiadecutawayyperfildo.jpg)

Click on it to see larger view
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Scooterman on August 04, 2013, 07:23:41 AM
WHIFGASM!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 04, 2013, 08:09:24 AM
I thought you might approve...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on August 04, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Damian on August 04, 2013, 05:42:53 PM
Its a fake, but still might get some heart beating faster... ;)

([url]http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9678/copiadecutawayyperfildo.jpg[/url])

Click on it to see larger view


*right click, save* guess whcih will be the next profile?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 05, 2013, 06:07:43 AM
Very nice, but it looks like he's still got a diverter plate on it instead of going with a diverterless intake like the F-35 and others have.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 05:56:01 AM
A different sort of Skyhawk... ;)

(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/072/c/1/swiftsparrow_the_a_4_skyhawk_by_kirovrampager-d4sn1f9.png)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 05:56:35 AM
I wonder...could we do a VTOL or STOVL AV-4 Skyhawk?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 10, 2013, 06:42:04 PM
I wonder...could we do a VTOL or STOVL AV-4 Skyhawk?

Might it be possible to rotate the centre fuselage 180 deg to get a high wing, giving space for a Harrier-style engine?

Alternatively/easier, could you graft an A-4's forward fuselage, wings and tail surfaces onto a Harrier to get much the same effect.

For STOL, how about a terminating the fuselage with a 2D vectoring nozzle level with the wing trailing edge than having a twin-boom back end?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 03:20:46 AM
What if one took a two seat variant and turned the rear seat into an engine bay with say 1 or 2 small lift jets mounted Yak-38 style and then also give the standard J-52 the tilting exhaust of the original A-6 (see below)?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/YA2F-1_tilting_pipes_NAN6-60.jpg)

This wouldn't be VTOL necessarily but one could potentially get a credible Super STOL version.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on August 11, 2013, 12:07:22 PM
As little as the Skyhawk is, wouldn't a ZELL system work for non-Navy service?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 12:11:55 PM
That's just taking the easy way out...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 11, 2013, 12:15:33 PM
Only problem with extra lift engines in place of the aft cockpit of a two-seat A-4 is that they are going to guzzle fuel and you'd almost have to do an inflight refueling soon after takeoff.  I could see canards and a deflecting tailpipe for stol operations but you'd need a larger airframe for vstol operations.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 12:40:29 PM
There you go again with your practicality... ;)

You are right though.  Maybe give it permanent external tanks...or also designate it a NASA trial.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 11, 2013, 12:47:35 PM
Integrated wing tanks similar to the Bucc? ???

Or conformal tanks like the F-16? ::)

:-\

Guy
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 12:50:54 PM
I was thinking underwing jugs like the Skyhawk  ;)...just permanently fitted:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/A4C_VA146_1964.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 11, 2013, 01:38:43 PM
I like the idea of a NASA testbed aircraft and if you're using lift engines, I'd be tempted to go with the conformal tanks as the underwing tanks are going to catch quite a thermal load close to the ground.  On the other hand, replace the J52 with a suitably more powerful core and use two shaft-driven liftfans sized to fit that area (say, a flying technology testbed for the X-35/F-35 effort).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 01:40:39 PM
I like.  Maybe a F414 in non after burning config.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 01:42:46 PM
Maybe move the tanks to an overwing station?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 11, 2013, 01:46:25 PM
Maybe move the tanks to am overwing station?

That'd work.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 11, 2013, 01:47:59 PM
I like.  Maybe a F414 in non after burning config.
I was thinking of a straight turbojet version of the F118 core to insure adequate power for the fans.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on August 11, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
First impression is incease tank size to be pontoons for Skyhawk seaplane.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 11, 2013, 02:01:55 PM
First impression is incease tank size to be pontoons for Skyhawk seaplane.

VTOL seaplane? :-\

I prefer the conformal tank option with a modified intake layout & an avionics hump for all the displaced internal electronics. Gives more fuel but leaves hardpoints available for ordnance & creates less drag. ;)

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 11, 2013, 04:53:03 PM
If it's going to be a NASA test bed, rather than a service aircraft, why not just stretch it? Put a plug in behind the cockpit with lift fans/engines*, and a plug behind the engine core that puts a clang-box thrust deflector in the jet pipe. Have the bottom/inside surface of the wing tanks covered with that "pebble-dash" coating they put on USN bombs to make them more fire-resistant. It'd be draggy as hell, but it's only a testbed, right?

* You could used the lift fans/nozzles that you liberated when making an ArtModel MiG-23PD non-STOL, of course.... >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 11, 2013, 05:26:04 PM
Why not a twin engine variant with the tilting exhausts and lift engines between the air intakes behind the cockpit for STOVL and extra fuel instead of lift jets for the CTOL.  I imagine a rear fuselage profile similar to the F-5 series.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 11, 2013, 09:36:57 PM
First impression is incease tank size to be pontoons for Skyhawk seaplane.


Skyhawks with stuck lanfing gear have actually been successfully landed (on land) on those wing tanks, so that's not an idea without merit!

(http://a4skyhawk.org/sites/a4skyhawk.org/files/images/imagecache/gallery-display/154908h2.jpg)

And this is only on the little ones: somebody put one down on the big ones and didn't even bang the nose, but I can't find the pics... This one is on big tanks but has crucnhed them harder than the one I recall seeing:

(http://a4skyhawk.org/sites/a4skyhawk.org/files/images/imagecache/gallery-display/142113.jpg)

This all leads to an interesting thought: you know that rough-field Scooter the US Army played with that had twin main wheels in ugly, draggy fairings? Well how about a re-engineered Skyhawk with permanently fitted "landing beams" in the drop tank positions? The top half of each beam would sit conformally under the wing, and the bottom half, carrying a line of small wheels in it, would retract up against it. The former undercarriage bays could be turned into integral tankage (mains) and avionics (nose) and although you'd lose the two wing hardpoints, you'd be able to put a lot more hardware under the fuselage.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 11, 2013, 09:39:00 PM
I like the idea of a NASA testbed aircraft and if you're using lift engines, I'd be tempted to go with the conformal tanks as the underwing tanks are going to catch quite a thermal load close to the ground.  On the other hand, replace the J52 with a suitably more powerful core and use two shaft-driven liftfans sized to fit that area (say, a flying technology testbed for the X-35/F-35 effort).

How about replacing the undercarriage doors with big, inward-opening panels that act like LIDs, capturing the refected up-thrust from the ground and protecting the underwing stores at the same time?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 11, 2013, 09:40:43 PM
(http://a4skyhawk.org/sites/a4skyhawk.org/files/images/ca4f-concept_vatche-mitilian.jpg)

From Vatche Mitilian, photo and text concerning Douglas proposal for Canada.
 The CA-4F was a proposed two seat attack variant based upon the A-4F. It would have had seven hardpoints, and although it resembled the OA-4M, the CA-4F would have had a conformal fuel tank on top where the OA-4M had the avionics "hump".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEP 1964:
 Story written shortly after the Tonkin Gulf Incident 02 AUG 1964, source unknown.
 
HMCS Bonaventure, a 19,000 ton light fleet Aircraft Carrier (British Majestic Class), and also know as "The Bonnie" and "Club 22", was Canada's last Aircraft carrier. Commissioned in 1957, the "Bonaventure" was configured with an angled flight deck and a steam catapult. Her Air Wing flew F2H-3 "Banshees", Grumman CS-2F "Trackers" and "Sea King" helicopters.
 VF-870 and 871 flew the "Banshee" for fleet air defense.
 HMCS Bonaventure was de-commissioned in 1970.
 Images above from W. Mutza.
 
Another source for information on the RCN consideration of the Skyhawk follows:
 HMCS Bonaventure Operations 1964:
 "After leaving Cyprus, the ship began to operate aircraft enroute Norfolk, Virginia with brief stops at Malta and Gibraltar. Canada, at this time, was interested in a replacement for the F2H-3 BANSHEEs and were looking at the Douglas A4E SKYHAWK and the Ling-Temco-Vought A-7 CORSAIR II with a minor modification was useable. The Douglas/USN people hoped that they could also sell the A4E to the Indian Navy but after flight deck trials, landing trials etc all of which were most successful and despite the fact that BONAVENTURE could have carried and operated 25 of these aircraft no purchase was made of the A4E. But the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) bought and successfully operated A4E’s off a sister ship of the BONAVENTURE. (The Canadian Armed Forces later had an opportunity to buy A4E’s but opted to build the Northrop/Canadair CF 5A/B in Canada instead)."
 Quoted from the web site "Canadian Aviation Museum" http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/pdf/Carriers.PDF (http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/pdf/Carriers.PDF)
 




From Here : http://a4skyhawk.org/content/canada-skyhawk-proposal (http://a4skyhawk.org/content/canada-skyhawk-proposal)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on August 12, 2013, 03:18:46 AM
I have heard of an idea where the electronics are miniaturised so the "hump" isn't needed for them and is replaced by a fuel tank. I did a Kiwi Navy one some time back
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 13, 2013, 09:40:14 AM
If it's going to be a NASA test bed, rather than a service aircraft, why not just stretch it? Put a plug in behind the cockpit with lift fans/engines*, and a plug behind the engine core that puts a clang-box thrust deflector in the jet pipe. Have the bottom/inside surface of the wing tanks covered with that "pebble-dash" coating they put on USN bombs to make them more fire-resistant. It'd be draggy as hell, but it's only a testbed, right?

* You could used the lift fans/nozzles that you liberated when making an ArtModel MiG-23PD non-STOL, of course.... >:D
Considering that I'm doing one such, with canards "liberated" from a Kfir kit and modified in plan to look more "Mikoyan", that's not an impossibility.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on August 22, 2013, 06:54:01 AM
Quick question for you Scooter nuts; which version(s) were nuclear capable?  Were they capable from the outset or did they have to wait?  Did we export any nuclear capable versions?  I highly doubt we did but I want to make sure.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 22, 2013, 07:49:30 AM
Quick question for you Scooter nuts; which version(s) were nuclear capable?  Were they capable from the outset or did they have to wait?  Did we export any nuclear capable versions?  I highly doubt we did but I want to make sure.
All were nuclear capable.  In the case of the A-4 and other aircraft all that was required was a stores pylon that had 14.0" or 30.0" suspension lugs and the ability to hang the store.  Nothing special involved since the later weapons all had integral cores or mechanisms that allowed the core to be inserted into the weapon in flight without human involvement.  The ability to deliver the weapon was determined by the special stores panel in the cockpit that enabled arming the weapon and the ability to release the weapon in the desired delivery mode (high altitude drop, LABS, or lay down).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 22, 2013, 07:52:10 AM
"Nuclear capable" is largely a matter of a few black boxes and a bit of wiring if you've got enough weight capacity for the actual nuke. My understanding is that all USN Skyhawks were nuclear capable right from the start. I imagine that classified black boxes were removed from export aircraft, but I don't know the details.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on August 22, 2013, 09:54:15 AM
OK cool!  Thanks guys!

One FAA A-4C with a Red Beard coming up  8)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on August 23, 2013, 12:08:20 AM
Looked at the Hasegawa TA-4J's extended fuselage and thought of converting it to a long-fuselage single seater.     :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 23, 2013, 01:33:59 AM
Looked at the Hasegawa TA-4J's extended fuselage and thought of converting it to a long-fuselage single seater.     :)
I've got one of their TA-4/A-4 "Blue Angels" kits with the same intention.  Thinking of the single cockpit where the aft cockpit is on the two seater and a larger avionics bay in front of it.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on August 23, 2013, 01:54:35 AM
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.   
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 23, 2013, 01:58:07 AM
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.

that works as well.  I'm going more for avionics without the "bump" than extra fuel.  Both are valid approaches and I'll look forward to seeing your variation.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 23, 2013, 03:27:52 PM
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.

that works as well.  I'm going more for avionics without the "bump" than extra fuel.  Both are valid approaches and I'll look forward to seeing your variation.

You could, also, set your pilot forward (giving him better forward visibility) & put the avionics behind him.

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on August 27, 2013, 06:30:00 AM
One FAA A-4C with a Red Beard coming up  8)

Gentlemen, question(s) for you Scooter and/or British aircraft nuts.  If the FAA were to acquire A-4s in the 1950's what changes would they have made to them, specifically, external changes IE antennae, aerials, sensors, fittings, etc...  I'm not all that familiar with the eccentricities of British aircraft of the era.  I want the FAA Scooter to be believable and not just an A-4 in a different pain scheme  ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 08:46:30 AM
Further to Cliffy's question, what we're considering is basically an A-4C, so it'll have a small radar (probably the original US one) in the nose, and no spine hump.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 27, 2013, 08:54:41 AM
Since the J65 is a license-built Sapphire, would FAA A-4C's use that or an Avon for compatibility with the Sea Vixen and Scimitar?  Would it make any external difference?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 09:50:35 AM
Heh - good spot. They start out intending to use Sapphires but by the time they're being built, the  Avon 200-series with Sapphire-derived mods is out, so they end up with non-afterburning Avons for compatibility as you suggest. Since the Avon and the Sapphire were installationally interchangeable in several platforms, I don't think there'd be any external differences for the Skyhawk.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 27, 2013, 09:55:32 AM
Later version/rebuild with dry 300 series Avons and an equipment upgrade?  I could see a LRMTS being fitted later on, very similar to what was fitted to first generation Harriers.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 10:06:35 AM
Well in this case, the main purpose of the A-4s is chucking Red Beards at Sverdlovs (Buccaneer substitute for small carriers, basically), and the time-frame is 1958 to 1975, when they get replaced by something else, so it's really an early 1960s anti-ship/tactical nuclear avionics fit that we're looking at.

Question: I know the A-4C had an AN/APG-53A radar, but what was this set's actual capability? Was it just a ranging set or did it have a surface search function?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on August 27, 2013, 10:31:27 AM
Here's some food for thought, as well as some discussion on radar possibilities:

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k (http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 27, 2013, 10:35:06 AM
From the description on Wikipedia as a fire control radar, I would presume ranging only.  It's successor, from the A-4E on, the AN/APQ-145 did have a mapping mode which I'd reckon could include sea search.

As upgraded A-4's came into FAA service, I could see older ones being converted to a tactical role with the LRMTS.  I could also see the wings being remanufactured to add the outboard hardpoints of later models (much as was done with the A-4PTM and A-4S).  I'm thinking that you'd need to reduce the outboard sweep to also add wingtip Sidewinder, or equivalent, rails and I'm just sure what that'd do to the aerodynamics and handling.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 07:40:39 PM
Here's some food for thought, as well as some discussion on radar possibilities:

[url]http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k[/url] ([url]http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k[/url])


From there, this sounds promising:

Quote
The AN/APG-53A is well described – something like a half dozen pages of descriptions and illustrations.

The radar is small, but of conventional configuration – ie nose radome mounted dish, with electronics between the dish and the forward firewall. That in itself is a big thing, its successor in the A4M is a downward looking flat plate, the nose position going to a laser seeker. The equivalent in the RAAF Mirages, of roughly the same vintage, was also downward looking.

The dish scans in azimuth, but only +10 up, and a slightly higher range down.

It has three modes, search, with a 40nm range and two range scales on the display, terrain avoidance – scans the terrain and presents a visual image for all weather navigation, and bomb aiming. It also projects the TV display from the Bulpup, if you’re a bulpup kind of A4.


"Search with a 40nm range" sounds good enough to me: I think we stick with the AN/APG-53A.

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 07:50:01 PM
As upgraded A-4's came into FAA service, I could see older ones being converted to a tactical role with the LRMTS.  I could also see the wings being remanufactured to add the outboard hardpoints of later models (much as was done with the A-4PTM and A-4S).  I'm thinking that you'd need to reduce the outboard sweep to also add wingtip Sidewinder, or equivalent, rails and I'm just sure what that'd do to the aerodynamics and handling.

In my scenario:

The RN becomes dissatisfied with having two specialised aircraft on it's small carrier decks and replaces both the Skyhawks and the fighters with a multi-role type in the mid-1970s. It's not a big fleet (probably under 100 aircraft to start with and then minus losses), but you might see them selling it wholesale to either the RAF (the timing would be about right for the boost in CAS/BAI types required by NATO's new Flexible Response strategy), or another land or sea operator.

The RN Skyhawks have five pylons from the start: it's the RN requirement for flexibility that actually drives this mod through earlier than IRL.

The problem with wingtip Sidewinders is that the Skyhawk's wing doesn't fold. That might not be an issue on a USN supercarrier, but anyone operating from 35,000 tonner will be cursing that fact that they can't squeeze a few more airframes on-board, in fact I've even considered having the RN insist on folding wings (much to Ed H's annoyance... ;) ).
 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 27, 2013, 07:59:43 PM
You were saying... ;)

(http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/FWA1.JPG)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 27, 2013, 08:01:49 PM
WHOA!  :-*

Never seen that before: what's the story?

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on August 27, 2013, 08:13:27 PM
AND the vertical tail too???!!!  :o

DETAILS!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 27, 2013, 08:52:08 PM
Would that fit in the hanger of Indefatigable or Implacable?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 27, 2013, 10:34:04 PM
Next question is: Did the folding wing reduce the number of hard-points/wing-loading? ???

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 28, 2013, 12:20:49 AM
Guys, you are going to hate me for this but in my defence I did use the  ;) icon...

The story is that while no folded wing A-4's were produced by Douglas, three stricken and gutted A-4's were modified for public relations purposes, one each at NAS Lemoore, NAS Jacksonville, and NART Atlanta. All three had folding wings and vertical fins for overhead and side clearance during ground transportation by flatbed trailer.

(http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/068B.JPG)
(http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/A4_71.JPG)

However, in the whiffverse who is to say the RN didn't do something similar on operational birds?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 28, 2013, 12:28:43 AM
if they did add folding wings, I suspect they'd be manually folding rather than mechanically driven; it makes for a lighter airframe and far less complicated systems.  Both of these are valid concerns when you're striving for the lightest possible airframe.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2013, 12:40:33 AM
Okay, so they might not be real folding-wing Skyhawks, but nevertheless, they illustrate the point beautifully. The fold line seems to be narrower than the tailplane span, so I'd guess the width reduction should be figured at about one third, but even so, on a carrier with just 12 non-folding aircraft, that gets you up to 16: a serious increase.

What made me hesitate before having the RN insist on a folding wing was the weight and complication consequences. A Skyhawk carries much of it's fuel in the wong: how much wolud you lose to the wing fold, even if it was manual, and what are the consequences of folding a fuelled wing or fuelling a folded one?

Something else I was thinking of doing was having the RN delete the guns from their aircraft (after all the Buccaneer had none): would losing the guns, and using their space for more integral tankage, compensate for the wing fold?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 28, 2013, 02:02:36 AM
If the wings outboard of the fold retained integral tankage, you'd lose not only the volume of fuel taken up by the fold structure and locking mechanisms but also the extra fittings to seamlessly plumb the outboard tankage into the rest of the aircraft's fuel system.  Having said that, removing the guns and converting the ammo and gun bays to extra fuel capacity would probably come close to making that quantity up, but it would definitely drive the cost of the aircraft up for the FAA since they'd be paying for all the re-engineering in these areas and the fixed costs would be spread over a comparatively small quantity of aircraft.

It might make more sense to either leave the guns in or just have them replaced by ADEN's comparable to those used on the Scimitar (if the Israelis can get DEFA cannon in there, which are very similar to the ADEN guns, there shouldn't be a major problem).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2013, 03:48:46 AM
Some Singaporean Skyhawks were actually delivered with ADENs, so that's definately possible.

I agree about the logic of sticking with guns and non-folding wings in the interests of commonality and reduced costs, but isn't there something infuriatingly plausible about the other course?

Government : "You've got to buy off-the-shelf American gear to get the benefits of standardisation and economies of scale, and, of course, to save taxpayer's money!"

Armed Forces : "Weeeellllll okaaay, but it'll need a few cheap, simple modifications to meet our uniquely special needs...."

Government : "Okay, well we don't want to (be seen to) compromise on the quality of Defence..."

Armed Forces : "Actually maybe a few more modifications, which, of course, are generating work for British industry...."

Government : "Weeeelllll, we can't (be seen to) object to that...."

Armed Forces : "And just one more whacking great mega-expensive modification, now it's too far gone to cancel......"

Government : "Butbutbut now we've spent as much on you as if we'd developed the damned kit ourselves! Oh bugger, not again....."

Armed Forces : "Gotcha....."

 ???
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 28, 2013, 05:25:29 AM
*snicker* Methinks I've seen that ploy used a few times. *whistles innocently*
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jschmus on August 28, 2013, 07:04:59 AM
For one artist's take on the Skyhawk in Fleet Air Arm service, see here:
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 28, 2013, 07:14:06 AM
For one artist's take on the Skyhawk in Fleet Air Arm service, see here:
[url]http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm[/url])


Outstanding!  Please feel free to also repost in the Stories section here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?board=5.0).
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 28, 2013, 10:56:57 AM
"The untimely death of Defense Minister Duncan Sandys in an air-to-air missile accident in late 1957..."  Now I wonder if we'll ever hear what really happened?  ;D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on September 01, 2013, 07:01:01 PM
Okay I think we're good for 30mm ADENs on the FAA's Skyhawks: some Singaporean ones were delivered with ADENs and they're nearly indistinguishable from the Colts from the outside: much neater than the Israeli DEFA refit!

Question: what's the deal with 300 gallon "bobtail" drop tanks? Basically, Skyhawks seem to use regular drop tanks with two tail fins and/or a "bobtail" version with the tail cone and fins removed. Why, and what are the issues/variant differences etc...?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 22, 2013, 05:33:40 AM
Mixing A-4 and Albatros.
Which wing do you prefer?

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/a4_longnose01.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/a4_longnose01.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Damian on September 27, 2013, 03:42:47 AM
Okay I think we're good for 30mm ADENs on the FAA's Skyhawks: some Singaporean ones were delivered with ADENs and they're nearly indistinguishable from the Colts from the outside: much neater than the Israeli DEFA refit!

Question: what's the deal with 300 gallon "bobtail" drop tanks? Basically, Skyhawks seem to use regular drop tanks with two tail fins and/or a "bobtail" version with the tail cone and fins removed. Why, and what are the issues/variant differences etc...?

The shorter tank went on the center line while the finned versions went on the wing stations as they are longer.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Nexus1171 on September 27, 2013, 08:18:02 AM
I was thinking about the A4D-6: It was the competitor to the A-7 Corsair

The requirements did specify the plane had to be based on an existent design, but neither Vought nor Douglas really followed it to the letter and basically paid lip-service to the requirement.  The aircraft did superficially look like the designs they were based on, but were in reality, very different planes.

The A-7 certainly turned out to be a fine aircraft, with a heavy-payload and the ability to get the living daylights beaten out of it and still return home; the A4D-6 looked to have a number of advantages in that (provided it was anything like the other A-4's) it had the potential to be more maneuverable, reducing the odds of it getting hit, increasing it's odds to hit its target with it's, albeit inferior, payload.

That being said, I'm wondering if Douglas could have managed to done any of the following
So as to effectively produce an A4D-6 with an A-7's payload :icon ninja:

The only remaining issue would be maneuverability (both sustained and instantaneous) for the baseline A4D-6:  The aircraft would have been heavier than the earlier A-4's which would mean more inertia (most importantly pitch; roll would probably still be excellent), though the aircraft was significantly different than the earlier A4D's (Most likely, this would mean redesigned and, hopefully, more effective control surfaces).  Though the wing was redesigned, I'm not sure how much bigger or more efficient it was, so it's wing-loading might very well have been heavier; the TF30 was more powerful, but I'm not sure how it factored against the wing (turbofans also generally lose more thrust at altitude than do turbojets of the same sea level thrust) which might raise implications for sustained turning performance.

For the A4D-6 with an A-7 payload: Even if the baseline had no significant problems (extra thrust offset the extra weight at all altitudes, wing either was slightly larger or more effective, or offset by the extra thrust; more effective control surfaces dealt with inertia issues), a problem would almost certainly appear in this case.  The solutions could include any of the following
While long winded, I'm curious as to people's opinions of the feasibility of this fictitious idea for it's time and place...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 19, 2013, 02:14:20 AM
Random Idea:  RAN FAA Skyhawk operating over Vietnam during the war...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 21, 2013, 04:14:48 AM
Random idea:  Italian A-4 in this sort of scheme:

(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/mitchaskari/gynsfnhn.jpg)

Somewhat akin to what was down with this AMX a few years back:

(http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/071_2627w5.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 21, 2013, 11:11:47 AM
Perhaps most easily done with these?  http://www.mikegrantdecals.com/SmokeRings.html (http://www.mikegrantdecals.com/SmokeRings.html)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 22, 2013, 02:59:06 AM
Perhaps most easily done with these?  [url]http://www.mikegrantdecals.com/SmokeRings.html[/url] ([url]http://www.mikegrantdecals.com/SmokeRings.html[/url])


Has anyone here tried them?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 22, 2013, 07:36:13 AM
^ I've seen a build on a German forum where they worked really nicely, but, personally, I'd be far too afraid of silvering with that much clear film on the model's surface. Which is why I wonder whether these smoke rings would be possible to realise as dry, "rub-on" transfers? The sort Archer or HobbyDecal do.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 22, 2013, 09:01:27 AM
Maybe a good painting mask/template is required.  One could probably do it nicely.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 22, 2013, 10:14:36 AM
Micro-Sol, Micro-Set and Future followed with a matt varnish would make it work, I think.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on December 27, 2013, 11:05:28 AM
US Army version based on the A2D-2N so it has a terrain following radar.   Rather than dual main landing gear, switch to a wider tire and avoid the bulky fairings.    Possibly delete refueling capability.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2014, 03:28:11 AM
Random idea:

Portuguese A-4 instead of A-7.  Same scheme as below:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Portuguese_A-7P_Corsair_II_in_flight_c1984.jpg/1280px-Portuguese_A-7P_Corsair_II_in_flight_c1984.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2014, 06:27:03 AM
Has anyone ever released a 1/48 conversion in order to do the Singaporean TA-4S:

(http://www.combatreform.org/a4sflightline.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Scooterman on August 10, 2014, 08:14:06 AM
Random idea:

Portuguese A-4 instead of A-7. 

That's an idea!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on August 10, 2014, 06:34:30 PM
Has anyone ever released a 1/48 conversion in order to do the Singaporean TA-4S:

([url]http://www.combatreform.org/a4sflightline.jpg[/url])


I don't think anyone has released a conversion set for it in any scale.

From what I understand, the rear cockpit canopy has a bulged cross section that's nigh on impossible to replicate even with vac forming.

I've also heard the rear cockpit is classified even after retirement, though I don't know how true that bit is.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 10, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
My understanding was that the rear canopy and windscreen were right off other single-seat A-4's as a cost-reduction measure for the two-seaters.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on August 10, 2014, 11:28:09 PM
My understanding was that the rear canopy and windscreen were right off other single-seat A-4's as a cost-reduction measure for the two-seaters.


Not at all.

In this picture, you can see the difference in cross section between the front and rear canopies and just enough of the rear windscreen too see that it lacks a flat front panel and associated framing:

(http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/a-4/images/df-sd-04-00167.jpg)
net photo

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on August 11, 2014, 08:11:01 AM
That rear canopy, from the front does make it look rather bizarre.  Also shows how little forward and downward vision a standard canopy would have.  Obviously the instructor has to hang his head out one side or the t'other to see.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on August 13, 2014, 10:31:32 AM
Perhaps the bulged canopy is a refit to replace the standard A-4 version.  I have also heard the story that the rear cockpit was taken from other A-4s.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Scooterman on August 18, 2014, 07:34:02 AM
For those who want to know...........

The Singapore TA-4S was created out of two single seat B's so the engine (J-65) could stay the same with the rest of their fleet.  The length and cockpit arrangements were the same as any other TA-4, but in place of the long one piece canopy, the RSiAF wanted better over the nose visibility for the backseater and again to keep a common parts theme, the rear canopy as delivered was the same as the front unit (albeit with a different rear windscreen).

About the time the T/A-4SU project started, the bulged sided rear canopy was developed and installed.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 01, 2014, 07:36:21 PM
Subtle whiff:  Singaporean TA-4 with one piece canopy
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on January 19, 2015, 03:11:18 AM
Couple of Skyhawk questions, folks:

1. What colour was the thermal cockpit shield (I presume white, but the only photo I can find is black and white)? Does anyobdy have a better picture of it than the one that appears on the Wikipedia page?

2. When a Skyhawk was preparing for launch from a carrier, would it's leading edge slats be in or out
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 19, 2015, 03:21:33 AM
The leading edge slats on Skyhawks and Skywarriors were gravity controlled. Once airborne air pressure pushed them back against the wing. So any Skyhawk on the ground the slats would be down. Except the Blue Angel aircraft. Theirs was welded in the up position to prevent an aircraft accidentally getting one slat up and one down while in tight formation.

I believe the shielding was gray like the rest of the cockpit but don't quote me on it. Check out the website Prime Portal for all kinds of military equipment walk arounds. There may be cockpit pictures there. Also Airliners.net has military aircraft too.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on January 19, 2015, 04:24:51 AM
Ah Sod's Law: found the answer to the slats question just AFTER I posted it.  ::)

What was confusing me was that I could find pics of A-4s on the cat with both slats in and slats out. However I've just found a Q&A on PPrune by somebody with the same question, and it seems that the slats were gravity operated, so they were always down when the aircraft was at rest, but they retracted VERY quickly when the cat was fired, so those pics that show them in were probably taken half a second after the aircraft started to accelerate.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 19, 2015, 04:47:51 AM
Just the inertia of the slat would slam it into the wing when the aircraft was shot forward. I believe a pre flight check was to make sure the slats were free to move as you definitely did not want to try and take off with one up and one down.
The pics of the Singapore Skyhawks show the slats down while taxing down the runway. They are up in the pic of the parked aircraft so that must be a maintenance procedure. The ground crew would have to push them up.
These types of slats were on other Douglas aircraft too.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on January 19, 2015, 04:31:40 PM
Interesting stuff, I love it when discussions like this come up, I learn so much from them.  Thankyou gentlemen!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 20, 2015, 09:52:55 AM
I always found the Squadron Signal "In Action" series of books very helpful. Lots of pics and good explanations of various functions. Sort of like Playboy. (Did I say that out loud?)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on January 20, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
The Squadron Signal "In Action" books certainly are very helpful, but they're no substitute for having a good look at the real thing, particularly if you're allowed to play with it too. Sort of like Playboy.....
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on January 20, 2015, 10:16:58 AM
The old "Detail and Scale" books are even better  ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 20, 2015, 12:27:40 PM
Better than Playboy?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on January 20, 2015, 01:44:35 PM
Better than Playboy?

Probably up there with Hustler? :icon_surprised:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on January 20, 2015, 11:31:19 PM
Or down there depending on your POV ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 21, 2015, 12:50:14 PM
I think we have offended just about everyone! >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 21, 2015, 03:57:02 PM
I was about to ask whether anyone had any new photos, colour scheme ideas etc for the Army Scooter, but I seem to have come into the wrong thread... :-[
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on January 21, 2015, 04:08:55 PM
All good, mate! :)

We're back on track now ... I think!? ???

I'd be looking at SEA or 3-tone NATO. ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on January 21, 2015, 04:23:10 PM
Army paint jobs have to be OD green on top and grey underneath!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 22, 2015, 02:55:46 AM
Back on topic... ;)

(https://blevesque15.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/strangelove-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 22, 2015, 03:44:31 AM
Well all I can say is, being strapped in with your safety belts has just got to cramp your style ----  ;)   ;D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 23, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
I'm going to go with overall OD/greenish with yellow ARMY titles and serial  8)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on January 23, 2015, 12:05:54 PM
Well all I can say is, being strapped in with your safety belts has just got to cramp your style ----  ;)   ;D

Supposedly relief tubes can pull a vacuum ...

 :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 23, 2015, 08:38:17 PM
(http://imageshack.com/a/img913/1488/GbmpMB.jpg)

From Secret Projects. (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1481.msg240341.html#msg240341)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 28, 2015, 05:44:15 AM
That's the one - saw the pic, saved it, locked it in, wrote the backstory :-D

It also turns out the Aeronavale evaluated an A-4M or two before deciding to go with the Super Etendard. Great, ANOTHER Scooter kit to buy!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on January 28, 2015, 06:15:07 AM
Great picture.  Looks right in Army scheme :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on January 28, 2015, 06:20:26 PM
<...>
It also turns out the Aeronavale evaluated an A-4M or two before deciding to go with the Super Etendard. Great, ANOTHER Scooter kit to buy!

TWO kits, actually.  ;) One as a standard A-4M in Aeronavale service, the other modified with an Agave/Anemone radar + Exocet on the centre-line.  >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 29, 2015, 02:00:33 AM
modified with an Agave/Anemone radar + Exocet on the centre-line.  >:D

Which deserves to be modelled!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 29, 2015, 03:12:31 AM
Ugh, FINE!  >:D Two A-4Ms it is!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 04, 2015, 08:32:41 AM
If I wanted to build a F-404 powered (like the A-4SU) in Satan's scale (1/72), what modifications would I need to add to reflect the F-404 installation? The
web pictures of the A-4SU show a small intake on the side of left main intake. A smaller on on the right. The exhaust pipe looks to be unchanged.  Five hardpoints vs three.

Left side:
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/6/9/1327961.jpg)
Ride side:
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/4/3/1534349.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 04, 2015, 08:35:55 AM
Perhaps the bulged canopy is a refit to replace the standard A-4 version.  I have also heard the story that the rear cockpit was taken from other A-4s.


A bit of back peddling here but:

(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev4/3101-3200/rev3110-Miliverse-MV72001/08.jpg)

1/72 Singapore Skyhawks decal sheet (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev4/3101-3200/rev3110-Miliverse-MV72001/00.shtm)

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 04, 2015, 12:37:28 PM
If I wanted to build a F-404 powered (like the A-4SU) in Satan's scale (1/72), what modifications would I need to add to reflect the F-404 installation? The
web pictures of the A-4SU show a small intake on the side of left main intake. A smaller on on the right. The exhaust pipe looks to be unchanged.  Five hardpoints vs three.
I believe that some of the paneling on the underside of the fuselage has to change to reflect the AMAD gearbox rather than engine-mounted accessory drives as well as a small screen for the outflow from the air turbine starter.  I'd love to see this crossed with the ESM and radar provisions of the A-4Kahu.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 04, 2015, 05:02:59 PM
Yes a hybrid SU / Kahu would be very interesting.  A joint upgrade program between NZ and Singapore?  Actually, assuming the RAN managed to score a CTOL carrier for a reasonable price in the 60s or 70s, a joint NZ, Singapore, Australian project, or even add the RN for their Skyhawks ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 26, 2015, 04:03:18 AM
A-4s with CFTs:

(http://combatace.com/uploads/post-59028-0-74371400-1363035792.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jschmus on September 09, 2015, 03:24:50 AM
From Tom Gervasi's Arsenal of Democracy, copyright 1978, the following are listed as prospects for A-4 export: Greece, Lebanon, Peru, the Philippines, Thailand, Tunisia and Zaire.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 25, 2015, 08:04:11 PM
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on September 26, 2015, 12:26:07 AM
A-4 rewing is looking good.  Another one with styrene possibilities :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on September 26, 2015, 02:03:38 AM
([url]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg.html[/url])


Love it.

What scale are the A-6 wings?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 26, 2015, 04:14:26 AM
^^^^^
A-4: 1/72
A-6 1/100 (Tamiya little gem ... maybe)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on September 26, 2015, 05:59:52 PM
Thank you. I have a Tamiya 1/100 A-6. I'll have to do a trial fit.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 27, 2015, 06:15:15 AM
Another kind of Super Skyhawk

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/SuperSkyhawk.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/SuperSkyhawk.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2015, 06:34:34 AM
At first glance I thought the A-6 winged version was a VG one.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 15, 2015, 03:13:20 AM
Just something to excite a few people:

(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on December 15, 2015, 10:58:45 AM
([url]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/a4-pointed.jpeg.html[/url])


Nice one: looks almost like a Hawk in the top view.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 15, 2015, 11:05:12 AM
Just something to excite a few people:

([url]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/GTX_Christmas/s-l1600.jpg[/url])

Any chance of getting scans/copies of the whole report/brochure?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 14, 2016, 09:51:06 AM
Seconded! I have a Tamiya 1/100 Scooter that needs a new purpose.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 21, 2016, 04:52:25 AM
Here's a RNZAF Scheme that will fool the experts if you were to model it:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X0cbnjZlLQ4/U6jDJNukQuI/AAAAAAAAEsM/wgZLDQAY1RI/s1600/Robbos-Kiwi-Skyhawk-001-01-psp1.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on March 21, 2016, 01:53:59 PM
Just stopping ashore while HMNZS Southland (former HMS Victorious) is in port.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 21, 2016, 02:17:18 PM
Like to see a F404 powered Skyhawk show its stuff at air show.
Flying clean and light and such !
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 22, 2016, 02:31:15 AM
Just stopping ashore while HMNZS Southland (former HMS Victorious) is in port.

I was thinking HMNZS New Zealand - last of the Malta class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta-class_aircraft_carrier#Ships).  I do like the idea of Kiwi ship based Skyhawks hough...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 22, 2016, 02:48:34 AM
Like to see a F404 powered Skyhawk show its stuff at air show.
Flying clean and light and such !

Here are a couple of videos for you - just look up A-4SU on the web and you can find more:

https://youtu.be/9uKGrovVDnc
https://youtu.be/8P-sUomqn5M

Supposedly the modernised A-4SU and TA-4SU versions with the F404 turbofan engine had 29% more thrust, which resulted in a 30% reduction in takeoff time as well as an increase in usable payload, range and maximum speed. The maximum speed at sea level was 610 knots (1,130 km/h; 700 mph), and maximum cruise speed at 30,000 feet (9,100 m) is 446 knots (826 km/h; 513 mph).

It would be interesting to combine the SU upgrade with the Project Kahu one and maybe some more things to derive a Ultra Skyhawk for the 21st Century.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on March 22, 2016, 09:41:36 AM
Just stopping ashore while HMNZS Southland (former HMS Victorious) is in port.

I was thinking HMNZS New Zealand - last of the Malta class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta-class_aircraft_carrier#Ships).  I do like the idea of Kiwi ship based Skyhawks hough...

NZ provided a stack of personnel to the UK who ended up in the British Pacific Fleet in WWII, post war NZ actually had more people trained and experienced in carrier operations than Australia did, many ending up in the RAN as they introduced their carriers.  It would have cost more than NZ was prepared to pay but they were very well set up to introduce their own ship.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on March 23, 2016, 05:52:15 AM
Someone at AMI recently modelled the RAN/RNZAF hybrid scheme, while I'm not a fan of the camo the model looked great.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on June 13, 2016, 05:32:06 AM
How about a cruise missile?  Everything forward of the intakes is dedicated to a large firecracker and its navigation.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2016, 02:44:56 AM
Works for me
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on June 14, 2016, 09:22:26 AM
Works for me

Yep, about all they're good for, really. ;)



(Excuse me while I find somewhere to hide while FAAMAN, scooter & Scooterman empty their Colts in my general direction! ;D )
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 15, 2016, 03:58:10 AM
Well, they also make good target drones...


...move over in that foxhole!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 15, 2016, 04:57:39 AM
Said QA-4 Target Drone might look a little like this:

(http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/a4dpics/137819.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kengeorge on June 15, 2016, 08:40:12 AM
The QA-4 Drone idea, air launched from B-52 wing pylons,
OR as a pair of Parasite fighters, with modded tails?
OR use the B-52 as a stand-off mothership for instant sunshine carrying scooters,
Maybe unmanned (UCAV) scooters
Got an A-4 Blank to mess around with. Hmmm.......
I know, Heresy you shout. My excuse is its late here and I haven't had any chocolate tonight to suppress the madness.
I blame Greg for the last picture giving me ideas.
Carry on sir.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 15, 2016, 08:57:39 AM
Might be better off using the B-36 as your mother ship.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 15, 2016, 11:23:28 AM

I blame Greg for the last picture giving me ideas.


Who? Me? But I'm innocent...

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d4/09/de/d409de77e93ba01d65d7ece9f9ed94de.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on June 15, 2016, 05:23:45 PM
Works for me

Yep, about all they're good for, really. ;)



(Excuse me while I find somewhere to hide while FAAMAN, scooter & Scooterman empty their Colts in my general direction! ;D )

Relax, they'll probably jam... >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on August 26, 2016, 03:35:50 AM
Here I am, thinking I'm oh-so-clever, then going through the thread I find this:

Aéronavale A-4(FN) with Agave radar in nose and Exocet missile on centreline.


 :icon_twisted: Anyway, here's the profile.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/a-4agave_zps1vgkou25.png)

Parts are to scale. I'm kinda partial to Aeronavale colours, but I guess this might also work in Argentinian colours.  >:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 26, 2016, 04:38:58 AM
Nice art
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 27, 2016, 04:58:05 AM
Now, if we were doing something from back in the sixties, I could see a dry Avon as an alternative on a commonality basis (say, in joint service along side Hunters).

That sounds very interesting....was there much difference in size and weight to the Pratt & Whitney J52 and RR Avon?

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 27, 2016, 05:58:45 AM
P&W J52s (variants used in A-4):

Thrust: 8500 - 11200 lb Dry thrust depending upon variant
Length: 118.9 inches
Diameter: 30.2 - 32.1 inches depending upon variant (latter more powerful models had greater diameter)
Weight: 2056 - 2318 lb dry depending upon variant (latter more powerful variants being heavier too)

RR Avon (aiming for roughly comparable models in terms of thrust):

Thrust: 7500 - 11250 lb Dry thrust depending upon variant (lower one is the Avon RA.7 Mk.26 as used in CAC Sabre whilst higher is the Avon RA.24R Mk 200 series as used in Scimitar and latter model Canberras)
Length: 126.9 inches for more powerful versions
Diameter: 40.2 inches for more powerful versions
Weight: at least 2,869 lb dry (hard to find exact number for this)

Either way, I think the RR Avon would have had trouble fitting into the J52 space plus it would have most likely been lower performing.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 27, 2016, 10:38:45 AM
Dry Avon would have to be a substitute for the J65/Sapphire for an operator who wanted common logistics support for other aircraft, already serving, aircraft powered by the Avon.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 27, 2016, 03:24:10 PM
Thank you gentleman. I was looking at commonality when it came to the ADF!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 27, 2016, 04:58:13 PM
As this is a whiff site, why not a dry RB106?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 28, 2016, 03:38:18 AM
As this is a whiff site, why not a dry RB106?

Given the RB106 was supposedly designed as a drop in replacement for the Avon and thus of similar size (albeit more powerful), I still think it will be difficult to put into a A-4.  The diameter alone will be the killer unless you are happy with a fat arsed Skyhawk.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 28, 2016, 07:20:51 AM
As this is a whiff site, why not a dry RB106?

Given the RB106 was supposedly designed as a drop in replacement for the Avon and thus of similar size (albeit more powerful), I still think it will be difficult to put into a A-4.  The diameter alone will be the killer unless you are happy with a fat arsed Skyhawk.

Not full bottle on engines mate! But I like a bit of arse ;)

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 28, 2016, 07:32:28 AM
I found this snippet very interesting, especially as I'm looking at including an 'Improved' Foch class aircraft carrier in my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' -
"As we increased the launch weights we started seeing some strange effects. The catapults were made by the Brits and not reinforced as frequently along the track as ours are. With the steep angle of the bridle and the heavier weights putting more and more downward pressure on the nose wheel and the track itself, the track deflected and didn't have time to flex back up by the time the shuttle got there. Metal was shearing off the underside of the track. At those heavy weights we could have had a bridle failure and gone off sideways or something equally unpleasant. The simple fix would have been to rotate the nose tire forward to give the track time to rebound. But since the French didn't buy the A-4.

Our impression when we flew out to the Foch and landed was the deck was small, really small. Also, that the lens setting put us a little short. Since they wanted to get closer and closer to the theoretical max engaging speed, we were given exact speeds to hit the wire. Because of having to fly within one knot on approach and the wind over the deck determining the actual engaging speed, it was only after landing that we knew how it went. Somehow we hit every point on every landing we did. Their own development folks onboard thought we walked on water... so they kept pushing us to go faster and faster. Twice we upped our own limits. Finally, we said, “That’s it. Buy the aircraft and you can do your own tests”."
(Source: Skyhawk Association: A-4's Forever!, France checking out the A-4M Skyhawk - France and the A-4M Skyhawk. http://a4skyhawk.org/content/france-checking-out-4m-skyhawk (http://a4skyhawk.org/content/france-checking-out-4m-skyhawk))

Wow I cant help but wonder what these yank pilots would have thought about landing on HMAS Melbourne then!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 28, 2016, 08:05:16 AM
A reminder that one reason Singapore went with using J65-powered airframes as the basis for the A-4SU with the F.404 was that they had larger engine bays to accommodate the larger J65.  Wiki gives the following for the J65:
Diameter: 37,52 in.
Length: 122 in.

Definitely larger than the J52, if not quite as large as the Avon as noted.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 28, 2016, 05:56:04 PM
Wow I cant help but wonder what these yank pilots would have thought about landing on HMAS Melbourne then!

M.A.D

Well, mate, the RAN urban legend is that on a trip to the US our pilots flew ahead to land at a USN air field. On their way they flew over the USN carrier Enterprise & when at the bar that night suggested to the USN aviators present that they could land across the deck of the super-carrier. When mocked by the US Navy airmen the RAN pilots simply said "OK, you land along the deck of the Melbourne & we'll land across the deck of Enterprise." Next day USN & RAN pilots take to the air & over the docks where Melbourne was tied up alongside Enterprise. The US pilots took one look & said "OK, you guys win, no-one could land on that thing!"

My telling of the tale is pretty half-arsed but you get the picture. ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2016, 06:51:09 PM
P&W J52s (variants used in A-4):

Thrust: 8500 - 11200 lb Dry thrust depending upon variant
Length: 118.9 inches
Diameter: 30.2 - 32.1 inches depending upon variant (latter more powerful models had greater diameter)
Weight: 2056 - 2318 lb dry depending upon variant (latter more powerful variants being heavier too)

RR Avon (aiming for roughly comparable models in terms of thrust):

Thrust: 7500 - 11250 lb Dry thrust depending upon variant (lower one is the Avon RA.7 Mk.26 as used in CAC Sabre whilst higher is the Avon RA.24R Mk 200 series as used in Scimitar and latter model Canberras)
Length: 126.9 inches for more powerful versions
Diameter: 40.2 inches for more powerful versions
Weight: at least 2,869 lb dry (hard to find exact number for this)

Either way, I think the RR Avon would have had trouble fitting into the J52 space plus it would have most likely been lower performing.

Since the A-4 was originally designed around the J-65/Sapphire, which was interchangeable with the Avon, it might not be as difficult as you think, i.e. the J-52 was a 'loose' fit in the space intended for a J-65.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2016, 06:57:36 PM
A reminder that one reason Singapore went with using J65-powered airframes as the basis for the A-4SU with the F.404 was that they had larger engine bays to accommodate the larger J65.  Wiki gives the following for the J65:
Diameter: 37,52 in.
Length: 122 in.

Definitely larger than the J52, if not quite as large as the Avon as noted.


Were the engine bay differences 'hard', i.e. smaller holes in the fuselage frames on the A-4E onwards, or were they 'soft' as in spacers and adaptors fitted to the earlier bays to take the J-52?

My Royal Navy Skyhawk project has them switching from Sapphires to Avons for commonality with Avon-engined Grumman Tigers, but then that's a late-1950s decision about new airframes.

Model: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=5233.0 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=5233.0)

Profiles & full backstory: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3529.msg53106#msg53106 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3529.msg53106#msg53106)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 28, 2016, 08:11:35 PM
Hey, I like ya backstory Weaver
Although I don't know why I hadn't read it earlier :(

"My Royal Navy Skyhawk project has them switching from Sapphires to Avons for commonality with Avon-engined Grumman Tigers, but then that's a late-1950s decision about new airframes."

Its funny, I've been deliberating over weighing up either the simple and cost effective Skyhawk or the more advanced and slightly more costly Super Tiger for my Majestic class carriers in my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT'!
I wasn't aware until quite recently that Grumman offered a Avon-powered variant of their Super Tiger.
Do you have anything on this Avon/Super Tiger proposal Weaver? Please PM me if you do!!

P.S. what radar does your Royal Navy Skyhawks have?

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2016, 08:30:28 PM
Hey, I like ya backstory Weaver
Although I don't know why I hadn't read it earlier :(

"My Royal Navy Skyhawk project has them switching from Sapphires to Avons for commonality with Avon-engined Grumman Tigers, but then that's a late-1950s decision about new airframes."

Its funny, I've been deliberating over weighing up either the simple and cost effective Skyhawk or the more advanced and slightly more costly Super Tiger for my Majestic class carriers in my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT'!
I wasn't aware until quite recently that Grumman offered a Avon-powered variant of their Super Tiger.
Do you have anything on this Avon/Super Tiger proposal Weaver? Please PM me if you do!!

Thanks!

Sorry, but all I've got on the Avon version is a line on the Super-Tiger Wiki page saying it was offered to the Luftwaffe in competition with the Starfighter.



Quote
P.S. what radar does your Royal Navy Skyhawks have?

M.A.D

Same AN/APG-53A as the standard A-4C, but they kept the full-size radome all the way through.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 29, 2016, 07:35:11 AM
Thanks Weaver

The AN/APG-53A was predominantly a air-to-surface system wasn't it?
I was wondering if the Magnavox AN/APQ-94 fire control radar of the Vought F-8E Crusader would be able to be installed in the RAN's A-4G Skyhawk's? Im thinking incorporating its systems (black boxes) might deem the fitting of the camel hump (which the RAN had eliminated on its variant) to relocate systems and subsystem which would be displaced in the nose/forward fuselage area!
The thing I like about the Magnavox AN/APQ-94, is that its already an 'all-weather' tested and proven navalised system, and it would support the Aim-9C radar-guided Sidewinder variant - giving my RAN Skyhawk two 20mm cannon, 2 x Aim-9B (IR-guided) and 2 x Aim-9C (Radar-guided) Sidewinder AAM's!

I was contemplating including the F-8E's IRST sensor, thinking it would be an additional sensor (especially over vast open water), but from what I've read it was of limited reliability! So it might not have been worth the pain in the balls to incorporate into the little Scooter!

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 29, 2016, 10:22:13 AM
IRST's of that period were not too great - there's a reason they got removed early on in the Phantom II's development.  I could see fitting the f-8 radar or the F-11 radar as being of suitable size.  The larger radome would mean a redesign of the nose to move boxes and systems, or you could try keeping the antenna mounting plane the same and changing the lines of the radome forward of that, somewhat like the one pictured earlier in this thread with a F-11 radome.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on August 29, 2016, 06:22:03 PM
Thanks Weaver

The AN/APG-53A was predominantly a air-to-surface system wasn't it?


Yes indeed, but in my backstory the RN Skyhawks are primarily being bought as Sverdlov killing tactical nuclear bombers (small carrier Buccaneers, basically) so air-to-surface is what they need. The RN has it's Avon-Tigers with AI.23 for air defence.

Quote
I was wondering if the Magnavox AN/APQ-94 fire control radar of the Vought F-8E Crusader would be able to be installed in the RAN's A-4G Skyhawk's? Im thinking incorporating its systems (black boxes) might deem the fitting of the camel hump (which the RAN had eliminated on its variant) to relocate systems and subsystem which would be displaced in the nose/forward fuselage area!

Don't know about the relative volumes, but one oddball thing that's theoretically possible is having the actual radar black boxes, even including the transmitter, remote from the aerial and connecting the latter to the rest via long waveguides. This was one solution proposed for fitting a larger radar to the XF8U-3 Crusader III, whose radome shape couldn't be bulged or extended for aerodynamic reasons (because it functioned as part of the air intake system). How reliable it would've been is open to question since it was never actually tried. The next aircraft that I know of to have a distributed architecture radar like that was the Sea Harrier FA.2, but that came 30 years later and used a digital databus to make it work.

Quote
The thing I like about the Magnavox AN/APQ-94, is that its already an 'all-weather' tested and proven navalised system, and it would support the Aim-9C radar-guided Sidewinder variant - giving my RAN Skyhawk two 20mm cannon, 2 x Aim-9B (IR-guided) and 2 x Aim-9C (Radar-guided) Sidewinder AAM's!

As far as I know, the AIM-9C was pretty unsatisfactory and was hardly ever used.

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 29, 2016, 08:06:07 PM
I think this quote from the Directory of US Rockets and Missiles says it all:

"The SARH AIM-9C was only used with the Navy'S F8U Crusader fighters to provide these with an all-weather capability without having to fit a Sparrow-compatible radar. However, the AIM-9C was not very successful, and only 1000 were built by Motorola between 1965 and 1967. Many were later converted into AGM-122A Sidearm anti-radiation missiles. "
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 04, 2016, 05:14:54 AM
Just a colourful Skyhawk to inspire you:

(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r75/kenbowes_photos/IMG_3162.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 08, 2016, 06:20:10 AM
More random A-4 inspiration:  Someone is about to have a bad day underneath this lot:

(https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14500282_983987628376285_4397488571999787978_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 09, 2016, 10:13:13 PM
I suspect that's over a weapons range in the Southern California desert; the terrain looks quite right for that.  These might even be staging out of China Lake.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kengeorge on May 16, 2017, 03:11:24 AM
Bit of a thread revival here,
I'm wondering out loud IF a Skyhawk could be adapted as a Fleet Air-Defence Fighter. My idea is to use a common A-4 airframe with different mods for a dedicated combat/Strike escort/Fleet Air Defence/etc...version, as against the original light ground attack version
M.A.D. has asked a question here-http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7213.0 to do with using an avon powered Skyhawk for his RAN 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', which was the basis of my inspiration.
What mods, would be needed to make the Scooter a fighter? A radar? If so what would be suitable? Armament...Sparrow & Sidewinder or other?
How about making the Fighter Scooter supersonic, an afterburning Avon, reskinned rudder, different intakes for instance.
I'm posting my version of an FMA Skyhawk/Mirage crossover as an example of what I mean.
This idea stemmed from a 'make do and mend' situation the Fuerza Aérea Argentina found themselves in during the Falklands war.
So any comments, suggestions, mild insults, gasps of incredulity, brickbats, whatever they are will be gratefully considered
Ken
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 16, 2017, 08:16:45 AM
Here's a real world A4 configured for Fleet Air Defence duties:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/image.jpg1_zpslaws2cnp.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on May 16, 2017, 02:40:08 PM
Sweet looking A-4  :)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on May 16, 2017, 06:55:21 PM
Interesting
Not wanting to give too much away with my backstory, but .....The RAN, in association with CAC and Douglas, incorporate the tested and proven Magnavox AN/APQ-83 radar and the Aim-9J Sidewinder AAM from the Vought Chance F-8 Crusader, to give it's CAC/Douglas A-4G+'s an all weather interception capability.........In addition to this, the RAN incorporates two 30mm ADEN cannons in place of the designs original two 20mm cannons - the RAN deeming the heavier 30mm round more effective against perceived enemy cruise missile carrying bombers, as well as shipping and ground targets.........

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 17, 2017, 12:59:55 AM
Bit of a thread revival here,
I'm wondering out loud IF a Skyhawk could be adapted as a Fleet Air-Defence Fighter. My idea is to use a common A-4 airframe with different mods for a dedicated combat/Strike escort/Fleet Air Defence/etc...version, as against the original light ground attack version
M.A.D. has asked a question here-http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7213.0 to do with using an avon powered Skyhawk for his RAN 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', which was the basis of my inspiration.
What mods, would be needed to make the Scooter a fighter? A radar? If so what would be suitable? Armament...Sparrow & Sidewinder or other?
How about making the Fighter Scooter supersonic, an afterburning Avon, reskinned rudder, different intakes for instance.
I'm posting my version of an FMA Skyhawk/Mirage crossover as an example of what I mean.
This idea stemmed from a 'make do and mend' situation the Fuerza Aérea Argentina found themselves in during the Falklands war.
So any comments, suggestions, mild insults, gasps of incredulity, brickbats, whatever they are will be gratefully considered
Ken

I really can't see a supersonic Scooter without even more redesign for added cooling of the engine bay and some consideration of area rule in intake location.  A fighter variant of the Scooter I can see with a suitable radar fit and weapons fit, but a supersonic variant gets into way more redesign.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 17, 2017, 01:23:37 AM
I've seen a what-if of an A-4 with a Sea Harrier FA.2 nose  ---- but do you think I can find where   :-X
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on May 17, 2017, 08:26:45 AM
Quote
I really can't see a supersonic Scooter

I agree!

I've seen a what-if of an A-4 with a Sea Harrier FA.2 nose  ---- but do you think I can find where   :-X

Would this be it??

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kengeorge on May 17, 2017, 08:46:43 AM
elmayerle-
I had a feeling getting the scooter to go faster was a bit of a stretch, but it was interesting to read your reply.
Point being, if there was a way of squeezing in an appropriate radar, could the Skyhawk carry Sparrows? Would it be even practical?
What is the considered opinion on the Skyhawk being a dog-fighter? I know the US Navy used them in DACT, 'Top gun' being a prime example.
Then there is the Lockheed-Martin A-4AR Fightinghawk as used by the Fuerza Aérea Argentina.
Now the thing is, did the US Navy & Marines consider at any time using it as a fighter or only as a bomb truck?
But then again, it is whiffworld so anything is possible.........
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 17, 2017, 04:31:35 PM
The A-4, if lightly loaded was quite a good dog-fighter.  It was how the Aggressors in the US Navy used to fly them.  It's major problem was it's lack of legs.   Away from DACT, in real life, the A-4 was used primarily as a fighter-bomber - primarily as a bomber and only secondarily as a fighter.   The A-4G of the RAN pictured above was optimised for air-to-air combat but could only carry four Sidewinders.   It lacked the radar to use BVR missiles.   However, it was forced on the RAN by necessity, rather than design.   HMAS Melbourne was to be retired when the RAN found a new use for her and then found that the only available new produced jet powered aircraft that could operate off a light fleet carrier with such a small deck was the A-4.

I've often wondered about the redesigned A-4 which Douglas proposed in the early 1960s IIRC.  It was a longer fuselage, with larger wings and a bigger engine.   It would have fixed many of the problems identified with the Scooter for speed, being able to achieve Mach 1 in level flight and would have had an adequate radar for BVR missiles (or room for one).   However, the US Navy wasn't interested and so it died on the vine.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 17, 2017, 05:47:55 PM

I've often wondered about the redesigned A-4 which Douglas proposed in the early 1960s IIRC.  It was a longer fuselage, with larger wings and a bigger engine.   It would have fixed many of the problems identified with the Scooter for speed, being able to achieve Mach 1 in level flight and would have had an adequate radar for BVR missiles (or room for one).   However, the US Navy wasn't interested and so it died on the vine.


Are you thinking of the A4D-4 proposal:  http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on May 17, 2017, 06:49:39 PM
Interesting seems similar in size to the F-11, so why not an F/A-11 instead ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 17, 2017, 07:54:50 PM

I've often wondered about the redesigned A-4 which Douglas proposed in the early 1960s IIRC.  It was a longer fuselage, with larger wings and a bigger engine.   It would have fixed many of the problems identified with the Scooter for speed, being able to achieve Mach 1 in level flight and would have had an adequate radar for BVR missiles (or room for one).   However, the US Navy wasn't interested and so it died on the vine.


Are you thinking of the A4D-4 proposal:  [url]http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/SAC/A4D-4_SkyhawkSAC-581114.pdf[/url])


Yep, that's the one.  Nice looking plane.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 17, 2017, 11:34:28 PM
Quote
I really can't see a supersonic Scooter

I agree!

I've seen a what-if of an A-4 with a Sea Harrier FA.2 nose  ---- but do you think I can find where   :-X

Would this be it??

Yeah, like that ----- only I thought it was an actual model   :-\  maybe it wasn't   :-X
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 18, 2017, 01:12:10 AM
elmayerle-
I had a feeling getting the scooter to go faster was a bit of a stretch, but it was interesting to read your reply.
Point being, if there was a way of squeezing in an appropriate radar, could the Skyhawk carry Sparrows? Would it be even practical?
What is the considered opinion on the Skyhawk being a dog-fighter? I know the US Navy used them in DACT, 'Top gun' being a prime example.
Then there is the Lockheed-Martin A-4AR Fightinghawk as used by the Fuerza Aérea Argentina.
Now the thing is, did the US Navy & Marines consider at any time using it as a fighter or only as a bomb truck?
But then again, it is whiffworld so anything is possible.........
Sparrows are rather larger than Sidewinders and need an illuminator on the target, fitting a radar like that on a Skyhawk would be difficult.  Much later in its career, when fully active radar homing AAM's become available, it would be possible but that wouldn't be until at least the late 1980's.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on May 18, 2017, 11:06:21 AM
How about an enhanced Skyray?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 18, 2017, 11:16:57 AM
How about an enhanced Skyray?
Be better to go with a production F5D-1 Skylancer or the proposed F5D-2 with a J79.  Both had the cleanups that would enhance the Skyray plus other improvements.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on May 18, 2017, 12:17:13 PM
A silly project I created 10+yr ago: the Pacific Aerospace/Lockheed-Martin F-19 Mosquito II.
"There is no such aircraft as the F-19" was an oft-spoken USAF statement of the 1980s, the words often coming from the stony face of General Lawrence Skantze, then  head of Air Force Systems Command. In fact, until November 1988, the very existence of the 'stealth' fighter had been completely denied, and certainly the position of its secret hideaway and its correct nomenclature. Despite the stone-walling, everybody knew the aircraft was at Tonopah, but few knew what it was called and what it looked like. November 1988 was an exciting time for aviation enthusiasts, for just a week after the announcement of details and release of a photograph of the F-117, the Northrop B-2 'stealth' bomber was rolled out and photographed extensively, further heightening public awareness of 'stealth' concepts.*
However, the "F-19" subject wore on. What was the designation for? The Aurora Mach 5+ SR-71 replacement? A near-space interceptor? A true "Stealth Fighter"? Or something beyond any observer's imagination? The answer was something of an anti-climax. In fact, the F-19 was not 'stealth' per se. Instead it was a largely conventional fighter, designed as a low-cost alternative to the Lockheed-Martin F-16.

DOWNUNDER DESIGNS
The story of the F-19 began in New Zealand, a country not famed for its aviation manufacture industry, in 1982. Designers at the Pacific Aerospace Corporation (PAC) embarked on a replacement design for the able but ageing McDonnell-Douglas A-4K Skyhawk, which had entered Royal New Zealand Air Force service more than a decade earlier. The team purchased a derelict Skyhawk fuselage from the RNZAF in mid 1984 and took to the parts, reengeneering the structure. A new wing of delta planform was designed, and the A-4s horizontal stabilizers were moved to the nose, becoming canard foreplanes. Mockup wings were produced in New Zealand pine and the structure assembled at the company's Hamilton base in early 1985. By March of that year the mockup was painted in a variation of RNZAF camouflage, fitted with various "dummy" weapons. The new wing incorporated wingtip and overwing AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile pylons as well as nine underwing hardpoints. The project was carried out in secret, in a special hangar on the far side of Hamilton's Rukuhia Airport away from the main PAC buildings.
Halfway through 1985 (while the F-19 debate was swirling) a team from McDonnell Douglas arrived in New Zealand, ostensibly to advise the RNZAF who, at the time, were planning the "Kahu" upgrade to the A-4s. Once initial planning for Project Kahu was complete the MD team travelled to Hamilton, as whispers of another Skyhawk development in New Zealand had filtered down through the MD hierarchy. The PAC design team responsible for the aircraft, at that time without a designation, were offered a deal which would see MD become the major subcontractor for the project. The PAC team would travel to MD's "Phantom Works" in the USA to develop and build a prototype for flight-testing. However, despite the considerable benefits to PAC for cooperating with MD, the team turned down the offer.

SKUNK WORKS
As 1986 dawned, a team from Lockheed-Martin's famed "Skunk Works" visited PAC, and inspected the project. The Skunk Works had been working to produce a new advanced light fighter, but to no avail as the "Stealth Fighter" project was taking up valuable working hours and costs. Lockheed made a similar offer to MD's (this would seem strange, but in a rare agreement MD had allowed Lockheed to investigate the Skyhawk replacement project and, if need be, carry it out) which was accepted by PAC.
It was May 1986 when the PAC team and their mockup arrived in the US. All had been cleared by Lockheed's security, and the New Zealand group were transported to Skunk Works' Palmdale facility. The aim was to have the prototype built by August 1987 - difficult but not impossible, considering the PAC team had done all structural designwork years before, with Lockheed only needing to implement the advanced "fly-by-wire" control systems and computers. A version of the Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofan being developed for the YF-22 was to be fitted. Lockheed technicians beat the deadline, finishing the components of "Article 42" (as the prototype was called in company documents) on April 23 1987. The PAC team were transported via road to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, and from there flown by helicopter to Lockheed's Groom Lake facility - the infamous "Area 51", known as Dreamland to employees. (Article 42 was transported by air direct from Palmdale)

SUCCESS IN SECRET
The aircraft was assembled at Groom Lake, and word from Lockheed confirmed that the designation YF-19 was to be applied to the aircraft. YF-19 was painted in a light grey scheme reminiscent of the Have Blue XST (forerunner of the F-117), wearing no national markings, and began taxi trials in June 1987, and the first flight was carried out on August 8 of that year. Pilot for the sortie was Lieutenant-Colonel Lance Anderson, Lockheed test pilot and veteran of the Skunk Works. The aircraft performed better than planned, with a top speed exceeding that of the F-16 and excellent low-speed handling characteristics despite the inherently unstable airframe design. The canard foreplanes resulted in manoevrability better than contemporary fighters, and more impressive than the A-4.
The aircraft turned out to be about three-quarters the price per unit of the F-16, a fact Lockheed advertising and marketing executives capitalised on. However, before the aircraft could be marketed to potential customers, it had to be named. Lockheed wanted a name reflecting the company's history (along the lines of the YF-22 "Lightning II") but the PAC team, without whom the aircraft would not exist, demanded a New Zealand name. For the American technicians and pilots working on the project it was the "Superscooter", but that could not be adopted as an official name. "Sidewinder" was seriously considered, but because of the missile of the same name it was dropped, as was "Sparrow". The name which finally found favour with both Lockheed and PAC was "Mosquito", reflecting the versatile fighter/attack role (the original Mosquito was a successful British WW2 fighter-bomber flown by New Zealanders) and the aircraft's small size.

FIGHTER OF THE FUTURE
Intensive marketing (later compared to Northrop's F-5G/F-20 Tigershark programme) began in 1988, coinciding with the first flight of the B-2 bomber and the unveiling of the F-117. The fact that the public had been lied to about the existence of an F-19 was swept aside by the scorching performance of the aircraft. Paris '89 was its international debut, with an incredible display by the first production F-19 which led to orders from NATO nations (Belgium, Denmark and Switzerland) and India (to be licence-built by HAL Industries).A two-seat trainer, the F-19B, was also developed, in addition to the F-19A single-seater. By 1994 the F-19 Mosquito was in heavy production, and more than 200 aircraft had been built.

NEW ZEALAND A CUSTOMER
In 1998 the government of New Zealand, under Prime Minister Jenny Shipley, began to investigate a Skyhawk replacement. The two aircraft which made the shortlist were the Lockheed-Martin F-16 and the F-19. Early 1999 saw the government announce the winner of the contract - the F-19 Mosquito was to be New Zealand's new fighter. The Skyhawks of No. 75 Sqn were to be phased out of service beginning December 12 2001, to be replaced by twelve F-19As and four F-19Bs. The Mosquitos were to be shipped to New Zealand as components and assembled at PAC's Hamilton facility. Four pilots would undergo conversion training on the F-19B at Lockheed-Martin's Burbank, California facility. The first aircraft, F-19A NZ8101 first flew on March 8 2002 at Hamilton, performing a half-hour test flight. A month later '01, in formation with '03 and '11, flew to Ohakea Air Force Base. The new fighters were escorted by a pair of A-4Ks and made a spectacular low-level arrival over the base under a brilliant blue sky.
In August 2002 the final aircraft, F-19B NZ8108, was delivered to Ohakea and the final A-4K was retired to storage at RNZAF Base Woodbourne. Since then the fleet has given stellar service, being popular at airshows at home and amongst friendly countries during international exercises.

TO THE FUTURE
In early 2006 the government of Canada announced that Lockheed-Martin had won the contract to replace the long-serving CF-18 Hornets with a development of the Mosquito, the CF-19. The aircraft is to be implemented over a three year period, with a total of 140 aircraft to be purchased (similar to the original CF-18 fleet). Limited orders have also been placed by Greece, the Netherlands and Poland. It is expected that, within a decade, all NATO member countries currently operating the F-16 will convert to the F-19. A navalised version was being considered for the Royal Navy (the F-19C), but the F-35 JSF was then selected. Currently this is under review due to debate amongst the United States government.

LOOKING BACK
The F-19 Mosquito remains the only military aircraft to be designed in New Zealand, and the most advanced fighter to originate from the Southern Hemisphere. It has more customers than any of Lockheed-Martin's other fighter aircraft (except the F-16) and, for its capabilities, relatively affordable for any government.
The original unnamed mockup of the F-19 design was taken back to New Zealand after trial fits of the electronics package and weapons at Palmdale. Stripped of the expensive equipment, the mockup was placed in storage at Hamilton. An Auckland comapny, responsible for two fibreglass Spitfire replicas, created a similar image of the F-19 from the mockup and this was placed on a stand outside PAC's head office. Another example, depicting a fictional service aircraft ("NZ8118") replaced a de Havilland Vampire on gate guard duty at RNZAF Ohakea.
Article 42, the YF-19, was used to test various paint schemes for customers, and was grounded in September 1994 after a landing gear collapse at RAF Boscombe Down (commonly referred to as the "ASTRA Incident", as some observers mistook the aircraft for the rumoured "Aurora" SR-71 replacement, the ASTRA AV-6). It was flown back to the US in a C-5 Galaxy and put in storage at Burbank. Today it is not known whether the aircraft remains in existence. Some reports from Lockheed-Martin suggest the aircraft is one of two (the other an F-19B) held at Groom Lake for weapons and electronics testing.
The first production F-19, the company demonstrator, still flies for potential customers. It is currently painted in a fictitous Royal Australian Air Force colour scheme.

*This paragraph is from the article "Stealth Aircraft", Airplane magazine issue 1, Orbis Publications 1989

Still have the bits and may yet muster the courage to resume the ridiculous amount of PSR required.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on May 18, 2017, 05:22:54 PM
How about an enhanced Skyray?

Would a Skyray/
Quote
enhanced Skyray
be able to operate from the deck of a Majestic class carrier? :-\

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on May 19, 2017, 12:46:26 AM
How about an enhanced Skyray?

Would a Skyray/
Quote
enhanced Skyray
be able to operate from the deck of a Majestic class carrier? :-\

M.A.D

Probably not (the Midway's from which they did operate were 200 feet longer) but the RAN & Australia would have been better served by Midway's (later modified Midway's) from the start, although Essex's wouldn't have been a bad, cheaper starting option.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 26, 2017, 02:50:26 AM
Interesting load out:

(http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/A-4BofNavyMissileCenterNMConthegroundatPointMuguCATheaircrafthasAQM-37Atargets_zpsf52c25f1.jpg~original)
(http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/1280px-A-4B_Skyhawk_with_AQM-37_target_drones_in_flight_1965_zps488cfbbf.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tankmodeler on June 27, 2017, 01:49:57 AM
What mods, would be needed to make the Scooter a fighter? A radar? If so what would be suitable? Armament...Sparrow & Sidewinder or other?
How about making the Fighter Scooter supersonic, an afterburning Avon, reskinned rudder, different intakes for instance.
This idea stemmed from a 'make do and mend' situation the Fuerza Aérea Argentina found themselves in during the Falklands war.
So any comments, suggestions, mild insults, gasps of incredulity, brickbats, whatever they are will be gratefully considered
Ken
Going on the assumption that the basic airframe and wings/tail are retained, there are a few things you could do to improve performance without starting the design from scratch.

- Raise the cockpit and fair into an enlarged avionics deck to fit a larger radar in the nose.
- add F-16-ish radar
- add IRST ball
- General aerodynamic clean-up of new cockpit/avionics deck: Drag reduction, fair in new radar, fair in CFTs, apply area ruling to new configuration, etc.
- Minor structural strengthening: re-skin control surfaces, strengthen brakes and landing gear, strengthen controls and control surface mounts, etc.
- Wire wings to carry 4 x AIM-9s and 4 x AIM-120s plus CL tank
- switch to afterburning F404 or even an F414.

You'd probably end up with a slightly higher speed (just under transonic, I dare say) ability to target and shoot BVR, reasonable legs (from the F404) and remain a good dogfighter with ability to maintain very high energy levels during all flight regimes. (with the F404 it would be near 1:1 thrust ratio at combat weight and greater than 1:1 with the F414).

So, if it could see you far enough away, it could probably kill you with the AIM-120s, closer, a good chance with the AIM-9s and in very close would probably be a good match for many Gen 3-4 fighters with the excess energy capability.

However, it would be vulnerable in that area between the AIM-120 and AIM-9 ranges as it's speed would give the enemy the advantage to engage or not.

In 2nd tier air forces, though, I bet it would be a handful against other similarly aged aircraft and a fair number of newer ones.

Paul
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on June 27, 2017, 05:21:38 AM
Interesting load out:

([url]http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/A-4BofNavyMissileCenterNMConthegroundatPointMuguCATheaircrafthasAQM-37Atargets_zpsf52c25f1.jpg~original[/url])
([url]http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab35/bobro15/1280px-A-4B_Skyhawk_with_AQM-37_target_drones_in_flight_1965_zps488cfbbf.jpg~original[/url])


With conventional warheads, would make for a hard hitting strike/anti-shipping configuration for the RAN  :P

M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 28, 2017, 01:55:02 AM
Israeli A-4 with (I believe) Gabriel ASMs:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/image.jpg1_zpselkauepv.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on November 25, 2017, 04:55:59 AM
What-if 1/48 Hobbycraft RCN A-4CN Sea Eagle

(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/01.jpg)

(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/04.jpg)

Backstory and more photos here at ARC Air: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 25, 2017, 05:03:20 AM
Nice, albeit heavy load for that Scooter...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on December 04, 2017, 06:14:02 AM
^^^^
Greg  will love these. Sure. :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 05, 2017, 01:54:02 AM
I would have kept the standard intakes. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: exkiwiforces on December 05, 2017, 10:40:04 AM
What-if 1/48 Hobbycraft RCN A-4CN Sea Eagle

([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/01.jpg[/url])

([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/04.jpg[/url])

Backstory and more photos here at ARC Air: [url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm[/url] ([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm[/url])


Its not the silly as it seems fitting two Sea Eagles to the A-4. The some Kiwi's pilots/ techo's, gunnies etc borrowed an inert Harpoon from somewhere after an SENGO with RNZAF HQ said that a Harpoon couldn't be fitted to the A-4 as it was too big during or after the Kahu upgrade and the apparently it fitted quite well to the centre line hard point with room to spare.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 05, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
I would have kept the standard intakes.
Seconded!!  No sense redesigning what doesn't need it.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 06, 2018, 05:40:06 AM
Interesting one that shouldn't be too hard to build
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on January 11, 2018, 07:33:49 AM
How about a more standard wing on an A-4. Super Scooter anyone?

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/39621564881_c323be2908_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23ndSQZ)A-4-Fast-01 (https://flic.kr/p/23ndSQZ)
by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4749/39592060492_661f208ae1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23jBEdC)A-4-Fast-03 (https://flic.kr/p/23jBEdC)
by Big Gimper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21812089@N02/), on Flickr

Wing from an F-86E. Horizontal stabs from a 1/100 IL-28. Lots of blue idea tape.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 12, 2018, 02:30:26 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 12, 2018, 04:46:08 AM
I'm going with Eurofighter wings and some canards for my Superscooter, but that is inspired! I think I need to get another cheap Italeri 1/72 A-4!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 25, 2018, 03:20:06 AM
Anti-shiiping Skyhawk:

(http://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFACE/RGM-84-Harpoon_DAT/RGM-84-Harpoon-007.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 14, 2018, 04:12:57 AM
Not sure if these have been posted already:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zQGwZ60SDkI/UW0fAXrc88I/AAAAAAAAB7I/Fuct9lZ6xPA/s1600/A-4GD+German+Marine2.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5o23mnG5f6Y/UWcQUEt3zfI/AAAAAAAAB64/rMmA1Nd0wUo/s1600/A-4GD+German+Marine.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 04, 2018, 04:43:55 AM
Via Facebook.

Douglas CA.4E/CA.4F Skyhawk for RCAF. & RCN ?... Flying Review International, March 1965

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37909138_10212360654432956_6161726491349483520_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=4d4a2395839d8498528b9be619c495ab&oe=5C9B8E1E)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on December 04, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
That would have been fun.
Would make a good whiff
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 05, 2018, 02:20:15 AM
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/qQwH2Lnpyzm3xK9D/?s=_mq)
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/uGjU4tsE14_5F92m/?s=_mq)
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/X9_jO8a9epivf6PZ/?s=_mq)
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/U4cIlOE0jyO3cOzj/?s=_mq)
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/rXr2L5y4cinHPCK8/?s=_mq)
(https://live.warthunder.com/dl/gorPp7X9KLtBTqib/?s=_mq)

Quote
Canadair CA-4L Skyhawk by Bob Aikens

The Douglas A-4 Skyhawk was a subsonic, carrier-capable attack aircraft developed for the US Navy and Marine Corps. First flown June 22, 1954, the Skyhawk has proved itself as a very long lasting design, and though they have long since been retired by the US, some of the 2,960 airframes that were built continue to serve to this day, both with government forces (such as Brazil, flying off the carrier São Paulo) and with private companies (such as the Montreal, Canada based Discovery Air Defense Services and the Florida based Draken International).

The Skyhawk was powered by a variety of engines during it's career, with the most powerful being the Pratt & Whitney J52-P-408a, which generated 11,200 ft lbs of thrust, giving a tp speed in the range of 1,150 km/h. Armament was extremely varied, including 2x 20mm Colt Mk 12 cannons in the wing roots (changed to 2x 30mm DEFA cannons in some Israeli aircraft) and 5 hardpoints (4 under-wing and 1 fuselage) with a payload of up to 9,900 lbs. These hardpoints could be occupied by 4x LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4x Mk.32 Zuni rockets), 4x AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, 2x AGM-12 Bullpup, 2x AGM-45 Shrike, 2x AGM-62 Walleye, 2x AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missiles, 6x Rockeye Cluster Bomb Units, any number of Mark 80 unguided bombs, the B43, B57, B61 tactical nuclear bombs, or up to 3x 1,400 L drop tanks.

The model is a Monogram 1/48 scale A-4E Skyhawk built straight from the box, finished in the standard two-tone grey camouflage worn by RCAF CF-188 Hornets (complete with fake cockpit painted on the underside of the fuselage) in order to represent a fictional RCAF Skyhawk.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 05, 2018, 02:22:03 AM
There is also this classic by AeroplaneDriver back in 2007:

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/AeroplaneDriver/skyhawk012.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/AeroplaneDriver/skyhawk009.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/AeroplaneDriver/skyhawk006.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/AeroplaneDriver/skyhawk005.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on December 05, 2018, 09:35:02 PM
Both patterns suit the scooter well
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 06, 2018, 11:42:10 AM
Anti-shiiping Skyhawk:

([url]http://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFACE/RGM-84-Harpoon_DAT/RGM-84-Harpoon-007.jpg[/url])

RAF/FAA/RAAF variant with a Sea Eagle missile instead of a Harpoon?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 07, 2018, 02:05:05 AM
Maybe.  Or maybe as is but in RAN FAA scheme as a subtle whiff to confound people given the RAN FAA used both the A-4 and the AGM-84...but just not together. ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 07, 2018, 07:53:19 AM
Maybe.  Or maybe as is but in RAN FAA scheme as a subtle whiff to confound people given the RAN FAA used both the A-4 and the AGM-84...but just not together. ;)
*wicked chuckle* I like the way you think.  Say in a low-viz RAN FAA scheme?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 08, 2018, 03:35:52 AM
Given the AGM-84s entered service not long before the A-4Gs were passed to New Zealand, I could see two whiff options:

Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 08, 2018, 04:30:23 AM
Perhaps the "Powers That Be" might even be persuaded to acquire a replacement carrier.   
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Alvis 3.1 on December 09, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
I always felt the A-4 was perfectly suited and perfectly times as a "Forces Unification Aircraft". Capable of operating from a carrier by the Navy, from land by the Air Force, and to support the Army in the field.

It also would then be known as the Eff You, Eh? by serving members.
:D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 09, 2018, 10:58:56 PM
Perhaps the "Powers That Be" might even be persuaded to acquire a replacement carrier.   


I have been toying with the idea for a while that possibly the damage to HMAS Melbourne from either the Voyager or Frank E Evens collisions could have been more serious or difficult to repair, requiring her replacement in the mid to late 60s for the first accident, or the early 70s for the second.  Thinking some sort of structural damage, say affecting shaft or maybe catapult  alignment, rather than a catastrophic loss with resulting injuries and fatalities.

Possibility one, the RAN acquires Centaur, Hermes, or Victorious in a hot transfer from the RN, aligning with the British draw down on their carrier force in the late 60s.  Possibility two, the US provides an Essex CVS or even CVA to make good the loss, maybe even funding the transfer in recognition of the value of the RAN operating a CVS and in compensation.  The required extra manning was obtained by decommissioning the fast troop transport HMAS Sydney and replacing her (and four army operated LSM) with four modified Round Table Class Landing Craft Logistics.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 10, 2018, 02:17:52 AM
Interesting idea.  Having the need for a replacement much earlier probably makes it more likely than something in the early/mid-80s.  I like the idea of either a British or American design as you have mentioned.  If a full competition was run, a Clemenceau-class might also be an option. Likewise, if one was to use the Voyager incident as the trigger, this might also open up the field to a CVA-01 design - maybe the ship being kept alive by sharing the economics with Australia with 1 -2 ships entering RN service and 1 entering RAN service.

That all said, my preference would have been an Essex class which was indeed offered/considered a number of times around this time period.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 10, 2018, 09:29:16 PM
Interesting idea.  Having the need for a replacement much earlier probably makes it more likely than something in the early/mid-80s.  I like the idea of either a British or American design as you have mentioned.  If a full competition was run, a Clemenceau-class might also be an option. Likewise, if one was to use the Voyager incident as the trigger, this might also open up the field to a CVA-01 design - maybe the ship being kept alive by sharing the economics with Australia with 1 -2 ships entering RN service and 1 entering RAN service.

That all said, my preference would have been an Essex class which was indeed offered/considered a number of times around this time period.


CVA-01 was considered alongside an upgraded, or even a new build, Essex and a modernised Centaur, the upgraded Essex being the preferred option.  My thinking is the severe damage would make a hot transfer of an existing ship the only real option.  The key advantage is this would get the carrier replacement out of the early 80s financial crunch, which was probably the worst recession we had since the Great Depression, and into the boom times of the late 80s but before the peace dividend.  Depending which ship was acquired a late 90s or early 2000s replacement could have been conceivable.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 14, 2018, 03:34:49 AM
Just an inspiring shot:

(http://a4skyhawk.info/sites/default/files/images-buno-154903-154910/154908-ran-887-vapor-mod1_thompson.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 24, 2019, 04:46:46 AM
Skyhawks fly in packs:

(https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/giphy-13.gif?w=497&h=223&zoom=2)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: FAAMAN on April 05, 2019, 04:40:05 PM
Just found this thread whilst searching for other "info"

I've read some scandalous and nearly criminal suggestions from "some" who should know better . . . . . . . you know who you are don't cha?  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(  Cruise missle conversions and target drones!! Really??? Foxholes could never hide such infamy from the righteous rath of Scooter admirers (or maintainers  :icon_vader:)  :icon_ninja: :icon_ninja:

A few ideas for WHIFFing the A-4. How about an Argentinian Canberra with A-4B piggyback Mistle combination as a stopgap carrier killer.
A point defense interceptor launched from a ZELL (Zero Length Launch) rail, the A-4 is lighter than an F-104 and can dogfight too, would use ground controlled intercept until the A-4's radar provided terminal guidance to launch.
Twin engined twin seat TA version, broad conformal saddle fuel tank with a suitable radar for long range BARCAP missions (like a small F-4) etc from small conventional carriers  ;) Hmmmmmm, I wonder if I could find a use for this?  :icon_meditation:
There are a couple more WHIFF ideas but 'cause I'm actually building 'em I can't tell yous about them until I get to unveil 'em.  ;)

Also, in regards to Yanks landing on the sacred angle deck you should see this Youtube vid;  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuU6dP_Irh0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuU6dP_Irh0)   
Charles William Darcey Ward, Jr. - Flew the first US Navy A-4B landing on HMAS Melbourne CV-21. On 20 May 1965 a USN Skyhawk, BuNo.144874, demonstrated deck landing qualities by carrying out landings and catapulting from HMAS Melbourne. LCDR Ward was Officer-in-Charge of VA-113 Det Q aboard the USS Bennington. Det (Detachment) A-4's always used Roman numeral side numbers in stead of the normal sort.




Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on April 05, 2019, 08:47:26 PM
I wonder if I made any of those suggestions? ??? ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2019, 03:43:55 AM
Speaking of twin engines:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/11130272_1583654455220773_4530630673141667880_n-2_zpsogjozvxc.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2019, 04:04:50 AM
And another variation that Giampiero Silvestri was working on years ago - never saw the finished product but this might give someone some ideas:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/2d9ed7t_zpsxfxjesnb.jpg)
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/6r0vps_zps4gbpjtqj.jpg)
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/6gzac9_zpsnfam2ktu.jpg)
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/2im2lv8_zpscko5bd0d.jpg)
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/10rle0p_zpsloo2py7c.jpg)
(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/5jv582_zpshxgvnypk.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2019, 04:07:13 AM
And something else:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/A-4X%20Study_zpsrtxfzxye.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: FAAMAN on April 06, 2019, 07:15:33 AM
Yes Wombatus twas you with one of those "suggestions", your infamy has been recorded for later use :icon_ninja:

GTX I saw the twin engined A-4/DC9 hybrid a few posts before, and I'm not sure that'd work as getting a pair of engines powerful and small enough to pod outside the main fuse would be an issue not to mention the severe aft CofG shift it would cause. If mounted further forward it may work but the "T" tail would be a big no no due the wing masking control inputs at low speeds and high angle of attack (like in landing). A big plus for this version would be the huge internal fuel tanks able to be fitted giving a huge range increase not to mention "black box room".

I love the A-4X SAAB Gripen mix, very cool indeed  8) 8)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 07, 2019, 04:02:09 AM
GTX I saw the twin engined A-4/DC9 hybrid a few posts before, and I'm not sure that'd work as getting a pair of engines powerful and small enough to pod outside the main fuse would be an issue not to mention the severe aft CofG shift it would cause.

It might work with something such as a Honeywell/ITEC F124 or Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour though getting the right balance of weight, thrust, full consumption etc would make it difficult to argue for.  Only reasons I could see (outside of the "it just looks cool" reason  ;)) would be if one specifically needed two engines for survivability reasons or even as a dedicated two engined trainer or, as you mentioned, one had plans for the leftover internal space for more fuel or other.



Taking some of this, one could potentially have a scenario such as this based around a different A-4AR Fightinghawk:

Argentina had a long history with the A-4 Skyhawk and in fact was the first foreign user of the Skyhawk in 1965.  Over the years the country suffered many challenges in supporting these aircraft ranging from embargoes through to losses during the Falklands War.  These along with a less than stellar national economic situation denied the resources needed to replace the venerable Skyhawk.  That said, the crews still worshipped the Skyhawk for its rugged simplicity and ability to punch above its weight time after time.

In 1989, Carlos Menem was elected President of Argentina and quickly established a pro-United States foreign policy.  Although the economic situation improved, the funds to purchase new combat aircraft remained unavailable.

Eventually in 1994, the United States agreed to a request to purchase 36 former US Marine Corps A-4M Skyhawks in a US$282 million deal that would be carried out by Lockheed Martin and included the privatization of the Fabrica Militar de Aviones (Military Aircraft Factory), which was renamed Lockheed Martin Aircraft Argentina SA afterward.  Fuerza Aérea Argentina technicians chose 32 A-4M and 4 TA-4F airframes from the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona to upgrade. Originally it was planned to simply overhaul of the airframe, wiring looms and the Pratt & Whitney J52P-408A engines however once the aircraft arrived in Argentina it was discovered that much more was needed.  Most importantly, not long after acquiring them Argentina like many others around the world were hit by a Pratt&Whitney announcement that the J52/JT8 had a major fatigue flaw requiring its immediate removal from service (P&W frustrated many in that it also decided to not continue production of the engine components thus preventing a simple change out of the affected items).

At first Argentina, like many others looked to copying the Singaporean Air Force and replacing the J52s with non-afterburning General Electric F404 turbofan engines.  However despite numerous requests including high level political delegations, the sale of the F404 to Argentina was denied.  For a long while, it looked like the Skyhawks' days were over.  Then there was a break through.  Argentine engineers in conjunction with their counterparts half a word away in Taiwan (another country that struggled with on-again/off-again US support for arms purchases) came up with an innovative proposal.  The A-4Ms would undergo a major redevelopment utilising many of the items from the Taiwanese AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo.  This included the F124 engine (the AIDC actually using an afterburning version of this designated the F125).  to get the necessary thrust, two F124s were to be used on the A-4.  These would be mounted in external pods on the rear fuselage.  Although somewhat ungainly looking, the resulting installation freed up much internal space in the fuselage allowing an increase of fuel load by 85%.

The resulting A-4AR Fightinghawk as it was soon designated also introduced a new radar (the same GD-53 Golden Dragon multi-mode monopulse pulse-Doppler radar as used in the F-CK-1) along with other new avionics and related from the Taiwanese.  Eventually entering service in August 1998, the Fightinghawk would continue the long Argentine A-4 story.

As a side note, not long after the Fightinghawks entered service, Argentina managed to find more funds and did the obvious, buying a squadron of F-CK-1s to serve alongside the A-4AR with the Fuerza Aérea Argentina.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on April 07, 2019, 06:30:38 AM
Yes Wombatus twas you with one of those "suggestions", your infamy has been recorded for later use :icon_ninja:

GTX I saw the twin engined A-4/DC9 hybrid a few posts before, and I'm not sure that'd work as getting a pair of engines powerful and small enough to pod outside the main fuse would be an issue not to mention the severe aft CofG shift it would cause. If mounted further forward it may work but the "T" tail would be a big no no due the wing masking control inputs at low speeds and high angle of attack (like in landing). A big plus for this version would be the huge internal fuel tanks able to be fitted giving a huge range increase not to mention "black box room".

I love the A-4X SAAB Gripen mix, very cool indeed  8) 8)

Maybe the CG problem could be helped by adding a plug to the fuselage between the cockpit and the intakes. It may not work improve the looks any.
BTW I’ve always thought of doing the engine pods with an F-86.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 07, 2019, 11:10:11 AM
Odd thought for the A-4, reduce the leading edge sweep on the outboard portions of the wing (much as the Chinese did on later J-7/MiG-21 variants) and mount launchers for IRAAMs (Sidewinders or equivalent) on the wingtips, freeing up under-wing hard points for more offensive stores.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on April 07, 2019, 04:51:06 PM
Speaking of twin engines:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/11130272_1583654455220773_4530630673141667880_n-2_zpsogjozvxc.jpg)

It's a beautiful looking aircraft/model Greg!!😮
I'd be the first to admit, I do prefer an attack aircraft having two engines for redundancy.......and never thought of a Skyhawk being so equipped!!


M.A.D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 07, 2019, 09:55:18 PM
Hmm! let me see now ---- there's a 1/100 scale A-10 available ----  hmm --- EDIT:  no maybe not --- I've got a 1/100 Global Express close by and I just did a comparison with the A-4 in my cabinet. I think that a 1/100 A-10 engines would be too big still. 1/144 though ----
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on April 07, 2019, 10:34:52 PM
Engines off some biz jet might work. Maybe that Honda jet. Those engines are tiny.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 08, 2019, 02:27:17 AM
Hmm! let me see now ---- there's a 1/100 scale A-10 available ----  hmm --- EDIT:  no maybe not --- I've got a 1/100 Global Express close by and I just did a comparison with the A-4 in my cabinet. I think that a 1/100 A-10 engines would be too big still. 1/144 though ----

Depending on which version of the Global Express was involved, a pair of nacelles/engines from a 1/100 one might be a close match for 1/48 F124s or RR Adours on a A-4.  Likewise, a 1/100 pair of TF-34s from an A-10 might also translate roughly into the right size to be 1/48 engines.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 08, 2019, 02:28:31 AM
Engines off some biz jet might work. Maybe that Honda jet. Those engines are tiny.

Yeah...tiny on thrust as well.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 08, 2019, 03:16:27 AM
Hmm! let me see now ---- there's a 1/100 scale A-10 available ----  hmm --- EDIT:  no maybe not --- I've got a 1/100 Global Express close by and I just did a comparison with the A-4 in my cabinet. I think that a 1/100 A-10 engines would be too big still. 1/144 though ----

Depending on which version of the Global Express was involved, a pair of nacelles/engines from a 1/100 one might be a close match for 1/48 F124s or RR Adours on a A-4.  Likewise, a 1/100 pair of TF-34s from an A-10 might also translate roughly into the right size to be 1/48 engines.

Not sure on which Global Express the model is based on, but it's a genuine Bombardier snap-together desktop kit. 
But all that nice info doesn't work for me though, I do 1/72 scale.  Mind you, the S-3 Viking had TF-34s too ----  ;)

I think a couple of nacelles from a 1/72 Hawker Domini might be better for a 1/72 kit bash.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tankmodeler on April 11, 2019, 10:05:42 PM
For twin engines without the rear CG issues, possibly a wing root twin layout like the Javelin or CF-100 Canuck?

A pair of PW-308s in the roots in big-ish nacelles with the jet pipe exiting just behind the trailing edge and the intake just ahead of the leading edge to alleviate any high AoA issues. High bypass may trade a titch of speed for a lot more range based on a lower cruise TSFC and using the central fuselage for new tankage. About 20% more thrust and the ability to curve the inlets to hide the fan face from radars (and also even out inlet flow) would also lower the RCS a modest amount.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on April 12, 2019, 03:00:32 AM
Anti-shiiping Skyhawk......
Taking some of this, one could potentially have a scenario such as this based around a different A-4AR Fightinghawk......

Potential centreline hardpoint ordnance:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2019, 04:08:36 AM
Definitely.  Or the Hsiung Feng-3 if it will fit.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on April 13, 2019, 03:45:27 AM
Definitely.  Or the Hsiung Feng-3 if it will fit.

I'm a bit skeptical about the existence of an air-launched HF-3 paper project.  The HF-3 is nowhere near Moskit-level big but is still quite a bit bigger than the HF-2.

(https://i.imgur.com/w2qxuFe.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 28, 2019, 08:59:02 PM
Stumbled upon this page. The AQM-37 photo is from here on page 3.

The Airfix Tribute Forum:  Airfix 1/72 Douglas A4B/4P Skyhawk (A03029)

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-72-douglas-a4b-4p-skyhawk-a03029-t47356.html?sid=21b9b0d4f2e48f1a6e4d20ff0324f7e6 (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-72-douglas-a4b-4p-skyhawk-a03029-t47356.html?sid=21b9b0d4f2e48f1a6e4d20ff0324f7e6)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: FAAMAN on April 29, 2019, 06:29:04 PM
That's my accuracy thread for the Airfix A-4B Skyhawk Big Gimper!!!!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2020, 04:23:37 AM
(https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/22b/A-4EC%20Scooter%201.jpg)
(https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/80b/A-4EC%20Scooter%206.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 12, 2020, 05:50:13 AM
I wonder how much of a weight and balance issue would be created by installing an F-18 windscreen and canopy along with the installation of a 20mm (M197) Three-Barrel Gatling Gun in the nose?  Have the gun mounted the same location and attitude as the Vulcan in the F-18 to fire over the top of the nose.  Yeah, it might not be practical but it would make for an interesting what-if.  Of course, it goes without saying that with the new nose mounted gun that the wing root cannon features would be removed. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2020, 01:59:44 AM
Not sure about that sort of more radical surgery but there was this option to get more firepower in the 20mm range:  the Mk 4 HIPEG gun pod with twin 20mm cannon and 750 rounds of ammunition (for comparison, the standard A-4 20mm cannon only had 100 rounds/gun):

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Mk_4_gun_pod_on_A4D-2_Skyhawk_c1958.jpg/1571px-Mk_4_gun_pod_on_A4D-2_Skyhawk_c1958.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Mk_4_gun_pod_20mm_cannons_c1958.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/HIPEG1.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/HIPEG2.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/HIPEG3.jpg)

And BTW, one can get the Mk 4 HIPEG gun pod in these sets:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8GKh5ftJtKW28ADrsmJh8wA0QIjrw5PUmJjzdZoI3SmLk09cp&usqp=CAc)
(http://www.hasegawa-model.co.jp/hsite/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/X72-2.jpg)

and in 1/32, there is this resin one from AMS Resin:

(https://www.bnamodelworld.com/bmz_cache/2/21f9a89026b79923206a210b187d1c3c.image.744x950.jpg)

Put 3 pods on the Skyhawk and you have a pocket gunslinger!  Or perhaps that should be "pocket battleship" ;)?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2020, 02:14:39 AM
Of course, for another whiff, there is this from he who shall not be named:

(http://www.combatreform.org/oa4mskyhawkmodelreadytolaunch.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/oa4mskyhawkmodelcockpit.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/oa4mskyhawktrailersideview.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/oa4mskyhawkmodeldiagonal.jpg)
(http://www.combatreform.org/oa4mskyhawkmodelrearview.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 13, 2020, 03:59:03 AM
"He who shall not be named" LolololololololoZ
I have not seen his handiwork in quite a while. 

Would love to see him together in a cage match with several other opinionated wankers that shall also not be named.   All of them armed with box cutters, I would pay to watch that!

Have plenty of the HIPEG bits from the Hasegawa weapons kits and they are quite the plinking weapon/range toy.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: FAAMAN on April 13, 2020, 08:53:47 AM
I like the A-4 model in greys although I'd not like to be the pilot with the canopy open whilst airborne as the air tear off initiation of the ejection seat would surely follow and "out you go!!"  :o

An A-4 of any marque would have some serious structural and stability issues if you attempted to mount an M-61 cannon ala F-18 in the front. For starters there would be nowhere to mount the displaced  avionics. There is VERY little room in an A-4 as it is and being so physically small an airframe you'd need one large dorsal avionics hump to accommodate all the displaced items trying not to seriously affect drag. Not to mention that the nose wheel when retracted is just ahead of the pilot's feet within an inch or so of the forward pressure bulkhead. that the avionics nose attaches to. Then you'd have to worry about the CofG being seriously compromised by the weight of the gun and it's ammo magazine. The horizontal tail in it's standard form (nearly identical in every A-4 apart form mod states) would not have enough control authority to overcome the "heavy" nose trim for normal flight so it would need to be enlarged in surface area/span.

The US Army trialed a pair of A-4C's (and Fiat G-91's) for rough field close air support missions with dual main wheels retracting into fairings where there would normally be the main gear doors.

That's a cool OA-4M model and an interesting concept but just no way could an A-4 with that weight taxi "rough field" with single mains, it would just simply sink into the ground. Why the US Army trials aircraft had dual main wheels. I'm not sure if I should've commented on this though, due to the comments from GTX and Jeffry Fontaine, I do hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes :smiley:

An A-4 strafer would be VERY interesting, although it would seriously deplete an A-4's range as she'd only have her 5200lbs of internal fuel in a single seater or 4200lbs in a T-bird. Would need tanker support to stay on task for any length of time.
The following stores load could be fitted to any A-4 with 5 external stations. So late mod A-4B's on . . . . .
The pod could only be carried on three stations, 2, 4 & 5 due to weight limitations of the outboard wing stations to 500lb max carriage.
So you'd have a total of eight 20mm cannon hanging from an A-4 "Gunboat", with maybe an AIM-9B Sidewinder hung from Station 1 and an LAU-9 19 shot rocket pod on Station 5  :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

From Wiki,
:Mk 4 Mod 0
Developed by the US Navy, this pod is fitted with the Mk 11 Mod 5 20 mm cannon, along with 750 rounds of ammunition.[20] This pod is said to have been used on a variety of US Navy and Marine Corps aircraft including the A-4 Skyhawk, F-4 Phantom II, A-7 Corsair II, and OV-10 Bronco.[1] Approximately 1200 Mk 4 Gun Pods were manufactured by Hughes Tool Company, later Hughes Helicopter, in Culver City, California. While the system was tested and certified for use on the A-4, the A-6, the A-7, the F-4, and the OV-10, it only saw extended use on the A-4, the F-4, and the OV-10. In the case of the OV-10, the unit was used by VAL-4, a Navy squadron assigned to Bình Thủy District, Vietnam, and was used extensively for close air support missions."

No one's mentioned the A4D-4 low level attack version with swept folding wings and Whitcomb Bodies or the long winged extended span A-4F with a 55' wing span, nor the submarine-launched proposal.

Cheers fellow Scooter freaks errr, fans  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 13, 2020, 10:13:56 AM
Maybe it is time to jumbo-ize/super size the Skyhawk though the wonders of Scale-O-Rama.  48th scale A-4 to a 1:72nd scale what-if or a 32nd scale A-4 to a 1:48th what-if.  Get plenty of room for the pilot and other luxuries. 
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 17, 2020, 09:23:16 PM
An engineering question if I may in relation to the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk?

For a long time I’ve been intrigued with the modified ‘wing-folded’ Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, that was used by the US Navy for public relations purposes.

I greatly appreciate that the wing design of the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk is in itself integral to the amazingly clever design by Ed Heinemann. Am I correct in saying/thinking that the wing fuel tank itself makes up part of the integral strength/structure of the wing itself, as opposed to it being simply located in the wing? If so, by added a wing-fold arrangement, as shown in the picture, would it still be feasible that the out section of the wing-fold could still effectively contain fuel? Alas, I assume that the Skyhawk would lose some of its weapons load capacity on the outer wing hardpoint as a consequence?

Does anyone know the actual fuel capacity of the Skyhawk’s wing tank?

Going by the attached pictures, does anyone have an idea or take an educated guess as to the measurement at the point of the wing-fold and hence the overall wingspan when folded in this configuration?
With such a wing-folded arrangement, how much capability - range, weapons load do you think one would sacrifice as consequence of the engineering modification?

Ok and for the give away for this overall exercise, how many of these modified wing-folded Skyhawk’s would you estimate could comfortably be embarked on a Majestic class carrier?

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 17, 2020, 09:43:29 PM
My mate, FAAMAN, would be the dude to ask. He worked on our A-4G's back ... ooh, too long ago to mention ... let's just say "when I was working on S-2E/G's". ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on August 18, 2020, 01:08:59 AM
Another question is what happens to the wing leading edge slats? This fold mechanism cuts them right in half. Where these actual flying aircraft or mock-ups for display purposes?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 18, 2020, 01:13:57 AM
Another question is what happens to the wing leading edge slats? This fold mechanism cuts them right in half. Where these actual flying aircraft or mock-ups for display purposes?
The Skyhawk was rendered incapable of flight once the wing spars were cut to crate the folding feature.  This is why you see it being hauled around on the flatbed trailer.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on August 18, 2020, 01:23:17 AM
Here is some more info and pics.
http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/Truck.htm (http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/Truck.htm)
I have no exact figures but it seems to me this modification would severely limit the Skyhawks. The increased weight and loss of fuel would make it impractical.
But this is whiff world so you build what you want the way you want and have fun doing it!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 04:54:13 AM
My mate, FAAMAN, would be the dude to ask. He worked on our A-4G's back ... ooh, too long ago to mention ... let's just say "when I was working on S-2E/G's". ;)

It's technical experience and point of view would  be great appreciated Old Wombat 😯👍

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 05:03:06 AM
Another question is what happens to the wing leading edge slats? This fold mechanism cuts them right in half. Where these actual flying aircraft or mock-ups for display purposes?

Great and importantly overlooked technical point on my behalf kerick!!
Is there any reason that they couldn't be configured as a two-peice system? I appriciate that it would require additional actuators and the likes, adding weight and complication.....but saying this, the model of Skyhawk I have planned as part of my Alternative ADF ORBAT will in fact compensate for these additional weight gains....

I also concur with Jeffry Fontaine on terms of the nature of the displays....I read somewhere that they where actually written off aircraft, gutted and modified for such purpose.....


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 05:10:09 AM
Here is some more info and pics.
[url]http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/Truck.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/A4/Truck/Truck.htm[/url])
I have no exact figures but it seems to me this modification would severely limit the Skyhawks. The increased weight and loss of fuel would make it impractical.
But this is whiff world so you build what you want the way you want and have fun doing it!


Great and valid points kerick
As for "the increased weight and loss of fuel would make it impractical", the model of Skyhawk I have planned as part of my Alternative ADF ORBAT will in fact compensate for these additional weight gains.... The oddity is, I'm under the impression that the Skyhawk was limited in terms of its full combat potential weapons/fuel load, when operating from the Majestic class carrier regardless, be it Australian, Argentinian or Brazilian...Can't say I've ever seen a Majestic-based Skyhawk on the cat bombed up like that of a US Navy Skyhawk on one of their ownarger and more capable carrier's...


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on August 18, 2020, 05:20:49 AM
I suppose sense that leading edge slats were actuated by their own weight pulling them down and forward while air pressure at certain airspeed pushed them back you could redesign the rails they moved on to hold two sections per wing. That’s why you see many pics of parked or taxing Skyhawks with the slats down. Except the Blue Angles as theirs were fixed in the up position to prevent accidental movements while flying in close formation. Maybe not that big of a deal but would add some weight.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 06:39:14 AM
Thanks for the clarification of the leading edge slats arrangement kerick, I have some idea of their principle and purpose, but not so much the terminology. 😞
I'm assuming that leading edge slats would remain critically important, what with the small size of the Majestic-class deck size/length, take off lift and approach speed......

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 18, 2020, 08:47:06 AM
I do know that the leading edge slats were gravity operated (un-controlled) & were even known to kick out at inopportune moments under sufficiently high positive g-loadings - which would be one reason the Blue Angels fixed theirs in position. In a high-g turn it wasn't unknown for one slat to jam open , making flying the aircraft a bit of a chore.

I can, also, say that fitting a (proper) wing-fold system would almost completely eliminate your wing fuel tankage without reducing weight, due to the extra load-bearing ribs & hydraulics systems required, & I'm fairly sure the fold on that display version is right on/next to a hard-point, too, thus making it impossible to use & reducing weapons load.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 10:30:21 AM
I can, also, say that fitting a (proper) wing-fold system would almost completely eliminate your wing fuel tankage without reducing weight, due to the extra load-bearing ribs & hydraulics systems required, & I'm fairly sure the fold on that display version is right on/next to a hard-point, too, thus making it impossible to use & reducing weapons load.

So the wing-fold would have to be dictated by the  wing hardpoints.

Again, going by the Majestic-class catapult capability/stroke length, short flight deck etc, I'm presuming that the A-4's maximum takeoff capabilities fuel and weapons load would never really been achieved regardless of wing-fold limitations...so I'm pondering whether this reduction in hardpoint capacity is really going to adversely effect the existing launch of the Skyhawk, if you know what I mean?

I'm still trying to find a picture of an Australian, Argentinian or Brazilian carrier-based Skyhawk with the heaviest weapons/drop tank etc....so as to emphasise what I'm trying to explain....

Oh, as for the reduced fuel issue pertaining to a reduced wing fuel tank, I have some ideas of compensation 😯😉


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on August 18, 2020, 12:16:01 PM
The issue with carrier borne aircraft is less an issue of how many can you carry and more an
issue of how many can you operate and how efficiently.

More aircraft = more pilots, more aviation fuel, more ordnance etc., more support crew across the
board and increased strain on the ship's systems. There are reasons why at a certain point the naval
air services start talking about adding bottoms rather than just adding aircraft.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kerick on August 18, 2020, 12:55:15 PM
Maybe a nice conformal fuel tank under the fuselage like the proposed F-4 Phantom upgrade. Add small hard points to the tank for individual Mk 82 500lb bombs.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50239464296_0c8e064fa8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxuoqh)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 01:36:26 PM
The issue with carrier borne aircraft is less an issue of how many can you carry and more an
issue of how many can you operate and how efficiently.

More aircraft = more pilots, more aviation fuel, more ordnance etc., more support crew across the
board and increased strain on the ship's systems. There are reasons why at a certain point the naval
air services start talking about adding bottoms rather than just adding aircraft.

Thanks for your validd contribution jcf, I completely agree with this sensible enalogy.

What I'm trying to achieve is to supplement the inherent limitations of the Majestic-class' size and the effectiveness, as a cost effective carrier.
As much as I appriciate that the A-4G was acquired by the RAN prodomantly for air defence purposes, with a secondary attack role, the size of the Grumman S-2 Tracker would have encroached into the usable deck and hanger space of its Majestic class. Without wanting to give too much away from the backstory, I'm trying to achieve a more balanced carrier air group, which includes ASW aircraft, AEW, and fighter-bomber platforms - working on the premises of HMAS Melbourne's embarked air group peaked in about 1972, with four Skyhawks, six Trackers, and ten Westland Sea King.... So I'm thinking this must have been determined by the RAN the minimum effective allocation of given aircraft types to effectively conduct operations...with this I'm trying to fit at least two fixed-wing AEW aircraft, hence my attempt to make such room aboard the Majestic-class with folding-wing Skyhawk's. Add to this my want to add more flexibility to the RAN's carrier doctrine, by making Melbourne and her sister ship 😉 more swing-type carrier's, in which given certain circumstances/mission requirements, one or both of these RAN Majestic-class carrier's could be optimised for strike, ASW or a balanced mission profiles. So I'm working invite notion that if the ADF requires a long-range or sustained strike capability, a greater number of folded-wing  Skyhawk's could be embarked with minimal preparations, with say six Tracker's and six Sea Kings being taken off and replaced an air group of say twelve folded-wing Skyhawk's, two AEW aircraft four Tracker's and four Sea Kings, or something to that effect.....

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 01:40:06 PM
Maybe a nice conformal fuel tank under the fuselage like the proposed F-4 Phantom upgrade. Add small hard points to the tank for individual Mk 82 500lb bombs.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50239464296_0c8e064fa8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxuoqh)

kerick, we're obviously on the same wave length my friend - conformal tank is part of my thought process, which I won't give to much away, for the sake of my backstory in Alternative ADF ORBAT 😉

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 18, 2020, 02:07:25 PM
Don't forget that the inner hard points, the ones you'd be losing, are the wet hard points, so you lose your capacity to carry drop tanks. They're also rated for the heaviest weapons load-out, too.

In all honesty, adding a wing fold to a Skyhawk is a losing proposition, with a negligible gain in reduced deck footprint being traded for considerable net loss across structural strength, weapons capacity, weight, range, agility & speed. Adding a conformal tank, say in the form of the "hump" common with A-4F's-&-beyond, would just increase the weight disadvantage.

It's a small aircraft, with a small deck footprint. So, unless your carrier is even smaller than a Majestic, there's no real reason to make it smaller.

I'm fairly sure, they could operate from Melbourne with their full combat load-out (or near it) but didn't unnecessarily (& I'm also fairly sure it was the condition of the deck which limited their capacity in later years - it wasn't good :-X).

As much as I, a Tracker Whacker, hate to say it, Ed Heinemann designed an excellent little attack fighter which is extremely difficult to improve upon.


PS: I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy but the Skyhawk was selected by the RAN as its Fleet Air Defence fighter because it was the largest aircraft capable of performing that function successfully from the Melbourne. The FAD role requires the fighter to have the ability to fly off the deck carrying a full fuel load, including 2 drop tanks, & a full weapons load, including guns & 2 x AIM-9 Sidewinders. The A-4G could do that.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 05:19:20 PM
Well Old Wombat, I can't argue with your practical knowledge and experience of carrier ops and the Melbourne.

Your statement "Don't forget that the inner hard points, the ones you'd be losing, are the wet hard points, so you lose your capacity to carry drop tanks. They're also rated for the heaviest weapons load-out, too." has gutted my perception and thought process, as I appriciate how critically important these two main plumbed hardpoints are.
If I persist in this designs pursuit, would you be inclined to support the notion of incorporating the wing-fold arrangement in between the 'main' and 'outer' hardpoints, so as to eleviate the loss of the critically important 'wet'/plumbed hardpoint? Granted by doing this eliminates much of what I'm attempting to achieve in terms of space saving, but it would still be a slight gain all the same (also think it will leave the majority of wing tank in place...)

As for your analogy of "Adding a conformal tank, say in the form of the "hump" common with A-4F's-&-beyond, would just increase the weight disadvantage.", what is it with everyone reading my mind today?😯😉😂 For this is exactly what I had in mind, as a means of compensation for the wing tank volume loss.

"I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy", Nah, all good mate, I'm happy to take and obsorb your common sense and experience 👍

As a side note, if I may I've read that the RAN A-4G's "lacked the A-4F's ability to operate guided air-to-ground weapons.". Also of interest for my Alternative ADF ORBAT is the RAN's decision not to operate it's two-seat TA-4G trainers from Melbourne, "as their flight characteristics meant that they could not safely take off from the ship in the event of a "bolter" landing."
From the forums perspective, was there away around this issue of the TA-4G's flight characteristics? Or was it more about the size of the Majestic-class in general? Did Brazil or Argentina operate two-seat Skyhawk's from their Majestic-class carriers??

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 18, 2020, 05:39:18 PM
Only 4 EA-4F's appear to have been built.   Was there a foreign market for them in smaller air forces?


I suppose given their training focus they weren't ever really considered.  Mind you a dedicated EA-4 with say a pair of AN/ALQ-99 pods (see below) might be interesting to see:

([url]http://wiki.scramble.nl/images/1/1e/20060221_cvn71_usnv_t_s_jvb_mt01_4103_alq99.jpg[/url])


With much of the associated RWR/ECM systems located in a specially modified Douglas D704 Buddy Pack refueling Pod, mounted on the centreline hardpoint.


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on August 18, 2020, 08:07:34 PM
... would you be inclined to support the notion of incorporating the wing-fold arrangement in between the 'main' and 'outer' hardpoints, so as to eleviate the loss of the critically important 'wet'/plumbed hardpoint?

If push came to shove, I'd suggest folds outboard of the outer hardpoints. Either way you're going to have to find a way to mechanically unify & synchronise the slats. Even less space saved but much easier technically.

As a side note, if I may I've read that the RAN A-4G's "lacked the A-4F's ability to operate guided air-to-ground weapons.".

True, but a conscious decision given that the RAN wanted the A-4G to be a Fleet Air Defence fighter, not an attack fighter (ie: optimised for air-to-air combat, rather than ground attack), so gave up the ability to operate air-to-surface missiles in favour of being able to operate air-to-air missiles (which other A-4's of the time couldn't).


Regarding the T-birds, I couldn't really tell you but I'd hazard that they were, generally, heavier with much of that extra mass being in the nose & that to fly at an appropriate landing speed for Melbourne they had to approached with a much greater nose-up attitude, making it hard to spot the deck, & much nearer their stall speed ..... but that's just me guessing.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kelmola on August 18, 2020, 08:29:38 PM
With much of the associated RWR/ECM systems located in a specially modified Douglas D704 Buddy Pack refueling Pod, mounted on the centreline hardpoint.
Didn't they use a similar solution with the EF-10 Skyknight before factory-made ALQ pods became available? I have a hazy recollection of seeing a photo of one with a standard droptank on one pylon and a droptank-like (and size) shape but with a couple fin aerials jutting out of odd places on the other.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2020, 03:17:54 AM
I have merged the wing fold A-4G discussion from the Engineering Dept into this thread.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2020, 03:32:00 AM
Whilst the A-4Gs were mainly for air defence (and carried up to 4 AIM-9s for it (as per below):

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/McDonnell_Douglas_A_4G_Skyhawk_Australia_Navy_AN0654901.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/1346042_large.jpg)

They could seemingly also use unguided rockets and dumb bombs though these would appear to be a rarity:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/1346047_large.jpg)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/1063529_large.jpg)

As for fitting on the HMAS Melbourne, I don't believe wing folding would add much benefit (ignoring the engineering implications) as it didn't seem to have much issue carrying what it needed anyway:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/4113416.JPG)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/b4f6a7a1f24a89a7243ba26e5b696da9.jpg)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/FlyOneFull.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2020, 03:39:40 AM
Looking a little further at the RAN A-4G's air defence capabilities, I wonder if one could 'shoehorn' something such as the radar (and even IR seeker) from a F-8 Crusader into the nose of a A-4G and thus , with the addition of AIM-9Cs, give it more all weather capability?  Sure it might have a big nose...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kelmola on August 19, 2020, 06:02:45 AM
Looking a little further at the RAN A-4G's air defence capabilities, I wonder if one could 'shoehorn' something such as the radar (and even IR seeker) from a F-8 Crusader into the nose of a A-4G and thus , with the addition of AIM-9Cs, give it more all weather capability?  Sure it might have a big nose...
The answer is probably "yes", because IRL A-4K Kahu (ironically, former A-4G's) and A-4AR Fightinghawk had the AN/APG-66 radar in the nose, which is the same as in F-16A/B. Of course the "black boxes" of the -66 benefit from miniaturization of electronics compared to the AN/APQ-84 and -94 in F-8, but at least there is an IRL precedent for installing an air-to-air capable radar into the A-4.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 19, 2020, 11:38:49 AM

The AN/APG-53A was predominantly a air-to-surface system wasn't it?
I was wondering if the Magnavox AN/APQ-94 fire control radar of the Vought F-8E Crusader would be able to be installed in the RAN's A-4G Skyhawk's? Im thinking incorporating its systems (black boxes) might deem the fitting of the camel hump (which the RAN had eliminated on its variant) to relocate systems and subsystem which would be displaced in the nose/forward fuselage area!
The thing I like about the Magnavox AN/APQ-94, is that its already an 'all-weather' tested and proven navalised system, and it would support the Aim-9C radar-guided Sidewinder variant - giving my RAN Skyhawk two 20mm cannon, 2 x Aim-9B (IR-guided) and 2 x Aim-9C (Radar-guided) Sidewinder AAM's!

I was contemplating including the F-8E's IRST sensor, thinking it would be an additional sensor (especially over vast open water), but from what I've read it was of limited reliability! So it might not have been worth the pain in the balls to incorporate into the little Scooter!

M.A.D

No argument from me GTX 😉😂

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 20, 2020, 02:19:44 AM
 :smiley:

Will need to look up exact dimensions of the various Crusader radar options.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on August 20, 2020, 03:24:34 AM

The AN/APG-53A was predominantly a air-to-surface system wasn't it?

The information link I got from Jon, when I was building my AF-82 project and wanted to have it have this radar, didn't really say it was better in ats mode or in ata.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 21, 2020, 01:02:51 AM
Would be useful to have a publication that details the development history, performance specs and related for all radars.  Might have to do some research...
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 22, 2020, 07:08:26 AM
Been looking around regards the radar Greg, but I haven't had much joy.

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on August 22, 2020, 09:53:25 AM
GTX, probably not what you're spacifically after, in terms of details, but it's a little more than I've been able to find thus far....

Quote
"The F-8D and F-8E versions are sometimes referred to as ‘all-weather fighters’, but this is a bit overplayed.
All fighters of this era needed either a surface radar station or an airborne radar platform to find the enemy at longer range and guide the fighter to a point where it could lock on to the enemy and take over the intercept itself. While the initial version of the Crusader, the F-8A, possessed nothing more than a ranging radar for its guns, Crusaders beginning with the B model had air-intercept radars. The F-8C’s AN/APS-67 could lock on to a target at 16 miles, but with “no angle tracking.” Al Lansdowne found the F-8D’s
AN/APQ-83 to be an improvement,19 but Jim Alderink, one of the first Top Gun instructors,
regarded that radar to be a piece of garbage, and it did not help that pilots did not get enough
time to train in using the radar in flight.
The F-8E’s AN/APQ-94 could detect aircraft at longer ranges than those on earlier marks of
the F-8, and the ‘screen resolution’ was “somewhat better”, making it easier for pilots to use.
It could detect a MiG-sized aircraft as far out as 30 miles,22 and it might detect a larger
aircraft at 50-60 miles. VF-53 found the “APQ-94 reliability [to be] high, and routine
BARCAP/FORCECAP tactics were predicated on its utilization.” Pilots relied on it during night operations but emphasized visual searches during daytime. The AN/APQ-94 could
track targets 45 degrees off centerline and 30 degrees down, and it included upgrades to
improve its abilities against MiGs: “guns automatic ranging only and . . . boresight angle
track.” The radar could achieve a lock-on at 25 miles, and functioned in the “X-band frequency between 8,700 and 9,600 megacyles”. The F-8E also had an AN/AAS-15 infrared search and track system which displayed the azimuth of the target on the radar screen.
When Vought upgraded 136 F-8Es to the F-8J variant, the avionics that came with it received
mixed reviews from the fleet. According to one veteran the new radar was not reliable. The
Fleet Replacement Squadron, VF-124, found that “Although all modified F-8Js were fitted
with an updated radar (the APQ-124 which replaced the APQ-94) which increased
performance, range, and reliability, it was discovered that the modulators in the new radar
failed frequently; thus, many fitted radar systems remained un-repaired while new modulators
were supplied to fleet squadrons having higher priority on parts replacement.”
A veteran of the first squadron to take F-8Js to the Tonkin Gulf, John Braly of VF-162, had nothing good.to say about this variant. According to Braly, “The project test pilot, LCDR Ken Billue, had recommended it was NOT ready for fleet use, too many problems.” Braly noted that this was second hand information. He added, “I think the feelings of most of us that had good F-8 experience was that they took a perfectly good plane, the F-8E, and really screwed it up with added weight, a heavy Magnavox pulse-doppler radar that never worked, the BLC [boundary layer control] which slowed it up, but required too much power to maintain the glide slope.and left nothing but after-burner to wave-off if needed, and downsizing of our 20mm ammo
cans to make room for worthless ECM gear.”

(Source: Prof Michael Weaver. An Examination of the F-8 Crusader through Archival Sources. Journal of Aeronautical History Paper No. 2018/02)


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2020, 02:45:20 AM
I suppose an alternative is to simply have a AN/APG-53C development for the A-4G that gives the AN/APG-53A an air-to-air capability, perhaps even foregoing the surface modes.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2020, 02:46:47 AM
Useful source of information:  https://skyhawk.org/article/-technical-data
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 01:06:12 AM
Canadian:

(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520A/RCN%2520A-4E%2520SKYHAWK.01_zpscjfomty2.jpg&key=6b2d1fbc5bf324d4d43375e599c97d13596e19c529df3f999ed6235b222fdce3)

Italian:

(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520A/AMI%2520A-4E%2520SKYHAWK.01_zpsqjte10mi.jpg&key=e2713350decc8903d9b1285998a22892643644ad57e7511bb2bd6aec0874d508)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 01:31:51 AM
Netherlands:

(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_05_2017/post-89464-0-22638600-1495055619.jpg)

Denmark:

(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_05_2017/post-89464-0-43118600-1495055629.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 02:57:16 AM
Austrian:

(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520B/AUSTRIA%2520A-4G%2520SKYHAWK.01_zpshexvpmhp.jpg&key=ee1bdf0ee8a5843256fd812a19893a1da6a7cde8adeb23e0c7846ed2b1a73c59)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kim margosein on September 28, 2020, 10:33:06 AM
IIRC, there was a Douglas brochure showing paintings of Skyhawks in Netherlands Navy, RAN, RCN, and Indian Navy markings.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: gogs007 on September 30, 2020, 02:27:59 AM
Reading the axis of time books, they have Skyhawks in the alternative ww2. It might be interesting to do one in ww2 camo and markings.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 30, 2020, 03:16:28 AM
Reading the axis of time books, they have Skyhawks in the alternative ww2. It might be interesting to do one in ww2 camo and markings.

I don't recall that - will need to go re-read.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 30, 2020, 03:26:51 AM
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-3782-0-82077500-1385174701.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-3782-0-52079900-1385174704.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: gogs007 on September 30, 2020, 01:30:37 PM
Reading the axis of time books, they have Skyhawks in the alternative ww2. It might be interesting to do one in ww2 camo and markings.

I don't recall that - will need to go re-read.
It’s in the last one final impact
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 01:51:40 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:19:57 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/RAFA-4ESKYHAWK02_zpsbc2ab4d2.jpg&key=0b787f9d3d896f7a7895070e117434a8615a22dd249cc1f006f7f61759aa7d6a)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:28:14 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/BAFA-4KSKYHAWK15_zps14ae99db.jpg&key=e4a4e18899ad4f49316236acdd33938cb0099e83be7c733497ee9921753e690b)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 01, 2020, 11:25:37 AM
Skyhawk instead of the Alfa Jet?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2020, 02:47:20 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i.imgur.com/9jB7Din.jpg&key=66085afe368db5c488dcc39845b29aa290735abb4a3121e78d79438af639b461)
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i.imgur.com/M5yFgIK.jpg&key=fcf70524068fdb50db3f4c97264c185922c18fa3f21f45476516ddf5e97b5f7e)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on October 05, 2020, 03:02:08 AM
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-3782-0-82077500-1385174701.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-3782-0-52079900-1385174704.jpg)

I like the twin Sidewinder AAM arrangement 😯

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 16, 2020, 12:05:57 AM
For the A-4G, Australia specifies cannon already in their inventory to ease logistics concerns.  Would the choice be the ADEN as carried by the Avon-Sabres or the DEFA as carried by the Mirage IIIOs and which Israel fitted to their A-4H aircraft?  I could see British A-4s being armed with ADEN cannons.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on October 16, 2020, 11:40:21 AM
For the A-4G, Australia specifies cannon already in their inventory to ease logistics concerns.  Would the choice be the ADEN as carried by the Avon-Sabres or the DEFA as carried by the Mirage IIIOs and which Israel fitted to their A-4H aircraft?  I could see British A-4s being armed with ADEN cannons.

They came with, & retained the standard Colt 20mm cannons but DEFAs are the most likely candidates, as the A-4Gs entered service at about the same time (but shortly after) the RAAF introduced the Mirage IIIO.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on October 17, 2020, 08:16:09 AM
For the A-4G, Australia specifies cannon already in their inventory to ease logistics concerns.  Would the choice be the ADEN as carried by the Avon-Sabres or the DEFA as carried by the Mirage IIIOs and which Israel fitted to their A-4H aircraft?  I could see British A-4s being armed with ADEN cannons.

They came with, & retained the standard Colt 20mm cannons but DEFAs are the most likely candidates, as the A-4Gs entered service at about the same time (but shortly after) the RAAF introduced the Mirage IIIO.

Makes sense gents, and as the Israeli showed, it was doable. The 30mm round had far greater destructive effect than the 20mm - something Israel inherently respected and appreciated.
In my Alternative ADF ORBAT , I have Aussie A-4's with ADEN's.


MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 17, 2020, 11:33:26 AM
That makes sense since, IIRC, the ADEN and DEFA share the same ammunition.  *wicked chuckle* I can just imagine the French reaction to a Mirage IIIO with an Avon engine and ADEN cannons replacing the DEFA cannons.

Turning to my comment on the Macchi trainer thread, if most of the other Australian combat aircraft were using DEFA cannon, I could see the MB326KH also doing so; ontra-wise if most of the others were using ADEN cannon.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 18, 2020, 02:39:31 AM
That makes sense since, IIRC, the ADEN and DEFA share the same ammunition.  *wicked chuckle* I can just imagine the French reaction to a Mirage IIIO with an Avon engine and ADEN cannons replacing the DEFA cannons.

Add in British Air-to-air missiles as well... ;)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 18, 2020, 04:08:24 AM
That makes sense since, IIRC, the ADEN and DEFA share the same ammunition.  *wicked chuckle* I can just imagine the French reaction to a Mirage IIIO with an Avon engine and ADEN cannons replacing the DEFA cannons.

Add in British Air-to-air missiles as well... ;)
That really cries out to be built.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 18, 2020, 04:04:53 PM
And a non after burning Spey or Olympus?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on October 18, 2020, 06:37:30 PM
And a non after burning Spey or Olympus?
Douglas (or it might have been McDonnell Douglas) offered a non-afterburning Spey variant of the Skyhawk, but you're probably already aware of that Volkodav

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 19, 2020, 12:14:03 AM
And a non after burning Spey or Olympus?
Douglas (or it might have been McDonnell Douglas) offered a non-afterburning Spey variant of the Skyhawk, but you're probably already aware of that Volkodav

MAD
I have a copy of that brochure; very interesting reading since it includes drawings showing the changes from a "stock" A-4.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on October 20, 2020, 04:18:48 AM
And a non after burning Spey or Olympus?
Douglas (or it might have been McDonnell Douglas) offered a non-afterburning Spey variant of the Skyhawk, but you're probably already aware of that Volkodav

MAD
I have a copy of that brochure; very interesting reading since it includes drawings showing the changes from a "stock" A-4.
😯

MAD
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on November 04, 2020, 05:51:55 AM
What-if 1/48 Hobbycraft RCN A-4CN Sea Eagle

([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/01.jpg[/url])

([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/04.jpg[/url])

Backstory and more photos here at ARC Air: [url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm[/url] ([url]http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14490-A-4-Dompierre/00.shtm[/url])


I just scored a Trumpeter A-4...RCN Falklands here we go!
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 22, 2022, 08:00:22 PM
Oval nose intake Skyhawk

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/A4G_ovalIT.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/9abad265-f63f-47a3-bb1b-0529d7c4d8b8)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on February 23, 2022, 02:05:33 PM
So~ in light of recent events, some authors in Japan decided to ride the bandwagon......

Japanese mercenary/volunteer v.s. PLAAF over Taiwan.  Preview sources HERE (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4886465814773147&id=384720694947704)

The A-4 is a Super-Super Skyhawk powered by a F414-EPE afterburning turbofan.  The nose looks a tad small for a radar-equipped variant, but since the book is rather upfront about going for an A-4 v.s. Su-35 showdown, I think the author might be trying to primarily emulate the Brazilian AF-1 in terms of sensors and other equipment fit.

The Su-35 is just being a Su-35.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on February 23, 2022, 04:35:11 PM
Super-Super Skyhawk powered by a F414-EPE afterburning turbofan.  Would been heck of a deal in Vietnam.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on March 07, 2022, 04:54:26 AM
No fire control radar.

(The title reads "Return of the Flying Tigers")
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on August 09, 2022, 11:26:18 PM
SkyHawk as a proper fighter with a propos radar missils etc... Being tested by US Marines but intended to equip any south american second class carrier, hence the generic "MARINA"

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/FullFighterSkyHawk.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/73150d89-3770-4119-83c6-d721d12ec283)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on August 10, 2022, 04:52:02 AM
SkyHawk as a proper fighter with a propos radar missils etc...
;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Kahu
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on March 05, 2023, 03:00:15 PM
New Zealand Super Skyhawk

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/SuperSkyhawk_NZ.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/SuperSkyhawk_NZ.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on March 07, 2023, 05:49:09 AM
Oh that is cool.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on March 08, 2023, 02:10:47 AM
Spanish Skyhawk

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/A-4_spain.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/A-4_spain.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 08, 2023, 12:24:42 PM
SkyHawk as a proper fighter with a propos radar missils etc... Being tested by US Marines but intended to equip any south american second class carrier, hence the generic "MARINA"

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/FullFighterSkyHawk.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/73150d89-3770-4119-83c6-d721d12ec283)
ose and radar from a Hawk 200?
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on March 09, 2023, 03:41:46 PM
Yes... :smiley: :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 09, 2023, 04:56:24 PM
Sweet,,, super good  :smiley:  :smiley:
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on March 10, 2023, 05:00:30 AM
HERE (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4886465814773147&id=384720694947704)

And ... what about the female pilot?  :-*  :-*
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 27, 2023, 04:07:28 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/JASDFA-4J03.jpg&key=43f1e06a46f39f5a2ac9714cf90244d83cfd48947be0702dbcea191612d093b8)
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/JASDFA-4J05.jpg&key=a92e68ba91bfae9ca71c042cfd719e70505464efced203d45b3863e752ecaa30)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 29, 2024, 12:59:39 AM
Anyone want to update their A-4:

(https://www.twz.com/uploads/2024/02/27/A-4-IRST.jpg?auto=webp&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=3840)

A-4 Aggressor Now Boasts Infrared Search And Track System - with an AESA radar as well. (https://www.twz.com/air/a-4-aggressor-now-boasts-infrared-search-and-track-system)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on February 29, 2024, 08:36:38 PM
That would have been useful for the RAN's Skyhawks, given their Fleet Defence role & Sidewinder armament.
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 01, 2024, 01:02:37 AM
That would have been useful for the RAN's Skyhawks, given their Fleet Defence role & Sidewinder armament.

You could probably model one as a fit to the RAN Skyhawks - probably using the AN/AAA-4 from the F-4B:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/The_Phantom_menace._March_CA_%288203458393%29.jpg)

Or that used on the F-8 Crusader:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/F-8E_VMFAW-235_DaNang_Apr1966.jpg)
Title: Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 22, 2024, 02:25:54 AM
Video showing USMC ground crew safety and handling procedures for loading a nuclear device (in this case, a B61 shape) on an A-4M Skyhawk:
YouTUbe > What You Haven't Seen YouTube Channel > Nuclear Weapons Loading Procedures (1976) (https://youtu.be/Sj4tEj5aV7c?si=uFnebnJ7klaNsPNb)

The music is a bit reminiscent of the times and from what can be seen of the terrain in the video I believe this was filmed at MCAS el Toro, California.