Author Topic: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations  (Read 83829 times)

Offline dy031101

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2017, 10:17:21 AM »
Question: I am under the impression that European navies do not use TACAN to guide ship-borne helicopters during launch and recovery.  How is helicopter guidance achieved in those navies?

Thanks in advance.

===================================================================================

Interesting news from the US in relation to modernising and returning some FFG-07s to service to speed up progress to the hoped for 355 ship navy.  Mentioned was the successful upgrade of ships of the type by overseas navies (i.e. Australia) with new combat systems VLS etc.  As the USNs reserve FFGs have had their Mk-13s removed this makes the fitting of a larger VLS than on the RANs ships a possibility, at least two eight cell strike length modules would fit in the space formerly occupied by the Mk-13 GMLS and the RAN ships show an eight cell point defence (ESSM) unit can fit forward of that for an easy total of 24 cells without major structural work.  Canister launched anti ship missiles (what ever is selected for the LCS) could also be fitted between the superstructure and the VLS for a total of 32 ESSM, eight ASvMs and sixteen cells for SM-2/6, Tomahawk, VLASROC etc.

Every mention on the possibility of retrofitting Mk.41 into OH Perry class FFGs, IIRC, speaks of 4 x 8 cells although I reckon those to be Tactical Length.  I don't recall there being any Harpoon alternative that will fit into the Tactical Length Mk.41 though......

And then there is just restoring Harpoon capabilities.  Either way, I also reckon that there is always the option for another eight Self-Defense Length Mk.41 cells à la Australian FFG Upgrade, accepting that those eight cells are stuck with quad-packed ESSMs.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 02:59:59 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »
One thing I did not notice about the Allen M. Sumners destroyers transferred to the Shah Iran until recently- raised roof to accommodate a telescoping extension.

Come to think of it, I don't know if any other second-hand Gearings and Allen M. Sumners received this sort of modifications as well- AFAIK, Greece simply abolished their flight decks, and the ROC/Taiwan is the only such operator to whom the idea of LASH caught on (in the form of the 500MD ASW Defender).
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline finsrin

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2017, 02:49:30 PM »
Certainly see sensors-weapons growth-modernization of Fletcher to Sumners series to what is likely most mature point in this photo.
Always was the definitive destroyer type to me.
Remember being around 1960's FRAM converted ships.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 04:45:47 PM by finsrin »

Offline exkiwiforces

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2018, 12:31:58 PM »
I need some help as i’ve just purchased two Revel 1/700 kits of HMS Tiger C20 I’m looking to do a WHIFF on Tiger and Blake based around a refit in the late 70’s and 80’s just prior to the Falklands War.

The plan is to retain the 6”gun, but replace the 3” gun with Sea Dart/ Sea Eagle combo system,
Replace the two Sea Cat Systems with two Sea Wolf systems and add two IKARA launchers.
Close in guns twin 40mm radar assist guns and a gaggle of 20mm guns (single and twin mounts)
Reduce the Sea King Helicopters from four to two or replace with two Lynx Helicopters IOT save weight and space for the Sea Dart/ Sea Eagle radars and Sea Wolf radars.

Would the fitting of these wpns and associate mission systems will cause any top weight issues? Please note I have next to naval experience, but I have an interest in navel affairs which may seem strange for an ex-tankie and soon to be an ex RAAF rock ape.

Without having to buy complete kits, where can I get Sea Dart, Sea Wolf, IKARA Launchers and radars as I already have the rest

Offline apophenia

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2018, 05:35:57 AM »
Interesting. So, in your scenario, the late-'60s helicopter and command cruiser conversions never happened.

Good call on dropping the QF 3in Mark N1 guns. (Not sure about British experiences but feeds had a rep for jamming in Canadian service.) With each twin Mark 6 mount pulled, you're saving about 37 Imperial tons ... so over 200 tons total.

I've no clue about the weight of BAe's proposed 'Lightweight Sea Dart launcher' but the name suggest that you won't have any weight issues.

The Tiger class were finally paid off because of crewing issues (original complement was almost 700). The RW conversions exacerbated the crewing challenges. So ... what about some systems modernization to lower the complement?

Maybe replace the Admiralty three-drum boilers with three Olympus TM3B gas turbines? That'd give you engine commonality with the Type 21 and 42 frigates and Invincible class aircraft carrier? You'd end up with slightly less power but much lighter engines. Best of all, no actual styrene modifications required  ;)

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/WEM+1700+Seadart+Missiles+PRO+7050/5797/#.WyGLP2sh270
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Offline Story

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2019, 06:06:54 AM »
While this particular development would be unseen, it could have ramifications for other aspects of ship features, improvements and modifications.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a25804867/us-navy-hvp-heavy-gun-shells-rimpac/

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2019, 08:10:54 PM »
Very simple whiff using an available styrene kit, Flyhawk Aurora or Penelope as RAN instead of the Amphions. 

Australia bought the three Amphions because the existing WWI vintage Town Class cruisers were obsolescent and in need of replacement so as to not drag down the overall capability of the British Commonwealth under existing treaties.  The new Town Class were considered too expensive and (if I recall correctly) believed would take too long to build and deliver, but I do not recall any mention of the Arethusas being considered.

The Amphions were improved Leanders, the Arethusas were based on the Amphions, three 6" twins instead of four on less length.  The Arethusas were considered the minimum trade protection cruisers but also proved to be excellent fleet cruisers, while being cheaper to build and operate than the Leanders, let alone the much larger Towns that were designed as counters to the large light cruisers being introduced by the US and Japan.  Logically they would have been perfectly adequate for the RAN and being four of them they could maybe have replaced Adelaide as well.

Interestingly the Didos were in turn evoled from the Arethusa hull and machinery and were the more cruiser like design from the RNs Scout Cruiser studies, that also led to the large Tribal class destroyers at the lower / destroyer end of options.  Australia chose to build eight Tribals (only three constructed) and a battleship (never ordered).  During the war there was a plan to start building cruisers at cockatoo, with a modified Dido being the selected option, this plan continued sometime postwar.

Now for my whiff, how about Australia acquires or builds Arethusas aims to build Arethusas instead of the Tribals and the battleship, or more to the point, build Arethusas at Cockatoo and Tribals at Williamstown.  This could be preceded by local construction of the two Counties, instead of wasting resourses on a seaplane carrier, from the mid / late 20s, continuously, building and maintaining a shipbuilding skills base for no extra outlay and without acquiring a useless platform (Albatross) that the navy lacked the manning for.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2019, 09:02:35 PM »
I have a York-class (Trumpeter 1/350 HMS Exeter) & a County-class (Trumpeter 1/350 HMS Cornwall) on back-order which will be RAN, to go with my Belfast.

Still deciding on what carrier(s?) & what destroyers from what's available in the 1/350 market place.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2019, 10:01:39 PM »
I have a York-class (Trumpeter 1/350 HMS Exeter) & a County-class (Trumpeter 1/350 HMS Cornwall) on back-order which will be RAN, to go with my Belfast.

Still deciding on what carrier(s?) & what destroyers from what's available in the 1/350 market place.

Tribals are a good option, capable ships as is but I have also considered options such as an AA version with five twin 4"and two quad 2pdr Pom Poms and a scout cruiser version with four single 6" or 5.5" and two quad 2pdr Pom Poms.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2019, 07:36:24 AM »
I didn't realize that PNS Alamgir (F260) was outfitted with what seems to be a telescoping hangar.  For VIP Sea Kings or even Z-18?

(The ship's Wikipedia entry gives me an impression of some sort of a command ship.)

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 04:15:57 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2019, 10:33:07 AM »
Illustration models for the next generation surface combatants for the ROCN.  There will probably be some changes being demonstrated this August......

Top 3: The frigate component of the programme.  Design was going to get finalized this year but then got stalled due to the excessive size of the originally-specified passive electronically-scanned radar and the unwillingness of the ROCN to allow any increase to the displacement of the frigate design to compensate.  Development of an alternative, active electronically-scanned radar has been hinted since last year, and construction is now expected to begin somewhere in early 2020s.  1 x 76mm Mark 75 or OTO Melara Super-Rapid, 4 x 8 Mk.41 VLS, 2 x Mk.32 SVTTs, 2 x 4 HF-2/3 AShMs, 1 x CIWS, and two manually- or remote-controlled 20mm or 30mm autocannons.

Bottom: The destroyer component of the programme.  Everything about it is still in concept stage.  I only pray that there will still be 12 x 8 Mk.41 by the time the design is anywhere near finalized (although even then I am not sure if that'd still be enough nowadays)......

The full album can be found HERE
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 08:39:24 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2019, 07:04:07 PM »
I need some help as i’ve just purchased two Revel 1/700 kits of HMS Tiger C20 I’m looking to do a WHIFF on Tiger and Blake based around a refit in the late 70’s and 80’s just prior to the Falklands War.

The plan is to retain the 6”gun, but replace the 3” gun with Sea Dart/ Sea Eagle combo system,
Replace the two Sea Cat Systems with two Sea Wolf systems and add two IKARA launchers.
Close in guns twin 40mm radar assist guns and a gaggle of 20mm guns (single and twin mounts)
Reduce the Sea King Helicopters from four to two or replace with two Lynx Helicopters IOT save weight and space for the Sea Dart/ Sea Eagle radars and Sea Wolf radars.

Would the fitting of these wpns and associate mission systems will cause any top weight issues? Please note I have next to naval experience, but I have an interest in navel affairs which may seem strange for an ex-tankie and soon to be an ex RAAF rock ape.

Without having to buy complete kits, where can I get Sea Dart, Sea Wolf, IKARA Launchers and radars as I already have the rest
Some how I missed this when originally posted.  Good ideas.

Shapeways has a variety of interesting bits available-
https://www.shapeways.com/product/BQ95LRLAQ/1-700-rn-sea-dart-launcher-set-x3?optionId=67145224
https://www.shapeways.com/product/V7DF6RWTM/hms-tiger-command-helicopter-cruiser-c20-1-700?optionId=43589914&li=marketplace
https://www.shapeways.com/product/G38FQLGU5/hms-lion-aft-super-structure-inc-details-1-700-sc?optionId=43194579
https://www.shapeways.com/product/RTAQWQX3Z/hms-lion-detail-kit-1-700-scale-for-matchbox-rev?optionId=41854406
https://www.shapeways.com/product/BVQ9LHKEU/1-700-hms-tiger-class-6-quot-50-15-2cm-qf-mkn5-gun-x2?optionId=81321138&li=marketplace

I too have toyed with the idea that the Tigers being converted into Sea Dart CGs but my project kick off rate is only slightly better than my project completion rate, i.e. not good at all.  Have two Revel (ex Matchbox) Tigers and the Lion conversion kits, lots of plans but no traction, also have armaments sprues from various dragon kits but the Shapeways options are looking better and better.

My thinking was the RN decides against the Command Cruiser conversion, opting instead for the Escort Cruiser option with the interim conversion of the Centaurs for the role.  The Tigers would then be fitted pretty much as out outlined, Sea Dart in B, Seawolf in place of the midriff 3" Mk-6.  Sea Dart should be easy structurally speaking as B was originally to have had a 6" triple so should have the volume able to accommodate the Sea Dart with its deep magazine.  The residual stability of the design should be sufficient for the extra radars, directors etc.  Volume for the various systems should not be an issue either.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2019, 11:09:43 PM »
Packing ready for moving to our new house and, of course, pulling out kits and recalling projects as I go.  Dragon 1/700 USS Virginia had me jumping on line and pulling my copy of Friedman's US Destroyers to refresh my memory on one of my favourite ship classes the Virginia Class CGN.

The Virginia buy stopped when continued construction of nuclear powered escorts was declared not to the in the national interest in 1976, deciding on quantity over quality, or more to the point, a greater number of Ticonderoga class DDGs (later CGs) instead of individually more capable evolved Virginias with AEGIS.  The USN requirement was for 20 CGNs to provide four ship escorts for dual carrier battlegroups, the issue was this would leave no high end (specifically AEGIS) escorts for surface action or amphibious groups.

Now my what if is lets say the USN was able to keep their nuclear powered AEGIS escorts in the shipbuilding plan at the cost of the Ticoderogas.  To mitigate the numbers issue additional Kidd class DDGs were ordered, some Spruances were upgraded to a similar standard and the DDG 51 program was accelerated.  This could result in either the AEGIS equipped CGN 42 being ordered or continuation of the originally planned build of eleven standard Virginias with NTU features incorporated.

Either way the USN ends up with twenty larger more capable ships with far more potential for upgrades and improvements than the very tight Ticonderogas, even a potential AEGIS installation during MLU, large VLS would be a no brainer.

I have two Virginias and am thinking of doing one as an updated USN ship and the other I am still tempted to do as a Sea Dart armed RN version.

Offline Wyrmshadow

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2019, 08:55:12 AM »
old pictures of mine for inspiration, would be amazing to see this realized.




Offline finsrin

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2019, 10:41:02 AM »
Rear turrets on modernized Long Beach probably 3".   What are forward turrets ?

With nuclear power; rail gun or laser turrets are possible.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 10:47:42 AM by finsrin »

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2019, 03:55:37 AM »
I wonder about something like those shown above but with the centre section fitted with UGM-27 Polaris missiles.  The Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi was fitted with four Polaris missile launchers located in the aft part of the ship (see below photos)






A nuclear powered cruiser such as a Long Beach-class with a dedicated Polaris missile fit out and acting as a surface equivalent to the SSBNs (would this make it a CBN?) would be an interesting build.  In fact, one proposal with 8 Polaris was considered:



Now make it even more dedicated with 16 missiles (equivalent to the George Washington-class and Ethan Allen-class SSBNs) would be an interesting whiff.
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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2019, 05:42:09 AM »
Strike Cruiser Mk 2.:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2019, 08:30:27 PM »
During the 70s the Iran had a very ambitious naval program that (if my memory serves me correctly) at one point had a notional order book of three Invincible Class carriers, six Kidd class destroyers and twelve S class frigates.  Of these only the Kidds were ordered and then the last pair were cancelled before the Iranian revolution saw them acquired by the USN instead.


The S Class were interesting in that they were FFGs (as seen on https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/complete-information-analysis-on-elli-class-frigates-of-hellenic-navy.368266/page-2) with SM-1 and 5" guns.  I assume they were the Dutch Olympus / Tyne version, not the German LM2500 MTU one, which would have fit well with the Olymus powered Invincibles.


This got me thinking, what if they decided to go Dutch and UK only and not order the Kidds, maybe going for an improved, double ended Bristol instead.  Four Olypus in a COGAG arrangment, the Ikara replaced by a second Seadart, a helo hangar and flight deck aftof the existing Seadart.  This fleet is under construction when the Iranian revolution occurs meaning three Invincibles and six improved Bristols on the stocks in 1979......... ;)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 09:01:45 PM by Volkodav »

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2019, 01:56:24 AM »
I wonder about something like those shown above but with the centre section fitted with UGM-27 Polaris missiles.  The Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi was fitted with four Polaris missile launchers located in the aft part of the ship (see below photos)


Now make it even more dedicated with 16 missiles (equivalent to the George Washington-class and Ethan Allen-class SSBNs) would be an interesting whiff.
Shipboard ICBMs have been considered before and I do believe the considered opinion is that they wouldn't last long enough in any war to be a serious deterrent. The problem is they are too easy to find and too important not to take out in the very first instance of a war. Surface ships are simply too vulnerable to subs and ASW is just too difficult, especially nowadays, to invest in a nuclear deterrent that will be sunk in seconds after a war starts.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2019, 04:17:27 AM »
Bah!!  Reality sucks!
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2019, 10:43:50 PM »
Bah!!  Reality sucks!
Such has always been the case, of course...  ;D

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2019, 02:36:09 AM »
I always thought ships did not have enough markings then I saw HMS Dragon:





Looks good - we should see more similar.

And what's best, you can get a kit in both 1/700 and 1/350:





« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:40:50 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline dy031101

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Minor question about Type 23
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2019, 08:27:06 AM »
Question: What is this circled item on the Type 23 class frigate?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 10:09:47 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Frigates, Destroyers, And Cruisers Ideas And Inspirations
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2019, 01:26:33 AM »
Not sure but I believe it is the exhaust for the two diesel generators - here is a better view:

« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:29:35 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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