Author Topic: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters  (Read 27748 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2012, 12:03:44 PM »
A worthy reason to sacrifice an F-104 and a Lear (engines) if I ever saw one. :)

Ah but what about the wings?  :-\  I'm thinking maybe F4U wings with tips glued to the 104 fuselage and former wing roots holding the engines?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2012, 12:05:07 PM »
Avro Canada VTO Attack Aircraft -- the ZELL C.121

The PS.21/C.121 project ran in parallel with the C.113 and C.114. In some senses, the C.121 anticipated the C.116 as a dedicated attack aircraft with no pretentions to being a fighter. What differentiated the C.121 was its adoption of the ZELL (Zero Length Launch) approach then being proposed for the C.105 Arrow interceptor.

In preparation for operations, the C.121 would be dispensed on a mobile erector-launcher vehicle. With jet engines running at maximum thrust, a rocket catapult would propel the aircraft to flying speed. Recovery was by conventional landing with a wheeled undercarriage (consisting of bicycle nose and main gears with 'outriders' extending from wingtip nacelles.

The C.121 airframe retained the fuselage of the TS-140 submission almost unchanged. A new horizontal tailplane was fitted of similar profile to the vertical fin. Like the C.116 proposal, the wings were CF-100 Canuck outer panels joined on the centre line. Like the CF-100 Mk.X project, Bristol Siddeley Orpheus turbojets were mounted on each wing tip (but in this case, being the main power source).

The C.121/1 was powered by twin 4,850 lb st Orpheus BOr.3 (Mk 703) turbojets. Armament was housed in a retractable fuselage container but wing pylons were an option. The C.121/2 had an Orenda Orcus booster rocket motor for better take-off performance. The C.121/3 featured higher power Orpheus BOr.11 engines (5,760 lb st) and had a new cruciform tail to allow Orcus installation without major airframe changes.

The C.121/4 was similar to the C.121/3 but had a prominent fuselage keel. This keel was to be reinforced to permit wheel-less landings on soft surfaces like grass or snow. No detail design was done on the C.121/4 since the Advanced Projects Group was instructed to shift its priority to the more conventional C.122 concept.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2012, 12:06:39 PM »
Avro Canada VTO Attack Aircraft -- the ZELL C.122 and C.123

The C.122 and C.123 series can be seen as the conventional landing equivalents to the C.117. The absense of the anticipated NATO requirement for a Fiat G.91 replacement necessitated a higher performance than the C.121 was capable of.

The C.122 was powered by a single, unheated Orenda Iroquois PS-13U turbojet of 19,250 lb st. Take off, as per the C.121 series, was a rocket-propelled Zero Length Launch from a wheeled erector-launcher vehicle. Also inherited from the C.121 were CF-100 wings although the main undercarriage was now in the style of the C.116. For the C.122/2, the cruciform tail was replaced by a new T-tail arrangement (similar to that of the C.117/2).

While the C.122 represented a considerable advance over the C.121, Avro Canada senior management requested a more fighter-like performance using the same engine. The resulting C.123 was a straightforward evolution of the C.122. The former's CF-100 wings were replaced by the outer panels from the CF-105 Arrow. This turned the design into a tailed delta. In most other respects, the airframe remained the same.

The emergence of the F-104G Starfighter as the likely standard NATO fighter threatened the continuation of the C.123. However, the Advanced Projects Group believed that the project has sufficient merit to proceed assuming export orders. This too was overruled by senior management which ordered concentration on an entirely new STOL concept --  the P.450, a canard thrust-ejector design by John Frost ...
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2012, 04:05:33 AM »
Most excellent, apophenia! I'm really enjoying following this wonderfully illustrated alt. history!
Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2012, 06:01:19 AM »
Many thanks Brian! I'm a little surprised anyone is still following this. Next time I prepare an outline before diving in  :o  Anyhoo, here's the final installment with ... a top view  ;)
____________________________________________________________

Avro Canada STOL Fighter Aircraft -- the thrust-ejector augmenter lift C.124

Having finally abandoned their explorations of VTOL disc aircraft, the Avro Canada Special Projects Group under John Frost turned their attention to a high-speed STOL fighter under a generic Project 450 designation. The P-450 concept employed four spanwise underwing thrust ejector augmenters to provide very short take-off and landing.

While Frost's team wind-tunnel tested models for a Mach 2 P-450 concept, the VTOL Section of Avro Canada's Advanced Projects Group worked at adapting the design to the airframe of the C.121-C.123 series of VTOL fighters. The result was the C.124.

Frost's concept meant that only the forward fuselage of the original designs and general C.123 wing construction was retained. The fixed tanks/undercarriage housing of the original P-450 concept were moved inboard. This resulted in a small interruption to thrust ejector flow but also reduced structural weight and left space for twin, outboard wing pylons.

Special Projects Group was anything but happy with the C.124, seeing it as a compromised version of the P-450. Always the darling of Avro Canada senior management, Frost was allowed to continue development of the 'full-sized' P-450. But the VTOL APG was also to further develop the C.124 concept. Both teams believed that they could have aircraft flying by 1961. Of course, neither thrust-ejector project was to be complete. The C.124 and P-450 projects died alongside the Arrow interceptor in February of 1959. By 1962, A.V. Roe Canada had ceased to exist altogether.
_________________________________________
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2012, 06:06:20 AM »
Whif note: Avro Canada did submit its 'X-Wing' VTOL visual fighter concept to the US Navy for TS-140 in 1956. The Avro Canada TS-140 submission lost out to Bell's D-188 (lift-jet + tilt-engines, other losing bids were the Lockheed CL-349 and Ryan 112 concepts).

John Frost's Special Projects Group did belatedly give up on 'flying saucer' designs and turned out the P-450 (which got no further than the wind tunnel model). The CF-100 Mk.X with its wing tip Orpheus booster engines was also a real project. All the other designs shown here are pure whif!

In the notes on the Starfighter-based C.117, I mentioned Fokker and SABCA. RW Fokker joined with Republic Aviation to develop the unbuilt D.24 Alliance variable geometry VTOL fighter project (1 x 38,500 lb st BS.100-3 -- a scaled-up Pegasus). The later VFW-Fokker VAK191B VTOL fighter was built but never ordered. Like Fokker, SABCA also assembled Starfighters (at their Gosselies plant, along with Avions Fairey).

-------------------------------
For those keeping score (or, indeed still reading!), the final tally is:

Avro Canada submission to US Navy TS-140 (Visual Fighter)
 - http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg9958#msg9958

C.113 (PS-23) tilt-wing/jets + optional booster rocket (2 x Oread + 1 x Orcus)
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg10634#msg10634

C.114 (PS-14) lift-jets + deflected thrust (2 x RB.108 + 2 x unreheated Iroquois)
-http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg10048#msg10048

C.115 [unrelated C.105 Arrow development series]

C.116 (PS-26) lift-jets + tilt-jets (2 x RB.108 + 2 x Orenda Oread)
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg11886#msg11886

C.117 (PS-27) deflected thrust (3 x RB.163) - C.117/1 & C.117/3
 - http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12199#msg12199

C.117 (PS-27) deflected thrust (2 x Oread + 1 RB.163) - C.117/7 & C.117/9
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12413#msg12413

C.117 (PS-27) deflected thrust (2 x Oread + 1 RB.163) - C.117/7 & C.117/9
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12685#msg12685

C.118 [unrelated light fighter development - 2 x GE J85-GE-13]
C.119 [unrelated design, possibly a continuation of Project 'Y']
C.120 [unrelated C.105 Arrow development series]

C.121 (PS-31) VTO ZELL fighter (2 x Orpheus BOr.3/.11) - C.121/1 & C.121/3
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12903#msg12903

C.122 (PS-32) VTO ZELL fighter (1 x Iroquois PS-13U) - C.122/2
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12904#msg12904

C.123 (PS-33) VTO ZELL fighter (1 x Iroquois PS-13U) - C.123/1
- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12904#msg12904

C.124 (PS-34) four-port thrust-ejector augmenter lift (unspec. engines)
-
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=910.msg12980#msg12980

C.125 [unrelated C.105 Arrow development series]
____________________________________________
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 09:51:52 AM by apophenia »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2012, 03:00:38 PM »
That last profile is sweet.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2012, 05:10:33 AM »
Great Work!
I think for the wings on the C.117/10 I would go with using card stock to extend the (relocated) wings of the F-104. A little detail added to the tip gives you the look of the rotation mechanism.
The one change from your excellent artwork I might consider is building in a "passive" variable dihedral system which would allow the wings to droop. The engines are hard to service as drawn, and I have doubts it would fit in a Hardened Aircraft Shelter at CFB Baden with the engines up and out.
I wonder what it would look like in 441 (Silver Fox) TFS `Checkerbird` markings. :)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »
Thanks lads!

I wonder what it would look like in 441 (Silver Fox) TFS `Checkerbird` markings. :)


Here's my stab at an in-service C.117/10 (which I've called the CF-117 Ares). I put her in the phase-out markings of 441 at Baden-Soellingen in late 1985.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg13131#msg13131

BTW: this profiles borrows heavily from work by Lieuwe de Vries (as does the C.117/10). He's done huge numbers of goregeous, RW Starfighter profiles. Check him out: http://www.lieuwedevries.com/
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2012, 10:29:47 AM »
I think for the wings on the C.117/10 I would go with using card stock to extend the (relocated) wings of the F-104. A little detail added to the tip gives you the look of the rotation mechanism.
The one change from your excellent artwork I might consider is building in a "passive" variable dihedral system which would allow the wings to droop. The engines are hard to service as drawn, and I have doubts it would fit in a Hardened Aircraft Shelter at CFB Baden with the engines up and out.

Good point about the shelters. Any idea if the Baden HAS were built for the Lawn Darts ... or did they date further back?

I went with a gull wing cuz I wanted a sort of 'Praying Mantis' look to the front view  ;D  Severly impractical I know ... but then what VTOL fighter design wasn't?

Amazing to think that with all the effort put into VTOL combat aircraft designs, only one got it right! But, then again, that Sidney Camm bloke was reputed to 'have some game'  ;)
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2012, 04:25:23 AM »
 All beautiful work, colleague-I like the four-engined birds you started with best, but its all
 terrific.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2012, 10:14:45 AM »
apophenia, the HAS's were a NATO priority after the Israelis demonstrated what happened to unprotected aircraft vs Egypt in 1967. Canada's HAS's differed only slightly from the ones Germany built, the only real physical difference noticeable being the blast diverter behind the rear tunnel. The Germans used a curved, segmented ramp and Canada used an angled splitter. I've got a Revell Germany 1/72 HAS in the stash to convert to a Baden example. I just have to decide what type of bird to stuff in the tube, it's a momento piece of my tour... so real world.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2012, 11:20:25 AM »
Dr. Yokai: Thanks Doc ... I'm keen on the look of that TS-140 submission too.

Silver Fox: Thanks for the details. So, if the 'CF-117' had been accepted for service, they'd have tailored the HAS to fit ... and maybe with engine mtx platforms suspended from the ceilings  ;D

Where are you leaning on the RW HAS, CF-18?
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2012, 12:44:17 AM »
The shelter designs were NATO-standard, so they wouldn't have tailored the HAS, just chosen a series that fit. Series 3 shelters certainly would, but those were a later design. They would have figured something out. :)
For a plane to stuff in the tube, I'm undecided. I didn't work on aircraft on that tour, I was in support ops. Baden had T-birds and Hornets, so one of those. I'm leaning toward the T-Bird actually, it lets the inside of the HAS be more visible and I have a connection to the Base Flight T-Birds from when they would come to CFB North Bay for maintenance.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2012, 06:56:45 AM »
Thanks Silver Fox. What year(s) are we talking about for the CT-133s?

Pre-'73 silver with red tanks would look great inside the HAS ... while bouncing some extra light around the interior  ;)  Leading Edge does 1/72 decals for this scheme or there's the all-in-one Belcher Bits sheet.

I'm partial to the 1974 Starfighter-style olive-on-top scheme, a CT-133 scheme that I don't recall having seen modeled before: http://www.airfighters.com/photo_55471.jpg
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2012, 09:37:09 AM »
Most likely I would go with the scheme shown here: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Canada---Air/Canadair-CT-133-Silver/1651961/M/ on 133094. I worked on '094 in North Bay and it was in Baden at the same time I was.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2012, 09:46:50 AM »
Nice. The lo-viz camo scheme was sharp ... and all the basic markings are in that Belcher sheet.
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Offline Tophe

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2012, 10:52:09 AM »
Frost's concept meant that only the forward fuselage of the original designs and general C.123 wing construction was retained. The fixed tanks/undercarriage housing of the original P-450 concept were moved inboard. This resulted in a small interruption to thrust ejector flow but also reduced structural weight and left space for twin, outboard wing pylons.
Would a Twin-P-450 with two fuselages improve stability on take off and landing? hehe... ;)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2012, 06:00:49 AM »
As Tophe rightly points out, I have inadvertently omitted the even more obscure Avro Canada C.124/2 concept (aka P.450 TOF).

Would a Twin-P-450 with two fuselages improve stability on take off and landing? hehe... ;)

It couldn't have hurt Tophe! As far as I know, no Real World application of thrust-ejector augmenter lift ever succeeded in leaving the ground  :o
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Offline Tophe

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Re: Avro Canada VTOL Fighters
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2012, 09:25:36 AM »
 :-* Wonderful! Thanks! There you have a winner, I am sure!