Lockheed P-3 Orion Ideas and Inspiration

[apophenia]

I can't see any "swept tail surfaces" in the drawings I have ...

I think they are trying to describe the rudder hinge line. Compared with the P-3, the P-7 LRAACA vertical tail is very slightly swept back

[Volkodav]

Squared of and modernised is probably a better description, but swept is the term that came to mind.

[tankmodeler]

If you went with the C130J engines and nacelles, a new wing, added a new lower lobe to the fuselage and lengthened the fuselage, you could probably get away with the same basic fuselage diameter, which pays big benefits in development. The lobe could handle a larger weapons bay, move the sonobuoy chutes out of the rear cabin, permit more avionics to be placed below the floor and, with modern smaller avionics, allow the same or smaller crew to work with more comfort. It would allow the carriage of heavier weapons, additional fuel and permit longer patrols. Derated engines would permit a lot more flexibility in cruise while allowing a greater all up weight for take off.

All while keeping mostly within the existing vehicle size envelope and fuselage shape, simplifying development and keeping the very economical turboprops and low altitude capabilities that come with them. Always thought he P-8 to be too fast for a lot of the work the patrol aircraft have to do outside finding subs.

[elmayerle]

Adding a lower lobe to the existing P-3 fuselage, even if the new volume is unpressurized, gets to be "interesting" because the existing APU is mounted in the forward fuselage.  You're almost getting to a completely new aircraft, then, after designing this out or designing around it.

[tankmodeler]

Yes, it's pretty much a new aircraft in many ways, for sure, however the Brits added a new lobe to the Comet fuselage to get the Nimrod, so it can be done economically.

[KiwiZac]

Thanks guys, this info and the drawings are a big help. I found the P-7 at Secret Projects last year and thought it'd make a nice RNZAF project.

Speaking of my beloved RNZAF: one of our P-3K2s has been deployed to the Middle East to aid in anti-piracy efforts. In yesterday's news on the radio station we listen to at work it was described as "an army plane".

So. Who wants to do a New Zealand Army Orion? 

[elmayerle]

Do it as an AP-3.  It's predecessor, the P-2 Neptune, was flown by the US Army as the AP-2H and by the USAF as the RB-69 as well as by the USN.

[GTX_Admin]

Do it as an AP-3.  It's predecessor, the P-2 Neptune, was flown by the US Army as the AP-2H and by the USAF as the RB-69 as well as by the USN.

Mind you, please remember that Australian Orions were officially designated  AP-3Cs after their upgrades under Projects AIR5140 and AIR5276.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Club shred:  P-3 with four 20mm or 30mm gun pod units mounted under the wing and fuselage.  Perfect solution to the East Africa/Indian Ocean pirate problem. 

[ChernayaAkula]

^ Or the Pave Gat 20mm Vulcan turret from the B-57G? 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

^ Or the Pave Gat 20mm Vulcan turret from the B-57G? 

Definitely worth exploring.  A more selective servicing of targets instead of a wall of fire and shotgun approach to hitting something but there goes your fear and terror factor :)

With Pave Gat mounted in the weapons bay and a huge ammunition supply it would be quite the show stopper.

[kitnut617]

^ Or the Pave Gat 20mm Vulcan turret from the B-57G? 

Definitely worth exploring.  A more selective servicing of targets instead of a wall of fire and shotgun approach to hitting something but there goes your fear and terror factor :)

With Pave Gat mounted in the weapons bay and a huge ammunition supply it would be quite the show stopper.

Project I've been developing would have one 20mm Vulcan and one GAU-8 30mm Avenger in a turret. The turrets would be in the front section of the wheel bay sponsoons, one above the other and one turret on each side. A P-3 sized aircraft with a turret under the fuselage would work too

[jcf]

That's nice but they often don't know pirates are about until after they've boarded a ship,
so you'd come down and blast the taken vessel out of the water along with the hostages?

Seriously folks, they're not swanning about in a 21st century version of the Black Pearl
looking for the main chance, you can't tell the pirates from the plain fishermen and who bears
the cost of the standing patrols? The insurance companies far prefer to pay the ransoms, than
they do extra taxes or direct levies for services, a decision they made over two centuries ago
and are not likely to reverse.

Piracy is as old as maritime trade and will continue until such a point that human race, as a whole,
has finally grown up.

[ChernayaAkula]

Good points.  :) And of course it's always a problem applying military force to what is, essentially, a law enforcement issue.

I recall reading a report stating the biggest costs aren't ransoms, but rather the heightened fuel costs for when the ships travel at a higher speed  through areas where they're likely to encounter pirates in an attempt to present as small a target as possible.

[Volkodav]

A mates daughter used to do security on ferries that travelled through Suez for refurbishment in Europe, fire hoses were the main tool used, very hard to board something big from something small when being blown into the water by very high pressure water.  The biggest issue was being caught unawares and not being able to defend the ships sides in time.  While Somalian pirates were in the news the traditional pass time of fishermen around the various straits in South East Asia continued unabated attacking targets of opportunity.  Not just fishermen mind you, the occasional commercial seaman has been known to dabble in piracy when they know they can get away with it.

Oh my mates daughter got out of that game and got a job as an armourer on Game of Thrones and now sends him memorabilia at the end of each seasons shooting. How do I get my kids into a game like that?  :)

[Gingie]

so you'd come down and blast the taken vessel out of the water along with the hostages?

Which is why we have the PLA- Navy conducting anti-piracy ops off the horn 

[Volkodav]

Well rumour has it the Russians are actually interdicting pirates and summarily executing them.

[jcf]

Wouldn't surprise me, they bear as much responsibility as
the 'West' for the mess the Horn became, but of course
they can't be arsed to actually help fix things, which is
typical, going back centuries for that lot.

[taiidantomcat]

Well rumour has it the Russians are actually interdicting pirates and summarily executing them.

Pretty much standard practice for how long? 

One of my friends was on an MEU when they encountered Somali Pirates. Boy oh Boy this was exciting!!! MEUs are equipped and trained to handle anything from disaster relief to full on assault. The options were limitless! They could board, they could capture with navy seals, bomb with harriers, launch a helo attack, send in Force Recon! the options were incredible. So the MEU boss called the higher ups and then those higher ups called the higher ups. There was lots and lots and lots of talk about all the various options that could be taken. While everyone was deciding a vessel from the Indian Navy shot it and sank it. And no more excitement was had that day.

The whole cruise would have been a wash if it hadn't been for the Harriers getting to bomb Libya later on

 

Behind closed doors the Captain confided in my friend that in all seriousness he probably could have just sent the Navy security team to take it down for all the training Somali pirates have and that the problem in this case was the MEU just being so capable no one could decide what overkill option to take LOL

[elmayerle]

On adding a new lower lobe, I need to correct my earlier post, the APU on the P-3 is installed side-to-side just aft of the nose gear well and just ahead of the weapons bay.  Adding a new lower lobe is going to require a fair bit of redesign there, too.  Seriously, I think an all new aircraft might be less expensive and certainly more roomy (P-3's, with just eight crew aren't too bad, EP-3E's, with 23 on board, along with a host of electronics, are quite crowded, though not as much as E-2's).

[kitnut617]

the APU on the P-3 is installed side-to-side just aft of the nose gear well

Interesting, because on the Electra the APU is in the rear fuselage. At least that was what was shown on an Ice Pilots episode when they couldn't get it started.

[elmayerle]

I suspect the presence of MAD gear and the sonobuoy launchers made that location unsuitable for the P-3's APU.

[kitnut617]

That makes sense Evan

[tankmodeler]

Adding a new lower lobe is going to require a fair bit of redesign there, too.

If I'm not wrong, the Nimrod added a new upper lobe, essentially keeping the wings and structure where they were and adding a new "loft" storey. :)

Thus you can increase the sizes of things like the weapons bay upwards versus lowering or lengthening landing gear.

This image shows an upper fuselage width increase of about 3 feet.

[kitnut617]

The Nimrod was a Comet which had a new lower lobe added to make it into a Nimrod