Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72477 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: April 01, 2015, 08:30:01 PM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2015, 08:51:54 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2015, 09:12:53 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.
Take the F.6 fin all the way out to a point?  You might have to start folding the fin to get it into the HAS.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2015, 11:07:35 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.
Take the F.6 fin all the way out to a point?  You might have to start folding the fin to get it into the HAS.

Both possible.  I'd expect the British to go with something like a folding fin rather than something sensible like a twin fin.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2015, 03:14:35 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2015, 06:18:17 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2015, 09:33:56 PM »
Would the pylons themselves help address the problem?  Unlike the Firestreak and Red Top pylons these would be vertical and could be designed to have an aerodynamic effect.

The other thing that comes to mind is instead of two Firestreaks or Red Tops on each pylon they could each hold one large British missile outboard and a Sidewinder inboard, my inspiration for this was a photo of an F-15 with an AMRAAM outboard and Sidewinder inboard in such an arrangement.  My original thought was actually for paired Sidewinders or single Firestreaks/Red Tops on each.

Considering the weapons pack contained equipment for the missiles would wing mounted pylons suffice?  Although I must admit I always thought it strange that the Lightning needed a weapons pack full of equipment for its missiles while the Javelin and Sea Vixen seemed to be able to simply hang the missiles off their wings, I suppose this was due to the Lightning fuselage being so restricted for space compared to the big two seaters.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2015, 10:20:56 AM »
As far as I can tell, the idea of the "weapons pack" was more to allow rapid reloading of the missiles, rather like the Hunter's gun pack system did with it's guns.  It allowed the swapping over of two missiles, their coolant bottles and the electronics just went with them.

As for the problem of the fin, I think they found that either they had to lengthen the nose or provide a bigger fin to ensure sufficient control of the aircraft with the larger finned Red Tops up front.   They opted for the easier, initial taller fin and when that didn't work out, went for a taller, broader fin on the F.6.

So, you can either go for a longer nosed Lightning or one with a broader, taller fin.  I wonder what that would have done to the drag?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2015, 06:24:08 AM »
What if the RAF had taken up the idea of the Lightning as a dedicated recon platform:




As far as I am aware, only the Saudi Air Force took up the option of purchasing the reconnaissance system and that was only in very limited numbers.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 06:35:18 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2015, 09:50:16 AM »
Lightning RF.7 in RAF usage?

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2015, 01:28:23 PM »
The RAF had them too, the Lightning PR9, shown here in 4 (AC) Sqdn. markings.  ;)

Converted from the Airfix F2A with the addition of a camera pod from a Hasegawa RF-4, and drop tanks from a Heller F-104G and a couple of  'winders for self defence from the same source.



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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2015, 01:48:13 PM »
Nice, really nice.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)

how did i miss that!, looks very german like that

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2015, 01:03:39 AM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning


Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)


how did i miss that!, looks very german like that


Well it's not surprising -- After the war the designer of the Ta.183, Hans Multhopp, worked at RAE (IIRC) where he helped with the design of the RAE supersonic research aircraft which also had Multhopp's signature design of a T-Tail.

http://www.unicraft.biz/on/raetra/rae.jpg

 Multhopp eventually ended up at Martin where he was instrumental in the design of the XB-51. As we know, Martin built the competitor to the XB-51, the Canberra.  It's my view that W.E.W Petter (the Canberra/Lightning designer) and Multhopp got to know each other very well  -----
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 01:15:40 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2015, 06:32:01 AM »
Random idea: normal RAF lightnings with Short SB.5 wing:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2015, 03:49:15 PM »
I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.




I note that aircraft doesn't have any air-to-air missiles.  I suspect the black boxes for the Bullpup guidance replaced them.  There simply wasn't much room in the Lightning airframe for extra systems without sacrificing something.


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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2015, 03:53:05 PM »
Random idea:  Lightning Target Drone (akin to QF-4s)


Not a target drone but there was a proposed target tug:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2015, 03:57:49 PM »
I keep thinking of a Lightning for the Snoops. Spooks group build as a Recce lightning.
It would certainly be fast enough but the lack of legs sort of kills the idea off.



Real world proposals/developments:



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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2015, 04:00:33 PM »
Twin tandem seat P-8 derivative:


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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2015, 04:01:34 PM »
Some Naval Lightning info:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2015, 04:02:49 PM »
Some more Ground Attack info:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2015, 05:03:32 PM »
Feeling the need for a road trip to visit a certain personal library

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
Greg: From which of the two books did you get the images from?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2015, 09:21:42 PM »
Freightdog do a 1/72nd scale conversion for the ground-attack Lightning, which also includes a pair of N1 bombs:

http://www.freightdogmodels.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=27_29&products_id=1000&osCsid=b93ae58e6b2746e71cfb6da622fd1b0f

I've got one of these sets, but I intend to use it with some Odd'n'Ordnance AS.30s originally intended for Buccaneers.

Edited to include the scale - cheers to The Big Gimper
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:29:18 PM by Weaver »
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2015, 09:36:30 PM »
Freightdog do a conversion for the ground-attack Lightning, which also includes a pair of N1 bombs:

http://www.freightdogmodels.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=27_29&products_id=1000&osCsid=b93ae58e6b2746e71cfb6da622fd1b0f

I've got one of these sets, but I intend to use it with some Odd'n'Ordnance AS.30s originally intended for Buccaneers.


Before you get excited Greg, they are not 1/48. They are 1/72.

Maybe Colin will create some in 1/48 to support the new Airfix Lightning.
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