Author Topic: Northrop P-61 Ideas and Inspiration (Read 25827 times)

The Big Gimper · « **on:** February 11, 2012, 01:30:03 AM »

Northrop TBT-1 Torpedo Bomber - Blue Widow:

A Friday afternoon brain fart.

What if in late 1945, the FAA (do you sense a theme in my brain here?) asked the British and US aircraft manufacturers to propose a torpedo bomber which has the following capabilities;

two radial engines for reliability and long over water flights in the PTO
long range option (DUH!)
two to three crew members
carry at least two torpedoes
self defense options
carry radar for night time attacks
have a top speed in excess of 400 MPH
Look really cool in a GSB finish and large FAA decals

What if Jack Northrop, a sailor himself, said I have the airplane to do that?

Hi gave the order and in less than 3 months he presented to the Admirals of the FAA the Northrop TBT-1 Blue Widow based on the P-61B. They were immediately impressed and placed an order for 250 aircraft.

The TBT-1 Blue Widow became the scourge of the night sky sinking over 500,000 of Tons of Axis shipping all at night.

Comments?

Carl

Empty Handed · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:57:21 AM »

A minor quibble. Northrop's designator was T, so your Blue Widow would be the TBT. Other than that, seriously cool idea!!!!

The Big Gimper · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:59:49 AM »

Oops. I missed that. TBT it is.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2012, 04:08:26 AM »

looking forward to this.

Maverick · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2012, 07:02:53 AM »

Sounds neat Carl. You could redo the nose radar as an ASV set and even consider that the upper guns have a legitimate place as a defensive option. I might see if I can knock up a profile along the lines you've mentioned.

Regards,

John

The Big Gimper · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2012, 09:41:57 AM »

Good idea John.

What about the Quickboost Liberator GR V ASV mounted under the fuselage? And some 5" HVARs under the wing?

Maverick · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2012, 10:43:23 AM »

Could be good. Would give a different nose profile and you could use the space for maybe a 75mm or 57mm.

Regards,

John

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2012, 04:49:56 AM »

Here's something I was asked to do once upon a time:

Regards,

Greg

P.S. Folks, I have renamed this thread "Northrop P-61 Ideas and Inspiration" so as to be more inclusive of other P-61 ideas.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2012, 01:41:30 AM »

I think it would be better if you based it on the P-61E version, it had the more powerful engines of the "C" but with a cut down fuselage and bubble tandem canopy.

Jeffry Fontaine · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:01:04 AM »

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 03, 2012, 01:41:30 AM

I think it would be better if you based it on the P-61E version, it had the more powerful engines of the "C" but with a cut down fuselage and bubble tandem canopy.

The question of kit availability and affordability is going to determine what kits and parts John is using for this project. Since it is in 1/48th scale there are limited choices and selection. Better to spend $20.00 on the Monogram kit and get it done under cost and under budget.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2012, 04:38:23 AM »

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on May 03, 2012, 02:01:04 AM

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 03, 2012, 01:41:30 AM
I think it would be better if you based it on the P-61E version, it had the more powerful engines of the "C" but with a cut down fuselage and bubble tandem canopy.

The question of kit availability and affordability is going to determine what kits and parts John is using for this project. Since it is in 1/48th scale there are limited choices and selection. Better to spend $20.00 on the Monogram kit and get it done under cost and under budget.

I would agree there Jeff, except Karl hadn't mentioned a scale. Looking in the PAK-20 book, Lone Star Models had announced a 1/48 F-15 Reporter was in the works although nothing shows up on the website.

I've got three Reporter conversions in 1/72 which I was going to use on various other P-61 variants. I can't remember who produced it now though ---- $:-\$

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:04:04 PM »

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 03, 2012, 04:38:23 AM

Looking in the PAK-20 book, Lone Star Models had announced a 1/48 F-15 Reporter was in the works although nothing shows up on the website.

It is on this page: http://www.lonestarmodels.com/conversions-1-48.html

kitnut617 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2012, 10:15:41 PM »

Quote from: GTX_Admin on May 03, 2012, 06:04:04 PM

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 03, 2012, 04:38:23 AM
Looking in the PAK-20 book, Lone Star Models had announced a 1/48 F-15 Reporter was in the works although nothing shows up on the website.

It is on this page: http://www.lonestarmodels.com/conversions-1-48.html

Cheers Greg, I missed it when I looked

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #13 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:35:14 AM »

One I did a while back for a Super P-61E:

kitnut617 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:40:47 AM »

corn-cobbed ?

finsrin · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:05:10 AM »

About half of Spider Venom is P-61. Not planned, but stumbled upon the 1/48 Venom and 1/72 P-61 wings a near perfect match. Not started as a concept to build that way. It just happened. Of help here? --- probably not. Anything can happen when you paw thru plastic parts.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2012, 04:08:38 PM »

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 04, 2012, 05:40:47 AM

corn-cobbed ?

Yep.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2012, 09:04:33 PM »

Quote from: GTX_Admin on May 04, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: kitnut617 on May 04, 2012, 05:40:47 AM
corn-cobbed ?

Yep.

Now there's a possible build coming up ---- I've got an XoticKits F2G-2 Corsair in the stash that looks like what you've drawn Greg

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2012, 02:52:23 AM »

Go for it!!!

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2013, 03:11:34 AM »

Random idea: P-61 Jet Testbed aircraft. In other words, a basic P-61 but with the turret removed and replaced with air intake and a jet engine mounted in the rear of the nacelle/pod and exhausting to the rear. Would probably also remove cannon in belly and paint in some sort of testbed scheme.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2013, 03:13:33 AM »

...and speaking of P-61 testbed aircraft:

elmayerle · « **Reply #21 on:** November 10, 2013, 06:05:37 AM »

Interesting, it suggests another testbed role for the P-61, remove the 20-mm cannon and replace that fairing and structure with a radome for testing new airborne radars in addition to the volume in the nose.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:01:26 PM »

Random Ideas:

B-61 with bomb bay
EP-61 dedicated electronic warfare aircraft
RAF P-61 in this scheme:

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:29:16 PM »

Some inspiration from our members:

perttime · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2015, 03:12:42 PM »

Quote from: GTX_Admin on August 12, 2015, 02:29:16 PM

Some inspiration from our members:

Logan has quite a few more P-61s on deviantart:
http://comradeloganov.deviantart.com/gallery/36273612/What-If-Profiles

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #25 on:** November 04, 2015, 02:58:39 AM »

What about a variant with the fuselage modified to make a transport version - basically leave the pilot's cockpit but then fair over the rest and have a rear opening hate at the rear.

Kerick · « **Reply #26 on:** November 04, 2015, 10:17:51 AM »

I've thought about an updated version in SEA colors in place of the Invaders used in Vietnam.

finsrin · « **Reply #27 on:** November 04, 2015, 10:39:32 AM »

> A-26 looks mean. Be a bad day on receiving end of that firepower.
> Updated P-61 version in SEA colors works.
> My first BTS era (21st century) kitbash is partly P-61.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=189.0

Kerick · « **Reply #28 on:** November 05, 2015, 01:57:43 AM »

Spider venom looks bada$$.

elmayerle · « **Reply #29 on:** November 05, 2015, 03:35:52 AM »

Quote from: GTX_Admin on November 04, 2015, 02:58:39 AM

What about a variant with the fuselage modified to make a transport version - basically leave the pilot's cockpit but then fair over the rest and have a rear opening hate at the rear.

Clamshell or beavertail aft hatch? The former makes for faster loading and unloading while the latter makes for easier para-dropping.

Jeffry Fontaine · « **Reply #30 on:** November 05, 2015, 06:41:14 AM »

Quote from: elmayerle on November 05, 2015, 03:35:52 AM

Quote from: GTX_Admin on November 04, 2015, 02:58:39 AM
What about a variant with the fuselage modified to make a transport version - basically leave the pilot's cockpit but then fair over the rest and have a rear opening hate at the rear.
Clamshell or beavertail aft hatch? The former makes for faster loading and unloading while the latter makes for easier para-dropping.

Kit bashing between an Italeri 1:72nd scale C-119 and a 1:48th scale P-61?

upnorth · « **Reply #31 on:** November 05, 2015, 02:09:57 PM »

A couple of ideas:

1: Turboprop power via a pair of Darts.

2: Firekiller role. If the WWII era fuselage was kept, a retardant tank could be put in the belly gun bay area with a spray device installed in place of the rear crewman's entry/exit hatch.

The firekiller role could also extend to other aerial spray jobs as well I would imagine.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #32 on:** November 06, 2015, 03:03:44 AM »

Quote from: elmayerle on November 05, 2015, 03:35:52 AM

Quote from: GTX_Admin on November 04, 2015, 02:58:39 AM
What about a variant with the fuselage modified to make a transport version - basically leave the pilot's cockpit but then fair over the rest and have a rear opening hate at the rear.

Clamshell or beavertail aft hatch? The former makes for faster loading and unloading while the latter makes for easier para-dropping.

I was actually thinking of something quite simple like that on the rear of the OV-10:

In fact, the OV-10 is probably closest to what I had in mind re the Cargo CP-61 derivative:

Possible application could be covert dropping of operatives/special forces teams in occupied Europe or USSR in either an extended WWII or early Cold/Hot WWIII scenario.

jcf · « **Reply #33 on:** June 23, 2016, 12:35:39 PM »

Speaking of cargo proposals.

- from the new book.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #34 on:** June 24, 2016, 02:14:54 AM »

Gingie · « **Reply #35 on:** June 26, 2016, 11:38:07 AM »

Quote from: jcf on June 23, 2016, 12:35:39 PM

Reminds me of one of these:

Alvis 3.1 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 26, 2016, 12:47:41 PM »

Well, there's a use for one of the many 1/48 Monogram (Or the Great Wall) P-61s I have laying around!

Alvis 3.1

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #37 on:** October 13, 2016, 04:29:01 AM »

Random idea:

Take two 1/48 P-61s and merge them into a 4 engined (and 4 boomed) aircraft with a longer centre pod (maybe) which is also streamlined to remove step ups. Rescale to 1/72 and make it a long range transporter/airliner maybe with booms also holding cargo.

Will ty to sketch something up shortly to better illustrate.

ericr · « **Reply #38 on:** October 13, 2016, 04:58:12 AM »

by the way, on this topic I had a banana crossing idea :

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4100.msg115836#msg115836

Kerick · « **Reply #39 on:** October 14, 2016, 08:38:21 AM »

The transport version looks really interesting.

I have a Revelogram 1/48th P-61 a friend gave me. I would like to build an updated version with turbo prop engines. Anybody have a good suggestion as where to get something to kitbash with? I'm on the verge of trying to scratch build something believable.

Jeffry Fontaine · « **Reply #40 on:** October 14, 2016, 08:42:40 AM »

Ask Alvis about modifying the P-61. He built a very nice what-if turbine powered Black Widow COIN bird several years ago.

Kerick · « **Reply #41 on:** October 14, 2016, 08:45:19 AM »

Thank you! I'll do that!

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #42 on:** October 15, 2016, 02:23:31 AM »

One option if you wanted to use the RR Dart in 1/48 would be to get a pair of the 1/48 Heritage Cavalier Turbo Mustang 111 conversions:

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #43 on:** October 16, 2016, 05:23:31 AM »

The Big Gimper · « **Reply #44 on:** October 16, 2016, 06:35:48 AM »

Wow!!! Where does the flight engineer sit?

Kelmola · « **Reply #45 on:** December 25, 2017, 06:57:01 AM »

Quote from: kerick on November 04, 2015, 10:17:51 AM

I've thought about an updated version in SEA colors in place of the Invaders used in Vietnam.

If sufficently intact hulks would have been available in the Boneyard (but weren't in OTL), that would have actually made more sense: P-61 already had a radar (which could have been upgraded to one that could track ground targets) so would be inherently more suited to the night role.

Also, its turret was originally designed to fire sideways as an offensive weapon (instead of the Invader's two remote control defensive turrets), meaning that in a pinch it could have acted as a poor man's gunship, circling the area and strafing sideways (volume of fire and ammo capacity from four Ma Deuces on a nightfighter will obviously be lower than a cargo plane full of Miniguns and Vulcans). They even experimented with the turret automatically aiming and firing at targets designated by its radar already back in WW2, if the radar could have picked up trucks it should've made quite an impression on the Ho Chi Minh Trail (provided that the inability to aim downwards would not have prevented its use against ground targets).

I wonder if it had been called F/A-61K or AF-61K, or just F-61K?

The Big Gimper · « **Reply #46 on:** December 25, 2017, 09:47:30 AM »

Hope these help. All courtesy of John "Maverick" Lacey.

FAA-TBT-1A-Blue-Widow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

SEAC-P-61D-BrownWidow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

SEAC-P-61C-Green-Widow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

RN-P-61B-GreyWidow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

RCAF-P-61G-Blackwidow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

RCAF-P-61E-BlackWidow by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

RCAF-CF-61-Blackwidow-Camo by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

RAAF-P-61E-01 by
Big Gimper, on Flickr

Kerick · « **Reply #47 on:** June 06, 2019, 10:04:45 PM »

Any ideas how to convert a 1/48th P-61 to a turbo powered version? I've been kicking this idea around for a long time ever since my friend gave me a 1/48th Monogram kit. I'm sure he's wondering if I'm ever going to build it. I just can't seem to get any traction on this idea and I'm hoping you guys can help.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #48 on:** June 06, 2019, 10:19:47 PM »

I've been playing with the idea to turbo-prop a DC-6, I looked at aircraft with similar engines which had been converted to turbo-prop. The Canadair CL-215 was R-2800 powered, same as the P-61, and the CL-415 was turbo-prop converted with PW123's. Viking is converting CL-215's into CL-215T's using the same engine. I think something along those lines would work for your project kerick. There is a turbo-prop conversion set for the Grumman Tracker, in 1/48 too IIRC. You could use that as a starting point.

tankmodeler · « **Reply #49 on:** June 07, 2019, 01:02:05 AM »

Quote from: kerick on June 06, 2019, 10:04:45 PM

Any ideas how to convert a 1/48th P-61 to a turbo powered version?

What is the time period and who might the operator have been? I'f you're thinking mid-50s to late 60s you options are rather limited, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You could pick from RR Darts as well as even the twin Mamba of the Gannet. The Dart is handy because the shape of the nacelle is cylindrical and easier to scratchbuild. If you want to have more power, the Armstrong Siddeley Python, from the Wyvern, comes in at about 3500 hp allowing an increase in capability in the Black Widow.

Just some thoughts to help frame your project.

Kerick · « **Reply #50 on:** June 07, 2019, 01:26:06 AM »

Thanks for the suggestions! I was thinking of late to post Vietnam so late sixties into the seventies. Markings could be US or South Vietnam or whatever shows up in the decal stash. Perhaps the aircraft get given to the Philipine government after Vietnam. Sort of like the A/B-26 story but with turbo prop upgrades. Numerous weapons choices.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #51 on:** June 07, 2019, 03:28:14 AM »

My first preference would be to go the RR Dart path using something such as a pair of the Heritage Aviation Models Cavalier Turbo Mustang III conversions:

The S-2T conversion with TPE331s or PT6s would also be a good option, though I am not aware of a conversion kit for either (there was/is a 1/72 conversion though)

Another option might be to use a set up similar to the PT6 powered BT-67 Turbo Dak and using something like a Red Bear Conversion if you can find one (i have one in my stash but you're not getting that

):

kitnut617 · « **Reply #52 on:** June 07, 2019, 06:30:56 AM »

If you go the Dart route, you could go this route too

Kerick · « **Reply #53 on:** June 07, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »

The Dart installation from the Cavalier Turbo Mustang III looks pretty good. Extra parts for carrying weapons too.
My one other thought was using regular Mustang Merlin noses and add a scoop to make it look like the PT6.

elmayerle · « **Reply #54 on:** June 07, 2019, 12:46:04 PM »

Unfortunately, Heritage Aviation Models is no more. I think one of the antipodean specialist firms (Kiwi Resins?) do a conversion, or did a conversion. I know Red Roo does/did a kit to model the Australian Dart-Mustang in 1/72 but I don't know if they do/did it in 1/48.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #55 on:** June 07, 2019, 10:53:22 PM »

Heritage Aviation is now called Kits for Cash and Ian does have some resin conversions he didn't sell. They're under the Simian Stuff link on their website.

https://www.kitsforcash.com/

IIRC, in his latest news page, he said he sold all his other moulds to AlleyCat.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #56 on:** June 08, 2019, 02:01:56 AM »

Quote from: elmayerle on June 07, 2019, 12:46:04 PM

Unfortunately, Heritage Aviation Models is no more. I think one of the antipodean specialist firms (Kiwi Resins?) do a conversion, or did a conversion. I know Red Roo does/did a kit to model the Australian Dart-Mustang in 1/72 but I don't know if they do/did it in 1/48.

You can still occasionally find some Heritage Aviation conversions around the place such as eBay.
Kiwi Resins or Kiwi Models is out of business too. Regardless, their conversion was not for the turboprop version:

The Red Roo one is 1/72 only.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #57 on:** June 08, 2019, 02:47:30 AM »

Looking at the options and looking just at engine power (not factoring in weight or other dimensions):

P-61	RR Dart Conversion based upon Cavalier Mustang	S-2T based conversion	Conair Firecat based conversion	Convair CV-580 style conversion	Basler BT-67 style conversion
P&W R2800 Radial Piston	RR Dart Mk.510 (RDa.6) Turboprop	Honeywell TPE-331-15AW Turboprop	PT6A-67AF Turboprop	Allison 501/T56 Turboprop	PT6A-67R Turboprop
2000hp - 2800hp ea depending upon model fitted	1535 - 1,670 shp ea	1,645 shp ea	1,220 shp ea	3,750 shp ea	1,281 shp ea

From this quick analysis one can see that the power rating for most turboprop versions is much less than that for the original R2800s, though this is offset significantly by the reduced weight, with all turboprops listed being lighter than the R2800s, some significantly so such as the PT6 and TPE331 which come in at around 15 - 20% of the weight of the radial.

That said, given the powers/weights and moreso, for modelling purposes, the availability of kits/conversions, maybe using the Allison 501/T56 as the basis might be the way to go. As indicated above, you could use the Convair CV-580 as the basis for this conversion. This started off as the Convair CV-340 (see below) with two R-2800 CB-17 engines each rated at 2,500 hp (1,890 kW) and with three-blade propellers, thus giving commonality with the original P-61.

The CV-580 added (amongst other changes) two Allison 501 D13D/H turboprop engines with four-blade propellers, each rated at 3,750 eshp (2,800 kW).

Therefore, the conversions are very comparable. Most importantly, from the model building perspective, you should be able to get parts by Lone Star Models - see https://www.lonestarmodels.com/store/p_109399/lsm-40469-p-3-cowlings-props:

Not only is this realistic based upon the real world, it is doable from a modelling perspective (though with still quite a bit of work to blend the engines in, especially given the P-61 has the twin booms) and also will look really different since I doubt anyone has done a T56 conversion of a WWII aircraft before.

elmayerle · « **Reply #58 on:** June 08, 2019, 02:56:31 AM »

I like the T56 suggestion. Going with the Orion nacelles sounds like the best approach and I would suggest that the exhausts be angled to the outside of the booms and upward. *chuckle* If you really want to disturb people further, also purchase and use aftermarket C-130J propellers.

Kerick · « **Reply #59 on:** June 08, 2019, 12:58:14 PM »

Or the Hamilton Sundstrand NP2000 propellers from the E-2 Hawkeye/C-2 Greyhound.

A huge thank you to GTX_Admin for that research. I thought about the T-56 but considered to to be too much for a direct replacement. This might just be the ticket. Now I'll have to look up the prop diameters but that will be easy. Maybe a story about the P-61 that found its way to Vietnam and sprouted two "lost" C-130 engines. Crazy things happen in a war zone. Hmmm, CIA, Air America needed an armed escort for its cargo planes.......?

elmayerle · « **Reply #60 on:** June 08, 2019, 01:04:18 PM »

Perhaps the CIA, via its predecessor organizations, had more in its classified "boneyard" than most would suspect? I wonder how that nose would fit the A-6's avionics fit for night/all-weather action?

kitnut617 · « **Reply #61 on:** June 08, 2019, 09:09:32 PM »

Quote from: elmayerle on June 08, 2019, 01:04:18 PM

I wonder how that nose would fit the A-6's avionics fit for night/all-weather action?

Interesting comment that Evan --- just last night I was reading an article about Gulfstream 1's in the very latest Air-Britain Aviation World (Summer 2019 addition) which arrived Thursday. There's some photos of USN Gulfstreams with A-6 noses attached to them. The article says the Gulfstream was a competitor of the Convair.

Kerick · « **Reply #62 on:** June 08, 2019, 11:09:40 PM »

And looks like RR Dart engines too.
How about the low light TV or IR systems from back in the day?

elmayerle · « **Reply #63 on:** June 09, 2019, 12:28:15 AM »

Yeah, the TC-4C Academe; all nine of them trained legions of A-6 bombardier-navigators. From what I understand, it was considered a very good aircraft for its role (must have been pretty-much "right-on", records show only one was lost).

You might have a bit of a challenge blending an A-6 nose on to the nose of a P-61, but the TC-4C certainly shows it can be done cleanly.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #64 on:** June 09, 2019, 03:05:42 AM »

Quote from: kerick on June 08, 2019, 12:58:14 PM

Or the Hamilton Sundstrand NP2000 propellers from the E-2 Hawkeye/C-2 Greyhound.

Depends upon what era you are looking at the build being from. The NP2000 only started being used around 2000. It is actually a military derivative of the commercial, six-bladed 568F propeller which has been in service since 1995. If used on a P-61, the airframe would be in excess of 50 yrs old be then so maybe pushing it. As it was, in the real world the P-61s were effectively retired from service in 1950. That said, a stretch into the 50s or even 60's might be doable though to the 2000s...well maybe a step too far (depending upon the degree of realism in your build).

For comparison, the CV-580 conversions thatI used as the basis of my recommendation took place starting in 1960. Before that an experimental installation of Allison T56 engines (actually the earlier T38) into a CV-240 in 1950 was quite successful and the military YC-131C conversion first flew on June 19 1954 as well. Therefore a T56 powered P-61 is not totally out of the question with the airframes only needing to be kept in service for another decade or so rather than half a century.

Quote from: kerick on June 08, 2019, 12:58:14 PM

Now I'll have to look up the prop diameters but that will be easy.

P-3 Orion propeller diameter: 13 ft 6 in (4.11 m)
P-61 Black Widow propeller diameter: 146 in (3.72 m)

Therefore, the P-3 ones I mentioned earlier should work.

Quote from: kerick on June 08, 2019, 12:58:14 PM

Maybe a story about the P-61 that found its way to Vietnam and sprouted two "lost" C-130 engines. Crazy things happen in a war zone. Hmmm, CIA, Air America needed an armed escort for its cargo planes.......?

Another option might be simply to say that for commonality purposes (with C-130s etc) the R2800s were replaced. Moreover, the advantages of turbine power included less maintenance, lighter weight, and better performance which would also be a big plus. For example, the conversion of a CV-340 to CV-580 increased the cruising speed from 284 mph to 342 mph, and the range from 2,000 to 2800 miles.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #65 on:** June 09, 2019, 03:13:13 AM »

Quote from: kerick on June 08, 2019, 11:09:40 PM

And looks like RR Dart engines too.
How about the low light TV or IR systems from back in the day?

You might consider the Tropic Moon III B-57G as a basis for something:

In fact, going back to my last post, maybe have the Turboprop P-61 operating alongside AC-130s in the Operation Commando Hunt aerial interdiction campaign. In the real world AC-130s flew under F-4 Phantom II escort (to protect the gunship against heavy and concentrated AAA fire) but maybe in the alternate world, something a bit slower than the F-4 was sought hence the P-61. This would also give reason for the T56 change so as to increase engine commonality and thus reduce maintenance burden. If given a B-57G style undergoes fit out, the extra power might also come in use.

elmayerle · « **Reply #66 on:** June 09, 2019, 03:54:26 AM »

I like the idea of incorporating the Tropic Moon III gear, it makes a lot of sense and the P-61 would have the room for the electronics. I could definitely see some pulled from storage and modified for this purpose.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #67 on:** June 09, 2019, 03:58:52 AM »

Another option you might consider is swapping the engines/nacelles from a OV-1 Mohawk (though personally, I still like the T56 idea). This would give you a pair of T53 turboprops at 1,400 hp (1044 kW) ea. Less that the R2800s but again, lighter at about a third of the weight and commonality with UH-1s in Vietnam. Moreover, you might put the R2800s back on the OV-1 to create a second whiff...

tankmodeler · « **Reply #68 on:** June 11, 2019, 12:26:34 AM »

Quote from: kerick on June 07, 2019, 11:28:49 AM

The Dart installation from the Cavalier Turbo Mustang III looks pretty good. Extra parts for carrying weapons too.
My one other thought was using regular Mustang Merlin noses and add a scoop to make it look like the PT6.

PT-6s of the time period were relatively small, in the 450-750 hp range. 1700 hp engines, the larger PT-6 series, didn't come about until the early 70s through 80s and none of them hit the 2250 HP of the R-2800s. A late 60s PT-6 engined Black Widow will be a pig, from a performance p.o.v.

Just sayin'.

I used to work as a design engineer at P&WC on PW100s, 200s, 300s and 500s and the JT-15D.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #69 on:** June 11, 2019, 12:33:18 AM »

An engine which would fit in your time frame is a RR Tyne. They were initially designed for the 2500hp range but when tested was producing over 4000hp. And I've found that the Tynes on an Atlantique have nacelles about the right diameter for R-2800's. I've been looking at putting a set on a DC-6 but it looks like Aircraft in Miniature are going to be doing a DC-7 conversion so I think I'll put them on a DC-7 instead.

tankmodeler · « **Reply #70 on:** June 11, 2019, 12:34:44 AM »

T-56s are a great choice. Same with Tynes, depending on the operator. Even if massively over-powered compared to the R-2800s, they would provide additional peacetime safety by allowing a max-weight engine out without risking the aircraft plowing into the woods at the end of the runway. WW2 era multi-engined aircraft were noticeably underpowered with one engine out and virtually suicidal if they lost an engine at max weight on take-off. The extra power from a T56 or Tyne would provide sufficient thrust to get you safely airborne to allow a controlled landing as needed.

GTX_Admin · « **Reply #71 on:** June 11, 2019, 02:24:06 AM »

Quote from: kitnut617 on June 11, 2019, 12:33:18 AM

An engine which would fit in your time frame is a RR Tyne. They were initially designed for the 2500hp range but when tested was producing over 4000hp. And I've found that the Tynes on an Atlantique have nacelles about the right diameter for R-2800's. I've been looking at putting a set on a DC-6 but it looks like Aircraft in Miniature are going to be doing a DC-7 conversion so I think I'll put them on a DC-7 instead.

The RR Tyne would be an option except I don't know of any available in 1/48 which is the scale build being looked at here.

kitnut617 · « **Reply #72 on:** June 11, 2019, 02:51:13 AM »

Ah! right, forgot it was in that funny scale

jcf · « **Reply #73 on:** June 11, 2019, 04:49:30 AM »

P-61 nacelles are round at the firewall and cylindrical for much of their length.
Many Dart installations are basically a cylinder, use a tube of appropriate size with a
tapered nose, glue a smaller tube, or tubes depending on desired intake size and sand
the end into the desired shape.

Why muck about trying to fit non-cylindrical cowlings off of some other kit?, which
would also cost more.