North American A3J (A-5) Vigilante

[elmayerle]

The extended ventral canoe on the NAR-349 had an IRST at the front and provided attachment points for 6 x AIM-54 or AIM-47 missiles.  Using the AGM-76 conversion of the AIM-47 or a similar conversion of the AIM-54 could make for an interesting "pathfinder/path-maker" aircraft.

[jcf]

Dump and burn:


Posted on What-If by Mossie, from the SADSM stream on flickr:
North American RA-5C Vigilante

[GTX_Admin]

 :)

[Damian]

EA-5, a KA-5

I am sure that I drew these up a while back...but do you think I can find them...

Well, here's your EA-5!

Reminds me to go back to that peice of mine 

[GTX_Admin]

What if we were to fit a rocket in the central weapons tunnel…satellite launcher perhaps?

[Volkodav]

When Australia selects the A-5B as a Canberra replacement a minimum change long range interceptor version is also specified to equip three new long range interceptor squadrons and an OCU, one serving with each fighter wing in Wiliamtown and Butterworth and a stand alone squadron in Darwin.  A total of 72 of the Vigilante Interceptors is ordered the Aircraft is fitted with the Ferranti Airpass radar, also used by the RAAFs Lightnings and Avon Mirages, and carries Fire Streak, Red Top and Sparrow missiles as well as being fitted with an internal 30mm Aden cannon.  Its role is primarily as a long range bomber killer, supplementing the Lightning point defence interceptors and the Mirage IIIO tactical fighter bombers.

With a total of 72 interceptors, 48 strike and 18 reconnaissance Vigilantes local production is seen as a must with CAC producing the aircraft from 1963 unto 1970.

 

[GTX_Admin]

I would possibly consider something like a AN/APQ-72 from a F-4 Phantom II as the radar.

[Volkodav]

I would possibly consider something like a AN/APQ-72 from a F-4 Phantom II as the radar.

I actually wrote that first then changed it as I was going for commonality with the Lightnings and Miracles, but yes it would probably be a better fit.  The other option is a Super Tiger instead of the Mirage III so not sure.  The idea is the sabre is superseded in production by the FJ-4B and cascaded to the RAAF Active Reserve and allies then the Fury is in turn superceded by the Mirage or Tiger. The Lightning is an urgent acquisition as a point defence interceptor with detachments, permanent and reserve, and occasionally squadrons protecting critical sights; the Vigilante Interceptor is obtained as a longer term solution as a long range interceptor to work in conjunction with the Lockheed Warningstars on continental and regional air defence.  The strike roled Vigilantes are intended primarily to take out air defences, airfields and command and control facilities, being followed up by the Mirage in tactical strike.

[GTX_Admin]

Random Idea:  A-5 with Avro Blue Steel missile semi-submerged under fuselage

[kitnut617]

Random Idea:  A-5 with Avro Blue Steel missile semi-submerged under fuselage

Hmm! I don't know Greg, the Blue Steel is quite a big missile ---   I think I've read somewhere that there was plans to have the TSR2 carry it, placing a Blue Steel next to a TSR2 I just don't see it -  (I'll get a photo taken just for everyone to see)

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Have to concur with Robert, the Blue Steel is/was huge.  Dimensions and weight details courtesy of Wikipedia Blue Steel Missile

Weight    17,000 lb (7,700 kg)
Length    10.7 m (35 ft 1 in)
Diameter    1.22 m (48 in) minimum
Wingspan    4 m (13 ft 1 in)

Additional search results for Blue Steel

Maybe something like the Blue Steel but about one-half to one-third in size might have been a contender but certainly not a full size Blue Steel.  Something like the W.130 would be ideal as it was proposed to be used with the TSR.2.  Nothing useful on-line but Secret Projects - British Hypersonics, Ramjets, and Missiles has a few drawings of the weapon including one suggesting semi-recessed carriage on the TSR.2. (Page 119)

[GTX_Admin]

Bah!  Practicality be damned...

Maybe a pair of Blue Water missiles instead:

[GTX_Admin]

Maybe something such as a ASMP under the belly instead



Speaking of which, does anyone do one in 1/48?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe something such as a ASMP under the belly instead



Speaking of which, does anyone do one in 1/48?

There may be a resin ASMP available. 

I have a couple of the ASMP shapes that were included in the Heller Mirage IVP kit and the Heller/Eduard Mirage 2000D kit.

If you want them, you know where to find me next time you are in town :)

[kitnut617]

I'm fairly sure I've read in one of the BSP books, there was a plan for a scaled down Blue Steel, maybe that was what was planned for the TSR2, if so that would work for an A-5 I think.  I seem to remember now that the smaller missile was to be about 2/3rd the original size

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I'm fairly sure I've read in one of the BSP books, there was a plan for a scaled down Blue Steel, maybe that was what was planned for the TSR2, if so that would work for an A-5 I think.  I seem to remember now that the smaller missile was to be about 2/3rd the original size

The W.130 referred to in the text and drawings in the British Secret Projects book does look a bit like a scaled down Blue Steel albeit with the forward control fins located right at the nose of the missile. 

[elmayerle]

I'm fairly sure I've read in one of the BSP books, there was a plan for a scaled down Blue Steel, maybe that was what was planned for the TSR2, if so that would work for an A-5 I think.  I seem to remember now that the smaller missile was to be about 2/3rd the original size

The W.130 referred to in the text and drawings in the British Secret Projects book does look a bit like a scaled down Blue Steel albeit with the forward control fins located right at the nose of the missile.

That sounds like the store the RAF was discussing in talking to Avro-Canada about a strike version of the Arrow.

[Kerick]

Strike Arrow! Now that is a whiff begging to be built!

[elmayerle]

Strike Arrow! Now that is a whiff begging to be built!

if you can find Randall Whitcomb's book on the Arrow, I believe he has a piece of concept art. attached, of it based on what Jim Floyd described to him; it would have been based on the Arrow Mk. III with the Fieri intakes.

[Volkodav]

How about Australia announces the selection of the Vigilante in late 1963 and is still in the process of determining the exact configuration of the aircraft when it becomes apparent to the RAF and British industry that the TSR2 is living on borrowed time.  The RAF becomes desperate to find a backup plan that is not the Blackburn Buccaneer and British industry is looking for anything that isn't a US built F-111 with hardly any local content, Australia's earlier decision appears to offer a solution.

End result is a minimum change but Anglicised A-5B, using systems from the TSR2 and Buccaneer, assembled in the UK and Australia from a mix of UK and Australian components, as well as carry over US assemblies.

[elmayerle]

How about Australia announces the selection of the Vigilante in late 1963 and is still in the process of determining the exact configuration of the aircraft when it becomes apparent to the RAF and British industry that the TSR2 is living on borrowed time.  The RAF becomes desperate to find a backup plan that is not the Blackburn Buccaneer and British industry is looking for anything that isn't a US built F-111 with hardly any local content, Australia's earlier decision appears to offer a solution.

End result is a minimum change but Anglicised A-5B, using systems from the TSR2 and Buccaneer, assembled in the UK and Australia from a mix of UK and Australian components, as well as carry over US assemblies.

Would it be fitted with British engines or would they stay with the J79?  I would hope the later as there really weren't any equivalent engines at the time (the variable stators on the J79 offering better performance than equivalent single-spool engines without them) and trying to fit larger engines would be expensive because you would need to completely re-do the forged frame that has the spindles for the all-moving horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.

[M.A.D]

How about Australia announces the selection of the Vigilante in late 1963 and is still in the process of determining the exact configuration of the aircraft when it becomes apparent to the RAF and British industry that the TSR2 is living on borrowed time.  The RAF becomes desperate to find a backup plan that is not the Blackburn Buccaneer and British industry is looking for anything that isn't a US built F-111 with hardly any local content, Australia's earlier decision appears to offer a solution.

End result is a minimum change but Anglicised A-5B, using systems from the TSR2 and Buccaneer, assembled in the UK and Australia from a mix of UK and Australian components, as well as carry over US assemblies.

I like it Volkodav!

M.A.D

[Rickshaw]

How about Australia announces the selection of the Vigilante in late 1963 and is still in the process of determining the exact configuration of the aircraft when it becomes apparent to the RAF and British industry that the TSR2 is living on borrowed time.  The RAF becomes desperate to find a backup plan that is not the Blackburn Buccaneer and British industry is looking for anything that isn't a US built F-111 with hardly any local content, Australia's earlier decision appears to offer a solution.

End result is a minimum change but Anglicised A-5B, using systems from the TSR2 and Buccaneer, assembled in the UK and Australia from a mix of UK and Australian components, as well as carry over US assemblies.

Would it be fitted with British engines or would they stay with the J79?  I would hope the later as there really weren't any equivalent engines at the time (the variable stators on the J79 offering better performance than equivalent single-spool engines without them) and trying to fit larger engines would be expensive because you would need to completely re-do the forged frame that has the spindles for the all-moving horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.

The Spey is a comparable British engine with only some 110mm difference in diameter (Spey - 1092.2 mm versus J79 - 980mm).  That amount of difference could be easily handled by a small compression "ring" which passes through the forged frame and then re-expands on the other side.  It might actually lead to a slight increase in thrust from the Spey.  The Spey is a Turbofan and hence more economical and cleaner burning than the J79 (which were notoriously smoky burners).

[Volkodav]

How about Australia announces the selection of the Vigilante in late 1963 and is still in the process of determining the exact configuration of the aircraft when it becomes apparent to the RAF and British industry that the TSR2 is living on borrowed time.  The RAF becomes desperate to find a backup plan that is not the Blackburn Buccaneer and British industry is looking for anything that isn't a US built F-111 with hardly any local content, Australia's earlier decision appears to offer a solution.

End result is a minimum change but Anglicised A-5B, using systems from the TSR2 and Buccaneer, assembled in the UK and Australia from a mix of UK and Australian components, as well as carry over US assemblies.

Would it be fitted with British engines or would they stay with the J79?  I would hope the later as there really weren't any equivalent engines at the time (the variable stators on the J79 offering better performance than equivalent single-spool engines without them) and trying to fit larger engines would be expensive because you would need to completely re-do the forged frame that has the spindles for the all-moving horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.

I'm agnostic on the engines but for this to work there can't be any major delays and re-engining would likely do just that. 

What did cross my mind is if the RAF ended up with the Vigilante and either the J-79, or an alternative that fits through the forging without major modification, it could lead to a very different F-4K/M Phantom.  This would especially be the case if the TSR2 requirement had been re-evaluated (using accurate maps) and Mountbatten got his new strike carriers and there was no longer the need for the specific small carrier Phantom.

[elmayerle]

Oh, I agree, a re-engining program would make for significant delays and should be avoided.  I could see upgrades to the J79 being pursued even more intently than in our history with possible licensed production in either Australia or the UK.  I wonder if availability of J79s would lead to Mirage IIIO derivatives similar to the Kfir?