Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 25, 2012, 01:44:02 PM

Title: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 25, 2012, 01:44:02 PM
For anyone interested, ANZAC Steel (http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/index.htm) has a very nice article on the M113 Fire Support Vehicle (http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m113a1fsvph_1.htm) uploaded with several images that I have never seen before today. 

Click on thumbnail for larger image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/M113_FSV.JPG/120px-M113_FSV.JPG) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/M113_FSV.JPG)
(Image source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M113_FSV.JPG))


Links:

M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle, Written by Paul D. Handel (http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m113a1fsvph_1.htm)

ANZAC Steel main page (http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/index.htm)

Wikipedia - M113 Armored Personnel Carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier)

Wikipedia - Variants of the M113 armored personnel carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variants_of_the_M113_armored_personnel_carrier)

Wikipedia - Lynx (M113½ )) Command and Reconnaissance Vehicle (M113 C&R) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_reconnaissance_vehicle)

Google search results for "M113 Armored Personnel Carrier" (http://www.google.com/search?q=M113A1+Fire+Support+Vehicle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=M113%20Armor&pq=m113a1%20fire%20support%20vehicle&cp=11&gs_id=a9&xhr=t&q=M113%20Armored%20personnel%20carrier&pf=p&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=rcs&biw=1608&bih=1027&sclient=psy-ab&oq=M113+Armord&aq=0l&aqi=g-l2g-lv2&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=eb7cf3fcbafa469a)

Google image search results for "M113 Armored Personnel Carrier" (http://www.google.com/search?q=m113+armored+personnel+carrier&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=R42XT6SeAeqkiQLv0NC7Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1608&bih=1027)



Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on April 27, 2012, 06:00:48 AM
'The Bucket Shop' was a great resource for M113 reference and model stuff. Alas, The Bucket Shop is now gone but the Internet Archive has preserved most of its pages (and images):

http://web.archive.org/web/20011202055935/http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/bucket/intro.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20011202055935/http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/bucket/intro.htm)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 27, 2012, 06:25:26 AM
Australian T-50 M113 Conversion (http://www.firestormmodels.com/store/product.php?productid=1296&cat=58&page=1)

(http://www.firestormmodels.com/store/images/P/p-1158.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on April 30, 2012, 12:47:44 PM
.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on April 30, 2012, 01:00:54 PM
Obadiah's Fire-engines   http://wildfirefighters.com/ (http://wildfirefighters.com/)

(http://www.wildfirefighters.com/dirtyfmc.jpg)
(http://www.wildfirefighters.com/images/bubba%20launchin%20downhill%20from%20the%20top%20optmzd.jpg)
(http://www.wildfirefighters.com/20tontag.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 30, 2012, 07:28:42 PM
Australian T-50 M113 Conversion

One version of the 1/35th scale M113 from Academy does include the T-50 turret plus a few other interesting items such as the M40 Recoilless Rifle and flame thrower turret for the M132 Flame Track. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 30, 2012, 07:34:33 PM
Australian T-50 M113 Conversion ([url]http://www.firestormmodels.com/store/product.php?productid=1296&cat=58&page=1[/url])

([url]http://www.firestormmodels.com/store/images/P/p-1158.jpg[/url])


I wonder what the copper wire is meant to be.  I've never seen  T150 turret with a guard or handle shaped like that on it.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on April 30, 2012, 08:45:06 PM
Apparently the guard is a "Fire suppression rail" to stop the possibility of firing the mgs into the cargo area of the Bucket.

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/firestorm/fst081.htm (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/firestorm/fst081.htm)  (specifically the 3rd Photo & paragraph directly above this).

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: jcf on May 01, 2012, 04:06:04 AM
The book Vietnam Tracks, includes a photo in which one can see an ARVN M113 equipped with an M8 armored-car
turret, along with photos of M74C turret equipped ARVN and Oz vehicles.

Another early ARVN addition was the mounting of armored helicopter seats on top of the original ACAV-type vehicles for
unit commanders and their US advisors. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on May 01, 2012, 04:54:26 AM
I do wonder if a version that would have six road wheels per side would degrade it's swimming capability.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 01, 2012, 05:15:45 AM
Another early ARVN addition was the mounting of armored helicopter seats on top of the original ACAV-type vehicles for unit commanders and their US advisors.


Also known as "Pimping Your Ride" :)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 01, 2012, 02:41:27 PM
I do wonder if a version that would have six road wheels per side would degrade it's swimming capability.

The Australian Army uses the M113AS4 which is a six roadwheel modification of the baseline M113.  It isn't amphibious at all although it's also uparmoured which could account for this degrade in capability.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 01, 2012, 03:07:58 PM
I do wonder if a version that would have six road wheels per side would degrade it's swimming capability.


The Australian Army uses the M113AS4 which is a six roadwheel modification of the baseline M113.  It isn't amphibious at all although it's also uparmoured which could account for this degrade in capability.

Regards,

John


As seen here (http://www.military-today.com/apc/m113as4.htm)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/m113as4_l3.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on May 03, 2012, 06:51:55 AM
I just may try to build a version like that, :o
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on May 03, 2012, 09:19:41 AM
I just may try to build a version like that, :o


how about like this ??
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/t3.png)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 03, 2012, 06:07:05 PM
Apparently the guard is a "Fire suppression rail" to stop the possibility of firing the mgs into the cargo area of the Bucket.

[url]http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/firestorm/fst081.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/firestorm/fst081.htm[/url])  (specifically the 3rd Photo & paragraph directly above this).

Regards,

John


I still reckon its a pretty rare thing.  As I've said I've never seen one and while I don't claim I've seen every one of the 800+ M113s we bought, if it was common I'd have expected to see it at least sometimes.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 03, 2012, 06:14:49 PM
Have to agree there Brian.  Although it's mentioned often enough in various sources, the Buckets I saw/rode in were without it.  Perhaps it was considered superfluous in an operational sense and was removed at the unit level?

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 03, 2012, 06:26:26 PM
Have to agree there Brian.  Although it's mentioned often enough in various sources, the Buckets I saw/rode in were without it.  Perhaps it was considered superfluous in an operational sense and was removed at the unit level?

Regards,

John

More than likely not bothered with.  I don't see that much value in it being there, except as a grab handle for the diggers in the back when they're standing in the hatch.  It would have been a valuable part of the vehicle CES and knowing QMs, not issued for fear of loss.  ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on May 04, 2012, 06:32:45 AM
I just may try to build a version like that, :o


how about like this ??
([url]http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/t3.png[/url])

What kind of turning radius does that long version have? :-\
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 04, 2012, 06:36:41 AM
Depending on the steering system, it could potentially turn on a dime as the Yanks say.  Simply one track forwards and the other going in reverse and voila!  Might take a shade longer than a conventional vehicle though.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on May 04, 2012, 09:32:59 AM
Have to agree there Brian.  Although it's mentioned often enough in various sources, the Buckets I saw/rode in were without it.  Perhaps it was considered superfluous in an operational sense and was removed at the unit level?

It was an initial thing from when they were first modified and soon found to be superfluous and removed or not fitted.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on May 04, 2012, 09:45:57 AM
M113 with the ARES Talon 35mm gun.

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/ares_talon_01.png)

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/ares_talon_02.png)

Would look good beside a Tracked Rapier.

Circa 1979, based on the M548 TLC. Each gun fired at 1,200 rpm a 35mm shell at 1,175 mps.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on May 04, 2012, 09:49:16 AM
Rarely seen M113 AVLB. Bridge was 33' long and could support 15 tons.

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M113_AVLB.png)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 04, 2012, 10:23:34 PM
They trialled that in Vietnam IIRC.  Obviously not a success as it basically sank from history without a trace, like the Sheridan one.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 05, 2012, 03:05:46 AM
M113 with the ARES Talon 35mm gun.

([url]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/ares_talon_01.png[/url])

([url]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/ares_talon_02.png[/url])

Would look good beside a Tracked Rapier.

Circa 1979, based on the M548 TLC. Each gun fired at 1,200 rpm a 35mm shell at 1,175 mps.


I really like the look of that - makes this sketch I did a little more plausible too:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/M270flak.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: abtex on May 06, 2012, 09:25:25 PM
"Generational Change scared. The new face of OPFOR."
http://strangernn.livejournal.com/578171.html (http://strangernn.livejournal.com/578171.html)

M113 doing imitations of Soviet tanks.
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i601/1204/55/4cd95c9970bd.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 06, 2012, 10:12:12 PM
The article is quite interesting reading.  The Russians (quite rightly) ask the question "why US OPFOR equipment is still 'Russian' rather than North Korea, Iranian or Chinese?".  Seems a fairly reasonable response, given that they're not necessarily the bad guys any more.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on May 07, 2012, 01:52:59 AM
Funny that that article came out at the same time as this one:

CNN: Russian general raises idea of pre-emptive strike against missile shield (http://articles.cnn.com/2012-05-05/world/world_europe_russia-us-missile-defense_1_missile-shield-defense-shield-russian-missiles?_s=PM:EUROPE)

As far as why the US still makes Russia OPFOR?  Well, a couple of reasons.  First, as the above article shows, Russia isn't quite on our "best friends forever" list.  Second, Russia still equips and trains most of our potential enemies (such as China and Iran).  If we act like we're going up against MiG-29s and Su-27s, we're probably going to be more right than not.  Finally, It's better to be over prepared than under prepared.  If you setup your OPFOR as Iran, you make them old F-14s and F-4s.  We know how those work.  We trained against them for over 40 years.  It's hardly DACT.  We'd get blind-sided if we ran up against something tougher like PAK-FA or J-20 fighters instead.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on May 07, 2012, 02:50:01 AM
The article is quite interesting reading.  The Russians (quite rightly) ask the question "why US OPFOR equipment is still 'Russian' rather than North Korea, Iranian or Chinese?". 

Because most of the North Korean, Iranian and Chinese armor is either an export version of a Russian tank or derived from one. If you squint, that M113 looks like a ZBD-97 (which is based on a BMP-3) or ZLC2000 or even a YW701 with a turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 07, 2012, 07:04:14 AM
Whilst I realise that many other nations use Russian or derivative equipment (such a thought wouldn't be lost on the Russians replying to the article), I expect the question raised by the article is moreso why the OPFOR equipment is camouflaged, etc in a Russian way, rather than the other nations' designs which are different (the Chinese use of digital camo for instance).

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 07, 2012, 09:23:30 AM
I guess it's also a case of "letting sleeping dogs lie". US Aggressor and Adversary outfits have always painted their aircraft with red stars (save for a few notable exceptions). In some cases, their camo was or is close to Soviet/Russian aircraft, in others not. It's almost "tradition", nobody bats so much as an eyelid. Paint an Eagle in a scheme more or less resembling the recent Su-35 prototypes and it's pretty much business as usual. Announce tomorrow that the Aggressor and Adversary aircraft will be repainted to resemble Chinese aircraft and behold the sh!+storm that will ensue. The PRC will throw a hissy fit and the powers in charge in the US at all levels will have a lot of explaining to do to the media as to why they needlessly p!$$ off the Chinese. Far too much hassle for a very limited benefit in training realism (especially so with most of China's aircraft in rather boring greys anyway).

So, instead of unnecessarily opening a can of worms, schemes are kept as they were. Head honchos adjust training syllabi to reflect the most likely adversaries. Nobody complains. Everything's a-okay.

As for the VISMOD M-113s above, I don't recall either a Soviet or a Russian camo resembling anything close to this. Evenly spaced big stripes in green, black and brown. It doesn't get more "not looking at anyone in particular" than that.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Maverick on May 07, 2012, 09:41:35 AM
Agree totally there Moritz.  The 113 camo is definitely 'different'. 

When I was serving in the ADF, we had a fictional country as an enemy, but when the chips were down, those with a less politically correct bent would routinely call our aggressors Indonesian quite openly, especially when ther weren't any brass around.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on February 17, 2013, 11:00:35 AM
Interestingly, I just came across this picture on a Philippines forum:

(http://adroth.ph/AFP/pa/m113/fsv.jpg)

Their version of an FSV/MRV, independently produced to the Australian one.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on February 17, 2013, 11:02:24 AM
ROC M24 Chaffee Turret on an M113 hull. They found they were too top heavy to swim and so abandoned the idea.  The turret has obviously been upgraded with improved FCS.

(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/c111.0.403.403/p403x403/163394_334322070020944_358851511_n.jpg)

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7550/a2ry4.jpg)

And someone has even made a model of one:

(http://nd05.jxs.cz/663/666/5d1bf10744_85372307_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ysi_maniac on March 05, 2013, 11:58:16 AM
Love it!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 01, 2013, 08:50:57 AM
What about an AMX13 style oscillating turret mounted on a M113?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 01, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
What about an AMX13 style oscillating turret mounted on a M113?

Do you qualify as a mountain climber when you're a turret crew member?  It'd be very tall, Greg unless you used a cut down hull.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 01, 2013, 10:40:24 AM
Bah! Practicality be damned!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 01, 2013, 12:02:12 PM
Bah! Practicality be damned!

C-of-G would also be significantly higher...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 01, 2013, 12:11:02 PM
Bah! Practicality be damned!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on April 01, 2013, 12:13:35 PM
Does the turret basket (I'm assuming that the AMX-13 turret has one) have sufficient opening so that access from the rear ramp might be possible?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2013, 02:33:31 AM
Well there's a fact I didn't know - the M113's trim vane is made of wood. I'd always assumed it was steel or aluminium and maybe added a bit of extra armour protection to the front, but then I saw a closeup of one on a somewhat shabby Aussie FSV and you could see the woodgrain. Bit of research and yep, wood. Various degrees of tinware were added to it with foam for buoyancy etc, but the basic structure is the same.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 02, 2013, 10:15:33 AM
Well there's a fact I didn't know - the M113's trim vane is made of wood. I'd always assumed it was steel or aluminium and maybe added a bit of extra armour protection to the front, but then I saw a closeup of one on a somewhat shabby Aussie FSV and you could see the woodgrain. Bit of research and yep, wood. Various degrees of tinware were added to it with foam for buoyancy etc, but the basic structure is the same.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.  Wood is cheap and easily replaced. It's also significantly lighter than metal, which makes the driver's job of deploying it easier.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 02, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
I didn't know either.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 03, 2013, 04:09:48 AM
Most folks would never notice the material unless they are maintaining/operating the vehicle. :)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 03, 2013, 05:07:57 AM
It just strikes me as a bit fragile - it's all very well saying it's easy to replace, but if you need to swim and your trim vane's been trashed by shrapnel, you may not have time to set up a carpentry shop... Mind you, I supose it's easy to roughly patch up with any old bit of wood and a few self-tappers....

This, by the way, is the reason why the British Army removed the flotation screens that used to be a feature of most of it's AFVs. They were only tin and canvas and got damaged so often that they couldn't be relied upon to be functional on the rare occasions they were actually used.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 03, 2013, 06:33:52 AM
It just strikes me as a bit fragile - it's all very well saying it's easy to replace, but if you need to swim and your trim vane's been trashed by shrapnel, you may not have time to set up a carpentry shop... Mind you, I supose it's easy to roughly patch up with any old bit of wood and a few self-tappers....

The trim vane can have holes in it and still function. The roll of the vane is to stop waves swamping the front of the vehicle.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 03, 2013, 08:27:48 AM
It just strikes me as a bit fragile - it's all very well saying it's easy to replace, but if you need to swim and your trim vane's been trashed by shrapnel, you may not have time to set up a carpentry shop... Mind you, I supose it's easy to roughly patch up with any old bit of wood and a few self-tappers....

The function of the trim van is to prevent the bow wave breaking over the engine inlets and flooding the engine compartment, it doesn't actually add anything very much to the floatation of the vehicle.  It can still function as long as it's not actually broken or splintered.   If it's destroyed, then more than likely there is something wrong with the vehicle.  It does have BTW a thin sheet of mild steel on the facing surface, which protects it from most common knocks and bangs when it's folded.

Swimming in the M113 particularly when fully loaded was always quite marginal anyway.  There were usually only a few inches of freeboard and it was often easily swamped in any sort of waves.

Quote
This, by the way, is the reason why the British Army removed the flotation screens that used to be a feature of most of it's AFVs. They were only tin and canvas and got damaged so often that they couldn't be relied upon to be functional on the rare occasions they were actually used.

That's understandable, they do actually cause the vehicle to float, so if they are holed, then water will come in and the vehicle won't float, just like on the hull of a boat.   I'd assume that as a consequence greater resources were devoted to mobile bridging/ferries?   
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 03, 2013, 10:13:44 AM
Plywood actually and I must admit I didn't know until I started crewing them either.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2013, 05:06:26 AM
Okay, a couple of questions, folks:

Before they moved it out to either side of the ramp, the M113's fuel tank was in the back of the left hand sponson, on the "shelf" over the tracks as you'd see it from the inside. So:

1) What's in the equivalent position on the right hand side?

2) If there's nothing immovable there, then is there any reason why you couldn't extend the vehicle's range by putting another fuel tank there? I know there would have to be a filler cap above it as on the other side.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 05, 2013, 05:46:40 AM
that side would be where a lot of the section / squad gear would go. Rucks, meals, tent, stove, ammo, snowshoes, water cans, radio trays (on some). In theory, it could have dual internal tanks, but there would not be much room left.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 05, 2013, 08:00:06 AM
Okay, a couple of questions, folks:

Before they moved it out to either side of the ramp, the M113's fuel tank was in the back of the left hand sponson, on the "shelf" over the tracks as you'd see it from the inside. So:

1) What's in the equivalent position on the right hand side?

2) If there's nothing immovable there, then is there any reason why you couldn't extend the vehicle's range by putting another fuel tank there? I know there would have to be a filler cap above it as on the other side.
Easy one, batteries.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 05, 2013, 10:45:13 AM
true enough, but, the battery box occupies about 20% of the space as compared to the fuel tank.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: deathjester on April 05, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
I thought you guys (and gals) would like to see this...

I've been looking up 105mm turrets...

Look what I've done!

(http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz85/Randleclan/2013-04-03-1386_zpsbe18e299.jpg)

(http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz85/Randleclan/2013-04-03-1374_zpsd15f6965.jpg)

All you need is;

M113 ACAV
105mm Gun set (short barrel & baseplate)
Turret from Vickers Light tank
Reverse flow cooling intakes from Saracen APC
Afterburner connecting ring from 1/72 Hasegawa F-14
...
Simples!!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2013, 07:47:48 PM
that side would be where a lot of the section / squad gear would go. Rucks, meals, tent, stove, ammo, snowshoes, water cans, radio trays (on some). In theory, it could have dual internal tanks, but there would not be much room left.

I'm thinking of this in the context of a Rarden-turreted recce vehicle, so it wouldn't be carrying a squad.

I found some pics showing the battery box after I'd posted. What lives immediately forward of it? I can see some white boxes sitting on the "shelf" but I'm not clear what they are.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: jetboy on April 05, 2013, 09:45:40 PM
HI,I,LL throw my thrupence in,N.A.S.A,s version is quite nice as the astronaut emergency removal vehicle,i think they have a fire,suppressing one as well,
Though,for looks,you cant beat the tracked chapperal system,gerry anderson to say the least?
cheers Don
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 05, 2013, 10:31:36 PM
This might help:

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/bucket.png)

Space not marked in this diagram is for storage.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2013, 03:13:24 AM
I thought you guys (and gals) would like to see this...

I've been looking up 105mm turrets...

Look what I've done!

([url]http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz85/Randleclan/2013-04-03-1386_zpsbe18e299.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz85/Randleclan/2013-04-03-1374_zpsd15f6965.jpg[/url])

All you need is;

M113 ACAV
105mm Gun set (short barrel & baseplate)
Turret from Vickers Light tank
Reverse flow cooling intakes from Saracen APC
Afterburner connecting ring from 1/72 Hasegawa F-14
...
Simples!!


What happens when they fire the gun?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: deathjester on April 06, 2013, 04:08:31 AM
Things go boom, screaming, crying...the usual !

Are you intimating a design flaw here??  >:(
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2013, 04:09:55 AM
Who me... ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: deathjester on April 06, 2013, 04:19:44 AM
Mmm, what WAS I thinking...  :icon_music:

It actually is quite similar to the GIAT 105 turret - I've added a turret bin, too.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 06, 2013, 10:13:00 PM
true enough, but, the battery box occupies about 20% of the space as compared to the fuel tank.
From memory we also stowed 20l water jerries on top of  the battery box
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2013, 11:36:49 PM
The way I see it, an M113 recce with a Scimitar turret, extra fuel tank and maybe five crew at the most is still going to have more internal space than the real Scimitar.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 07, 2013, 10:10:29 AM
From memory the inside of the MRV with Scorpion turret had big struts coming down on each corner of the turret ring to the floor and the turret basket inside it. There was a bit of space around the turret ring, certainly a lot more than the inside of a LAV-25. There is most likely a picture on the internet. Shall now go to Google and try and find you one.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 07, 2013, 10:17:47 AM
There is one close framed interior photo in this walk around series.

http://s301.photobucket.com/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV#/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV?page=1&_suid=136530085764009014404489412152 (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV#/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV?page=1&_suid=136530085764009014404489412152)

The 'struts' from my memory are part of the turret basket that line up with the floor attachment points (the bottom of the basket has a bit of clearance from the floor) with the turret forward. You can kind of make out the rather large clearance around the turret basket (by AFV standards).
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 07, 2013, 11:17:10 PM
Cheers for that!  :)

Another question folks:

The US Army has always favored powered ramps at the back of an APC/MICV, whereas the British Army has always favoured side-hinged doors. What do we think of this? What are the issues and who's right/wrong?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: deathjester on April 07, 2013, 11:45:51 PM
Less to go wrong in the field?  Or is it that the side opening doors are more heavily armoured than the ramps?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on April 08, 2013, 06:52:57 AM
vehicles on the battlefield are a prize target - it's better for a soldier to get out & off to cover as fast as poss.  The US prefers ramps as it lets the grunt loaded with backpack etc get out easier without catching anything on the vehicle.  Brit troops generally were not so heavily loaded up (different for the guys at Falklands tho).

Ramps can let a lot of lead in if caught open, whereas doors are better for urban use where you can expect fire from the rear (ie Nthrn Ireland) - a smaller hole lets less lead inside.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 08, 2013, 08:58:03 AM
I don't think the British vehicles (FV432 and Warrior) have significantly smaller doorways that M113s and Bradleys, it's just that the back is vertical wit ha single swing door, rather than sloping with a ramp.

There are a couple of disadvantages to the ramp:

1. It doesn't work if the vehicle power is off. Yes, they have emergency swing doors set in the ramp, but they're much smaller.

2. It can have problems if the ground behind the vehicle isn't flat: what if the end of the ramp comes down on a big rock, or a piece of urban street furniture?


On the other hand, there are a couple of disadvantages to the swing door:

1. If the hinge is on the left, then the door is hard to open when the vehicle's on a cross-slope with the left side higher, because you have to lift the weight of the door against gravity. Vice versa if the hinge is on the right.

2. Likewise, if the vehicle is on a right-side-higher cross slope, then a left-hinged door is hard to close, because you've got to lift it against gravity, and vice-versa.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 08, 2013, 09:30:02 AM
Cheers for that!  :)

Another question folks:

The US Army has always favored powered ramps at the back of an APC/MICV, whereas the British Army has always favoured side-hinged doors. What do we think of this? What are the issues and who's right/wrong?

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.  Powered ramps allow faster egress/ingress but don't provide side protection, whereas doors do.  If you lose power, you can lower the ramp but you can't raise it again.  With doors, if you lose power, you can usually still open and shut them although, the increased levels of armour on them it's becoming more difficult to do it easily.  Sometimes, the terrain doesn't favour the lowering of a ramp, so egress/ingress becomes more difficult, whereas doors, if split can still be opened.   Neither side is right or wrong, they are merely differemt solutions to the same problem and both is like everything a compromise.   Whichever way, I was under the impression you wanted minimal change to the M113 in British service?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 08, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
I don't think the British vehicles (FV432 and Warrior) have significantly smaller doorways that M113s and Bradleys, it's just that the back is vertical wit ha single swing door, rather than sloping with a ramp.

There are a couple of disadvantages to the ramp:

1. It doesn't work if the vehicle power is off. Yes, they have emergency swing doors set in the ramp, but they're much smaller.

The smaller door is more for convenience than anything else and is usually used by the crew, not the passengers.  It was intended as an emergency door.  I'm not sure where you get the idea you can't lower the ramp if there is no power.  In an emergency, the driver has a cable cutter which he can activated to permamently lower the ramp and the passengers have a prybar which they can use to break the cable at the door end.  They can also operate the latches directly.  Once the latches are released and the winch or cable released, the ramp will just fall.

Quote
2. It can have problems if the ground behind the vehicle isn't flat: what if the end of the ramp comes down on a big rock, or a piece of urban street furniture?

That can be a problem but a good commander and driver won't allow that to happen if at all possible.  A door has similar problems.  What happens if the vehicle parks downslope or sideslope with a door?

Quote
On the other hand, there are a couple of disadvantages to the swing door:

1. If the hinge is on the left, then the door is hard to open when the vehicle's on a cross-slope with the left side higher, because you have to lift the weight of the door against gravity. Vice versa if the hinge is on the right.

2. Likewise, if the vehicle is on a right-side-higher cross slope, then a left-hinged door is hard to close, because you've got to lift it against gravity, and vice-versa.

Exactly.  Which is why they had to adopt a power system to open the door in the Warrior.  It was simply too heavy for the squaddies to push when it was down or across a slope.  There is a another difference.  The FV432 and Warrior have sills which the squaddies have to step up to, whereas the ramp has none.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 08, 2013, 10:59:43 AM
Ramps also have the advantage of being easier to get things in and out of the bucket. On the M59 APC (the APC before the M113) the ramp and bay was wide enough to fit a jeep in. On the M113 the ramp enabled a L5 pack howitzer to be wheeled in and out. Also it makes it easier to egress while moving. The ramp is just dragged along behind the APC and the grunts step off onto the ground whereas doing similar via a door and you have to leap into the air well above the ground 'riding the tracks hobo' style. But the best thing about a ramp is the last guy out doesn't have to close it. The driver can hit a button to close up the ramp while the grunts can focus on fighting not sorting out the carrier.

Which also works in reverse when the vehicle is hit and might be full of smoke and flame so the injured, disorientated grunts in the back don't have to try and unlock a latch to open the door someone can just hit the button to drop the ramp and everyone can pile out. There was a case of a M2 in ODS which was hit by friendly fire and the injured dismounts in the back couldn’t get find their way out and were going to crispy up until the driver re-entered the vehicle and hit his button to drop the ramp enabling them to escape. The driver suffered serious burns but saved the lives of the dismounts. Which leads to the issue of a horizontal hinged door (ie a ramp) being less prone to being jammed than a vertical hinged door as gravity works evenly on all the hinges.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 08, 2013, 07:07:59 PM
  Whichever way, I was under the impression you wanted minimal change to the M113 in British service?

Oh, I'm not changing it on mine: I've just been looking at a LOT of pics of the back end of an FV438 and an M113 and wondering about the differences in approach.  :D

At one point I was looking at having the ramp locked on the Swingfire M113 and the crew just using the smaller swing door, but the design I came up with eventually didn't need that.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 11, 2013, 07:43:42 PM
Another turreted M113, the Danish PNMK, with a 2-man Italian turret mounting a 25mm:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/Reppluton/m113-a2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 11, 2013, 07:47:32 PM
Swiss M113 with the same 20mm cannon turret as the Pbv.302:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/rister/m113b.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 11, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
Norwegian NM135 with a different 20mm turret. Apparently, these were originally intended as light AAA vehicles and were only later used as troop carriers:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Efini/Diverse/NM135.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 11, 2013, 08:02:19 PM
Swiss M113 with the same 20mm cannon turret as the Pbv.302:

That's a good what if turret because it uses a second hand 20mm Hispano fighter cannon. Which was made surplus by the thousand in the 40s, 50s and 60s as all the WWII and post WWII fighters (and some bombers) equipped with them were scrapped. The Swedish Pbvs sourced their cannon from scrapped Tunnan fighters.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2013, 02:08:50 AM
Hmmm...what if they had done the same with other cannon and thus given some M113s 30mm cannon?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 12, 2013, 06:18:37 AM
A variant of the  ACV-S (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2701.html) has a Bradly turret on it and can even be equipped with a BMP-3 turret.  Add an extra road wheel, different turret and armor and you have a new vehicle. The M113 - a real world Whiff!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 12, 2013, 07:38:50 AM
I didn't want to post this picture before from Hunnicutt's Bradley in case it pre-empted Weaver's work. Nothing is new under the sun?

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M113fox.png) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/AGRA105/media/M113fox.png.html)

But not to worry M113 Scimitar turret fans because this is actually a turret from the Fox scout car! So therefore an entirely different concept. No context as to what the proposal was for but possibly a sales attempt from the makers of the Rarden 30mm gun?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 12, 2013, 07:51:22 AM
Hmmm...what if they had done the same with other cannon and thus given some M113s 30mm cannon?

My Hispano turret whiff idea leads to a 30mm replacement. This alternate ‘Australia’ has a fleet of M59 APCs (predecessor to the M113) which they use in Vietnam with a diesel engine, hydrostatic transmission upgrade (courtesy of the license production LVTP6 for their Marine Corps). The late model M59 comes with a M13 cupola with 12.7mm M2HB as standard along with one inch of steel belly armour making it in many ways far better than the M113 (especially with hydrostatic transmission replacing the difficult to drive differential steering) in Vietnam. Anyways as is the way the small cupola and ‘un lethal’ 12.7mm was replaced with a larger one man turret fitted with an air force surplus 20mm Hispano and 7.62mm MG. The Hispano was also to arm a new domestic design wheeled IFV under development in the early 1970s but the Army wanted improved anti-armour firepower. So having to replace a weapon within the footprint of the Hispano they went for a ground to ground gun firing the 30x113mm ADEN ammunition. With the highly effective 30mm M789 HEDP of Apache fame this is a highly lethal anti light armour and anti-personnel weapon. This new gun was analogous to the Hughes 30mm ASP but entering service in the late 70s and could replace Hispanos and even 12.7mm M2s (and 12.7mm M85s on their Marine Corps M66 tanks).
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 12, 2013, 10:19:56 AM
I didn't want to post this picture before from Hunnicutt's Bradley in case it pre-empted Weaver's work. Nothing is new under the sun?


No worries - I'd have been amazed if it hadn't been proposed for real, given the Scorpion-turreted MRV and the Fox/FV432.

Always thought this turret looked like a good idea. Yes I know this isn't an M113, but it could easily go on one and would be an ideal, minimum space increase replacement for an M2HB cupola:

(http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/ruud_staneke/m113cv/images/m113cv_1_of_2.jpg)

The Netherlands put a different turret with the same gun (25mm Oerlikon KBA) on their YPR-765 (AIFV)s:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3608933952_47272a970b.jpg)

Lastly, here's an AIFV (Turkish?) with a different turret, the French Dragar:

(http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/pix/tr_aifv_ypr_765_dragar_turm-001.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 12, 2013, 10:32:35 AM
Here's a photostream of an XM734 that apparently went to Israel then ended up with Orange County SWAT! The XM734 was the first attempt to put firing ports and centre-seats in an M113 and was the start of the process that led to the AIFV:

Orange County Sheriff's Office (http://www.flickr.com/photos/francesc_2000/4740950990/#)

 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 12, 2013, 10:37:42 AM
M113 with 20mm:

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M11320mm.png) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/AGRA105/media/M11320mm.png.html)

M113 with 25mm:

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M11325mm.png) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/AGRA105/media/M11325mm.png.html)

Also the turrets for the Bradley (minus TOW launcher) and LAV-25 were all fitted to M113s for trials.

I guess we should be asking which turrets HAVEN'T been fitted to an M113?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 12, 2013, 05:08:42 PM
I am sure I've seen this turret on an M113 in the dim, distant past.  I can't see why you couldn't use it as IIRC it fitted the standard cupola ring.

(http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/ruud_staneke/m113cv/images/m113cv_1_of_2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 12, 2013, 08:27:36 PM
I am sure I've seen this turret on an M113 in the dim, distant past.  I can't see why you couldn't use it as IIRC it fitted the standard cupola ring.


Something like this?

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8405/8642968340_a14d4fa646_c.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 12, 2013, 08:29:24 PM
Cdn M113A3 with LAV-25 turret during AIFV trial.

 (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8387/8642968382_3e92cdca9a_c.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on April 13, 2013, 05:03:46 AM
Cdn M113A3 with LAV-25 turret during AIFV trial.

Thanks for that Gingie!

Rickshaw: Perhaps you thinking of the RWS M113s of the Ejército de Chile? The ECh also has YPR-765 AIFVs and tested Piraña 6x6s with the same turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 13, 2013, 05:36:29 AM
Egyptian stretched M113 with a Bradley turret:

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3495/egyptianinfantryfightin.png)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 13, 2013, 05:40:56 AM
M113 with the Israeli/Italian 60mm HV gun:

(http://i26.tinypic.com/1j3hp0.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 13, 2013, 05:54:16 AM
I always liked this Spanish TC-3 turret, used on their BMR 600 6x6 APCs. It's operated and loaded from under armour, the gunner's fully head down, it provides simple optical sighting and vision and direct mechanical controls. It seems to have all the best bits of an RWS and a manned turret.

As far as I can see, the Spanish never mounted the TC-3 on their M113s, but it would go a treat.

(http://www.army-guide.com/images/tc-3_qwoei1.jpg)

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3039.html (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3039.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 13, 2013, 07:27:30 AM
An M113 with an M1117 ASV turret would be interesting. Maybe not the same firepower as a 25mm or 30mm chain gun, but the 40mm grenade launcher can do a fair amount of damage, while the M2HB can remind baddies that it's to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 13, 2013, 02:12:36 PM
Gingie/apophenia:  I'm pretty sure it was a standard European M113 - perhaps Dutch/Swiss?

Still looking for any 3 view drawing of the M113AS4:

(http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/LAND_M113AS4_Australia_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 13, 2013, 07:40:35 PM
Interesting mod here, but if the original M113 gunner was a bit exposed.... :o

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/moyen_orient/Liban/vehicules_legers/M113_zu-23-4/Lebanon_M113_ZU-23-4_30112006_news_002.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: AGRA on April 13, 2013, 07:52:35 PM
Interesting mod here, but if the original M113 gunner was a bit exposed.... :o

I saw one of these Lebanese M113s with an AA gun on the roof in which they had welded together some steel plate to provide a gun shield. But it was 2-3mm thick mild steel which would have the same bullet proof effectiveness as cardboard. Wouldn’t even stop a 9mm bullet.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 13, 2013, 10:06:20 PM
This is interesting: Canadian M113 with SS11 launchers:

(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr159/elgorah_r/Cdn%20Anti-Tank%20Missiles/SS-114.jpg)

Apparently, these went into service in small numbers. More pics, and an interesting discussion here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1327617906/Berlin+Wall+Crisis+Canadian+Centurion (http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1327617906/Berlin+Wall+Crisis+Canadian+Centurion)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 14, 2013, 02:09:22 AM

Still looking for any 3 view drawing of the M113AS4:


The AS4 is being worked on by a styrene model making company. No further info at this time.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 14, 2013, 09:13:42 AM

Still looking for any 3 view drawing of the M113AS4:


The AS4 is being worked on by a styrene model making company. No further info at this time.

Interesting.  Any idea which one?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 15, 2013, 04:28:36 AM
yep! ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 23, 2013, 03:34:02 AM
As something subtle, what about a standard M113 with the 25mm cannon turret from the YPR-765?

(http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/7596/florennes2022020070.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Mark Aldrich on May 02, 2013, 06:21:33 AM
Add this baby to your M113.....Soviet 122mm D-30 Gun.
http://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/maut-693.jpg (http://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/maut-693.jpg)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 02, 2013, 10:14:53 AM
M113 105mm assault gun proposal from 1977 by Krauss Maffei and Rheinmetall a sort of "StuG-113" if you like....

Length with tube: 6.04m
Width: 2.91m
Height, hull: 1.76m
Height, commander's cupola: 1.92m
Crew: Commander, Loader and Driver/Gunner
Ammunition: 42 rounds
Loaded weight: approx 14,000kg

(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/rafaelgonzalez65/M-113%20Howitzer/m113assaulthowitzerfscv_003.jpg)

(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/rafaelgonzalez65/M-113%20Howitzer/m113assaulthowitzerfscv_005.jpg)

From here: http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=40544 (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=40544)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 02, 2013, 10:47:44 AM
From the same site:

M113 with Cockerill 90mm gun:

(http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/kilomuse/Tanks/M11390mm.jpg)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on May 02, 2013, 11:11:28 AM
Modelling the Danish M/92 PNMK (with Oto-Melara T25 turret) mentioned by Weaver in Reply #73
http://m113.blog.cz/en/1303/m92-pnmk (http://m113.blog.cz/en/1303/m92-pnmk)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 02, 2013, 11:57:38 AM
Modelling the Danish M/92 PNMK (with Oto-Melara T25 turret) mentioned by Weaver in Reply #73
[url]http://m113.blog.cz/en/1303/m92-pnmk[/url] ([url]http://m113.blog.cz/en/1303/m92-pnmk[/url])


"When I grow up, I want to be a Bradley!"  ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on May 02, 2013, 01:05:34 PM
"When I grow up, I want to be a Bradley!"  ;D

Bonus point if it could be done with an one-man turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on May 02, 2013, 01:27:28 PM
From the same site:

M113 with Cockerill 90mm gun:

([url]http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/kilomuse/Tanks/M11390mm.jpg[/url])


So pretty...

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on May 02, 2013, 09:42:45 PM
The M113 with Cockerill 90mm gun has an M3 Lee vibe going for it. Just add another big gun in a sponson.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 03, 2013, 02:07:14 AM
^ Or a heavy machine-gun in a sponson on the side. And - hey, presto - you have a real-life equivalent for a Predator Destructor from Warhammer 40k.  ;D

(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/a/a1/Pred_destructor_fw.jpeg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 03, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
Damn! - I was trying to do that at lunchtime today but I couldn't find the right Warhammer vehicle!  ;D :)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on May 07, 2013, 12:56:03 PM
I didn't want to post this picture before from Hunnicutt's Bradley in case it pre-empted Weaver's work. Nothing is new under the sun?

([url]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M113fox.png[/url]) ([url]http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/AGRA105/media/M113fox.png.html[/url])

But not to worry M113 Scimitar turret fans because this is actually a turret from the Fox scout car! So therefore an entirely different concept. No context as to what the proposal was for but possibly a sales attempt from the makers of the Rarden 30mm gun?


Nice bullet trap between the hull and actual turret  :-\

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on May 07, 2013, 01:04:34 PM
Cheers for that!  :)

Another question folks:

The US Army has always favored powered ramps at the back of an APC/MICV, whereas the British Army has always favoured side-hinged doors. What do we think of this? What are the issues and who's right/wrong?

Personal experiance....... its much easer and quicker to get the whole section out the back with the ramp arrangement of the M113!
Plus the ramp itself makes for a great platform for the troops and crew in the wet season, when statinary! Thry that with hinged door arrangement!! I've operated from both M113 and ASLAV's! I know which one I will choose!!
To give you a better idea, take a look at footage of troops trying to get in and out of a BMP-1/2/3 and that of the M113


M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on May 07, 2013, 01:14:41 PM
From the same site:

M113 with Cockerill 90mm gun:

([url]http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/kilomuse/Tanks/M11390mm.jpg[/url])

With the range of modern ammo, this arrangement would have been a great replacement for the Australian Army's M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) / M1113A1 Medium Reconnaissance Vehicle (MRV). Unfortunatly our only fire support is the 25mm cannon of a handfull of ASLAV-25's! These do not offer effective HE or anti-armour/ anti-bunker capability. But that's why I have probably favoured the incorporation of the likes of the South African Ratel 90 turret (with it's 90mm gun) arrangement incorporated onto the ASLAV or what about on a Bushmaster!!!
M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: scorchio on May 11, 2013, 09:02:09 PM
Having a look at Weaver's musings on What If the British Army bought the M113? (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=2867.0) as an alternative to the FV430 series, I'm curious if any M113 variant was ever produced with a low-profile hull along the lines of the FV433 Abbott SPH and 'Falcon' SPAAG variants of the FV430.

The only thing that immediately springs to mind are the sort of flatbed type conversions on the M548, Tracked Rapier etc. but they still have that high cab at the front that doesn't really lend itself to a traditional tracked SPH silhouette.

I suppose the silhouette of the Lynx reconnaissance vehicle (M113 C&R) isn't far off, bit it still seems fairly tall at the back (compared to the FV433 hull), and obviously would need expanding back to original M113 length (and width?) or even extending, to fit something like an Abbott turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 11, 2013, 09:49:35 PM
There were various experimental vehicles, mounting either missile control shelters (Pershing system) or SPAAG (Vigilante 37mm Gattling system) which were never adopted, which had low profile hulls (so low in fact that the driver had a "conning tower" arrangement with a cupola on top to provide room for him).   I've often wondered what might have been possible if a supine driver's position had been adopted.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 12, 2013, 02:55:59 AM

With the range of modern ammo, this arrangement would have been a great replacement for the Australian Army's M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) / M1113A1 Medium Reconnaissance Vehicle (MRV). Unfortunatly our only fire support is the 25mm cannon of a handfull of ASLAV-25's! These do not offer effective HE or anti-armour/ anti-bunker capability. But that's why I have probably favoured the incorporation of the likes of the South African Ratel 90 turret (with it's 90mm gun) arrangement incorporated onto the ASLAV or what about on a Bushmaster!!!
M.A.D

Since ASLAVs are basically MOWAG Piranha 8x8s, a 90mm Cockerill turret should go straight on.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 12, 2013, 03:46:08 AM
I wonder...reverse the drive (i.e. have it drive in reverse when going forward) so that the driver etc are at the rear, replace troop compartment with low profile, armoured gun - either fixed or in turret.  Result: a tank destroyer with crew right at back and thus somewhat more protected.  Maybe somewhat akin to the ASU-57 or ASU-85 (see below)?

(http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/at/ASU-85/ASU-85_2v.gif)
(http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/at/ASU-85/ASU-85_2.gif)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 12, 2013, 03:48:13 AM
Speaking of the ASU-57, what about a M113 of more conventional arrangement (as opposed to what I proposed above) but with a main gun and open topped gun compartment like the ASU-57:

(http://modelingmadness.com/review/misc/vehicles/stewartasub.jpg)(http://modelingmadness.com/review/misc/vehicles/stewartasug.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on May 12, 2013, 07:37:04 AM
Speaking of the ASU-57, what about a M113 of more conventional arrangement (as opposed to what I proposed above) but with a main gun and open topped gun compartment like the ASU-57:

I thought it was already posted here ..... it's somewhere on here ....... Libya mounted Russian D-30 howitzers in several M-113s just like that.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 12, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
The ASU-57 is tiny.  Basically not much taller than a normally seated man.   The ASU-85 is considerably taller, about the height of a tall standing man.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on May 12, 2013, 08:39:56 AM
The M-113 has a transfer case to turn the drive 180 degrees to the transmission and the differential.  It would / should not be that difficult to ditch the transfer case and run the drive through a shaft from a mid or even rear engine set up, reprofile the nose and recline the driver.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 12, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
The ASU-57 is tiny.  Basically not much taller than a normally seated man.   The ASU-85 is considerably taller, about the height of a tall standing man.

And...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 12, 2013, 10:42:38 AM
Well the "StuG-113" I posted back in #102 has a distinctly lower profile than a standard M113, but still keeps the front engine.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on May 12, 2013, 11:53:05 AM
here's that Libyan M-113 SPG ...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: scorchio on May 12, 2013, 09:40:07 PM
There were various experimental vehicles, mounting either missile control shelters (Pershing system) or SPAAG (Vigilante 37mm Gattling system) which were never adopted, which had low profile hulls (so low in fact that the driver had a "conning tower" arrangement with a cupola on top to provide room for him).   I've often wondered what might have been possible if a supine driver's position had been adopted.

Tah! The M474 TEL and T249 do fit the bill quite well, perhaps they're even too low profile compared to the 433 silhouette. It looks like one could raise the hull-line to the top of those strange cupolas without the need for a supine driver's seat, and still come in lower than the standard M113's height.

However, I figure depending on the dimensions of the turret-ring for an Abbott-type vehicle one could move the driver hatch back a bit and adopt a more supine position to eliminate the strange cab and cupola features of this vehicles quite easily. When in doubt though, there's always the option to stretch the hull and add another roadwheel like the M113AS4 and M113G3DK(ext), if the turret-ring would get in the way.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 13, 2013, 02:31:40 AM
here's that Libyan M-113 SPG ...

I was thinking of something purpose built rather then a lash up.

Interesting arrangement - I presume it was one the Libyan "Rabbles" made in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 13, 2013, 04:37:48 PM
I've been wondering, when did Libya get M113s?  They weren't exactly one of the US's favourites after Qaddafi came to power...

As to the design, I'd be worried about hull rigidity with the top of the hull above the rear cut away and such a heavy gun mounting which looks essentially on the roof of the hull...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on May 14, 2013, 05:35:53 AM
According to the SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, Libya received its first 15 M113s from the US in 1966. Other sources note further M113 deliveries around 1980. The latter are usually listed as being ex-Italian (although I've never seen a source for that claim). If Italy was the source, presumably that would be true for the Libyan M577s too.

In 2009, Libya had partly worked out a deal with the US for up to 50 more refurbished M113s in 2009. The US Congress blocked that $77M deal which involved Turkish FNSS Defense Systems (a BAE/NUROL joint venture). Makes you wonder if the source for some of Qaddafi's M113s wasn't Turkey all along?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: elmayerle on May 14, 2013, 10:26:54 AM
According to the SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, Libya received its first 15 M113s from the US in 1966. Other sources note further M113 deliveries around 1980. The latter are usually listed as being ex-Italian (although I've never seen a source for that claim). If Italy was the source, presumably that would be true for the Libyan M577s too.

In 2009, Libya had partly worked out a deal with the US for up to 50 more refurbished M113s in 2009. The US Congress blocked that $77M deal which involved Turkish FNSS Defense Systems (a BAE/NUROL joint venture). Makes you wonder if the source for some of Qaddafi's M113s wasn't Turkey all along?
well, the original 1966 transfer would've been pre-Qaddafi since he didn't come to power until later in the 1960's.  If memory serves me correctly, he threw the US out and took control of Wheelus AFB in 1969.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on May 14, 2013, 10:33:02 AM
Yes, exactly. Obviously the US position had softened slightly by 2009. But relations weren't particularly chummy in the 1980s! So how did the Italians get around US Foreign Military Sales regulations to sell-on those ex-Esercito M113s?  :-\
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 14, 2013, 07:06:55 PM
Italy was licence-producing the M113. Don't know how that affects the end-user regs though.....

Could they have been officially delivered to Egypt or Tunisia and then slithered across the border?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 15, 2013, 08:31:03 AM
Esoteric Armour (LINK (http://esotericarmour.blogspot.de/2011/05/libya-m113.html)) thinks they were sold directly by the US before the sanctions. They think this because the Libyan M113s are apparently very early models and because SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) lists a sale for 1966.

I've been wondering, when did Libya get M113s?  They weren't exactly one of the US's favourites after Qaddafi came to power... <...>


Oh, but that was soooo last millennium. After he renounced terrorism (1999) and stopped developing WMDs (2004), he didn't exactly become a full-blown member of the Good Lads Club, but was sorta let in through the back-door. More or less quietly. Sanctions were lifted, oil and gas were sold to Europe, arms were sold to Libya ("worth several hundred million EUR per year", according to an Austrian newspaper), there were even talks of building a nuclear power plant  in Libya (in exchange for development/exploitation of uranium ore mines). Then Qaddafi became an ally in the War on Terror. Convenient for Qaddafi, who had problems of his own with Islamic groups, convenient for everyone else because, well, not many questions were asked. And Qaddafi was handy in keeping Africans from getting across the Mediterranean into Europe. By the end of the 2000s, it was almost as if nothing every happened between Qaddafi and the West.
Actually, looking at it now, it's kinda surprising to see how fast everyone dropped him again in 2011. Suddenly they were shocked to hear about his human rights record?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 15, 2013, 09:07:45 AM
The Cynicism in international relations can often be quite shocking.  I was aware that Qaddafi had been allowed into the "good boys club" but wasn't aware that it might have gone so far as to supplying him with armoured vehicles.  Particularly when considers the hundreds if not thousands (apparently) of Russian supplied vehicles which were sitting in the desert doing nothing...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 03, 2013, 04:16:40 AM
Random Idea:  Wheeled M113?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on August 03, 2013, 06:04:29 AM
Random Idea:  Wheeled M113?

For a simple conversion, give it skid steering like an AMX-10RC. Then you don't need cutouts in the hull for the wheels to turn.

How about one converted to a sci-fi B-movie prop? Clear bubbles over the driver and commander's hatches, the obligatory rotating radar dish on a panel that fits in the original roof hatch and a pair of wobbly "waldo" arms like the ones on the James Bond moon buggy from Diamonds are Forever? Nice silver paint job...... ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on August 03, 2013, 08:21:28 AM
How about one converted to a sci-fi B-movie prop? Clear bubbles over the driver and commander's hatches, the obligatory rotating radar dish on a panel that fits in the original roof hatch and a pair of wobbly "waldo" arms like the ones on the James Bond moon buggy from Diamonds are Forever? Nice silver paint job...... ;)

Done by NASA ....... various M-113's painted yellow, red, white or silver for Apollo crash/rescue units & field security ....

One US Army Heli base in Vietnam used an M-113 as a fire/crash vehicle.
Danish army also uses a few M-113s to fight grass fires on the firing range.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 03, 2013, 08:52:28 AM
NASA M113 Emergency Evacuation Vehicle/Fire Rescue Vehicle (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=989976)

YouTube Video search results for NASA M113 APC Fire Rescue Vehicles (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=NASA M113 APC)

***replaced dead video link with link to search results at YouTube
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on August 03, 2013, 12:12:32 PM
That was pretty cool with red-green 3D glasses.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 04:29:55 AM
M113 with SS.11:

(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr159/elgorah_r/Cdn%20Anti-Tank%20Missiles/SS-116.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 04:37:22 AM
Armored car???

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JeeAIsrMUDc/S5vb0r1ZM1I/AAAAAAAAASo/CT-UR6CtYv8/s1600/DSCF0923.JPG)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 04:39:51 AM
There's a M113 under there somewhere...

(http://www.downloadmunkey.net/images3/opfor-01.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2013, 04:42:29 AM
Singaporean M113 with Igla SAM:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0GQUt16TOQE/TF-Yw5LoMpI/AAAAAAAAAog/jkRrFyhbwSs/s1600/34665_452133358528_89175368528_6048750_3689207_n.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0GQUt16TOQE/TF-ZMStnWpI/AAAAAAAAApI/3pYrQ3bqmks/s1600/37815_452133858528_89175368528_6048779_491479_n.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on August 10, 2013, 03:06:14 PM
There's a M113 under there somewhere...

([url]http://www.downloadmunkey.net/images3/opfor-01.jpg[/url])


BMP-3 vismod?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 02:51:50 AM
Yep
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 23, 2013, 04:30:40 AM
Some more M113 variants:

(http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1373/64/1373648060694.jpg)
(http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1373/64/1373648399142.jpg)
(http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1373/64/1373648512930.jpg)
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Italie/vehicule_artillerie/M113_Sidam_25/M%20113%20sidam_014.jpg)
(http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1373/64/1373648935893.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 25, 2014, 03:43:58 AM
Wicked!  Hellfire equipped M113:

(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/SpudmanWP/LCS/dsc_8155_zpsf5b9d677.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on January 25, 2014, 08:00:26 AM
Experimental/Trials vehicle, I take it?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on January 25, 2014, 09:08:40 AM
Yep, the prototype. The M113 Hellfire concept was eclipsed by LM's MGM-166 LOSAT mounted on either a Bradley or M8 AGS hull.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on March 03, 2014, 10:30:04 AM
Okay, found this (1/100th) resin hull in a box of bits at the Crewe Show, and for 25p, it was worth getting just to find out: WHAT THE HELL IS IT? (Never seen that top configuration before....)

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/MysteryM113.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/hws5mp/media/The%20Whiffery/MysteryM113.jpg.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on March 03, 2014, 02:54:36 PM
Harold,

Interesting find you have there.  That little model is supposed to represent an M113 BeobPzArt (Beobachtungspanzer Artillerie) - Artillery forward observer vehicle with raised roofline and PERI D-11 periscope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variants_of_the_M113_armored_personnel_carrier)

It is missing the periscope that would occupy the small circular spot just to the right of the rear cupola and behind and to the right of the ventilation cover. 

I have a 1:35th scale model of that same vehicle that was built by a friend of mine from an old Peddinghaus conversion kit.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on March 04, 2014, 04:55:09 AM
Beobachtungspanzer Artillerie M113 G A2
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_mtw_m113_g1_a2_beobpz-a.htm (http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_mtw_m113_g1_a2_beobpz-a.htm)

Built (by Thomas Bautze)
http://s950.photobucket.com/user/nypd1009/library/1_87%20Military%20Models/Bundeswehr/M113%20A2%20GE%20BeobPzArt?sort=3&page=1 (http://s950.photobucket.com/user/nypd1009/library/1_87%20Military%20Models/Bundeswehr/M113%20A2%20GE%20BeobPzArt?sort=3&page=1)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on March 04, 2014, 05:02:12 AM
Nice one Jeff and Apo!

Now all I have to do is work out what to do with it now..... ???
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on March 04, 2014, 10:50:52 AM
Carefullly slice the hatch off, drill a hole in it's place and build an optronics mast and use it as it's intended to be used - an artillery observation vehicle!  Simples!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on March 04, 2014, 11:12:51 AM
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on March 04, 2014, 02:16:29 PM
3D scanner / printer? 8)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on March 04, 2014, 05:23:14 PM
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.

Designed to go on a Roco Minitanks hull perhaps?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 04, 2014, 06:48:11 PM
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.

Make it a UGV
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2014, 02:28:12 AM
Lawdy look what I just found:

http://www.lonewulfmodels.co.uk/view_product.php?c_id=25&sc_id=68&p_id=974 (http://www.lonewulfmodels.co.uk/view_product.php?c_id=25&sc_id=68&p_id=974)

(http://www.lonewulfmodels.co.uk/images/products//974_l.jpg)

 :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 02, 2014, 02:53:00 AM
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2014, 03:03:11 AM
LOL - if there's been someone here to have a bet with, I'd just have won it...... 8)

It's in the correct scale: what more could any sane person want?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 02, 2014, 03:39:30 AM
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
Aside from the Verlinden interpretation of that turret and gun combination in 1:35th scale there is a guy by the name of Greg Buechler making turned metal barrels on Missing-Lynx forums to sell. 

Missing Lynx Forums - IMI 60mm update (http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/thread/1288532966/IMI+60mm+update)
PhotoBucket Image Gallery - Sherman with 60mm HVMS (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/GregBuechler/library/?sort=3&page=1)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 02, 2014, 04:44:47 AM
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2014, 08:42:38 AM
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D

Probably too small for a Scorpion, but a Marder, Warrior or Bradley would be right on the money. IIRC, there was a proposal back in the 1960s to fit the Marder with a Bofors 57mm.

Since the 60mm has primarily been marketed as a refit/upgrade system, you might also imagine the turret on a BMP-2, PT-76, or Chaffee. It would also go on a LAV/Striker or a Luchs armoured car.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 02, 2014, 04:28:47 PM
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
Aside from the Verlinden interpretation of that turret and gun combination in 1:35th scale there is a guy by the name of Greg Buechler making turned metal barrels on Missing-Lynx forums to sell. 

Missing Lynx Forums - IMI 60mm update ([url]http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/thread/1288532966/IMI+60mm+update[/url])
PhotoBucket Image Gallery - Sherman with 60mm HVMS ([url]http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/GregBuechler/library/?sort=3&page=1[/url])


Thanks Jeff - will contact him.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 02, 2014, 04:29:33 PM
LOL - if there's been someone here to have a bet with, I'd just have won it...... 8)

It's in the correct scale: what more could any sane person want?

Yeah, yeah...don't make me bring you into line. :icon_punal:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 04, 2014, 03:44:02 PM
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D

Probably too small for a Scorpion, but a Marder, Warrior or Bradley would be right on the money. IIRC, there was a proposal back in the 1960s to fit the Marder with a Bofors 57mm.

MMm, yes and no.  That was part of the experimentation undertaken by the Germans when they were looking at those weird fixed casement versions of the Leopard I and II armed with twin guns.

The Marder variant was intended to act as an "escort" vehicle, which foresaw several assigned to protect the flanks and rear of the casement MBT.  It was quite an interesting revision in some ways back to Basil Liddel-Hart's 1920-30s writing on mechanised warfare which likened it to naval warfare.

The trials were carried out with a Bofors 57mm AA gun which was placed inverted in a new turret on top of the Marder, which was also armed with twin TOW launchers IIRC.  The 57mm suffered feed problems which were never worked out and the whole concept fell to pieces when the normal Leopard II with its turret entered service.


Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2014, 02:58:27 AM

The trials were carried out with a Bofors 57mm AA gun which was placed inverted in a new turret on top of the Marder, which was also armed with twin TOW launchers IIRC. 


That would be this one:

(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BegleitPz_Marder_57mm_1977_Heckansicht.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx123/AnotherBerliner/de_begleitpanzer57_01.jpg)

See more here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1074.0)

There was this version of the Dardo IFV with a OTO Melara 60mm HVMS gun (this was derived from the jointly designed Otobreda and IMI self-loading 60mm HVMS 60 (High-Velocity Medium-Support) gun - the gun on the Chilean tanks is the IMI version of the same).

(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/img196.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 05, 2014, 12:51:58 PM
Yes, Greg, thats the one.  There was also another version, armed IIRC a 40mm Bofors gun and a HOT launcher for comparison.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on April 05, 2014, 03:44:38 PM
There was also another version, armed IIRC a 40mm Bofors gun and a HOT launcher for comparison.

Oooo, that's a new one to me. Any details on this 40mm Begleitpanzer?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 11, 2014, 08:00:55 PM
A 35mm would have made sense too for commonality with the Gepard.

Back onto the M-113. 

I have been thinking about the botched Australian upgrade and what could have been achieved instead for less money while delivering improved capability. 

Just an idea but most of this could have been done quite easily with the vehicles entering service a decade earlier than what really happened, delivering greater capability, improved reliability at a reduced cost of acquisition and ownership, compared to what the ADF is currently lumbered with.  An interesting twist would be to assume Australia accepted the German offer for upgraded Marders during the 90s so that the M-113s could be used en-mass by the Cavalry, Regular and Reserve and then the turrets used on the M-113 FOV could be used on the upgraded Marders too.  ;D


Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 11, 2014, 09:03:02 PM
Unfortunately what has killed the M113AS1/2/3/4 was the end user being seduced by the contractor.  It was a case of, "Well, we can add this, if you spend a little more money..." and of course we then had project creep setting in.

Didn't help that they decided to actually rebuild the APCs in a complete arse-about fashion.  I worked for the company that had the contract for the CNC milling machine for the hulls, so I had a chance to have a bit of a crawl around looking at how they were doing it.  Instead of simply either cutting and splicing two hulls to make one or even just purchasing complete new hulls from FMC, they decided to cut each hull and splice in a short section of manufactured flat plates to match the hull contours.  I simply cannot imagine why they did that way, considering the problems encountered overseas with aluminium welds cracking in AFV hulls after a bit of pounding.   It meant that each hull was bespoke and took considerably more time to produce.  Our machine basically machined the suspension holes in the hull and made sure they were all perfectly aligned.  Having seen some of the cracks they had in the donor hulls, I'm surprised they even bothered.

The M113AS1/2/3/4 started out as quite a sensible, low budget upgrade but grew like topsy.  Loads of guilt as to why it happened to share around, from poor project management through to contractors rubbing their hands with glee as the moneypot they believed they had access to.  In the end, it would have been easier and cheaper to just junk the lot and buy new.  :-\
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 11, 2014, 11:17:30 PM
Worked with a couple of different people who were on that project and more recently who are in the ADF an use the stupid things, no one has anything nice to say about it.

They should have kept it simple and modular, not even bothered lengthening, just freed up space with external fuel tanks and a RCWS in place of the turret on the actual carrier versions.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on April 12, 2014, 12:39:23 AM


Back onto the M-113....Deloc 25mm turret (as manufactured in Australia for ASLAV25) for DFS version,


Totally plausible:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8387/8642968382_3e92cdca9a_c.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 12, 2014, 03:37:55 AM
Yes totally that why I put it in.  I actually had been on the short list to be the receiving inspection supervisor at the GDLS factory that manufactures that turret and had to withdraw, biggest misstate of my life, delayed me getting into defence by five years and ironically I ended up working with the man who would have been my boss and was to have interviewed me a few years later.  I can't say if it would have got me the job but I got on very well with him and he was an ex RAN FAA Tracker maintainer and I know my FAA types aircraft, ships and history  ;).  Spent hours talking about armour, aviation and the RAN over the time working together.

Another bloke there had been an engineer on the selected AS3/4 .50cal turret and told me the issues with that.  I haven't heard anything about those issues in service so they either fixed the problem or haven't fired enough rounds to cause the failure mode identified  :(.  Worked with the senior structural engineer form the project at another place and heard all about the delamination as well as the cracking issue with the current hulls.  Apparently the add on armour is great the issue was the poor condition of the original hulls (fixed at great expense) and the drive train (a current neighbour who has driven them say they are still crap.

I used to drive the original A1 pre-mod when in uniform (not taking an offer to go reg is another big regret) and all they needed was a better engine (plus upgraded transfer case, trans and diff to cope), protection and track.  Keep the weight down and the original suspension would have been fine.  An RCS and external tanks would have fixed this volume issues and the support versions wouldn't have had vegies in the back so there was plenty of space anyway.  My list was simply a list of MOTS options to fill a variety of roles that a zero timed fleet could have filled. We started with, from memory over a thousand of them and ended up with 4-500 over a decade later with the reserve stripped of all vehicles, not a good result.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2014, 04:06:22 AM
The basics of the M113AS4 upgrade:

(http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/images/14.jpg)

NOTE: This diagram is representational only, it does not include Government furnished equipment reclaimed from A1 vehicles or manufactured items under the Commercial Support Program Contract.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2014, 04:10:06 AM
Here's another I like - the M113AS4 ALV:

(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/liljas76/DSC00458.jpg)
(http://www.defencemodels.com.au/Projects/img/Tilly2.jpg)
(http://www.defencemodels.com.au/Projects/img/Tilly1.jpg)
(http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0362005/pictures/M113_logistic%202.jpg)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9498/alv1cm6.jpg)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9995/alv2lh1.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2014, 04:10:36 AM
Now, can anyone identify this version:

(http://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/m113as4-500-27.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on April 12, 2014, 11:23:55 AM
M113HOT
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 12, 2014, 11:45:21 AM
M113K "Miranda" with twin 34s.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: arkon on April 12, 2014, 02:25:08 PM
victorias secret
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2014, 02:16:47 AM
I'm surprised no one has asked "what M113?" ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 14, 2014, 10:21:45 AM
I'm surprised no one has asked "what M113?" ;D

Was there an M-113 in the photo?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 14, 2014, 04:21:50 PM
Supposedly...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 14, 2014, 07:07:36 PM
Well I can see a front-heavy chassis that's getting wet.......



That didn't help, did it?  :-[
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 13, 2014, 02:32:40 AM
As a subtle whiff, what about a M113 with a bow gun like the Japanese Type 60 APC:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/JGSDF_Type_60_APC.JPEG)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 13, 2014, 02:53:35 AM
As a subtle whiff, what about a M113 with a bow gun like the Japanese Type 60 APC:

Could be done, but who's going to operate it? You'd have to rearrange the bucket to have it's engine in the middle like the Type SU 60 (the later Type 73 had the same layout too), in order to get a gunner alongside the driver. Mind you, that would be a nice whiff in itself: I've heard the Type 60 dismissed as "just an M113 copy" several times by people who havn't really looked at it.... >:D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 13, 2014, 02:54:38 AM
Maybe have the driver be the gunner?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on May 13, 2014, 03:06:13 AM
Maybe have the driver be the gunner?

You need both hands to steer an M-113
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 13, 2014, 03:15:44 AM
Mmm... history hasn't been kind to driver-operated MGs up to now, but it might be doable with modern technology. Perhaps you could have some kind of system that puts a moveable aim point into the driver's periscope and he aimes the gun with a "coolie hat" controller on one of the sticks. Awful lot of trouble jsut for one, limited traverse MG though...

On kind of the same subject, a system I came up with ages ago for a heavy APC had two AGLs one on the front of each sponson, which could be controlled by the driver or commander. The commander could use them in a sophisticated way, but the driver had a very simple "emergency pattern" button which basically filled the frontal arc of the vehicle with frag and/or smoke. There no aiming involved: it was just an emergency "go around the corner into a street full of RPGs - sh*t!!!" facility...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on May 13, 2014, 06:00:00 AM
As a subtle whiff, what about a M113 with a bow gun like the Japanese Type 60 APC:

Could be done, but who's going to operate it? You'd have to rearrange the bucket to have it's engine in the middle like the Type SU 60 (the later Type 73 had the same layout too), in order to get a gunner alongside the driver. Mind you, that would be a nice whiff in itself: I've heard the Type 60 dismissed as "just an M113 copy" several times by people who havn't really looked at it.... >:D

Indeed, just look at the suspension. Much more tank like than the M-113. I kind of like the frontal MG. Keeps heads down while the troops are exiting out the back.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 14, 2014, 02:05:25 AM
I was thinking the driver would only operate the gun when not driving.  This would be more of a covering fire weapon when the troops were leaving the back.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 14, 2014, 02:14:59 AM

On kind of the same subject, a system I came up with ages ago for a heavy APC had two AGLs one on the front of each sponson, which could be controlled by the driver or commander. The commander could use them in a sophisticated way, but the driver had a very simple "emergency pattern" button which basically filled the frontal arc of the vehicle with frag and/or smoke. There no aiming involved: it was just an emergency "go around the corner into a street full of RPGs - sh*t!!!" facility...


Maybe a bit like the guns in the BMD series of vehicles:

(http://www.dishmodels.ru/picture/wlk/01/01761/w01761_1196378.jpg)

and even in the BMP-3:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/US_Navy_030223-N-1050K-001_UAE_offloads_a_BMP3_Tank_at_a_Kuwaiti_port_facility_from_its_Elbahia_L62_landing_craft.jpg/1280px-US_Navy_030223-N-1050K-001_UAE_offloads_a_BMP3_Tank_at_a_Kuwaiti_port_facility_from_its_Elbahia_L62_landing_craft.jpg)

Look above tracks in each case.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 14, 2014, 02:35:28 AM
Hmmm….

(http://i.imgur.com/keOCQud.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 14, 2014, 02:58:02 AM
And another:

(http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2013-10/1382411936_5.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on May 14, 2014, 07:51:40 AM
At first glance, that last one looks like the world's most sophisticated potato gun installation.  ;D

The variant with the 70mm rocket launchers looks interesting.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 14, 2014, 09:26:06 AM
Hmmm….

([url]http://i.imgur.com/keOCQud.jpg[/url])


IIRC that is a mine clearing system.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 15, 2014, 02:49:41 AM
Another variation:

(http://i.imgur.com/hNImMFB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1imAv8m.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m550/JimWarford5/DSC00156.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 15, 2014, 03:30:01 AM
The U.S. Army solution to "gun port envy" of the Russian BMP and BTR :)

The one part of that program that made sense was to add on the two GPMG gun mounts with shields and the armoured cupola for the vehicle commander.  The original GPK :)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on May 15, 2014, 10:20:15 AM
I've never been a fan of the whole gun-port thing.

I understand the theory behind it; some situations are too hot for the infantry to exit the APC, therefore give them the ability to return fire from within the armour to suppress the enemy before "dismounting" (I believe that's the leftover cavalry term).

The whole problem is that to return fire the APC needs to turn broadside-on to the enemy, making it a bigger target & ripe for an RPG or similar to take out the entire vehicle, crew & troops in one shot.

The best option is to dismount the troops prior to coming under fire, 2nd best is extra vehicle-mounted fire-power, preferably in (remote) turrets.

1 x main turret to the front; chose your heavy weapon loading of preference - .50cal / 12.7mm / 20mm / .50cal-40mm AGL combo / 7.62mm minigun
2 x 2ndary turrets to either side rear; medium calibre weapons - generally 7.62mm

Keep the APC bow-on to the enemy main force using the primary turret, with the secondary turrets providing flank protection while the troops disembark & find cover.

My 2 cents. ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 15, 2014, 12:30:18 PM
The firing port idea was a logical extension of the problems of fighting in an NBC contaminated environment.  The infantry could not pop their heads out of the hatch and fire or dismount for extended periods, so the idea was that they would contribute to the firefight as the vehicle carried them onto the objective.  It also came out of experience in Vietnam where mounted infantry had become somewhat "gun shy" (with good reason) preferring to fight from within the protective armour of the APC.

All this led to the development of the IFV concept.  The Soviets were the first, with the BMP-1, followed closely by the Swiss/Germans with the Tornado/Marder.  The US attempted initially to use modified M113s but they were deemed unsuccessful.  FMC developed the more advanced version of the M113, the AIFV, which was a modified M113 with a new hull, with sloping sides with firing ports in them and a 20mm turret:

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Belgique/vehicules_legers/AIFV/Aifv_9.jpg)

The passengers sat in the centre, facing outwards, rather than along the sides, as in the traditional M113 (and which made the firing ports easier to use).

But the US Army passed on it, preferring to develop a more advanced vehicle in the M2 Bradley.   It was adopted by several other nations though - Belgium, Netherlands, Turkey, Egypt, Malaysia, etc.

Most vehicles that were developed with firing ports have had them eliminated in favour of increased armour.  The ports were a weak point, something the RN discovered in their warships in the First World War and most combatants in their tanks in WWII.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on May 16, 2014, 12:32:41 AM
IIRC I heard that another reason the gun ports didn't last was that it was nearly impossible to aim accurately from the moving vehicle. Better to have an accurate stabilized turret rather than "spray and pray".
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on May 16, 2014, 03:05:42 AM
not to mention 4-6 crunchies rockin&rollin full auto is going to create a lot of gunsmoke inside the crew compartment.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 16, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
Both good points.

I've realised there is a flaw in the logic behind these sorts of vehicles operating in NBC environments.  If it is too contaminated for the troops onboard to dismount and operate as conventional infantrymen, what does that mean about how the enemy on the objective are surviving?

The Germans used Uzi SMGs from the Marder firing ports.  The Soviets, AKM-47s from the BMP-1, etc.  The US developed a specialised version of the M16, the M213, which was supposedly retired when they sealed the firing ports but I remember reports of them resurfacing as dismount weapons for AFV crew in OIF.

(http://2006.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/12/14/38313860.jpg)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on May 16, 2014, 01:49:14 PM
Which is probably not a bad idea, given their compact size & relatively good hitting power compared to 9mm weapons.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on May 20, 2014, 10:45:39 AM
Hmmm….

([url]http://i.imgur.com/keOCQud.jpg[/url])


IIRC that is a mine clearing system.


This has been nagging me and so I went and had a look at Hunnicutt's book dealing with M113.  I was mistaken.  It is actually the XM1101, a saturation smoke screening vehicle.  It relied primarily on a smoke exhaust (which isn't visible in the picture) and intended to use the rockets to thicken up the screen.  Two prototypes were built but it wasn't produced.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 15, 2014, 05:06:55 AM
From 2009:  The Italian company of ARIS SpA (Applicazioni Rielaborazioni Impianti Speciali) has developed, as a private venture, a special kit to improve the amphibious capability of the M113 series full-tracked armoured personnel carrier. ARIS has developed an oceanic kit that transforms the M113 APC in a fully Amphibious Landing Vehicle, named ARISGATOR. Main parts of navigation kit are: the bow, to improve M113 floating ability and hydrodynamic penetration, the sterns incorporating two separate controlled propellers that allow high manoeuvrability in navigation up to a complete spin on Arisgator vertical axis. During navigation, the original air intake system is automatically excluded and a snorkel system on the top of the vehicle is activated. In this configuration, ARISGATOR is able to carry safely eight fully equipped soldiers plus the driver. ARISGATOR can safely navigate in open sea even in considerable rough conditions, showing a very low profile above the water and maintaining the same performance on land as the original M113 APC.

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/italy/exhibition/pictures/Security_Expo_2009_Italian_Army_Italy_Arisgator_light_amphibious_tracked_armoured_vehicle_personneL_carrier_Army_Recognition_003.jpg)
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/italy/exhibition/pictures/Security_Expo_2009_Italian_Army_Italy_Arisgator_light_amphibious_tracked_armoured_vehicle_personneL_carrier_Army_Recognition_004.jpg)
(http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/l/slun/m113_aris_2.JPG)
(http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/l/slun/m113_aris_1.JPG)
(http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/l/slun/m113_aris_3.JPG)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/the_pointblank/WhatAmI.jpg)

And someone has already modelled one:

(http://imageproxy.jxs.cz/~nd04/jxs/cz~/680/406/9c9fafd113_75169363_o2.jpg)
(http://imageproxy.jxs.cz/~nd04/jxs/cz~/200/239/6ed10e95a8_75169425_o2.jpg)
(http://imageproxy.jxs.cz/~nd04/jxs/cz~/053/134/c77ce9971f_75169343_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 20, 2014, 06:19:28 AM
Not so much a variant but rather a different weapon mount:  M113 upgraded armored personnel carrier with Samson weapon station:

(http://www.deagel.com/library1/medium/2010/m02010061900011.jpg)
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3605/m113samson.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on July 20, 2014, 10:46:12 AM
Does anyone do the Samson as a (good) upgrade/mod kit in 1/35? ???

I can think of some uses for it! ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 20, 2014, 11:08:42 AM
I wonder what that little flipped up panel at the rear left of the Samson is in the firing picture?  Looks almost like a small solar power panel.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on July 20, 2014, 11:08:54 AM
When was the very first stretched M113 developed?  I've been wondering under what kind of circumstance an army could have gone straight for the stretched M113 as the primary infantry carrier......
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 20, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
When was the very first stretched M113 developed?  I've been wondering under what kind of circumstance an army could have gone straight for the stretched M113 as the primary infantry carrier......

Hunnicutt discusses the M113a1e3 the first "stretched" M113 on p.106-7 in his book on the Bradley.  However, he doesn't mention any dates.  I suspect though, from the use of the splinter camouflage (who's designation I can't remember at the moment) its the mid-late 1970s.   I don't think they would have reached the need for a stretch (and there were even longer ones proposed BTW, with 7 road wheels) without first passing through the intermediate stage.  Remember, when the M113 was introduced, it was considered quite roomy and was adopted because the previous vehicles had been considered too big.  It wasn't until the proliferation of AT missiles and other equipment that needed to be carried by the infantry section that it started getting cramped.

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on July 20, 2014, 11:43:23 AM
I wonder what that little flipped up panel at the rear left of the Samson is in the firing picture?  Looks almost like a small solar power panel.

I'm pretty sure it's just the rear hatch of the launcher, opened to allow the egress of exhaust gasses from the missile launch.

(You can still see dust disturbed by the launch above the top deck behind the RWS.)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 20, 2014, 11:45:46 AM
Yes, you could be right, Guy.  I'd have thought some pop out panels would be easier for that.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on July 20, 2014, 12:11:16 PM
Yes, you could be right, Guy.  I'd have thought some pop out panels would be easier for that.


Looks like the missiles are loaded into the launcher separately, rather than as boxed units, so the blow-out panels would have to be replaced for each firing, so the hatches are probably better in that respect. However, for a small 2-missile over-&-under system like that I would have thought a side-flip hatch would be better/easier (which is what the front hatch seems to be) but I guess the designers had their reasons.

Just for fun, here's another pic of a Spike being fired.

(http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/2/1112.jpg)

Interestingly, the Pandur seems to have an alternate side-by-side version.

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/czech_republic/wheeled_vehicle/pandur_II/Pandur_II_2_CZ_M1_wheeled_armoured_infantry_fighting_vehicle_Czech_Republic_army_640.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 21, 2014, 02:09:48 AM
Does anyone do the Samson as a (good) upgrade/mod kit in 1/35? ???

I can think of some uses for it! ;)


There is this one of the RCWS-30:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/160x120-MX3504_zps0357da43.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on July 21, 2014, 05:58:43 AM
WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 21, 2014, 08:34:33 AM
WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?

Does anybody know where to purchase it?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on July 21, 2014, 09:39:53 AM
I know the idea of arming M113 with recoilless rifles has been mentioned a few times...... but what would the expert choice be if it's auto-loading v.s. having two guns?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 21, 2014, 07:32:13 PM
I know the idea of arming M113 with recoilless rifles has been mentioned a few times...... but what would the expert choice be if it's auto-loading v.s. having two guns?

Horses for course, really.  The T114 turret with the 105mm auto-loading Rcl. appears a bit overly complex, a problem bequeathed to it by the nature of US recoilless rifles, with the need to reload the weapon by sliding the entire barrel forwards to allow the empty case ejected and the next round to be loaded.  The British 120mm auto-loading Rcl. system, based around a revolver's rotating cylinder is much simpler.  The US system apparently performed well in tests though but it must be noted it was the Germans in the end who have fielded auto-loading recoilless cannon.   The multi-tube 106mm Rcl. is simpler and more reliable and the mount easier to maintain.  I'd suggest it depends on your resources and preferences.   The Ontos was simple and reliable and during the battle for Hue, well appreciated by the Marines which were supported by them.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 22, 2014, 02:12:21 AM
WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?

Does anybody know where to purchase it?

If you contact Lumir directly using the email address on the picture you should get assistance.  Speaking of which, he just emailed me with some exciting news re a potential future kit...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on July 22, 2014, 09:51:00 PM
Turkish AVCS:

(http://www.army-technology.com/projects/acv-s/images/acvs_1.jpg)

(http://www.army-technology.com/projects/acv-s/images/acvs_6.jpg)

(http://www.army-technology.com/projects/acv-s/images/acvs_11.jpg)

In following phase of SPAAg program, It was evaluated that Backfire of 30mm twin barrel and huge size of SPAAG turret integrated on ACV-S will both affect the mobility of AKINCI at rough terrains, and decrease the accuracy of SPAAG turret against aerial targets so It suddenly became a MUST to support this program:
(http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/cabatli53/idef%202011/Nutuk%20IDEF%202011/S6303094.jpg)
[Source (http://defence.pk/threads/fnss-new-ifv-for-turkey.219409/)]
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 23, 2014, 09:37:00 AM
"A turret armed with the Royal Ordnance 120mm breech loading mortar was installed experimentally on an M113A2 in 1987. This carrier was fitted with flotation cells on the sides and a new high displacement trim vane to compensate for the increased weight. The external fuel tanks also were installed." (Hunnicutt, Bradley):

(http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/d8e3562393e5f91cab3745e1ae34c7ba725fa6a.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 11, 2015, 01:19:19 PM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/imagejpg1_zpsd80b23a5.jpg)

M113 with vertical launched FOG-M missiles.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: LemonJello on January 12, 2015, 09:23:22 PM
([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/imagejpg1_zpsd80b23a5.jpg[/url])

M113 with vertical launched FOG-M missiles.


I have the inclination to do something like this with an AAV-7...someday.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on January 12, 2015, 10:58:44 PM
I remember seeing a photo of an AAAV-7 with its troop compartment filled with rockets with fuel air explosive warheads for a mine clearing trial, it looked quite impressive.

Back onto the M-113, how about either a Tilly, a Tracked Rapier, Chapparell or the flat bed version of the Australian AS4 updated version with a Sea RAM mount?  It just came to mind while I was typing the above.

The chain of thought was an artists impression of a conceptual Israeli truck based air defence vehicle incorporating a Phalanx between the axles and a VLS for 8 Barak missiles behind the rear axle which made me think of Sea RAM instead of Phalanx and then because this is the M-113 thread I thought why not.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on January 13, 2015, 11:21:32 AM
Sea RAM is intended to destroy Anti-Ship missiles at close range as a CIWS.  What would you use it for on a truck?  I suppose it could be used to protect high value point targets but I can't see it being much use in the field.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on January 13, 2015, 03:38:34 PM
I remember seeing a photo of an AAAV-7 with its troop compartment filled with rockets with fuel air explosive warheads for a mine clearing trial, it looked quite impressive.

Back onto the M-113, how about either a Tilly, a Tracked Rapier, Chapparell or the flat bed version of the Australian AS4 updated version with a Sea RAM mount?  It just came to mind while I was typing the above.

The chain of thought was an artists impression of a conceptual Israeli truck based air defence vehicle incorporating a Phalanx between the axles and a VLS for 8 Barak missiles behind the rear axle which made me think of Sea RAM instead of Phalanx and then because this is the M-113 thread I thought why not.

I think you'll find the problem with this is tracking & targeting.

Both systems, I believe, use external acquisition systems, however, the Phalanx system has its integral tracking & targeting systems, while Sea RAM requires the tracking & targeting systems of the host ship, therefore requiring more vehicles to provide those systems.

However, as part of a larger, less independent system, I could see the Sea RAM idea working.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on January 14, 2015, 02:27:09 AM
Sea RAM is the eleven round version that uses the Phalanx tracking and targeting systems while RAM is the twenty one round Launcher that relies on off mount systems.  The latest Phalanx 1B mount with the EO tracker would be even better.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 14, 2015, 03:35:17 AM
Sea RAM is intended to destroy Anti-Ship missiles at close range as a CIWS.  What would you use it for on a truck?  I suppose it could be used to protect high value point targets but I can't see it being much use in the field.

One could use it in a C-RAM (Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar) role just as the Land-Based Phalanx Weapon System and Rafael Iron Dome systems are.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on January 14, 2015, 08:23:55 AM
Sea RAM is intended to destroy Anti-Ship missiles at close range as a CIWS.  What would you use it for on a truck?  I suppose it could be used to protect high value point targets but I can't see it being much use in the field.

One could use it in a C-RAM (Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar) role just as the Land-Based Phalanx Weapon System and Rafael Iron Dome systems are.

Again only really useful defending point targets, rather than general field use.  It would be rather easily overwhelmed.

Speaking of FOG-M and Polyphem - what ever happened to them?  They seem to just faded away.  Which IMO is a real shame as both would be very useful on a battlefield.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 14, 2015, 08:41:54 AM
Speaking of FOG-M and Polyphem - what ever happened to them?  They seem to just faded away.  Which IMO is a real shame as both would be very useful on a battlefield.

EFOGM (MGM-157) was cancelled in 2002.

Polyphem was cancelled in 2003.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: gogs007 on February 14, 2015, 06:09:52 PM
Hi I came across this, would be an interesting build
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: finsrin on February 14, 2015, 06:34:19 PM
What the heck, hmmm.  That be different.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 15, 2015, 08:46:08 AM
What the heck, hmmm.  That be different.

I couldn't have put it any better...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on February 20, 2015, 08:29:48 PM
BAEs fall back solution for the Australian upgrade?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 12, 2015, 02:39:17 AM
For those wanting something different:

Quote
Hi there
The Mouse House Team is currently working on the complete resin / PE kit of an M113AS4 APC hopefully to be released later this year.
So far we have the basic hull and turret done.  The new drive sprocket and T150F track links are ready for casting.  The rear fuel tank just needs detailing.  Having said that, there are an endless array of smaller detail bits that still have to be created.
The hardest part was the front headlight cluster brush guard.  In the end we had that drawn and the master 3D printed.
If you are interested in purchasing the model in due course please register your interest by sending your name to webmaster@mheaust.com.au.
Mouse House Team

Brought to you by the letters J –T -M


([url]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/Myszka01/AS4Jan155.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s255.photobucket.com/user/Myszka01/media/AS4Jan155.jpg.html[/url])
([url]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/Myszka01/AS4Jan154.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s255.photobucket.com/user/Myszka01/media/AS4Jan154.jpg.html[/url])

([url]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/Myszka01/AS4Jan152.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s255.photobucket.com/user/Myszka01/media/AS4Jan152.jpg.html[/url])
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on March 12, 2015, 03:04:04 AM
Hi I came across this, would be an interesting build


The Alabama Slammer
http://www.al.com/specialreport/birminghamnews/index.ssf?dirtsoldiers/ds3.html (http://www.al.com/specialreport/birminghamnews/index.ssf?dirtsoldiers/ds3.html)
I've been meaning to build this for quite some time. Bought the kits and everything.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on March 14, 2015, 11:19:32 PM
I am in two minds about buying, let alone building, a kit of the AS4 purely on principle, i.e. it should never have existed and was a monumental WOMBAT (Waste Of Money, Brains And Talent), and ascetics, i.e. it is fugly, looking nowhere near as good as the original vehicle or any of the other various upgrades and versions I can think of.  I know its just a model of a real vehicle but the fact it exists at all really annoys me to the point of irrationality.  >:(

I used to crew A1s so am familiar with them while some of my neighbours are ARA so we have compared notes and they are not at all impressed with the AS4, saying it handles like a POS.  Basically, while an improvement on the original, the upgrade was excesively over budget, a decade late, and failed to deliver the intended performance.  A less ambitious purely MOTS upgrade would have cost a third or less, could have been ready two decades earlier, while offering superior performance, meaning the money saved could have been invested in a supplemental modern IFV and additional M-1A1s.  Alternatively the same money could have re-equipped the ARA with surplus Marders, including upgrading them in Australia, providing a vastly superior vehicle that, unlike the AS4, would actually be survivable in modern combat.  So many better options than what we actually did, every report into the project has slammed it yet there it is, a tactically useless vehicle still in service, endangering the lives of its crews if it were ever to be used in combat.

Rant over.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 13, 2015, 03:09:35 AM
Random thought:  The Australian Army mounted Saladin turrets on M113A1 APCs to produce the Fire Support Vehicle (see below):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/M113_FSV.JPG/800px-M113_FSV.JPG)

What if they used the 30mm armed turret from the FV721 Fox (see below) instead?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/FV721_Fox_armoured_fighting_vehicle_%282008-08-09%29.jpg/800px-FV721_Fox_armoured_fighting_vehicle_%282008-08-09%29.jpg)

Add a couple of early anti-tank missiles and one starts to get an early 'modernish' IFV.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on April 13, 2015, 03:29:05 AM
Almost two years to the day, Greg... (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1282.msg43721#msg43721)

I didn't want to post this picture before from Hunnicutt's Bradley in case it pre-empted Weaver's work. Nothing is new under the sun?

([url]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o627/AGRA105/M113fox.png[/url]) ([url]http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/AGRA105/media/M113fox.png.html[/url])

But not to worry M113 Scimitar turret fans because this is actually a turret from the Fox scout car! So therefore an entirely different concept. No context as to what the proposal was for but possibly a sales attempt from the makers of the Rarden 30mm gun?


And here's Weaver's aforementioned build of it.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/M113s/m113section1.jpg)

Rumor is that the Canadians actually built such a Frankenstein (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,105622.msg1137732.html?PHPSESSID=616t84foio4rjp4f581ua5qsg4#msg1137732) to test against one with a Delco turret and 25mm Bushmaster (pictured below), but I've only seen the Delco-turreted prototype, not the Fox-turreted one that was mentioned.

(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/trackjam/734694_330700093701487_1778311904_n-1.jpg)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 14, 2015, 02:01:38 AM
Doh!  Use me as an example of what not to do - i.e one should first check earlier posts... :-[
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 14, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Except that mine's a Scimitar turret, not a Fox turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 05:38:09 AM
Somewhere under there there is a design that started off as a M113:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Dutch_YPR-765_in_Afghanistan.jpg/1024px-Dutch_YPR-765_in_Afghanistan.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 05:39:22 AM
Ditto:

(http://i.imgur.com/pQJb0YP.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 05:40:24 AM
What's more challenging...adding the gun on top or replicating the paint scheme?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Lebanese_M113_ZU23.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 05:41:10 AM
Another from Lebanon:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Lebanese_M113_ZPU4.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 06:45:19 AM
More interesting Lebanese paint jobs:

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/lafran-6840.jpg)
(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/armc-207.jpg)
(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/arai-01.jpg)
(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/arai-02.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 07:59:43 AM
Jordanian M113s this time:

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jorsn-03.jpg)
(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jorsn-01.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 08:00:42 AM
Some more Lebanese ones:

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/laf12b-07.jpg)
(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/laf4r-01.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 13, 2015, 08:02:23 AM
And finally, some walk arounds of South Lebanon Army militia M113 Kasman here (https://milinme.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/tank-memorial-in-lebanon-2-sla-m113-kasman/)

Example shot:

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/alska-4207.jpg?w=1190)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on June 13, 2015, 11:36:43 AM
Those Dutch Diehl tracks could use some new pads!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on June 13, 2015, 02:17:12 PM
What's more challenging...adding the gun on top or replicating the paint scheme?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Lebanese_M113_ZU23.jpg)

You can get the gun (Zu-23-2) in 1/72nd: Ace make/made one. It doesn't come with the shield though, so you'd have to scratch that.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Ifor on June 13, 2015, 07:27:09 PM
What's the missile in the top one?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on June 13, 2015, 08:53:17 PM
The missile launcher looks interesting, I assume they swivel down alongside the hull.

I have been thinking about what to do with my Academy M-113 and even come close to buying a Tamiya M-113A2 today (ended up buying Lego for the kids instead) as part of what I was thinking, so this update was quite timely. 

I've discussed the Australian upgrade previously so won't bother going over the end result again but the original project is worth a look for the purposes of Whiffery.  The basic vehicles were pretty shagged to the point of being unsafe with inoperable hold open catches on hatches etc. (I have the scars to prove it) and needed a birthday, the original idea being a limited upgrade and life extension to get the type through the 90s and into the 2000s, improved drivetrain, running gear, firepower and protection.  My former employer tendered an unsuccessful bid based on MOTS A2 and A3 components as well as various Israeli options including a RWS in place of the turret.

So what I am considering, besides modelling one of the versions I used to crew, is to do an alternative upgraded version for the Australian army, something less ambitious and more realistic than the real world travesty.  An A2 / A3 upgrade with an improved T50 turret or maybe a RWS. 

Then again their is always the Egyptian option, install a Bradley turret on an A2 as they did with the Egyptian Infantry Fighting Vehicle (EIFV).  An Australian version could use the Delco turret as built for the LAV II in Pooraka South Australia.


Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on June 13, 2015, 08:54:21 PM
An EIFV, not bad really
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2015, 05:02:06 AM

You can get the gun (Zu-23-2) in 1/72nd: Ace make/made one. It doesn't come with the shield though, so you'd have to scratch that.

You can get Zu-23-2s in both 1/48 and 1/35 as well.  All would need the shield built though.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2015, 05:06:34 AM
What's the missile in the top one?


Its the Hisar medium-range SAM from ASELSAN. (http://www.c4defence.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/HİSAR_eng.pdf)

Info on the entire setup shown is here (http://www.defaiya.com/defaiyaonline/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7753%3Aaselsan-displays-hisar-air-defence-systems-at-idef-2015&catid=56%3Aeurope&Itemid=2&lang=en).
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: arkon on June 14, 2015, 12:49:45 PM
Regarding the Jordanian  ones , I don't think they got the memo on how to apply digital camo.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on June 15, 2015, 07:09:38 AM
An Australian version could use the Delco turret as built for the LAV II in Pooraka South Australia.


Like this Canadian one...
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/trackjam/734694_330700093701487_1778311904_n-1.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on June 15, 2015, 07:13:55 AM
Ditto:

([url]http://i.imgur.com/pQJb0YP.jpg[/url])


I think they might flip & pivot. I see them being stored not alongside the hull, but on the hull roof, 4 missiles (2 pods of 2) flat on the roof. To launch, they would flip outwards, still parallel to the ground, and once clear of the hull, the bottom pivots toward the ground unit they are in the vertical launch position.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on June 15, 2015, 11:13:46 AM
An Australian version could use the Delco turret as built for the LAV II in Pooraka South Australia.


Like this Canadian one...
([url]http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/trackjam/734694_330700093701487_1778311904_n-1.jpg[/url])


Yes pretty much exactly, come to think of it I have seen that photo before but as I am getting old and forgetful I forgot  :-[

A serious problem lately, I keep coming up with what I think are great ideas but when I read a couple of pages back in the topics I usually find someone, or even worse, I have already suggested and discussed that exact idea, sometimes not that long ago...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on June 17, 2015, 01:33:53 AM
if its any consolation, I do the same thing all the time! ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on June 17, 2015, 07:20:49 AM
if its any consolation, I do the same thing all the time! ;D

"Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn..."    ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on August 09, 2015, 08:58:53 AM
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/middle_east/israel/weapons/tamuz_missile/pictures/Tamuz_missile_fired_from_M113_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_IDF_image_001.jpg)

Hafiz IDF ATGW equipped version of the M113... (http://www.armyrecognition.com/august_2011_news_defense_army_military_industry_uk/israeli_army_idf_reveals_the_most_precise_electro_optic_missile_tamuz_armoured_apc_hafiz_1208112.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on August 09, 2015, 06:08:34 PM
Interesting: more like a ground-launched Maverick than a pure ATGW.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 10, 2015, 02:09:29 AM
Hmmm...makes me wonder about a US development of the M113 as a dedicated long range anti-tank vehicle.  Maybe fit a Extended Ranger development of the TOW but losing the Wire Guidance?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on August 10, 2015, 03:40:31 AM
They've played with vehicle-launched Hellfires for years and the Swedish Army uses them for coast protection, so why not put a booster on one of those and use it from a vehicle to get the 20km range? It could be semi-active laser-guided from a drone or MMW radar guided.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2015, 02:13:52 AM
Maybe use a ground launched variant of either the AGM-169 Joint Common Missile (now cancelled) or the MBDA Brimstone for a modern day version.  Both have far longer range in the 20+ km range.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on August 11, 2015, 09:16:01 PM
How about a pair of APKWS multi-round launchers either side of a small turret including sighting system?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on August 21, 2015, 10:05:15 PM
Javelin Troop, Royal Canadian Artillery - Air Defence Artillery School, Chatham New Brunswick 1992.

The M-113 are fairly standard ISC versions. The Javelin could either be shoulder launched, or fired from the Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML), which itself was a man-portable launch stand. In this case, it's been placed inside the M-113 to fire out of the cargo hatch. To my knowledge, it was never live-fired in this vehicle-mounted configuration.

Note the amount of support vehicles attached to the troop. The M-113 without the missiles would be the recce callsign.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5767/20750179511_a7ab86c452_o.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on August 22, 2015, 05:09:06 AM
Thanks, great shot!

... To my knowledge, it was never live-fired in this vehicle-mounted configuration...

Sorry this is so small ... can't find the original  :P
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on August 22, 2015, 10:51:15 PM
That's a M113 for sure, but that launcher does not quite look like a Javelin S-15. Would love to see the original!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2015, 04:03:41 AM
Slightly larger image:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/54_zpsm6qwzhuh.jpg)

Source (http://www.militarycanada.8m.com/m113apc.htm)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2015, 05:36:38 AM
Egyptian Air Defense variant with twin 23mm cannon + SAMs:

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m34/ComradeAbdullah/nile23_jed002.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2015, 05:37:15 AM
It's Granddaddy was a M113:

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Nqq9T0MB8Mc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Zaskar24 on August 23, 2015, 09:24:38 AM
Okay what turret is that? Definitely AAA but I am not familiar with it. Would look good on a tank chassis to keep up with the fast armored units.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2015, 09:40:13 AM
The picture shows a FNSS ACV 30 SPAAG - it has twin 35mm cannon:

https://youtu.be/Nqq9T0MB8Mc
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 23, 2015, 09:41:18 AM
Ditto:

([url]http://i.imgur.com/pQJb0YP.jpg[/url])


I think they might flip & pivot. I see them being stored not alongside the hull, but on the hull roof, 4 missiles (2 pods of 2) flat on the roof. To launch, they would flip outwards, still parallel to the ground, and once clear of the hull, the bottom pivots toward the ground unit they are in the vertical launch position.


See here:

(https://www.fnss.com.tr/content/images/zma-30-urun-gorsel-en.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on August 23, 2015, 12:30:29 PM
Slightly larger image:

([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/54_zpsm6qwzhuh.jpg[/url])

Source ([url]http://www.militarycanada.8m.com/m113apc.htm[/url])


I stand corrected! I can make out the 3-tubes on this image. I wonder where that is...CTC Gagetown training area maybe?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 06, 2015, 05:44:35 AM
Is it just me or does this look like they've stolen some normal fencing material:

(http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/m113G3afghanistan2011_725.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on September 06, 2015, 09:17:02 AM
In Vietnam, US troops used to place wire fencing in front of their M113s when largered to protect against incoming RPG rounds:

(http://www.atroop412cav.com/tools/images/rpg2_large.jpg)

(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/DioRandy/Dioramas-3.jpg)

The intention was to catch the rounds, rather than detonate them.  I don't see why putting the wire netting on the vehicle wouldn't work.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 06, 2015, 09:57:03 AM
Oh, I understand the reason for the mesh.  Its just that usually, that used has a more purpose built/military look to it (e.g. below).  The one above though look like bits of standard fencing.

(http://www.combatreform.org/supergavin6tn.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on September 06, 2015, 11:16:12 AM
Different intent.  The fencing catches the RPG rounds, the mesh explodes the RPG rounds...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: jcf on September 06, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
Not just around M113s, standard setup for all armour.

(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww291/joncarrfarrelly/M109_ACAV_01.png)
Yes, those are M109s with ACAV turrets.  ;D

The fencing would get in the way on the move, get in the way during dismount and catch in the brush,
and the mud etc. Screens of fence mesh were tried on the Sheridan, but were soon ripped off in the
jungle.

The slat and bar armour worked on the monitors and the riverboats, but I doubt it would have worked
ashore for the same reasons mesh didn't.

BTW the Oz Centurions had their trackguards cut back front and rear and the stowage bins reinforced,
the former to reduce mud clogging and the latter to keep them form being ripped off in the bush.

Truthfully, I doubt if many of the current 'desert warfare' biased systems with their festoons of slats would
do that well if suddenly dropped into a wet, densely forested tropical environment.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on September 06, 2015, 03:51:28 PM
They'd do fine - there'd just be tonnes of scrap metal hooked up on trees in the green! ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on September 06, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
The fencing catches the RPG round and the slat armour destroys them by chopping them up. Also, on early RPG-7s, the outer skin of the warhead formed part of the electrical circuit between the fuse in the nose and the detonator at the back. Some early RPG screens were therefore earthed to the vehicle's electrical system and worked by shorting out that circuit so the detonator didn't fire when the fuse was triggered. Later RPG versions had an internal wire to avoid this. I think I'm right in saying that RUC Landrovers and British Army Pigs and Saracens in Northern Ireland exploited this effect for as long as it was viable.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on December 13, 2015, 01:06:02 PM
An EIFV, not bad really

Speaking of EIFV, maybe an export version of Linebacker based on MTV-L/EIFV?

===================================

Canadians used M113 TUA as a stand-in for tanks during their overseas peacekeeping ops- fascinating!  Is that MAG co-axial with the missile tubes?

And what if Canada did not replace those vehicles with LAV-III TUA?  Addon armours and bunker buster variant of TOW II to make them a better stand-in for tanks?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 10, 2016, 05:03:08 AM
Precursor to the Vulcan armed M163 VADS:  a M113 with triple HS820 20mm cannon

(http://russian-tanks.com/img/a_3_243.jpg)
(http://russian-tanks.com/img/a_3_244.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on March 10, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Ditto:

([url]http://i.imgur.com/pQJb0YP.jpg[/url])


Interesting and neat design Greg!
Is it a concept proposal?
What is its actual designation and its nationality??

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 11, 2016, 02:43:24 AM
It is designated the ACV-30 HISAR.  It is a Turkish development by Aselsan.  As of mid-2015 three prototypes of the system have been completed, with delivery of the first systems to the Turkish military for qualification planned for 2017.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on March 12, 2016, 01:30:31 AM
  Is that MAG co-axial with the missile tubes?


Yes, 7.62mm FN MAG converted to right-hand feed. The MG reticle has marks appears on the same TOW reticle.

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on March 14, 2016, 04:12:32 PM
It is designated the ACV-30 HISAR.  It is a Turkish development by Aselsan.  As of mid-2015 three prototypes of the system have been completed, with delivery of the first systems to the Turkish military for qualification planned for 2017.

Thanks Greg!

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 22, 2016, 07:58:47 AM
Modified M113s in Iraq:

(http://2015.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2015/06/25/25858859.jpg)
(http://2015.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2015/06/25/78749391.jpg)
(http://2015.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2015/06/25/72337205.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 23, 2016, 05:45:40 AM
A new one:  Philippine Army improved version of M113A2 with Elbit UT30 Mk.2 remote controlled weapons station 25mm auto cannon.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-U_jRitdtlTY/V-Ni3izalJI/AAAAAAAAHCg/7vii6AZpQbg8Z3Wvh8sAQYq6Qd436c2xQCLcB/s1600/M113%2BA2%2Bwith%2BUnmanned%2BTurret%2BSystem%2B3.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sN7Ql-Kn4T4/V-Ni4JmiarI/AAAAAAAAHCo/4ts-tEGy2swMlkmmOXK3FbEEHTyLUFz5ACLcB/s1600/M113%2BA2%2Bwith%2BUnmanned%2BTurret%2BSystem.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vtT_h_mPocY/V-Ni4PNYZaI/AAAAAAAAHCk/Q2Tx112tXOk7A_1xCTryJ9rg38jT0ak2QCLcB/s1600/M113%2BA2%2Bwith%2BUnmanned%2BTurret%2BSystem%2B%2B2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 23, 2016, 10:54:17 AM
That's a big turret for just 25mm. I take it that it's designed to not take up internal volume in the vehicle?

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on September 23, 2016, 12:28:10 PM
...... M113A2 with Elbit UT30 Mk.2 remote controlled weapons station 25mm auto cannon.

Finally a RWS that places equal emphasis on both form and function  :D

That's a big turret for just 25mm. I take it that it's designed to not take up internal volume in the vehicle?

According to the company brochure, it is designed to accommodate up to 30mm and to have only the fire control console under-armour.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 23, 2016, 01:30:50 PM
Geez, yeah, I read that in the designation, so I don't know what I was thinking when I typed that, but the point still stands. Considering you don't lose internal volume, that's not a bad system, I wouldn't think. That's still a pretty hefty turret, though.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2016, 04:34:02 AM
Video showing them in action:

https://youtu.be/fauja1BOL7Y
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2016, 04:38:32 AM
More photos:

(https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14054430_425805057590157_2940858056876149358_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14125096_425805047590158_1294248053774094219_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14115019_425805117590151_5803986617309209633_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14124958_425805140923482_858535259260954242_o.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: The Big Gimper on September 24, 2016, 04:40:41 AM
Nice.

Ghost in the machine Greg?  ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on September 24, 2016, 05:31:43 AM
<...>
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vtT_h_mPocY/V-Ni4PNYZaI/AAAAAAAAHCk/Q2Tx112tXOk7A_1xCTryJ9rg38jT0ak2QCLcB/s1600/M113%2BA2%2Bwith%2BUnmanned%2BTurret%2BSystem%2B%2B2.jpg)

EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE! - - - EXTERMINATE!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2016, 06:53:34 AM
([url]http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/middle_east/israel/weapons/tamuz_missile/pictures/Tamuz_missile_fired_from_M113_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_IDF_image_001.jpg[/url])

Hafiz IDF ATGW equipped version of the M113... ([url]http://www.armyrecognition.com/august_2011_news_defense_army_military_industry_uk/israeli_army_idf_reveals_the_most_precise_electro_optic_missile_tamuz_armoured_apc_hafiz_1208112.html[/url])


Another view of this I believe:

(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q716/AndrewJsPhotos/63533253_zps374b70ce.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 24, 2016, 06:54:30 AM
Another view of Swiss variant:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/M113_Kawest_seitlich.jpg/2560px-M113_Kawest_seitlich.jpg?1474666536929)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on September 26, 2016, 02:29:19 PM
Question:

I've seen a number of addon-armour kits for the M113 either being introduced into service or being offered for sale.

Which one of them is the most well-protected that you know of to ever be at least prototyped?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on October 05, 2016, 12:45:36 PM
Another up-armoured M113 FV432 Mk3

EDIT: Corrected.  Was excited because this one has its lower frontal hull covered up with applique armour.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on October 05, 2016, 02:33:18 PM
Except the driver is on the wrong side.   I'd suggest that was a FV432, not an M113.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Weaver on October 05, 2016, 06:30:43 PM
Except the driver is on the wrong side.   I'd suggest that was a FV432, not an M113.

Yep, it's a Bulldog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV430_series#FV430_Mk3_Bulldog
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on October 05, 2016, 09:05:48 PM
Except the driver is on the wrong side.   I'd suggest that was a FV432, not an M113.

Yep, it's a Bulldog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV430_series#FV430_Mk3_Bulldog

Dang.  Which means that I have not yet found an M113 upgrade without the lower frontal hull exposed......
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2017, 04:47:50 AM
Something that might need to be built:

(http://i.imgur.com/hdkETGL.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 19, 2017, 05:29:58 AM
What about a 25-30mm Bushmaster instead of the GAU unit?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
What about a 25-30mm Bushmaster instead of the GAU unit?

What?!  And loose the insanity element of a big 30mm gatling?  Never!!! ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 19, 2017, 05:45:34 AM
Only in the interest of ammunition conservation for the servicing of targets, have to stretch those defense dollars :P
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 19, 2017, 05:53:02 AM
Bah!  Practicality be damned! ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2018, 06:20:48 AM
Different view of M113 with IAI 60mm:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xFch6LOdfwY/VHxhWu2MXCI/AAAAAAAA72k/U9Hnlg0CvKw/s800/M113-60mm-hvms-w1d-1.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on August 27, 2018, 07:54:40 PM
Quote
The Talha is the first Pakistan's indigenously developed armored personnel carrier. The Talha uses chassis of the US M113 APC, but is better protected. Similar vehicles are offered by Turkey, however Pakistan went for an indigenous design in attempt to have a cheaper locally-built APC.

   Main armament of the Talha APC is a 12.7-mm machine gun, located on top of the roof. Various bolt-on armor can be added for enhanced protection.

   This APC can carry 11 fully equipped troops. There are two firing ports from either side - a feature that the M113 was lacking. Troops enter and leave via the rear ramp.

   Engine compartment of the Talha APC can accommodate either a Detroit Diesel 6V53T engine, developing 275 hp, or a Ukrainian sourced UTD-20 diesel, developing 330 hp.

   Talha armored personnel carrier is fully amphibious and can cross water obstacles virtually without any preparation.

   The army of Pakistan planned to buy 2 000 of these armored vehicles by 2010, however it is unknown if these vehicles were delivered due to funding problems. To date only Iraq has ordered 44 of these vehicles. Current production status of the Talha APC is unknown.

 

Variants

 

   Saad armored personnel carrier, fitted with more powerful engine. This APC has an extended hull and is better protected. It is armed with 14.5-mm machine gun;

   Mouz anti-tank guided missile carrier, armed with RBS-70 missiles. It has a crew of four;

   Maaz anti-tank guided missile carrier, armed with Baktar Shikan missiles. It has a crew of four;

   Al Hamza infantry fighting vehicle, armed with a 25-mm cannon;

   Satab command post vehicle;

   Muhafiz internal security vehicle;

   Al Hadeed armored recovery vehicle, fitted with a crane and hydraulic winch;

   Al Qaswa armored logistics vehicle. It can be used for carrying fuel, ammunition and supplies.

[Source (http://www.military-today.com/apc/talha.htm)]

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/talha.jpg)

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/talha_l1.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Twiddle on September 30, 2018, 02:33:41 PM
M113 camper-van

With a 50 Cal for the odd Zombie  >:D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on October 22, 2018, 01:40:01 PM
The M59, the predecessor to the M113, is said to be unreliable due to its power system of two truck engines mounted on each side of the hull and directly connected to the transmission.

Does anyone know if this lack of reliability comes directly from the engines, or other components of the drive train?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on October 22, 2018, 02:24:43 PM
I saw one of those once, a very long time ago at Ft. Hunter-Ligget in California. Very odd set up with the engines. One on each side of the crew compartment, Up in the sponson. Mechanics must have a real good time servicing the side of the engine facing the armor wall in f the vehicle.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on October 22, 2018, 10:07:04 PM
In fairness, the LVT-3 had the same sort of setup with Cadillac V-8s and the USMC seemed to prefer it over the LVT-4. That drivetrain came from the M5 Stuart, though, so you know it worked in principle.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on October 23, 2018, 02:31:41 PM
The M59, the predecessor to the M113, is said to be unreliable due to its power system of two truck engines mounted on each side of the hull and directly connected to the transmission.

An interesting claim.  Hunnicutt doesn't back it.  He notes that the US Army were quite happy with the M59, until its use revealed that it was a tad underpowered.  No problems with the drive train apart from the lack of power it seems.   They abandoned it's development because a better, smaller vehicle had come along in the meantime - the M113, not because there wasn't any problem that couldn't be fixed with a little bit of effort and attention.,.

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on October 24, 2018, 03:51:57 AM
This is a good video of the M59:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOVn61qnBHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOVn61qnBHI)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on October 24, 2018, 06:34:30 AM
I looked up a couple of articles and one mentioned it being unreliable. The others didn’t. Must be one of these fables that get passed around.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on November 03, 2018, 12:24:30 PM
No problems with the drive train apart from the lack of power it seems.
I looked up a couple of articles and one mentioned it being unreliable. The others didn’t. Must be one of these tables that get passed around.

I see.  Thank you.

=======================================================================

I have a soft spot for big guns:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on November 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
Hellfire Manned Turret System
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on January 14, 2019, 08:14:47 AM
Now that I get to see how its top side looks like, the M59 really reminds me of the Rhino in Warhammer 40K  ;)

Minus the side hatches.

(https://i.imgur.com/rwKwqDq.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2019, 03:33:03 AM
New twist on the M113 family thanks to here (http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/03/26/the-other-kanonenjagdpanzer/)

Seeing the German companies develop the German army and producers to develop their tank destroyers and APC’s, the Americans wanted a share of that pie as well. Specifically, the Food Machine Company Inc. (FMC), the creator of the US M113 APC (developed a few years earlier), wanted to sell something to the Germans. Therefore, in April 1963, an offer was made by FMC to the Germans for two types of armored personell carriers, called APC Type A and Type B (Schützenpanzer Typ A and Typ B).

Schützenpanzer Typ A isn’t that interesting, although it looks very pretty.

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss11_zpsupj8v08x.jpg)

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss2_zpsbzua2ver.jpg)

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss3_zpscrc1aw1w.jpg)

Schützenpanzer Typ B is much more interesting, because included in the proposal, something else was hidden. This is how Type B was proposed to look:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss4_zpsx2ltotd3.jpg)

As a part of the proposal, three more vehicle variants (well, four technically) were proposed. Two aren’t interesting for us (one was a 120mm mortar carrier, the other was a dedicated ATGM launcher). Third variant however was a 90mm Kanonenjagdpanzer proposal on Type B chassis. This is how it was supposed to look:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss5_zpsap3fazfw.jpg)

Basically, what we have here is a 90mm tank destroyer on modified M113 suspension. Technical characteristics:

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss6_zpsuxypb1h2.jpg)

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss7_zpsrljqftab.jpg)

And here is the fourth variant, 90mm Kanonenjagdpanzer with (unspecified) ATGM system (Shillelagh missiles are mentioned)

(https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss9_zpsdr6ubeju.jpg)

Might make for an interesting scratch build.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 26, 2019, 05:24:51 AM
The Schützenpanzer Typ A might be the focus of friendly fire on the battlefield - it looks a lot like a BMD-1.

The tank hunter looks interesting, but the complete hull would have to be scratchbuilt - it only has 4 wheels per side.

I'm not sure that I'd want to put the fuel tanks at the front, right next to the driver and the TC
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on April 26, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
The Schützenpanzer Typ A might be the focus of friendly fire on the battlefield - it looks a lot like a BMD-1.

Except this proposal predates the BMD-1 by about a decade and a half...

Quote
The tank hunter looks interesting, but the complete hull would have to be scratchbuilt - it only has 4 wheels per side.

I'm not sure that I'd want to put the fuel tanks at the front, right next to the driver and the TC

Depends if it is petrol of diesel powered.  If it is the former, I agree.  If it is the latter, I disagree. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: jcf on May 04, 2019, 10:55:21 PM
" ... a decade and a half ... "
Scutzenpanzer A proposal 1963.
BMD-1 development begins 1965, enters service 1969.

Frank is correct as it's doubtful, based on the history of weapons development/procurement
in NATO, that the FMC machine would have been in service any sooner than the BMD-1.
Which means you would indeed have potential ID problems in the heat of the moment.
 :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 27, 2019, 02:21:51 AM
A different sort of 120mm mortar version:

(http://www.army-guide.com/images/ams_i-asd002.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jacques Deguerre on May 27, 2019, 11:57:21 AM
Getting back to the M59 discussion from a while back....

My wife’s paternal grandfather was an automotive maintenance grunt in the US Army during the early ‘50s, although I cannot recall in which of the “Big Three” armored divisions he served. A year or so ago, I got the chance to look through his photos albums and discuss the various tanks and armored vehicles he worked on. It was an amazing experience since his memory is very keen and he had the chance to discuss this stuff with the one person in the family who has an interest and understanding about the subject. He mentioned the M59 as being the vehicle he hated working on the most. The scorn and exasperation in his voice when he mentioned “that piece of crap” was obvious and funny as heck! I don’t know if you could say the M59 was unreliable as such but when it did break down, it was apparently awful to repair and even routine maintenance was a chore. This is a man who worked on just about every late WW2 and immediate post WW2 armored vehicle in the US inventory, had a long career with International Harvester and has repaired just about everything from lawnmowers to cars and trucks to heavy vehicles and farm equipment. Yet, 60-odd years later, the M59 still stands out to him as one of the worst vehicles he had to work on!
Of course, this is purely anecdotal but I had always considered the M59 an interesting and under appreciated APC until I got the hear a first hand account from someone who worked on them.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on March 30, 2020, 10:26:24 AM
Hum......

Forgot to check its date stamp- in 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6cRr5oN4PY)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Story on April 01, 2020, 12:12:40 AM
United Nations M113s

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/arrow-graphics-c-92-35-united-nations-markings-military-vehicles--1048823 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/arrow-graphics-c-92-35-united-nations-markings-military-vehicles--1048823)  

https://i.imgur.com/xYty7pV.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/xYty7pV.jpg)  

(https://i.ndtvimg.com/video/images/vod/medium/2014-02/big_309507_1392461693.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on April 09, 2020, 09:40:00 AM
Studied proposed M113 SPH, with lightweight XM103 105mm howitzer.


M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on April 11, 2020, 06:31:21 AM
Fond this, the Aussie six wheeler; looking good in Aus-cam, too.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 11, 2020, 07:48:07 AM
Does anyone have a solid plan for how to chop an M113 hull in order to lengthen it?  The road wheel locations being the one major issue unless you cut all of these details away and make replacements after the cut and lengthening has been accomplished.  Any recommendations? 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 11, 2020, 09:59:02 AM
Jeff, I think the lower hull of most kits can be cut at the arm pivots. You could sacrifice a second kit for the extra hull section with an arm and wheel - just make sure to cut it in the same way as the recipient kit.

I think the hardest part is picking a spot on the upper hull for the cut. On a standard Academy or Tamiya APC the best spot is probably in the area between the commander’s hatch and the large crew hatch.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 11, 2020, 01:06:18 PM
@Frank3K - This has been one of those things I have been stalled on for a very long time (XX years or so).  While it was not a priority, I was getting tired of banging my head against the wall with trying to sort it out.  The M113 hulls will be Tamiya since I have a sufficient quantity of the things and they are the cheapest at this point for trying to do the hull lengthening upon.  I have always ended up halting at the suspension arms since these are a moulded on feature of the hull and not separate it has always been an obstacle to me as to where an appropriate cut could be made to get that small extension in hull length without cocking it up beyond repair.  The overall length of the extended hull is not that much and I would imagine that you could extend the length of several M113 hulls before you run out of material. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 11, 2020, 01:33:32 PM
Jeff - The Italeri and Academy hulls have separate suspension arms, with only a small strut molded to the hull.
The Italeri hulls have a notch for the main arms, which can act as a cutting guide.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 11, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
Hi Frank,

You know, I never paid any attention to the Academy or Italeri hulls and I have several (okay, probably a dozen) of both kits sitting right here in my kit stash here at the house.  I suppose my excuse is that I wanted to expend my efforts on the cheaper Tamiya hull and just plain ignored the hull features in the other kits. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 11, 2020, 07:02:05 PM
I'm imagining a couple of members putting up photos of six and for wheel derivatives of the M-113 in the near future.  Personally I've always wanted to do a cut down four road wheel version with a scimitar turret for the RAAC CAV REGTs.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on April 12, 2020, 12:48:06 AM
I made a cut down four wheel recon M113 with the Italeri kit - The almost finished kit didn’t survive a fall.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 12, 2020, 03:37:13 AM
Mouse House do a full 1/35 M113 AS4 kit (I have one in the stash):

(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/JM%20(2).JPG)

http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/MA202.htm (http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/MA202.htm)

Black Dog also do a couple of conversions:

(https://blackdog-model.com/_obchody/blackdog-model.shop5.cz/prilohy/9/t35206.jpg.big.jpg)
(https://blackdog-model.com/_obchody/blackdog-model.shop5.cz/prilohy/9/t35207.jpg.big.jpg)

https://blackdog-model.com/t35207-1-35-australian-m-113-alv-big-set-conversion-set-tamiya-1/ (https://blackdog-model.com/t35207-1-35-australian-m-113-alv-big-set-conversion-set-tamiya-1/)
https://blackdog-model.com/t35206-1-35-australian-m-113-alv-conversion-kit-1/ (https://blackdog-model.com/t35206-1-35-australian-m-113-alv-conversion-kit-1/)

The Black Dog ones would look cool with a 105mm L118 / L119 "Hamel" gun mounted on the back to give a light APH:

(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/OZA/L118Hamel%2001.jpg)
(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/OZA/Hamel%20gun%20parts.jpg)

http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/OZA/Ozarmourclose.htm (http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/OZA/Ozarmourclose.htm)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ysi_maniac on April 12, 2020, 12:12:05 PM
Now that I get to see how its top side looks like, the M59 really reminds me of the Rhino in Warhammer 40K  ;)

Minus the side hatches.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/rwKwqDq.jpg[/url])


Love this

New twist on the M113 family thanks to here ([url]http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/03/26/the-other-kanonenjagdpanzer/[/url])

Seeing the German companies develop the German army and producers to develop their tank destroyers and APC’s, the Americans wanted a share of that pie as well. Specifically, the Food Machine Company Inc. (FMC), the creator of the US M113 APC (developed a few years earlier), wanted to sell something to the Germans. Therefore, in April 1963, an offer was made by FMC to the Germans for two types of armored personell carriers, called APC Type A and Type B (Schützenpanzer Typ A and Typ B).

Schützenpanzer Typ A isn’t that interesting, although it looks very pretty.

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss11_zpsupj8v08x.jpg[/url])

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss2_zpsbzua2ver.jpg[/url])

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss3_zpscrc1aw1w.jpg[/url])

Schützenpanzer Typ B is much more interesting, because included in the proposal, something else was hidden. This is how Type B was proposed to look:

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss4_zpsx2ltotd3.jpg[/url])

As a part of the proposal, three more vehicle variants (well, four technically) were proposed. Two aren’t interesting for us (one was a 120mm mortar carrier, the other was a dedicated ATGM launcher). Third variant however was a 90mm Kanonenjagdpanzer proposal on Type B chassis. This is how it was supposed to look:

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss5_zpsap3fazfw.jpg[/url])

Basically, what we have here is a 90mm tank destroyer on modified M113 suspension. Technical characteristics:

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss6_zpsuxypb1h2.jpg[/url])

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss7_zpsrljqftab.jpg[/url])

And here is the fourth variant, 90mm Kanonenjagdpanzer with (unspecified) ATGM system (Shillelagh missiles are mentioned)

([url]https://oi37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ss9_zpsdr6ubeju.jpg[/url])

Might make for an interesting scratch build.


And these too. Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on April 25, 2020, 11:46:07 AM
Never knew about this derivative:

The 30 X 35cm Surface-Launched Unit, Fuel Air Explosive (SLUFAE) mounted on the M548 😯

(Source: Tank Encyclopedia)

I wonder if this couldn't simply be used as a traditional MRL? After all the U.S. Army had neglected MRL's until the advent of the expensive MLRS system!


M.A.D

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on April 25, 2020, 11:50:51 AM
Oh, and I found this!!😯


https://youtu.be/bjUwkNaJgJs


M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on April 26, 2020, 05:21:00 AM
... Academy or Italeri hulls and I have several (okay, probably a dozen) of both kits sitting right here in my kit stash here at the house...

Jeff: With a dozen Italeris and all those cheaper Tamiya kits in the stash, how about a 7-wheeled Norwegian M113F4 prototype?  ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 26, 2020, 06:16:28 AM
Jeff: With a dozen Italeris and all those cheaper Tamiya kits in the stash, how about a 7-wheeled Norwegian M113F4 prototype?  ;D

I just finished sanding away all of the suspension details on one Tamiya M113 hull the other night, wow, what a mess.  Green plastic particles everywhere but the hull details were gone and that gave me something to ponder on lengthening an M113 hull beyond the standard kit length.  Seven road wheels is tempting.  Wonder how eight road wheels would look?  I think anything more than that and you have a problem.  Also looked at the BlackDog resin Australian M113 conversion to create a cargo carrier/logistics vehicle but the price is a bit much.  All of the on-hand M113 hulls make it more attractive to just try and do it from what I have and not purchase a conversion. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2020, 08:26:38 AM
Maybe add a bunch of M113s together to do an articulate$ road train style creation?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 26, 2020, 02:55:10 PM
Maybe add a bunch of M113s together to do an articulate$ road train style creation?

An M-113 based BV 206 type vehicle
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on April 26, 2020, 06:10:08 PM
Maybe add a bunch of M113s together to do an articulate$ road train style creation?

An M-113 based BV 206 type vehicle

Volkodav, speaking of M113 based BV 206 type vehicle.......

'Tests conducted during the 1970’s with coupled M113's. The vehicle could be controlled from either front or rear vehicle.
In 1973, two M113’s were modified and coupled together to form the M226 Cybernetically Coupled Research Vehicle (CCRV). That work showed, once more, great potential. Combined, the two vehicles exhibited greater mobility off-road than an individual vehicle, particularly when it came to obstacle crossing, and used a more controlled system for the coupling compared to the rather crude pin-attachment in the 1966 experiments. The two M113’s which were coupled forming the M226.'

Picture show the M113 CCRV [know as M226] project during snow trials in 1973.

(Source: https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/category/coldwar-american-prototypes/)

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on April 26, 2020, 07:27:12 PM
So what you need is a turreted track with auto cannon and ATGWs as the front section, mortar carrier as the centre and APC as the tail, one triple track per section replaces the mortar with an AA turret and another with a direct fire low pressure medium gun. So one four vehicle section has four autocannons, two mortars, an AD capability, a medium calibre gun and a full rifle platoon lift  8)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on May 07, 2020, 06:45:10 PM
FMC produced two 'lengthened' versions of the M113A1E1, which was referred to as the 'stretched M113A1'. This 'stretched M113A1' had a lengthens hull and a sixth road wheel added to each side.....
Does any one have information as to what year FMC produced this more capable  'stretched M113A1' variant of the M113???

I'm also curious as to the year that FMC produced the 'Mobile Tactical Vehicle Light (MTVL) derivative of the M113???


M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Story on May 07, 2020, 08:35:37 PM

Does any one have information as to what year FMC produced this more capable variant of the M113???
 


This site says October 1978 to May 1979.
http://russian-tanks.com/armored-personnel-carrier-m113a1e1.php (http://russian-tanks.com/armored-personnel-carrier-m113a1e1.php)

That'd be confirmed by the date of this publication.
https://www.amazon.com/Development-armored-personnel-carrier-M113A1E1/dp/B00072T4K8 (https://www.amazon.com/Development-armored-personnel-carrier-M113A1E1/dp/B00072T4K8)



I'm also curious as to the year that FMC produced the 'Mobile Tactical Vehicle Light (MTVL) derivative of the M113???



Per this source, 1994 http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product313.html (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product313.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on May 08, 2020, 06:23:05 AM
Thank you my dear Story

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 26, 2020, 04:21:02 AM
Version with Hellfire missiles:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner144/m113octuplehellfire001_zpsmqjq2rd4.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/AE2BFD08-3654-4F6F-98E2-EE2D37F0792C_zps0kxqwnt6.jpeg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 11, 2020, 03:17:06 AM
The interesting things you stumble across online:  Australian Dept of Defence M113 Cleaning instructions:  https://www.defence.gov.au/jcg/jlc/Documents/CleaningManual/13.pdf (https://www.defence.gov.au/jcg/jlc/Documents/CleaningManual/13.pdf)  Lots of interesting photos too of various ADF M113s for those of you wanting a different sort of reference.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 11, 2020, 03:47:32 AM
Does anyone know of a 1/35 Skyguard Aspide model kit or conversion?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Batteria.missili.italia.jpg)

I'm thinking such a system on a M113 hull would be cool - a bit like this SAM 2Q12 "Cube":

(http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/96/213dcfc6b4c01cf4cbfa1a9c832f2696.jpg)(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/8d/9805c26cc578d506864e871ffac3238d.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 11, 2020, 03:57:09 AM
Stinger missiles on M113:

(https://www.aselsan.com.tr/ATILGAN_3428.png)(https://www.aselsan.com.tr/3a77eb76-4eeb-4563-871d-0fdca223207a.JPG)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on July 13, 2020, 06:29:02 AM
^ I think Turkish
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 14, 2020, 01:51:47 AM
Yes it is.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 14, 2020, 02:58:59 AM
Its just a test vehicle but still, it looks cool and shows just what a modernised M113 might look like:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebz-KlhWAAAmJKr.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on July 14, 2020, 05:56:07 AM
It looks top heavy
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on July 19, 2020, 06:21:01 AM
I'm wondering if that is a UGV?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on July 19, 2020, 08:57:37 AM
It is a technology demonstration vehicle which houses two soldiers, and has an unmanned turret. There are videos of this in operation somewhere on the net. It does look promising.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 20, 2020, 02:01:14 AM
It's a technology demonstrator under Israel's Carmel program.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 22, 2020, 04:05:18 AM
(https://rotter.net/User_files/forum/55a56bb535900463.jpg)(https://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?id=342666&w=898&h=628)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Kerick on July 22, 2020, 09:46:28 AM
Somebody tell those two guys that's not a good place to stand!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on July 24, 2020, 06:47:19 PM
Somebody tell those two guys that's not a good place to stand!

Maybe they're physically checking the BBDA 😂😂

MAD
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 26, 2020, 01:31:24 AM
Vietnamese M113 fitted with Soviet weapons:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Vietnamese_M113_in_the_Army_Museum_in_Saigon%2C_2012-01.jpg/2880px-Vietnamese_M113_in_the_Army_Museum_in_Saigon%2C_2012-01.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on July 26, 2020, 01:48:14 AM
There was at one time in the not too distant past images on-line of former RSVN M113s taken over by the new regime that were being used as farm vehicles/tractors to plow fields etc.  Swords into ploughshares in real life. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 26, 2020, 03:07:03 AM
Random idea:  fit turret from FV433 Abbot SPG onto M113.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on July 26, 2020, 06:20:41 AM
Random idea:  fit turret from FV433 Abbot SPG onto M113.

Quickie ...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Logan Hartke on July 26, 2020, 09:50:18 AM
You could also use the M474 Pershing missile carrier with the cut down hull as the basis for that turret, too.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on July 26, 2020, 11:43:30 AM
I like it!  A much better platform than the bog-standard Ice Box APC  :smiley:

You could also use the M474 Pershing missile carrier with the cut down hull as the basis for that turret, too.

"All my friends know the low rider
The low rider is a little higher ..."
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on July 26, 2020, 05:03:42 PM
Always liked the low wide stance of the soviet MT-LB and think the M-113 would look cool if it were longer and lower too.  That said there is the question of internal volume and existing infrastructure, i.e. lower without an increase in width or length means less volume, but wider, in particular means logistic support and transport struggles.

Then again the were the Israeli Zeldas with spaced armour and the flotation kits on AICV, ARV and MRV versions that look pretty cool as they are wider for the given hull height.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on July 27, 2020, 01:55:45 AM
The MT-LB and certainly the BTR/BMPs do not maintain social distancing for the riders. The M113 is almost a roomy mansion by comparison.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2020, 02:05:52 AM
Random idea:  fit turret from FV433 Abbot SPG onto M113.

Quickie ...

 :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2020, 02:06:13 AM
You could also use the M474 Pershing missile carrier with the cut down hull as the basis for that turret, too.

 :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2020, 02:15:38 AM
A kit of this would be cool:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Pershing_1_launch_%28Feb_16%2C_1966%29.png)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on July 27, 2020, 07:10:51 AM
The good old days of NNS (Neighborhood Nuclear Superiority (https://youtu.be/L951UPDh_CU))*. 











*From Michael Nesmith's Music Video "Elephant Parts"
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 28, 2020, 02:08:32 AM
 :smiley: ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on July 28, 2020, 06:24:55 AM
"In Germany, the towns are only two kilotons apart."
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on July 28, 2020, 05:45:19 PM
If I recall correctly the UK ground commander in desert storm was asked what would happen if Sadam used chemical weapons, his response was that chemical weapons are weapons of mass destruction and would be responded to accordingly, i.e. the Lance batteries they brought with them.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2020, 03:27:01 AM
Kind of a new version of the M113:  M113AS4 Optionally Crewed Combat Vehicle (OCCV) (https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_august_2020_global_security_army_industry/australia_awards_contract_to_bae_systems_to_convert_m113as4_armored_in_autonomous_vehicle.html):

(https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2020/august/Australia_awards_contract_to_BAE_Systems_to_convert_M113AS4_armored_in_autonomous_vehicle_925_001.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on August 11, 2020, 02:11:18 PM
The Aussie 6 wheeler M113 is a good looking vehicle, and makes for the ultimate radio controlled car for that inner boy!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 12, 2020, 02:22:46 AM
I've got a conversion kit for the M113AS4 in the stash.

You can also see a short video on the AS4 upgrade here:  https://youtu.be/yoTmgk1w9Pw

I also recently found out that the Germans and Danes have/had some 6 wheeled stretched version as well.

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 12, 2020, 03:46:18 AM
There's an M113 under there somewhere:

(https://readtiger.com/img/wkp/en/FMC_210_Skidder.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Rickshaw on August 12, 2020, 09:48:48 AM
I've got a conversion kit for the M113AS4 in the stash.

You can also see a short video on the AS4 upgrade here:  https://youtu.be/yoTmgk1w9Pw (https://youtu.be/yoTmgk1w9Pw)

I also recently found out that the Germans and Danes have/had some 6 wheeled stretched version as well.

The makers of the M113 marketed a six wheel version before the Australians decided to build one.  Theirs was a new build version which overcame many of the problems which the Australians faced by stretching the existing versions.   I worked with the company that was responsible for the CNC system they used to remanufacture the wheel stations in the hulls.  I'm glad to see that BAE finally accepted our advice and instituted a twin CNC system to remanufacture the wheel stations, otherwise it would have take twice as long to manufacture the vehicles!  The method used to rebuild the vehicles was IMO a waste of money and resources.  They would have been better off purchasing new six wheeled hulls from FMC.

Here is another video on the vehicle (interestingly from a Vietnamese commentator): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPDRiC72bo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPDRiC72bo)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on August 12, 2020, 02:11:05 PM
There's an M113 under there somewhere:

(https://readtiger.com/img/wkp/en/FMC_210_Skidder.jpg)

That would be by Mousehouse, which has since closed down, sadly. Grab one wherever you see it.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 13, 2020, 02:54:35 AM
That would be by Mousehouse, which has since closed down, sadly. Grab one wherever you see it.


Are you referring to the M1113AS4 conversion or the civilian vehicle in the picture?

If the AS4 conversion, you are correct - its a Mouse House Enterprises product:

(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/MA202%20Resin%20parts.jpg)
(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/JM%20(2).JPG)
(http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Resin/MA/200/JM%20(1).JPG)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on August 13, 2020, 03:20:55 AM
There's an M113 under there somewhere:

The British Columbia-made KMC-Kootrac Fire Fly is similar (or identical?).

I'd like to know more about that wide High Speed Steel Track (HSST). A flyer on the Australian Parliament House website suggests that the HSST is a KMC product. Anyone know if that is true (or did KMC take-over this track design from FMC)?

I'd also be curious to know if the HSST has ever been applied to an actual M113. I'm also wondering when the HSST first appeared. If it was before 1990, I can imagine a host of OpFor applications  ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on September 06, 2020, 03:02:33 AM
And, the Aussie cargo variant for the weekend, I think this is available as a kit or conversion in 1/35, for those keen.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 06, 2020, 03:23:41 AM
Yep:

(https://blackdog-model.com/_obchody/blackdog-model.shop5.cz/prilohy/9/t35207.jpg.big.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 12, 2021, 01:20:41 AM
Random idea:  Australian Army anti tank M113 variant with Malkara missiles mounted on roof probably using similar arrangement as the Humber Hornet shown below and with reloads carried in rear hull.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Hornet_Malkara_img_2363.jpg/2880px-Hornet_Malkara_img_2363.jpg)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/t9KE8BU.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 05, 2021, 02:20:05 AM
Sinai 23:  Egyptian Air Defence variant comprising of a M113A2 fitted with a Hispano-Suiza TA-23E turret armed with twin ZU-23 23-mm anti-aircraft guns and six Egyptian Sakr Eye (a local variant of the Russian SA-7 Grail**) surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), three on each side. It appears one version is fitted with radar etc and the other is the weapons platform:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmBPCMAWwAEMeAp.jpg:large)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/a8/60/caa8600e7efcfd4353127437a041d54b.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqMaDBLWwAEilP7.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAod_HEUEAUQ3Kq.jpg)

There is also the Nile 23mm which is somewhat similarly armed:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqMaB46XgAAVzK5.jpg)
(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2020-04/thumbs/1587015024_16-p161-egyptian-m113-sinay.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ar/0/08/Nile23_jed002.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: gogs007 on February 22, 2021, 06:40:19 PM
Singapore has a version with Russian Sam,s
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 23, 2021, 01:37:22 AM
Indeed - Singapore has had two (well, technically four) variants in use:

M113A2 Ultra IFV - modernized by ST Kinetics with a locally-built gun-turret cupola-mounted CIS 40mm AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) and CIS 0.5-inch HMG (Heavy Machine Gun) twin-type weapon station or the Israeli Rafael Overhead Weapon Station with the US M242 Bushmaster 25 mm caliber auto-cannons plus improved armour.

(https://i2.wp.com/tanknutdave.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/sing40-50.jpg?zoom=2&w=1160)(https://i1.wp.com/tanknutdave.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/sing-bush.jpg?zoom=2&w=1160)

M113A2 Ultra Mechanised Igla - Air Defence variant armed with six ready-to-fire Igla-1E (SA-16) missiles. There are actually two variants:  the Integrated Fire Unit (IFU) variant equipped with fire-control radar and missiles and the Weapon Fire Unit (WFU) version lwhich carries just the missiles.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/M113A2_Ultra_Mechanised_Igla.JPG)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/M113A2_Ultra_Mechanised_Igla.jpg/2880px-M113A2_Ultra_Mechanised_Igla.jpg)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/M-113_Ultra_IFV_Integrated_Fire_Unit_2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: gogs007 on February 26, 2021, 06:42:38 PM
I don’t suppose anyone makes a kit of the 40/50 turret or the Sam turret.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 27, 2021, 01:42:33 AM
I don’t suppose anyone makes a kit of the 40/50 turret or the Sam turret.


I don't think so.  Your best bet might be to try to convince someone such as either Legend Productions (http://www-legend.co.kr/?ckattempt=1) or Blackdog (https://blackdog-model.com/kategorie/afv/) to do a conversion kit.  You would have my support for the SAM variant.

Alternatively, you could try scratch building something.  To help with the 40/50 turret, these might be useful:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Ultra_cupola_1.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Ultra_cupola_2.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Ultra_cupola_3.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Ultra_cupola_4.jpg)

Source (http://kementah.blogspot.com/2020/04/circuit-breaker-day-4-pix-singapore.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 27, 2021, 01:44:04 AM
Speaking of pimping ones M113, there is also this available:

(https://www.bnamodelworld.com/bmz_cache/f/f888eb4d264f5c3a05d612dd3b47b081.image.950x686.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 27, 2021, 01:59:03 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Tampa_Police_M577.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on February 27, 2021, 05:47:22 AM
Those Soucy 'rubber band' track are getting really popular for cop M113s  :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 28, 2021, 03:52:02 AM
Some more of the Singaporean M113s:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_60FEhz_4Bf0/TBrxqooOSHI/AAAAAAAAAZc/X-_9UNMpb-o/s1600/NDP1995M113blog.JPG)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 05, 2021, 01:57:07 AM
The Malaysian ACV300 Adnan is based upon the ACV-15 is based on the American Advanced Infantry Fighting Vehicle, which in turn is based on the American M113A1 armored personnel carrier.  Either way, the Malaysian Paint schemes look cool:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/ACV-300_Adnan_of_the_Malaysian_Army_during_2019_Independence_Day_parade_in_Kuantan_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/ACV-300_Adnan.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ibIJDqUFpcQ/UjPK6K1VNZI/AAAAAAAABvg/ZYskmfFG6IA/s1600/ATM+Camo+Sep13.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 06, 2021, 12:08:33 AM
Progressive Socialist Party armed militia M113 w/ZPU-2, Beirut, 1980s.

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/pspmc-105.jpg)(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/pspmc-103.jpg)(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/pspmc-102.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 06, 2021, 01:23:39 AM
More:

(https://milinme.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/steel067.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 08, 2021, 01:07:56 AM
More of the Malaysian vehicles - loving these schemes:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t6pGaMUL5jM/WSXKkxOc3EI/AAAAAAAADXU/wk0uw2h8XEAprlzgKobZS9T435Mj5CfsQCLcB/s1600/LKT%2BMIFV%2B22%2BMay%2B2017.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on March 17, 2021, 11:33:16 AM
The Malay schemes look unique too.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 31, 2021, 01:31:14 AM
Here is a link to post at Missing Lynx forums with some WIP images of an obscure version of the M113 MTAB (Marginal Terrain Assault Bridge) that was built in very limited numbers for use in the Vietnam Conflict/War in Vietnam/SEA Unpleasantness. 

Missing-Lynx Fourms >Modern AFV Discussion Group > ModelProfessor's Vietnam Era M113 Bridge Layer (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/vietnam-era-m-113-bridge-layer-t328216.html)

Additional reading on the M113 MTAB:
DTIC Document (pdf)>USATECOM PROJECT NG 7-8-1018-06 INITIAL PRODUCTION TEST OF MARGINAL I'ERRAIN ASSAULT BRIDGE WITH M113AI LAUNCHER (DAAK02-68-C-0226) (https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/854618.pdf)

russiantanks.com > M113 and M113A1 Armored Personnel Carrier - Engineer Vehicles (http://russian-tanks.com/m113-and-m113a1-armored-personnel-carrier.php)

Hyperwar > FM 31-75 RIVERINE WARFARE (19710118) (https://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/RiverineWarfareFM31-75/RiverineWarfareFM31-75.html)

Someone did produce a 1:35th scale M113 MTAB conversion that is sadly out of production now and close to impossible to acquire.  I suppose at this point Greg/GTX will have to find and purchase one of these rare conversion kits to get the ball rolling again and maybe, just maybe DML/Dragon or AFV Club will provide us plebs with an injection moulded model of this very esoteric version of the M113 'Bucket' APC.  :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 31, 2021, 02:18:17 AM
I suppose at this point Greg/GTX will have to find and purchase one of these rare conversion kits to get the ball rolling again and maybe, just maybe DML/Dragon or AFV Club will provide us plebs with an injection moulded model of this very esoteric version of the M113 'Bucket' APC.  :smiley:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bd/e7/00/bde700659d5a31360e1bd21fd6e1602c.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on July 05, 2021, 04:23:18 PM
And then I found this, and wondered whether there was any further information on this little beastie!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on July 06, 2021, 12:53:45 AM
@newtonk - Great find! 

Definitely one obscure M113 variant that I have not seen before now, or maybe I have and completely forgot about it.  :smiley: 

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 06, 2021, 02:40:42 AM
See here:  https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/oerlikon-81-mm-multiple-rocket-system.23140/ (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/oerlikon-81-mm-multiple-rocket-system.23140/)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: newtonk on July 06, 2021, 04:27:46 PM
Thanks for the link, GTX!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: ChernayaAkula on July 07, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
Very interesting indeed!  :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 13, 2021, 10:16:35 PM
Minor modification - M113 trialing Soucy Rubber tracks:

(https://i.imgur.com/J5myhMi.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/1sqMYug.jpg)

Just imagine - no longer worrying about individual track links... ;)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 13, 2021, 10:18:17 PM
No comment...

(https://tankandafvnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/1418894208-m113-gavin.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: robunos on July 14, 2021, 12:12:38 AM
Have you been looking at Combatreform again . . . ?   ;D


cheers,
Robin.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 14, 2021, 12:42:52 AM
No comment...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: robunos on July 14, 2021, 01:22:27 AM
No comment...


 ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D


cheers.
Robin.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on July 14, 2021, 01:37:28 AM
Ah yes, the Gavin-X Comanchero. To be deployed in 2023.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on July 14, 2021, 05:29:26 AM
Have you been looking at Combatreform again . . . ?

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 14, 2021, 10:26:24 PM
(http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/inf/M113/slufae_02.jpg)(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-03/1521721956_m130-slufae-1.jpg)(https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-03/thumbs/1521721942_m130-slufae-4.jpg)

https://en.topwar.ru/138362-ustanovka-razminirovaniya-m130-slufae-ssha.html (https://en.topwar.ru/138362-ustanovka-razminirovaniya-m130-slufae-ssha.html)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on July 14, 2021, 10:45:04 PM
Stalin-schmalin! Who cares about his organ when we have the "Hurlitzer"! ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Story on July 15, 2021, 12:14:19 AM
Have you been looking at Combatreform again . . . ?   ;D


cheers,
Robin.

Sparky really should share whatever drugs he's been abusing all these years.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 16, 2021, 02:34:58 AM
Random idea:  Wheeled M113
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on August 16, 2021, 03:10:02 AM
A wheeled M113 has been on my Whif-list for a while. Either use the existing suspension arms or borrow 6 wheels & suspension from an existing kit.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 16, 2021, 04:17:57 AM
A wheeled M113 has been on my Whif-list for a while. Either use the existing suspension arms or borrow 6 wheels & suspension from an existing kit.


Six or eight wheels?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 17, 2021, 12:53:06 AM
Depends upon the wheel size
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Geoff on August 17, 2021, 03:10:16 AM
8x8 twin steer
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 17, 2021, 03:34:58 AM
Not quite a M113 but this might provide some ideas:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/7d/eb/9d7deb1cb6c25b4aae24b4facf465cc9.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 31, 2021, 01:10:44 AM
From 2009:  The Italian company of ARIS SpA (Applicazioni Rielaborazioni Impianti Speciali) has developed, as a private venture, a special kit to improve the amphibious capability of the M113 series full-tracked armoured personnel carrier. ARIS has developed an oceanic kit that transforms the M113 APC in a fully Amphibious Landing Vehicle, named ARISGATOR. Main parts of navigation kit are: the bow, to improve M113 floating ability and hydrodynamic penetration, the sterns incorporating two separate controlled propellers that allow high manoeuvrability in navigation up to a complete spin on Arisgator vertical axis. During navigation, the original air intake system is automatically excluded and a snorkel system on the top of the vehicle is activated. In this configuration, ARISGATOR is able to carry safely eight fully equipped soldiers plus the driver. ARISGATOR can safely navigate in open sea even in considerable rough conditions, showing a very low profile above the water and maintaining the same performance on land as the original M113 APC.

More on the ARISGATOR:

https://www.aris-spa.it/difesa/ammodernamento-sistemi/arisgatorval/?lang=en (https://www.aris-spa.it/difesa/ammodernamento-sistemi/arisgatorval/?lang=en)
https://www.ftsbelgium.com/downloads/ (https://www.ftsbelgium.com/downloads/)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on August 31, 2021, 03:35:06 PM
Not a silly idea for a military on a tight budget. :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 03, 2021, 03:45:17 AM
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/pmx120118-thesentry-03-1542127765.jpg?crop=1.00xw:0.846xh;0,0.154xh&resize=2048:*)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a25051641/mythbuster-jamie-hyneman-wildfire-tank-sentry/ (https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a25051641/mythbuster-jamie-hyneman-wildfire-tank-sentry/)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on September 04, 2021, 07:20:40 AM
I remember looking at this beast during the Firefighting GB. Good use of an M548  :smiley:

As the Popular Mechanics article notes, Hyneman chose the M548 to dodge private ownership restrictions on armoured vehicles. One thing that puzzles me, though, is relative ground pressure. You'd think that an M548 would produce less ground pressure than an M113. But its the reverse - 9.4 psi for the M548 versus the M113's 7.3 psi.

I know it is aluminum, but I'd have guessed that the M113's thick armour would weigh a lot more than the mild steel body work of a roofless M548  ???
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on September 04, 2021, 04:42:05 PM
Is the ground pressure calculated empty or fully loaded? If fully loaded, that would make the M548 heavier.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: jcf on September 06, 2021, 07:40:26 AM
It’s likely that is based on the weight with a standard operational load, otherwise it would easy to
get yourself in trouble in the field.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on September 06, 2021, 10:27:12 AM
It’s likely that is based on the weight with a standard operational load...

And perhaps that is the answer. As a cargo carrier, a typical load for the M548 would likely be heavier than an APC's.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on September 10, 2021, 04:38:09 AM
Plus the 548's track is slightly longer, therefore greater footprint, but more weight. Its close to 113, but a bit heavier. I would have thought the roof on the M113 would have made it weight more than the 548, but nope. 
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 01, 2022, 02:49:49 AM
(https://www.armyvehicles.dk/images/ets_m113_1.jpg)(https://www.armyvehicles.dk/images/ets_m113_2.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 11, 2022, 01:17:54 AM
When the FV101 Scorpion were withdrawn from service in 1995 due to the toxicity hazard in the crew compartment caused when the main armament was fired, they were then remanufactured into the Sabre variant, with the turret from a Fox Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle with the same 30mm RARDEN cannon as the Scimitar.  What if around the same time, instead of retiring their similarly armed (to the Scorpion - same turrets in fact) M113MRVs, the Australian Army decided to go with something similar as part of the M113AS4 upgrade?  I am thinking the result would look somewhat akin to the F432-30:

(https://i.imgur.com/bvPwhic.jpg)(https://i-com.cdn.gaijin.net/monthly_2022_02/650959581_FV432-30Rarden.png.d39aff70d915f65a98cbf671529739a0.png)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 11, 2022, 01:34:22 AM
Ex-Australian M113AS4 in use in Ukraine:  https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1568209101624168448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on September 12, 2022, 04:58:05 PM
Sadly, the M-113 may end up outlasting the ASLAV in the RAAC.  Maybe the life extension of the life extension of the RAAC M-113 could include surplus ASLAV turrets?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 13, 2022, 12:39:09 AM
Sadly, the M-113 may end up outlasting the ASLAV in the RAAC.

If it does it will be because there are other higher priorities.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 13, 2022, 01:36:56 AM
Taking my idea above further, look here:

(https://accurate-armour.com/expanse/uploads/accuratearmour/resize-null,600,aspectRatio/1510758124_c110_018.JPG)

https://accurate-armour.com/aa-products/135th-conversion-sets/c110

I wonder how well this could be fitted to a M113 kit?
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 13, 2022, 01:38:12 AM
Of course another idea might be to fit a Swingfire launcher to the M113:

(https://accurate-armour.com/expanse/uploads/accuratearmour/resize-null,600,aspectRatio/1510759157_c111_008.JPG)

https://accurate-armour.com/aa-products/135th-conversion-sets/c111
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 13, 2022, 02:15:19 AM
And in a similar vein, the real works M113A2 Mk I DK with 25mm cannon:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/14/b7/2214b775d64d0c5dbe05ee76b1d60ddf.jpg)

also available in conversion kit form:

(https://accurate-armour.com/expanse/uploads/accuratearmour/resize-null,600,aspectRatio/c080_1.jpg)

https://accurate-armour.com/aa-products/135th-conversion-sets/c080 (https://accurate-armour.com/aa-products/135th-conversion-sets/c080)

Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 13, 2022, 02:50:04 AM
Some M113 Air Defence proposals:

(https://ic-pics-livejournal-com.translate.goog/andrej_kraft/39228000/1584738/1584738_original.jpg?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/andrej_kraft/39228000/1582883/1582883_original.gif)
(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/andrej_kraft/39228000/341750/341750_600.jpg)
(https://ic-pics-livejournal-com.translate.goog/andrej_kraft/39228000/1583755/1583755_original.jpg?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

Includes use of IRIS-T missile
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Volkodav on September 13, 2022, 04:00:17 PM
Sadly, the M-113 may end up outlasting the ASLAV in the RAAC.

If it does it will be because there are other higher priorities.

Yes like deployable barber and sunglass shops to support RAAF operations  ;)

Dem RAAFies needs their fashionable haircuts and eyewear!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 14, 2022, 01:21:21 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of missiles, munitions, ships, aircraft, spares...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: gogs007 on November 25, 2022, 02:59:43 PM
I see blast models has brought out this version on a limited run. https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern-us-canada-em113a2-rapid-entry-vehicle-2/
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on December 29, 2022, 06:33:36 AM
When the FV101 Scorpion were withdrawn from service in 1995 due to the toxicity hazard in the crew compartment caused when the main armament was fired, they were then remanufactured into the Sabre variant, with the turret from a Fox Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle with the same 30mm RARDEN cannon as the Scimitar.  What if around the same time, instead of retiring their similarly armed (to the Scorpion - same turrets in fact) M113MRVs, the Australian Army decided to go with something similar as part of the M113AS4 upgrade?  I am thinking the result would look somewhat akin to the F432-30:

(https://i.imgur.com/bvPwhic.jpg)(https://i-com.cdn.gaijin.net/monthly_2022_02/650959581_FV432-30Rarden.png.d39aff70d915f65a98cbf671529739a0.png)

Although, I'm wondering how much troop compartment = number of troops would be lost in such a configuration?
After operating from ASLAV-25's, I would think you'd get a max of six troops.....

I'm also thinking overhead hatch use would be impeded = unhappy Diggers. 🤔


MAD
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 06, 2023, 03:35:48 AM
([url]http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/inf/M113/slufae_02.jpg[/url])([url]https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-03/1521721956_m130-slufae-1.jpg[/url])([url]https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-03/thumbs/1521721942_m130-slufae-4.jpg[/url])

[url]https://en.topwar.ru/138362-ustanovka-razminirovaniya-m130-slufae-ssha.html[/url] ([url]https://en.topwar.ru/138362-ustanovka-razminirovaniya-m130-slufae-ssha.html[/url])


Another image:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/Ky6SWYr.jpg)

I still think that this looks like some craze scale-o-ramered creation from here...
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on March 06, 2023, 06:11:01 AM
I still think that this looks like some craze scale-o-ramered creation from here...

Not wrong! :icon_surprised:

Move over, Katyusha. Let me show you how it should be done! ;D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 08, 2023, 02:43:31 AM
Interesting armed M113:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8014/7620189920_d2c4df92d9_b.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 08, 2023, 02:46:58 AM
Does this turret make my M113 look small? ;)

(https://preview.redd.it/proposed-upgrade-for-ukraines-m113-a-90mm-cannon-v0-p73iaa54zat51.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=f13523100357aa079693ed5f9a954da8ed66e09b)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on April 09, 2023, 08:39:31 AM
Does this turret make my M113 look small? ;)

(https://preview.redd.it/proposed-upgrade-for-ukraines-m113-a-90mm-cannon-v0-p73iaa54zat51.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=f13523100357aa079693ed5f9a954da8ed66e09b)

Sorry Greg, but my normal response is "it was a cold day when the photo was taken"😂

MAD
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Frank3k on June 06, 2023, 11:33:55 AM
Australian M113AS4 'Ute' variant in use in Ukraine:

(https://preview.redd.it/wybe5lfm0b4b1.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=2852e088ed43cce30d96cc045cd93577d90fe08b)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on June 06, 2023, 02:24:03 PM
 :smiley: :smiley: 8)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 07, 2023, 03:38:39 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: M.A.D on June 11, 2023, 01:10:15 PM
Has anyone got or know where I can find art profiles (proferably in Oz Army cammo) of the Australian M113AS4 ALV's please?

M.A.D
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Story on September 24, 2023, 06:07:48 AM
Anti-drone cage in the Ukraine

https://t.me/milinfolive/106961
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 22, 2023, 02:57:38 AM
Australian Army enhances capability with robotic M113s (https://defence-blog.com/australian-army-enhances-capability-with-robotic-m113s/)

(https://defence-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/0XgAmlD.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: raafif on November 20, 2023, 07:47:55 AM
Just bought some yellow paint  :smiley:

Not sure school buses should have machine-guns tho.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on November 20, 2023, 02:08:25 PM
I agree but there are some pretty rough neighbourhoods around, though, so I can understand why some do.
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Gingie on November 22, 2023, 06:40:15 AM
Just bought some yellow paint  :smiley:

Not sure school buses should have machine-guns tho.

I didn't know Palm trees grew in Chicago!
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: Story on December 19, 2023, 07:16:26 PM
If I read the clues correctly, it's a mobile range observation tower for an Italian artillery unit.

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/00/43/74/0043746f52026ad2194521c967923c26.jpg)
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 20, 2023, 01:29:11 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
Post by: apophenia on December 22, 2023, 10:05:55 AM
... it's a mobile range observation tower for an Italian artillery unit...

Yeah, ... that very sounds convincing.

"No Maggiore! We haven't just built a tree-fort on top of our VCC-1. Assolutamente no!"