Author Topic: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 161727 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #200 on: March 27, 2015, 12:51:21 PM »
There is a full page ad on the back cover of a Fine Scale Modeller magazine I have in the mag / book rack on my bed side table for the new tool Academy F-15B/C in IDF markings.  Where it sitting I see it every night and every morning so can't help but think about two seat F-15s and in particular the not often realised, let alone discussed, strike capability of the A/B/C/D models F-15s, brought to mind by the IDFs strike against the PLO in Tunis. 

I never used to be a fan of the F-15 but it has grown on me, especially having Singaporean Strike Eagles flying over my home and slowly coming into land over the road I drive the kids home alone during exercises and this ad, burnt into my mind, have me recalling discussions else where on the multi-role capability of the type even in its original A and B models in the 70s.  Yes it was employed almost exclusively as an air superiority type until the advent of the E, but contrary to popular belief it was designed to do everything the USAF F-4 (C, D, E) Phantom could do but better.

So after two paragraphs of rambling my point is I keep thinking about how the RAAF would have been much better off retaining and buying additional Phantoms in the 70s, after the F-111 was delivered, at the expense of some of the Mirages and the remaining Canberras and that the remaining two or three squadrons of Mirage IIIs could / should have been replaced with locally manufactured F-15C/D in the mid to late 80s.

The F/A-18 A/B had a number of advantages (apart from lower cost and a perceived better fit with existing RAAF CONOPS) which got me thinking arrogant and ambitious Australia of the early 80s could well have specified a bespoke Eagle, incorporating many of the new technologies on offer in the Hornet.  The glass cockpit, the multi-role with the flick of a switch, the diagnostic tools and maintenance systems, early adoption of the F-401 instead of the F-100, to take advantage of F-404 technologies, resulting enhanced performance, easier, cheaper maintenance, easier, more flexible operation, basically it would have been to the USAF fighter (as opposed to strike) Eagles, what the Avon Sabre was to the F-86F, same base aircraft but half a generation ahead. 

What would it be called?  Well there wasn't an E-7 at that point, so Wedgetail, as in Wedgetail Eagle and maybe F/A-15A/B for the Mirage replacement, F/A-15C/D for the Phantom replacement and an F-15E derived FB-15A to replace the F-111C.  Or maybe FA-15, FRS-15 (R for recce) and FB-15 to replace the Mirage III, Phantom and F-111 respectively.  So as replacements and supplements were delayed and cancelled across the west with the end of the cold war MD would have this Australian developed 4.5 Gen family of Eagles that they could offer instead of the ever popular Su27s, Eagles, Typhoons and even their own F/A-18C/D.  Something other than the F-15E for Saudi, Singapore, South Korea, Israel etc.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #201 on: March 27, 2015, 08:25:35 PM »
Err, I think you mean F110, originally F101DFE, rather than F401.  The F401 was killed in 1974 by a stupid Congresscritter, who later became SecDef, and the real replacement for it, the F101DFE/F110, wasn't started until 1978 or so.

The rest of your concept seems feasible, though I could see them driving the F-15C/D change with beefed-up structure and the common engine bay and this carrying over.  I suspect they might also look at an alternative probe and drogue refueling set-up instead of flying boom.

One thought, if they did go with F110-powered F-15 variants, they could then re-engine their F-111C's for gains across the board.

Additional Note:  The F110 drew a lot on the work done on the F404, the nozzle is scaled up directly from the F404's (as a reasonable approximation, a 1/48 F404 nozzle will work as a 1/72 F110 nozzle).  As a on-going development, the B-2's F118 borrowed hardware from the F101, F110, and CFM56 where appropriate and mated a fan that was resistant to very high levels of inlet flow distortion.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 01:59:00 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #202 on: March 27, 2015, 09:42:44 PM »
yep sorry, brain fart F110

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #203 on: March 29, 2015, 02:46:43 AM »
Inspiration to further fuel your idea:



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Offline kitnut617

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #204 on: March 29, 2015, 04:33:51 AM »
I've got a thread going on this forum, but I've been putting together an RAF Eagle F.1. I'll post a pic here as it seems an appropriate place to put one. I made some F110 engine nozzles for it too

Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #205 on: March 29, 2015, 08:21:14 PM »
Very nice and pretty much what I was thinking.  It would have been more expensive upfront and would have had higher operating costs but on the flipside there would have been no need for HUG, centre barrel replacement, F-111AUP, or Super Hornet.  Further savings could have been realised through simplified logistics and training as the F-15 replaced every other combat type, or as elmayerle suggested the F-111 being re-engine with F-110 (before replacing then with Strike Eagles instead of Super Hornets), as, even though its a bespoke version, it would have had mostly FMS supported systems.

I am really liking this, especially the low vis scheme in the third image, but the only problem is I only have F-15Es in the stash.... ;)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #206 on: March 29, 2015, 09:31:12 PM »
Very nice and pretty much what I was thinking.

Thanks

but the only problem is I only have F-15Es in the stash.... ;)

Mine is an F-15E (actually all the 1/72 models are of the F-15B that was converted to the F-15E prototype), there was a real world plan to equip the RAF with the F-15 (and some other European countries if they came on board) but the RAF wanted a two-seater like the F-4's that the F-15 would have replaced but more likely to have equipment that eventually appeared in the Tornado F.3. There was some concern that having the back-seater would lessen the fuel load, but they didn't wait to see what (or how) the conformal tanks worked.  Mine has the conformal tanks plus the extra pylons under the outer wings

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #207 on: March 30, 2015, 02:11:54 AM »
there would have been no need for HUG, centre barrel replacement, F-111AUP, or Super Hornet. 

Why would you say any of that?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #208 on: March 30, 2015, 06:09:13 AM »
Because we are talking an enhanced Eagle, probably with the strengthened F-15E airframe that would have been a generation ahead of the F/A-18A/B, courtesy of the F-4 purchase pushing out the required in-service date.  Also suggested replacement of the F-111 with F-15E in the 90s.  End result, structurally stronger, younger, newer better radars and the F-111 is replaced earlier.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #209 on: March 30, 2015, 05:35:24 PM »
I wouldn't simply assume that the F-15 would avoid the need for fatigue recovery work or something akin to a HUG...
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #210 on: March 31, 2015, 12:13:44 AM »
Its a hindsight thing but it comes down to timing, basically HUG was needed to keep the Classics useful through to F-35 IOC as AUP was needed for the F-111 when it was decided to keep them in service rather than replacing them.  Eventually the SH was needed when a capability gap emerged between the F-111 out of service date and three capabilities that were meant to tide the RAAF over until the F-35, HUG, KC-30 and AGM-158, which were all delayed.

Early F-15s suffered fatigue issues due to manufacturing issues with some airframes but this was not the case with the Es, so a later common airframe should also have been ok.  Late model F-15Cs were equipped with APG-70 instead of APG-63 and there are a number of USAF upgrades the RAAF could have adopted instead of having to go it alone on HUG. 

Like I said, hindsight, when the Hornet was selected the Phantoms had been returned, the Mirage was on its last legs and the F-111 had yet to prove its self, there was a very real need for an affordable, modern, multi role combat aircraft asap and the state or the art Hornet fit the bill while the more expensive F-15 looked to be coming to the end of its production run (F-15E did not exist at that point).  For the F-15 to have worked the selection would either have had to have been made earlier, before the Hornet was available, or later, once the Strike Eagle had been selected by the USAF, perhaps combined with an increased threat level (real or perceived).  Also the 23 remaining Phantoms being retained and perhaps some additional aircraft for tactical reconnaissance, or maybe even a Jaguar or AV-8B buy, would have helped by covering off a range of tactical strike and support missions the F-111 may not have been suited to. 

All very what if, but if it did happen the F-15 would likely not have required anything as extensive as HUG or CBR to keep it relevant into the 2020s.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #211 on: March 31, 2015, 02:39:25 AM »
the F-15 would likely not have required anything as extensive as HUG or CBR to keep it relevant into the 2020s.

I suggest you read about what the F/A-18 HUG actually involved.  It was only HUG Phase 3 that involved any structural work.  The vast majority of the HUG phases were concerned with replacing/upgrading electronics (EW, Communications, Radar, Link 16, better targeting systems etc)  All of the same things would have been necessary for a RAAF F-15 - some probably more so!
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #212 on: March 31, 2015, 11:18:28 AM »
My understanding is that APG-73 was the cornerstone of HUG and that this radar was an upgrade of the original APG-65 design that incorporated back end elements lifted directly from the more advanced and maintainable AGP-70.  My thinking was that if the F-15 already had the APG-70 then there would be no need to replace it. 

My thinking, and I realise I am most definitely an amateur in this field, is that the enhanced Eagle, which is what I am assuming these RAAF aircraft would have been based, would have had many of the systems desired for HUG as built.  They would also have had all of the MSIP (Multi Stage Improvement Program) features as well as ALR-56C and ALQ-135.

Like I said I am no expert and I admit I am just going off public domain stuff and the indicated dates but to me as a layman it appears that a further improved F-15 built in Australia in the late 80s through to the mid to late 90s would have already had many of the key features incorporated into the Classic under HUG. 

To me it seems to have been a case of moving goal posts, the Classics were perfectly good enough when acquired but the appearance of MIG 29, SU-27, F-16 and more advanced F/A-18s in our region from the late 90s eroded the RAAFs lead and forced either an upgrade or replacement of the Hornet.  It is my belief that an enhanced Eagle would have retained its edge over these types although I acknowledge I could be wrong.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #213 on: March 31, 2015, 08:12:38 PM »
My post was specifically suggesting that had Australia built a version of the Enhanced Eagle there may not have been a need for the $3.6 billion HUG project.  The Hornet was selected for a lot of good reasons and continues to serve Australia well but the proliferation of advanced types that were measurably superior to the Hornet meant that upgrade or replacement was a requirement of the Australian government.  Remember Australian Hornets were deployed to the ME in 2003 and SHs are currently flying missions against Islamic State.  This is illustrated well in:

http://www.anao.gov.au/Publications/Audit-Reports/2012-2013/F18/Audit-brochure

Specifically:

Australian National Audit Office

Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability—F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment

Specifically:

Chapter 2—F/A-18A/B Hornet fleet capability upgrades

27. The RAAF’s fleet of F/A-18A/B Hornet combat aircraft, delivered in the late 1980s, could not be expected to retain its original relative capability over three decades without significant weapons and systems upgrades. The Hornet fleet has therefore received upgrades of both its weapons and mission systems since the mid-1990s. These upgrades were intended to maintain the fleet’s effectiveness until a replacement was available that could provide a ‘quantum leap’ in capability.


No racism, no lack of understanding of Australia's strategic needs, rather a pretty good understanding of major ADF projects over the last couple of decades.  When an ally demonstrates just how much better their new aircraft are than yours, that you intended to serve for another two decades plus, and those same aircraft (as well as even more advanced types) are in use all over, including by nations that we could reasonably expect to be invited to go to war against in coalition operations, then it is perfectly reasonable to do something to remedy the situation.

Realistically, when the Hornet was selected in the early 80s, it would have been quite reasonable to expect that a replacement program would have been kicked off by the mid to late 90s.  The end of the cold war changed this and retaining the Classics through to 2015 became a viable option, selection of the F-35A pushed this date out to 2020.  These are facts, black and white, all I have done is suggest that had the Phantoms been retained the Mirage replacement could have been put back a couple of years and if the Enhanced Eagle had been selected at this point it may not have required the extensive upgrades the Hornet has to maintain its "relative capability".  Furthermore, had the F-15E gone on to be selected to replace the F-111 instead of it being upgraded as well as the F-4Es, then there would have been no AUP or SH either as the Eagles would likely have been able to serve through until 2020 and F-35A IOC quite easily.

How any of this could be read as racist jingoism in need of a wake up call is completely beyond me and I would suggest the real issue is flying off the handle without actually reading the full post.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #214 on: April 18, 2015, 01:20:41 PM »
just a thought, a JASDF F-15EJ with five ASM-3s plus defensive missiles on the side rails of the main wing pylons and on the outboard hardpoints; perhaps sharing technology with the F-15K and F-15SG, including engines (perhaps stepping up the 32,000 lit F110 variant as installed in the F-16E/F).  Bet they could get a good deal right now if they bought direct from St. Louis.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #215 on: May 31, 2015, 07:45:20 AM »
Need I say more?

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Offline Kerick

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #216 on: May 31, 2015, 10:34:54 AM »
Need I say more?




Don't let anyone in Congress see this, they'll think its real and throw a hissy fit!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #217 on: May 31, 2015, 11:15:31 AM »
Need I say more?



Hmm, now that's an idea that's going to stay lodged in my mind 'til I can figure out a way to do it.  I'm thinking retractable floats, but with a different mounting scheme than depicted here (engineer's mind already trying to sort it out :( - don't need this on a weekend when I want to relax :) )

Oh, that's a nice touch with the tail code, changing "AK" to "AX" and doing it cleanly.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #218 on: May 31, 2015, 12:43:36 PM »
Maybe have the floats retract into the same position as the FAST packs:



And perhaps use something similar to the Tigerish concepts:



Not saying it is totally practice...but we're talking about something akin to that image so practicality went out the window ages ago... ;)
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Offline jschmus

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #219 on: June 02, 2015, 10:15:11 PM »
There is a full page ad on the back cover of a Fine Scale Modeller magazine I have in the mag / book rack on my bed side table for the new tool Academy F-15B/C in IDF markings.  Where it sitting I see it every night and every morning so can't help but think about two seat F-15s and in particular the not often realised, let alone discussed, strike capability of the A/B/C/D models F-15s, brought to mind by the IDFs strike against the PLO in Tunis. 


I only just rediscovered this thread, but in light of this particular comment, I share the following link:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-amazing-saga-of-how-israel-turned-its-f-15s-into-mu-1701606283
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #220 on: June 02, 2015, 11:41:05 PM »
Thanks for that, a very interesting read.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #221 on: July 18, 2015, 04:55:41 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #222 on: July 18, 2015, 08:23:49 AM »

And perhaps use something similar to the Tigerish concepts:





Hey, where did that idea come from

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #223 on: July 19, 2015, 03:58:03 AM »
When does your kit date from?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #224 on: July 19, 2015, 05:16:24 AM »
When does your kit date from?

About 2004, although my floats don't fold away