Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration

[kitnut617]

They are neat, reminds me of a scaled-up HMS Intrepid/Fearless from way back (60's-70's)

[Volkodav]

They are neat, reminds me of a scaled-up HMS Intrepid/Fearless from way back (60's-70's)

Or a shrunken Tarawa / Wasp.  We get ARGs docking at my end of the world a couple of times a year, a Wasp and a Harpers Ferry / Whidbey Island , yet to see a San Antonio or the escorting CG / DDGs yet.

I am of the belief that we do need carriers in the RAN but as or government can't yet make the mental leap that you need more than 6 submarines total if you want more than 3 available for deployment it and many other critical capability choices are not going to happen.  I mean we are using aluminium hulled inshore patrol boats as ocean going OPVs and wondering why they are breaking!

[GTX_Admin]

I am of the belief that we do need carriers in the RAN but as or government can't yet make the mental leap that you need more than 6 submarines total if you want more than 3 available for deployment

The RAN (indeed the ADF) is only so large (RAN ~14000, ADF ~57000) so unless crewing numbers for such platforms drastically reduce it is pointless calling for more.  As it is though, having two modern LHDs, 12 subs in the future (though I wonder how they will crew them given we have historically had a lot of trouble crewing the 6 Collins class) + multiple other new platforms isn't too bad an effort.  I think you will find that even if there was a Govt wanting to go out and acquire a major fixed wing CV capability, they would find the Defence Force chiefs advising against it and also would struggle with the before mentioned crewing issue.

BTW, whilst the Canberra class LHDs might not be as sexy as a conventional CV, I believe you will find that they are far more useful for the type of operations the ADF is expected to get involved with in the future.  They are designed to allow for a fully integrated Navy/Army task force (essentially an Australian 'Marines' capability if you like), have excellent C³ capability, have an extensive medical facilities and the ability to support collation style operations.  Consider the following three types of ops that the ships are considered for:

• East Timor style scenario - having a single Canberra class sitting off the coast and offering a command base, extensive medical support, significant logistics support and if need be, low-intensity combat support with Tiger helicopters would be extremely useful
• Major Humanitarian/disaster scenario - say in the aftermath of something like Cyclone Tracey or perhaps the Boxing Day Tsunami - having a single Canberra class sitting off the coast and offering a command base, extensive medical support and significant logistics support as well as a staging point/base of operations for multiple forces
• Contribution to a Coalition Task Force - say something like a Gulf War or perhaps even a Falklands War or Sierra Leone style intervention - yet again having a Canberra class involved provides a very useful capability and could easily allow for other partners with STOVL capable aircraft (F-35Bs or AV-8Bs) to use the ship as an additional launch/recovery platform.

I would not therefore write them off just because they don't appear like traditional aircraft carriers.

[Volkodav]

I am not writing them off and I do agree with what you have written.  The issue is more one of failing to maintain what we had as it is always far more difficult to rebuild or build from scratch than it is to maintain or enhance something that still exists.  Crewing requirements for the RANs fleet have dramatically reduced of the decades with a destroyers crew 333 dropping to 200 odd a frigate from 250 to 163-180, submarines from67 to 45 (back up to 55 for trainees now), carrier 1300 to zero, and a reduction in hull numbers as well.  Add it all up and we have between a half and a third the sea going berths we had 20 or 30 years ago. 

The issue in part is lack of trained crews which is due also in part to the lack of sea going platforms.  The ships we have are needed at sea because there are not enough of them, this leaves insufficient scope to train and work up crews which means over time there are insufficient crews to send the ships we do have where they need to go.  A classic downward spiral, I saw it on subs, then majors, now on PBs.

A new fixed wing FAA for the RAN is probably unobtainable as the original was only possible due too a large number of trained commonwealth personnel being available following WWII and the perceived need for the capability.

On the other hand had the FAA been maintained or expanded following the experiences of Korea things could have been very different, i.e. two carrier groups and maintenance of the existing force of escorts rather than the cuts that occurred instead.  Multiple opportunities to update, expand or even just maintain the FAA were ignored or rejected through the 50s 60s and 70s before the final decision in the 80s, just as the RN demonstrated the effectiveness and capability of the very platform the RAN was to have acquired.

Now something like japans Hyuga with a crew of around 360 (about that of 2 FFGs) could be achievable and would add far more capability than two new FFGs.  Assuming the government elects to life extend some of the FFGs instead of retiring them when the Hobart class DDGs come on line then a couple of helicopter carriers could be achievable long term.  Cross deck with the USMC and RN, RAAF acquires F-35B.......

[Volkodav]

I do vaguely remember reading or seeing something very early in the JP2048 selection, that led to the Canberra Class LHDs, mentioning or showing the Cavour as a contender. 

Now that would have been something, it met all the listed requirements outlined in the white paper and if supported by a suitable logistics ship and Landing Craft Heavy (LCH) replacement could have provided far more capability than the actual project has.  Another contender was the San Antonio LPD, it did not meet the requirement for simultaneous helicopter operations but imagine an pair of Cavours supported by or supporting a pair of San Antonios backed up by a number of smaller LPDs or LSDs to replace the LCHs.  Manning wise doable, hull numbers, doable, capability through the roof, good bang for your buck. 

It could be argued that is AV-8B+  / Sea Harrier F/A2 plus AEW is better at air defence than an AWD and that F-35B is better still.  Two Cavour plus 6 modernised FFGs and 8 ASMD ANZACs could have been cheaper and more effective than the 3 AWDs and 2 LHDs. Mmmm.... food for alt RAN thought.....$$$ v man power v available options.

[Weaver]

Funnily enough, I've just been re-reading my book about the Invincibles and wondering what might have happened had the Australian Government actually been keen on maintaining it's carrier force instead of looking for an excuse to get rid of it. There's no way the UK was going to part with Invincible after the Falklands, but what might have been possible was to commission a fourth CVL, with either the RAN taking the fourth one or the RN taking it and then the RAN having Invincible second-hand. In the meantime, the RAN could start taking delivery of Sea Harriers, and either operate them from a re-commissioned Melbourne or a borrowed Hermes until the "new" CVL was available.

I'm sure the RAN wouldn't want to take on Sea Dart for the sake of one ship, and it would probably also be unwise to start mucking about with the CVL design too much, even if the RAN was taking the fourth ship off the drawing board. I'd say that with just one carrier but nine DDG/FFGs in prospect (3 x Perths plus 6 x Adelaides), they'd want minimal weapons and maximum aircraft, so remove/omit Sea Dart and fit two Phalanx on the former Type 909 radar platforms. The front one would probably have to be left the same shape for the gun's radar to clear the bridge on full elevation, but the rear superstructure could probably be shortened to just a slim tower behind the aft funnel with the gun on top of it.

And yes, I have been looking at an Illustrious model, and also thinking how good a SHAR would look in RAN Skyhawk colours...

[Volkodav]

One possibility I was told about was VSEL builds a fourth Invincible for Australia and Australia builds a pair of LSLs for the RFA in a barter deal, each for a hot line as it were.

The other thought that comes to mind is the RAN buys one or two carrier versions of Ocean, i.e. the simpler cheaper diesel powered version of the Invincible but with full SHAR capability rather than the Commando carrier specific outfit.

The ideal in the whiffverse is that the UK realising that the Hermes was a better size ship for the job at hand designs and builds a class of new larger ships and then sells Invincibles to Australia, India and ?? Chile?? Brazil???.

[GTX_Admin]

Give me a chance to find it but I have a fictional history somewhere based upon Australia having got the Invincible.

[Volkodav]

Give me a chance to find it but I have a fictional history somewhere based upon Australia having got the Invincible.

I'm toying with an idea at the moment of New Zealand acquiring carriers late WWII and maintaining them instead of cruisers through at least the 60s but possibly to modern day depending what they got and when.

My thinking was NZ was in real life a major contributor to the British Pacific Fleet but in this wiffverse the UK acknowledges this through the hot transfer of one or possibly two carriers, maybe escort carriers but preferably Colossus Class CVLs to the RNZN.  NZ retains the ships post war in place of the three Dido class cruisers they received in real life with the ship(s), along with the Corsairs and Avengers going on to serve with distinction in Korea.  Impressed with the utility and flexibility of the carriers NZ decides to retain the capability at two strike carriers through acquisition of more modern and capable vessels (modernised Hermes) during the late 50s early 60s with the RNZN FAA becoming NZ primary air combat force with the RNZAF giving up its fighters and bombers while retaining its MPA and transport assets.  The thinking behind this was basically geography, RNZAF fighters and bombers couldn't actually reach anywhere without a forward base, the RNZNs carriers were a forward base and the RNZN NAS were the home bases for the training and depot squadrons.

In moving to carriers the RNZN moves away from cruisers and embraces destroyers and fast frigates, each carrier having an escort of a destroyer and a pair of frigates.  NZ maintains a very Empire centric slant to its equipment, selecting Daring class destroyers and Type 15 then Type 12 frigates, the exception being unable to afford the new County Class DLGs to escort the new carriers in the 60s NZ instead opts to upgrade their Darings with Tartar.  They replace their Corsairs and Avengers with Seahawks and Gannets which in turn are replaced with Skyhawks, Trackers and Tracers.  Following the Falklands the RNZN opts to replace the Skyhawks with Sea Harrier F/A2 and the Trackers with a mix of Sea Kings (including some AEW 7) and Orions (for the RNZAF).

[Volkodav]

How about instead of converting Albion and Bulwark into Commando Carriers the RN instead upgrades them and Centaur to the same standard as Hermes?  Either RR Avon Tiger or Super Tiger (J79) selected as replacement for Seahawks and Sea Venoms to serve on Hermes Class CVLs and Victorious.  Buccaneers (or Skywarriors) concentrated on Eagle and Ark Royal.

Convert Unicorn, Implacable, Indefatigable and /or Indomitable into Commando Carriers instead?  Armoured decks (except Unicorn), 4.5" guns (4" Unicorn), double hangers (space for troop decks) too expensive to update for modern aircraft.  Karman Sea Sprite is selected as Commando Assault Helicopter in transport, utility, support and attack versions.

Remaining Colossus Class CVLs are converted into ASW Helicopter Carriers with a pair of Mk11 or 13 GMLS fitted to provide air defence.  Possibly reboilered to increase speed to 27/8kt. ASW group leaders for ASW frigates.

All traditional gun cruisers retired to save manpower and reduce operating costs.  Super Daring with Tartar (Mk13) developed instead of Counties, Mk22 GMLS (16 Tartars instead of 40 in Mk13) armed version of Type 12 developed.  Sea Dart developed but sized to fit Mk13/22/26 GMLS.

[GTX_Admin]

I'm toying with an idea at the moment of New Zealand acquiring carriers late WWII and maintaining them instead of cruisers through at least the 60s but possibly to modern day depending what they got and when.

Only problem with NZ having carriers is that to crew them you would almost empty the islands...

[Volkodav]

I'm toying with an idea at the moment of New Zealand acquiring carriers late WWII and maintaining them instead of cruisers through at least the 60s but possibly to modern day depending what they got and when.

Only problem with NZ having carriers is that to crew them you would almost empty the islands...

Start with repatriating them from Bondi 

[Weaver]

the exception being unable to afford the new County Class DLGs to escort the new carriers in the 60s NZ instead opts to upgrade their Darings with Tartar. 

Like this, you mean....

[Weaver]

Okay, here's a little tale: the Royal Canadian Navy plays it British.

1. I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, or an improvement on reality, it's just an interesting one that generates plenty of easy what if modelling opportunities while keeping at least within sight of realistic budgets.

2. I have no real handle on RCN naming policy, so feel free to suggest better alternatives.

3. British export aircraft would probably have Mark Numbers rather than UK letter codes, but I've used the latter to make the equipment standard clear.


1950s

HMCS Bonaventure commissions with a mixed strike/ASW air group as follows:

Air Group (all new)
Fighter/bomber : Sea Hawk
All-weather fighter : Sea Venom
ASW : Gannet AS.1
SAR/plane guard : Whirlwind


1960s

The decision is made that Bonaventure's future role will be as a North Atlantic ASW helo carrier with a small fighter detachment for scaring off Bears. There's some debate about whether to keep the Sea Hawks (fewer aircrew) or the Sea Venoms (radar) but the latter's all-weather capability wins. Bonnie serves in this configuration until 1971, by which time the Sea Venoms are looking a bit desperate.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Venom (refurbished, with Sidewinder capability)
AEW : Gannet AEW.3 (new)
ASW/SAR : Wessex HAS.1 (new)


1970s

Canada snaps up the option to buy HMS Centaur when she decommissions from the RN in 1966. A re-fit to a similar standard to HMS Hermes takes five years, at which point she commissions as HMCS Canada, replacing Bonaventure. A notable feature of the design is two Canadian Sea Sparrow launchers which extend from deck houses on the aft sponsons.

Her role is still primarily ASW so the air group is mostly new Westland Sea Kings, and since the FAA is disposing of it's Sea Vixens, the RCN is able to buy half of the FAA fleet as it's "Bear-scarers" at fire-sale prices. Most of these are RTP'd for spares to support an active fleet of about 18 aircraft, which is far more than Canada ever carries at one time. However there are no Red Tops AAMs available for them since the UK is keeping them all for the Lightning force, so the 18 active Sea Vixens are refitted by Canadair with AN/APQ-120 (F-4E) radars, and Sparrow/Sidewinder capability.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Vixen (refurbished, with Sparrow/Sidewinder capability)
AEW : Gannet AEW.3 (refurbished)
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.2 (new)


1980s

Although not initially impressed with the Harrier carrier concept, the Falklands War makes believers of the RCN. Unfortunately, the only immediately available Harrier carrier, HMS Invincible, is already spoken for by the RAN and the RN isn't going to pay for a fifth ship to make HMS Illustrious available any time soon. The RCN therefore elects to re-fit Canada with a ski-jump along the same lines as Hermes, as a stop-gap while a new vessel is bought. In this form, she re-enters service in about 1984.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Harrier FRS.1 (new)
AEW : Sea King AEW.5 (new)
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.5 (re-built from HAS.2s)


1990s

With no option of getting a new, or at least young, Harrier carrier from Britain in an acceptable time-frame, the RCN turns to America and orders a Gibbs & Cox Sea Control Ship in the mid-'80s, which is similar in design to Spain's Principe de Asturias but slightly larger. Armament is 2 x 8-cell Mk.48 VLS Sea Sparrow launchers and 4 x Vulcan Phalanx guns. With the end of the Cold War, there's much debate about cancelling the project, but she eventually commissions as HMCS Rainbow, although any hope of buying new Sea Harrier F/A.2s for her is dashed by budget cuts.

Air Group
All-weather fighter : Sea Harrier FRS.1 (refurbished with FAA mods)
AEW : Sea King AEW.5
ASW/SAR : Sea King HAS.6 (re-built from HAS.5s)


2000s

Rather than give them a life extension, Rainbow's Sea Harriers are retired in 2005 to save money and sold to India, Rainbow then becoming a pure helo carrier. Current plans are to follow the international fashion and replace her with a 20-knot, multi-purpose LPHA with a docking well, full-length  flight-deck and ski-jump for optional F-35s, however these plans are currently stalled in budget/program/political issues.

[Volkodav]

the exception being unable to afford the new County Class DLGs to escort the new carriers in the 60s NZ instead opts to upgrade their Darings with Tartar. 

Like this, you mean....

 :)

[Volkodav]

Love the Centaurs, they appear to have been almost the idea size to serve for decades after WWII, too bad there weren't more of them.  As I understand only the four completed ships were actually laid down but two of the cancelled four may have been as well but broken up on the slips on cancellation.

A whiff could be with the RAN manning the Implacables it was realised that they were to expensive and specialised for the RAN to operate post war as well as the fact that the RN wanted them back to retain and modernise them.  Colossus and Majestics were an option but in comparison to the fleet carriers of the BPF they were very limited.  Accordingly Australia negotiated the exchange, post war for three 1943 CVLs to replace the pair of improved armoured fleet carriers.  As such work continued on the entire class of eight ships at slow time with the commissioning / exchange being planned for 1948, 1950 and 1952 while the remaining ships were now to be completed for the RN to cover the modernisations of the six armoured fleet carriers.

Post was priorities saw the RN take precedence delaying the RANs new ships which saw the Implacables deployed to Korea.  This in tern lead to a very definite change of plans with the RAN Centaurs being delayed further and reordered as Hermes class modernised CVLs to operate fast jets.  To cover the delay the Implacables received an interim refit to operate jets, already able to operate Sea Vampires they also started flying Sea Venoms, Sea Hawks and Gannets (some deck park only due to hanger height issues.  As the Hermes were delayed again the RAN leased 50 F-11 Tigers from the USN to repace the Seahawks.  So impressed were the RAN with the Tigers they requested CAC, then working on an AVON Fury for the RAAF, to develop an improved radar equipped version of the Tiger to replace the Sea Venom.  CAC offered an AVON powered ADEN and Firstreak armed Ferranti Airpass equipped version that was a contemporary to the F11F-1F Super Tiger.  This successful type was ordered for both the Impacables and the Hermes, leading to the cancelation of orders for the Supermarine Scimitar.

The Hermes Class CVLs were delivered in 1960, 1962 and 1964 with US / Australian sourced air groups consisting of CAC Avon Tigers, CAC F-1 Avon Furies, Trackers, Tracers and Wessex ASW Helos.  This capable force effectively countered the threat of Indonesia moving to the Communist sphere on influence, vising tensions in Indo China, and Britains shaky commitment easy of Suez.  The ships served with regular modernisations through until the late 80s early 90s when they were converted to STOVL carriers to support air groups of F/A2 Sea Harriers and Harriers GR5/7/9 as well as Sea king ASW and AEW helicopter to replace the aging Tigers and Furies.  The cariers continued in servie through the 90s and 2000s to be replaced by a trio of QECs post 2015 with the Harriers to serve until the delivery of the F-35B around 2020.

By the time the Hermes were delivered the RN had no interest in the return of the Implacables and as such they were offered to the RAN as scrap value.  The RAN initially planed to use then as training and transport ships but with the detraining international situation decided to convert both into Commando Carriers.  They were renamed HMAS Gallipoli and HMAS Tobruk, catapults and arrester gear were removed, the lower hanger was converted into accommodation and vehicle decks and the upper hanger retained for the selected Karman Tomahawk Attack Helicopters as well as the Sprite Utility Assault version.  Later CH-53D Stallions were ordered for heavy lift and carried in the deck park only.  The ships served until the early 90s when they were replaced by a pair of US wasp Class LHDs.

 

[GTX_Admin]

Swords into plowshares (luxury ones!) anyone:




Details

[Volkodav]

I like it, now if only my dad had been a mining magnate who left me title to some of the richest ore deposits in the world and then Chinese demand went through the roof I could have bought Lusty and done it up as a week ender.

[Volkodav]

Actually heres a novel idea with the Australian PM talking about buying F-35Bs and there being questions on the suitability of the Australian spec LHDs to operate them maybe Australia could buy Lusty from the UK.  Use it initially as ASW and MCM helo carrier in support of the LHDs but then ramp up and use it as a CVL once the F-35B becomes available.

[GTX_Admin]

Chinese CVN…

[Volkodav]

Looks like a Ford to me 

[Volkodav]

How about a reverse Lend / Lease where the UK completed most of the 1942 CVLs as promptly and transfered them to the USN to form the core of a dozen ASW groups.  Larger and easier to modernise than the US CVLs, smaller and less expensive to operate than the Essex class they could have been kept in service for decades and could have eventually been replaced with a new US designed class.

The UK and British Commonwealth would have had to build additional ships to replace those transferred to the US leading to the completion of all of the Centaur and Audacious class carriers as well as the modernisation of more Armoured Fleet Carriers.  The Centaurs and modernised armoured fleets would be transferred to those nations who would otherwise have bought Colossus or Majestic class CVLs, either as Centaurs, Hermes or Fast Hermes Type (modernised Armoured Fleets).

UK with only 4 Audacious class ships would have had to order new carriers in the mid 50s to build / retain numbers at 5 hulls, this design would have continued in production, perhaps into the CVA01, instead of modernising the Audacious class further. 

[GTX_Admin]

Two variants of the Queen Elizabeth class:



Top is "as being built" and with ski jump and F-35Bs
Bottom is alternate CATOBAR variant with catapults and F-35Cs

[dy031101]

Looks like a Ford to me 

You can't always get away from established patterns. 

[kitnut617]

What I find extraordinary with the QE Class, is they're not making it at least arrester hook capable.  For such a large ship (not including the USN) I can't see the logic ---  It should be able to recover aircraft which aren't STOVL don't you think ? ----