Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 186279 times)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2013, 09:03:20 AM »
Has there ever been a trainable box launcher proposed/trialed for Tartar/Standard missiles?

(Wanting to find out if what I saw at Shipbucket is indeed one of those "never-built" designs......)

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The "Through Deck Cruisers" (Invincibles) and the abortive CVA-01 were both designed with their own defensive weaponry, but they add to the firepower of their own properly-armed and -equipped escorts.

There was a fixed box launcher for Standard. It's generally described as being for Standard ARM, enabling the latter to be used as an interim AShM pending avialability of Harpoon, but I think I'm right in saying that some users (Taiwan?) have used it for SAM rounds as well.

It's often assumed that the "through-deck cruiser" moniker for the Invincibles was a subterfuge to get carriers back in the RN "through the back door", but this is myth. The Invincible design started out as an escort cruiser for CVA-01 with SAMs, half-a dozen ASW helos and no SHARs. It then became a more carrier-like through-deck design when the helo complement was increased to a dozen. SHARs only came later, after the design had been pretty much fixed, and the Sea Dart was kept because of doubts about the latter's real air-defence capability: it was seen as good for "scaring off the Bears" and little else in the mid 1970s.

Two significant things about the Invincible's Sea Darts are that a) they were eventually removed to make way for more efficient aviation facilities and b) despite having them, an Invincible never went anywhere without an escorting Type 42 destroyer.

The provision of Sea Dart on CVA-01 is generally regarded as one of the design's weak features these days, since it cost a lot of deck and hangar space and set up a potentially very nasty accident if a landing aircraft came in slightly too low. The design originally had Ikara as well, but that was dropped to save space and cost and my bet is that had the CVA-01 continued, Sea Dart would have been dropped in subsequent design iterations also, for similar reasons. It was probably there in the first place as a result of influence from the USA since the three Kitty Hawk class super-carriers were originally built with twin Terrier launchers, but even on these enormous ships the volume cost was considered excessive and they were quickly removed and replaced with Sea Sparrow.
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2013, 09:10:08 AM »
Has there ever been a trainable box launcher proposed/trialed for Tartar/Standard missiles?

Trainable, not that I know of.  Box launcher yes!  Look at the Taiwanese rebuilt Sumner/Gearing DDs.  They added about 10 Standards in single shot boxes when they modernized them for the 1990's.  Kept those DDs going until the early 2000s  :o
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2013, 09:31:36 AM »
There was a fixed box launcher for Standard. It's generally described as being for Standard ARM, enabling the latter to be used as an interim AShM pending avialability of Harpoon, but I think I'm right in saying that some users (Taiwan?) have used it for SAM rounds as well.
Trainable, not that I know of.  Box launcher yes!  Look at the Taiwanese rebuilt Sumner/Gearing DDs.  They added about 10 Standards in single shot boxes when they modernized them for the 1990's.  Kept those DDs going until the early 2000s  :o

Both Taiwan and Iran have used fixed launchers, albeit in different forms.  The ones used by Taiwan (selected Gearings only; Allen Sumners were all rebuilt into general-purpose warships) look like regular anti-ship missile launchers whereas the one used by Iran looks rather similar in terms of operation to the Tomahawk ABL.

I just figured that if a single, sufficiently-sized spot is available on a combatant, a trainable launcher might beat placing fixed launchers throughout the ship?

========================================================================

Even CVA-01 with its Sea Dart launcher was never meant to leave home without a Type 82 DDG by her side.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 09:33:48 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2013, 09:44:53 AM »
Sufficient room for a trainable launcher and sufficient reserve weight are two totally different things.  Fixed launchers are far simpler and light vs trainable versions.  Just saying  :)

That box launcher Weaver is talking about was mounted on some of the Asheville PGs prior to Harpoon which, I'm not even sure they ever received.  They elevated similar to an ABL and fired towards the bow with a 2nd box mounted forward with one reload per launcher.

I did see a concept sketch of a fixed box launcher mount (20 something rounds) for carriers that held Phoenix missiles re-purposed to a SAM role.  Don't think it ever left paper though.

Did the Taiwanese ever modify the ASROC launchers on their FF-1052s to fire Standards?  I want to say I read that somewhere but I can't remember.  I know the USN modified some to fire Harpoons but I think that was all.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2013, 09:59:40 AM »
Did the Taiwanese ever modify the ASROC launchers on their FF-1052s to fire Standards?  I want to say I read that somewhere but I can't remember.  I know the USN modified some to fire Harpoons but I think that was all.

The ASROC launchers in ROCN service are also capable of only ASROC and (FF-1052 class) Harppons.  They recycled the box launchers from the upgraded Gearing class to give their Knox class frigates area air defense capability.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2013, 02:26:16 PM »
Quite like the G91, hadn't thought of it to be honest, I was just going on there being carrier versions proposed for the Gnat and F-5 rather than any bias for or against any aircraft in particular.

Thinking on it these ships would be more a replacement for the Pre WWI Armoured Cruisers and Battle Cruisers than the treaty cruisers of between the wars and WWII.  Large powerful ships able project power a long was from home without the need to deploy a battle fleet.  More the centre of a "Fleet Unit" rather than a part of a battle squadron or fleet.   The original Fleet Unit roughly consisted of a single 2nd or 3rd rate capital ship supported by a number of fleet cruisers, a squadron of destroyers, another of submarines and a support ship.  When the capital ship is a carrier the aircraft can replace many of the ships, i.e. an ASW helo station is equivalent to a screening destroyer or frigate, a flight of attack aircraft replaces your destroyer squadron in the anti surface role and for WWII onwards an AEW aircraft station replaces your radar picket cruiser / destroyer.  A fleet unit built around a small fast carrier could be parred back to the carrier, one or two cruisers, one or two destroyers and a couple of frigates.

Agree on the speed requirements, the RN CVLs were too slow and the USN CVLs, while they had the requisite speed, were not really capable as carriers in the post war period.  New ships would be needed, similar in size to the RN 1942 CVLs but built to naval scantlings and faster. 

I am a bit all over the place with this, just churning through ideas but the end result is an evolution of small multi role carriers suitable for secondary deployments with large navies and forming the core of small to medium navies.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2013, 06:04:05 PM »
Effectively, they're 1950s versions of the 1970s Sea Control Ship idea, i.e. a secondary, deck-multiplying asset for the USN but a primary for somewhere like Spain or Italy.

The problem with replacing ships with aircraft, certainly in the 1950s and until very recently, is that the latter are fine as long as they're working, flying, in the right place and still in one piece.

1. Aircraft go unservicable, the more so the longer they keep flying high intensity ops, and even the best carriers have limited abilities to repair them. Warships are relatively more reliable and durable, so the escort's guns, missiles and depth charges will still be working long after most of the aircraft have become hangar queens.

2. Until relatively recently, air ops could be shut down completely by weather conditions, and even if they were flying, their effectiveness was severely reduced by night or bad weather. The AAW escort is still ten miles up-threat, even in the worst weather.

3. Once airborne, aircraft are no longer "tied" to the carrier, and can be decoyed, mislead or chased away. The weapons on the escort ships will always be there because they can't go anywhere else.

4. Aircraft crash and get shot down. It's not unknown for carriers to be forced to withdrawn from combat simply because they don't have a viable force left. Again, on the day after you've reached this point, you still need to defend your force, which you can only do with the escorts because they're all that's left.

All of these factors are much more significant the smaller the carrier is, because each individual aircraft represents a greater percentage of the ships totla air group. For instance, if two USN Hornets collided and crashed in bad weather it'd be tragic, but it would only reduce the super-carrier's offensive/defensive air power by just over 4% (assuming she has 48 x Hornets). By contrast, when two of HMS Hermes' SHARs collided and crashed in bad weather during the Falklands war, it reduced the carrier's air power by nearly 17% purely because she only had 12 to begin with.

You idea isn't a bad one, it just needs to recognise the neccessity for escort ships. If you look at small carriers task groups fielded by any nation, they almost inevitably consist of the carrier, two or three escorts, and a supply ship. By the way, the latter is not merely a logistics asset, at least in the RN. The latter's biggest replen ships can operate up the FIVE Merlins, and provide greater maintenance support for them than the frigates, so putting say, a Fort Victoria in a force with Type 23 frigates actually increased the combat effectiveness/persistance of the latter.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 06:11:07 PM by Weaver »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
Its an evolving idea but yes the end result is a more powerful, flexible SCS, evolved from a series of ships starting with war built CVLs and maybe smaller fleet carriers (think armoured fleet carriers).

As Tartar was initially seen as a point defence weapon it would still be a good fit on these ships, as would 3"guns 50 cal to start then 70 cal.  Basically aim to embark a useful number of good enough aircraft rather than too few of the best available.  Gnats, F-5s, G91s, A-4s etc rather than Phantoms and Buccaneers or Intruders, leave the big. complex aircraft for the big carriers.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2013, 12:58:24 AM »
My inclination would be to put a Seacat and a director on each aft sponson and a British 3" 70-cal Mk.6 on each forward one, with a single director above the bridge (two if you can find room). Think of a Clemenceau layout, but with the front sponsons shorter and the aft ones narrower. The guns should have enough room to rotate 180 deg to present their backs to a heavy sea, possibly aided by a retractable spray shield on the front of the sponsons.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2013, 09:18:40 AM »
The recent discussion reminds me of this.

A lot of items need to be "back-dated", but I suppose the idea is similar.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2013, 09:21:51 PM »
Jumping forward in time I actually quite like the VT Harrier Carrier concept of 1976.  6000ton hull based on the Type 21 frigate with GT generators and electric propulsion, designed to embark 8 Harriers and 2 helos (Seakings) in the hanger so assume 12 and 4 respectively with deck park.  Insert one of them into your escort group with an air defence DDG or DLG, an ASW FFG or two and a fast tanker with large hanger helo deep maintenance facilities and you would be cooking with gas.

You Could easily go bigger, say 8000 or 10000 tons to provide extra speed and aircraft capacity say base it on a DLG instead of a FF. 

Back in the late 80s I did a stack of sketches (all gone now) of small carriers based roughly on the VT Harrier Carrier and Garibaldi, ranging from 150 to 200m in length.  They had Fore and Aft, Port and STBD sponsons each with a medium calibre gun (3" to 5") and a CIWS (usually Goalkeeper) occasionally Seawolf as well.  Mk 26 / Sea Dart or Mk 41 (or VLS Seawolf) installed fore and aft the island superstructure as per Garibaldi and directors and radars surmounting the bridge.

I even developed a back story which, if I remember correctly, when something along the lines of :
Post Falklands the UK realised that more, not fewer, carriers were required.  This led not only to the retention of HMS Invincible but the design of the DLG(V), an evolved VT Harrier Carrier of 8000tons and 180m.  It was design specifically to embark a Squadron of Sea Harrier FRS 2s and a Sea King AEW flight and to serve in a command and control role for destroyers and frigates.  The general idea was each lead a group consisting of a Batch 3 Type 42 a Batch III Type 22 and a pair of Type 23s.

That was the general jist of it, not too deep I know but I was in my teens back then.

Offline jcf

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: October 26, 2013, 05:18:48 AM »
SARO/Westlands design from 1960.



... look like Scimitars on deck and in the hangar.

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: October 26, 2013, 05:23:22 AM »
Wow!
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2013, 04:39:44 AM »
Does anyone know if there is a kit of the aircraft carrier Príncipe de Asturias (see below) available?



This rumour has me thinking...
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2013, 04:50:48 AM »
Well, there was a bit a while back about S. Korea wanting aircraft carriers, I could see them wanting to buy her, too.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2014, 04:55:37 AM »
Some nice photos of INS Vikramaditya:




« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 04:57:36 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2014, 02:47:27 AM »
Random idea:  Taiwan gets an aircraft carrier - say something in the class of a Harrier carrier or Canberra class?  could certainly have interesting implications re mainland China...
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2014, 06:23:36 AM »
After multiple instances of recollecting past discussion I had elsewhere only to have to weed out badly-worded (on my part) terms, this is the final version of my initial response to GTX's idea......

Random idea:  Taiwan gets an aircraft carrier - say something in the class of a Harrier carrier or Canberra class?

Europe would have been the only likely source of assistance in that regard, and it'd have to start early, when domestic political opposition was relatively powerless.

Maybe an ex-RN commando carrier to start with?

Expect the ROCN to arm that commando carrier to the teeth against corvettes and below, based on their experience holding the line against the PLAN in the '50s and becoming a trend that would likely continue for its sister and/or successor vessel.

In the post-Chiang era it would be even less likely that a dedicated aircraft carrier, as in without capability for another role, would look good in the eyes of the Legislative Yuan.  How the successor ship is going to look like would have depended on that other role the ROCN would officially request the carrier for.  They might want something that can contribute to defense of shipping lane vital to Taiwan (a cruiser), they might realize that they (as they do in real-life) desperately need logistics vessels (a supply ship), or they might decide not to outsource troop transportation to and from outlying islands to civilian companies (an assault carrier or even just a RO-RO transport with flight deck and skijump).

could certainly have interesting implications re mainland China...

Could have some implications in South China Sea and Diaoyutai Islands area as well, where it's been every country for themselves in both places.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2014, 06:35:26 AM »
Taiwan buys HMS Illustrious, Principe de Asturias, or one of the laid up Tarawas?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2014, 06:56:29 AM »
Actually another thought comes to mind.  Realising that the opening salvo in any war with the mainland would result in the destruction of all their military airbases Taiwan takes the decision to base the majority of their airpower and a substantial part of their high end offensive land forces off shore in carrier battle groups, amphibious groups and sea bases, supplemented by as many high end SSGs as they can lay their hands on.  What remains on Taiwan is protected by a multi tier defensive missile shield bought from Israel and offensive, retaliatory systems including dozens of land based AGS (155mm gun mounts used on DDG 1000), and thousands of converted ER Standard ARMs to attack PRCs land based radars.  Everything on the islands would be hardened to survive a first strike and retaliate, while the CBGs would launch pin point strikes against targets of opportunity in the PRC.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2014, 08:23:56 AM »
Actually another thought comes to mind.  Realising that the opening salvo in any war with the mainland would result in the destruction of all their military airbases Taiwan takes the decision to base the majority of their airpower and a substantial part of their high end offensive land forces off shore in carrier battle groups, amphibious groups and sea bases, supplemented by as many high end SSGs as they can lay their hands on.  What remains on Taiwan is protected by a multi tier defensive missile shield bought from Israel and offensive, retaliatory systems including dozens of land based AGS (155mm gun mounts used on DDG 1000), and thousands of converted ER Standard ARMs to attack PRCs land based radars.  Everything on the islands would be hardened to survive a first strike and retaliate, while the CBGs would launch pin point strikes against targets of opportunity in the PRC.

The carriers would perhaps be more like aircraft-carrying missile cruisers, with indigenous cruise missiles (of both land attack and anti-ship varieties) being the primary offensive means of the battle groups; the Harriers are allocated to fleet air defense duties.

One question would be a successor carrier fighter to the Harriers.  The US might still not have been thrilled at the idea of selling the F-35B or assisting the ROCN in transitioning to STOBAR unless some evidence is there suggesting that if they don't make that money, someone else will.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:29:56 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2014, 09:20:30 AM »
Or China becomes more belligerent and the US, South Korea and Japan see a strong Taiwan as being in their interests.  F-35B and or C here we come.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2014, 11:26:21 AM »
I was wondering if there could be any advantage to be taken of the Soviet Union's dissolution before Russia hooked up with the PRC again; as in Taiwanese descendant of Yak-41 v.s. J-11 sort of thing......  ;D
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: February 13, 2014, 11:54:45 AM »
Depends were you set the start date for the plan, if it was in the mid 80s then there is nothing stopping Taiwan from snapping up ex soviet goodies over the next decade.  Freestyles would be interesting and that could make Taiwan a possible customer for Invincible and Ark Royal when they became available later.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: February 13, 2014, 11:58:10 AM »
Actually on a completely different tack does anyone have any information on the modified LHA design / concept offered to the RAN as a replacement HMAS Melbourne during the 70s?  How different was it to a Tarawa or Wasp, i.e. did it still have a well dock and vehicle stowage or was it a pure carrier that just used the same hull form and similar systems?