Author Topic: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3  (Read 16185 times)

Offline mikejapan

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1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« on: November 17, 2012, 12:30:35 PM »
It's been a long time everyone.
Sorry i've been busy building an SU-35UB with the Arctic Camo from the Flanker E.
I'll post pics later.
Anyways i'm planning on getting an F-15A or C.
The SMT+ is the same in measurements to the basic plane so it's good.
I plan on going with the GRDF blue camo instead of Dision's all Black scheme.
Here's the plane itself for reference.

It won't be too long!

See ya!

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 03:22:36 PM »
 :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 10:57:42 AM »
Hey, Mike, didn't we talk Sixes and 318th FIS stuff over at ARC? Interesting project you have going... and a little weird having two "canard Eagle" projects on the site at once. :)

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 02:02:33 PM »
Oh yeah. How's everything going Diamondback!
Anyways yes I did notice the other F-15 but you i've been wanting to build an F-15SMT+ for years.
It was just the matter of me getting all the "real" projects out of the way.
So now I can finally move on to this plane.

UPDATE
I will be getting the 1/48 Revell F-15E. Cheaper and very nice.
Maybe I can make the conformals detachable but i'm too keen on that yet.
Since the F-15SMT+ already weighs 81,000lbs. It was built for longer patrol missions and faster intercept role. I'm afraid of putting on the conformals.
From the looks of it, it uses General Electric motors so i'll go with those.
Also that COFFIN system doesn't look complex compared to the SU-37R i've seen modeled.

Thanks for reading!
Michael

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 02:11:06 PM »
Weird, meaning in a good way... maybe you'll find some ideas from Skywarp and Thundercracker you could use--elmayerle thinks F100/F110 cores may be good for around 40K# thrust at final dev (the current uprate demonstrators are at 32500, and prod models are 29K), so that may help offset your weight gain, unless the 81K is gross weight--which is the same gross as a standard Strike Eagle, and I figure the SE(Special) could gross noticeably heavier. (I once built a spreadsheet, and if available power and MTOW are directly proportional and if a 50K# uprated F135 woulda fit, a so-powered F-15 could launch heavier than a B-29 in theory.)

Also, dunno how much the canards and canted tails help, but at 81K gross a standard Mudhen NEEDS the extra lift from the CFT's to get up off the ground, IIRC...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 02:16:53 PM by Diamondback »

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 02:41:38 PM »
The CFT's provide lift??? I've never heard of that.
For this specific plane they pretty much stuck with the basic design.
All they added were canards which are completely built from scratch. Not from an F/A-18 and the engines were supposedly upgraded to provide the 1382mph advantage over the standard F-15E Strike Eagle to help in interception and long range penetration duties.
I'm sticking with the standard straight vertical fins. Plus the reason why it's so heavy is most likely reinforcement plates and etc and the MUCH larger fuel capacity.
It does possess thrust vectoring but only to a certain degree. Not as much as an SU-35BM.

Michael

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 03:52:21 PM »
And, depending whose numbers you believe, they're either negligible or even NEGATIVE drag over bare side. (Sorta like how it's counterintuitive but the fatter "teardrop" Hindenburg and Graf II were noticeably lower-drag than the "tube" earlier Zeppelins.) There ain't a lot of room wasted inside, as I recall--I'm having trouble finding a ground-accessible and still ejection-friendly spot to place a footlocker-size computer core. (There are a lot of helpful diagrams re structures over at F-15E.info you might find worthy of perusal.) Plus, getting up to 1382... well, 1382 by itself is about Mach 1.9,  which added to the base Eagle's speed would imply they thought this thing would outrun a Blackbird. (Trivial note, would you believe the REAL speed-limit on a Blackbird is the Exhaust Gas Temperature? If you go above EGT of 860F you melt the engine... so if the air's a little cooler at altitude, you can run the engine that much hotter and thus get a little more speed out of it--a Habu I once had the privilege of interviewing up here at the Museum of Flight told me that according to what Kelly Johnson himself told him once, if you could build an engine to get it there the airframe itself is good for up to Mach 7 or better)

I get that you're trying to build a faithful model from your inspiration, and applaud it--I'm just trying to work out how close a real Eagle can get to what they wrote... (Though this is one where I have the advantage as both builder and writer... While they pulled numbers out of their afterburner cans and went with Rule of Cool and leave you trying to build up to their spec, I have it easier starting with "how far could I realistically push an F-15, given a plane and access to all currently-existing technology?") for one, that's a whole new front-end, I'll bet the cockpit is a lot like Loral's old stealth-fighter concept (see the Monogram F-19) that requires the pilot to fly mostly lying on his back, feet forward. Definitely would have to have a Synthetic Vision System, as there's no over-the-side view, no view in the rear arc and limited forward visibility, I can't even figure out where the edges of the canopy glass are, or if there is any. If it's a single-seater, they might have been able to cram avionics from the #2 and #3 fuse sections into whatever of the former backseat isn't occupied by the pilot's top-half and open their former locations up into a new tank...

Anything I can do to help, just shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do. :)

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 04:15:52 PM »
Woooooow....
Since this plane survived all the way to 2045 and further who know's what kinda crazy s**t they can come up with!
The idea of the COFFIN system is right here. http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/Connection_for_Flight_Interface
I think this F-15 uses Version 1 or 2. Definetly not version 3.
But i'll make sure to shoot ya a PM when needed!
Thanks man

Michael

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 04:50:03 PM »
My guess is, they're probably using something like a Reaction Engines Ltd. SABRE system, or a hybrid turbofan/ramjet built around the GE YF120. (The YF120 was so powerful when combined with the YF-23 airframe, it actually drove the bird to crack its windshield once when the pilot put the hammer down, and surprisingly for a "failed prototype" almost all performance specs are STILL classified... I had an easier time getting data on the F135, which as something headed for war-zones you'd expect them to guard even MORE zealously.) Actually I just did some research, and if Wikipedia's right quoting 167" engine OAL and 42" diameter, the YF120's "cylinder" is smaller than the existing F100/F110 and the YF was good for 35K... so maybe it would fit into an F-15, or perhaps its next-gen development the conceptual RTA-1, which on paper would do standing start to Mach 4.1@56k' in about 8 minutes. Given that a Mudhen usually tops out at about Mach 2.2-2.3 as compared to a clean and stripped A-D at 2.5, that may be exactly how they got their claimed 1382mph gain.

And I'll bet they'd have made significant gains in fuel economy too. That, or maybe in the AC timeline they had to sacrifice fuel capacity to make room for avionics to extend service lives and somehow the SMT+ gained that room back... I know the original SMTD had to lose its internal gun to make room for the right canard actuator, so maybe the former ammo-drum bay became a fuel tank too--perusing the Ace Combat Wiki I notice they're bigger on gun pods than internal guns, so that would support the theory that they'd rather have more internal fuel, much like the internal-gunned USAF F-35A vs. USN/USMC/export podded-gun B and C models.

Personally, I bias toward P&W over GE myself... lighter engines, and less man-hours of maintenance. Every pound I can shave is another pound of fuel and weapons I can put on, after all... LOL :D


Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 05:31:10 PM »
I knew the YF-23 was impressive but to hear about it's engine's capabilities is just awe inspiring.
The only reason why they went with the Raptor is because of payload in my opinion.
Good to have someone that really knows their stuff Diamondback.
I can tell you and I are gonna get along just fine.
I'll keep everyone posted on this bird. I'll look into the YF-23 engine and.....IT's a long shot but maybe I will recreate the engine and have it slide out of the aircraft.

See ya
Michael

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 01:47:36 AM »
YF-22 won out over the YF-23 because the USAF had more faith in LMAero's management than in Northrop's (I was there at the time, heard about the outbrief - and, given the management at the time, I can't quite blame them, but I'm not sure I can legally tell a few stories to back that up).  The YF-23, with either engine, out performed the YF-22 with the same engine and, on a engine/airframe performance matrix, the final choice was the least of the four possibilities.  I don't know all the why's and wherefore's of the USAF's choices, save for the slap they gave Northrop's management (deserved, IMHO).  As for capacity, the proposed production F-23 design had equal capacity and greater adapatability in two weapons bays in tandem with a movable bulkhead between them for new and/or special payloads.  For instance, siamese-ing a pair of TSSAM sensor-ends back to back would give you a very nice recce pallet to fit in there.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 03:11:33 AM »
Best guess? F120 had a lot of radical technology leaps like variable cycling and bypass ratio, and while AFSC may like to push the envelope, the warfighters in the field who bet their lives on their machines are generally a bit more conservative.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 03:15:09 AM »
Quite possibly, and going by recent AW&ST articles, they'll likely be in the next generation combat engines.  Still, a lot of the F120 made it into the ultimately stillborn F136 effort.  It should be interesting to see what happens if the F135 develops problems like the F100 did.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 09:18:33 AM by elmayerle »

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 05:25:05 AM »
I was wondering. Has there been any problems with the F-22's engines?

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 06:54:04 AM »
Bearing in mind I'm just an Armchair Engineer and amateur student of the field (if a lifelong one), as far as I've heard the only problems I've heard are that the F100-F119-F135 line are the last of the old generation of engines, while the F120-F136-RTA1/TBCC are harbingers of the next to come. My bet, I figure F119/F135 will be the J79 of the conventional low-bypass turbofan, a "last-and-best Final Flowering" before combined-cycle turbines and hybrids claim the future as their own. Actually, it's not so much knowledge on hand, as a lot of research quickly done with meticulous notes taken from it. (Like Dale Brown, I like to write things so that IF some stupid Brassholes in the crapital performed craniorectal extractions, they actually COULD use my writing as a cookbook and get at least close to "as described" outcome. Evan's the real pro, I'm just a guy with a decent IQ and a unique class of Stick-To-It-iveness only found in individuals with Asperger's syndrome and similarly high-functioning autism-spectrum conditions...)

I should admit, trying to figure out how something like this might be built in the real world with present-day technology has also generated some idea fodder for my own project... Thanks for the added inspiration. :) (And an added goal: "Could Skywarp from 2013 with conventional cockpit, with or without human crew aboard, smoke COFFINed Dision from Alternate 2045 like a cheap cigar?")

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 07:08:57 AM »
I'm glad that you got something out of this Diamondback.
Hopefully for whatever idea you have going on now I hope it works out!

Michael

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 09:23:30 AM »
I was wondering. Has there been any problems with the F-22's engines?
To the best of my knowledge, that's one aspect of the F-22 that has not caused problems.  *grimace* And some of the F-22's problems now are caused by a determination earlier to "save" money by not investing in fixes experts in the field claimed were needed.  The urge to "save money right now" seems to be an eternal cause of greater problems later.  On the other hand, I do know of some things on the F-22 that were definitely improved on for the F-35 and the improvements are being fed back into the F-22 as upgrades and depot maintenance happen.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 11:07:27 AM »
Just looked things up on the ammo bay, and making room for the ALQ-135B Integrated Countermeasures System required cutting the ammo capacity in half and moving it from a drum to a big box. (That fairing on the belly is for loading it, the box to my eye looks like it takes about 1/4 of that square-shaped bay...)
http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/weapons/gun-system/113-m61a-1-vulcan-gun

So, IF they can come up with a miniaturized ALQ-135, that plus killing the ammo box may mean a little extra fuel there for you, or somewhere to house the AI's computer core for me if I could figure out an ejection/impact-cushion/flotation system for it.

Doesn't help that I started reading the annual AW&ST Aviation Sourcebook as a kid, so where others see it as a source of data I learned to see it as the world's biggest and coolest toy catalog. LOL
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 11:09:57 AM by Diamondback »

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 11:38:02 AM »
More info regarding the F-15SMT to the F-15SMT+

F-15SMT: 5.5th generation variant with 3D TVC, COFFIN, and APG-82 AESA radar.

F-15SMT+: 6th generation variant upgraded with partially aeroelastic wing and improved datalink.


Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 11:46:50 AM »
Didn't know about the aero elastic wing but it makes sense.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 12:11:50 PM »
Aeroelastic wing is do-able with careful structural design.  Some of the very early production F-18's had one that was a bit too elastic and had to be restricted.  IIRC, NASA eventually used one of them as an aeroelastic testbed.  You could probably shrink the F-15's ammo supply by using the set-up from the F-22 as I remember it had rather less capacity.  You might also consider downsizing both ammo and gun by using the stowage and gun from the F-35.

The capacity for 3-D vectoring with axi-symmetric nozzles has been demonstrated on the AVEN testbed F-16 as has a reduced observables axi-symmetric nozzle on the LOAN testbed F-16.  I see no reason why these couldn't be combined on an enhanced Silent Eagle.  I will note that from the YF-22/YF-23 flyoff, you don't absolutely need thrust vectoring, the YF-23 did quite well without it and Northrop avoided one level of complication in control laws et al.  That being said, I think you'd need it for an upgraded F-15 as I doubt you could alter the aerodynamics enough.  One thought for a developed Silent Eagle would be tail surfaces modelled after those of the YF-23 rather than separate vertical and horizontal surfaces; ISTR that one of St. Louis' more advanced developed F-15 concepts had that.

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 12:18:00 PM »
You mean like this? Above Top Sectret.com - Boeing Offers South Korea Stealthy F-15





***edit to fix your link so that it goes to the ATS page and not the Google link to the page. jjf
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 01:16:08 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »

Offline Diamondback

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 12:36:01 PM »
And as a bonus, going with GAU-22 (F-35) or GAU-12 (Harrier) would up-caliber back to the equivalent of the canceled GAU-7 the original F-15A design was meant to carry.


IIRC, the 3-views of the SMT show that 30-degree stabilator pitch-up with retention of conventional vertical tails... though the fins are, of course, reshaped.
http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/File:F-15SMTEaglePlus.png

Personally, I think a design with no crew-escape system (even if a simple and archaic manual pop the canopy, unstrap and jump over the side) is asking for trouble and "coffin" is an apt name for it, especially with the pending rise of electromagnetic-pulse weaponry (some sources even suggest that the F-22 may be capable of using pulses from its radar as an improvised or by-design EMP weapon, if you believe the Above Top Secret crowd)... but that's the direction their timeline and tech-tree went, and the series in one demo I played had pretty good graphics and flight-modeling.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 12:50:27 PM by Diamondback »

Offline elmayerle

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 12:46:30 PM by elmayerle »

Offline mikejapan

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Re: 1/48th F-15SMT+ from Ace Combat 3
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 01:36:06 PM »
That's the one I had in mind but couldn't find the picture. haha
But I will be sticking with the plane I pictured because that too me IS the ultimate eagle.