Author Topic: NZ Defence Acquisitions  (Read 15770 times)

Offline M.A.D

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2016, 08:01:57 PM »
In my opinion, the Kiwi's should have purchased Northrop F-20 Tigershark's
In fact here's the following 1983 proposal to New Zealand

1983 Northrop F-20 Tigershark proposed program cost to New Zealand


- Total program cost for a typical squadron of 18 x F-20 Tigershark aircraft.
- The flyaway price includes airframe, avionics, engine, recoupment, and appropriate administration costs.
- Support and other costs include two years of initial spares, support equipment, training and training equipment, technical publications, aircraft delivery, contract engineering and technical services, and U.S. Government administrative costs.
- Support is based on 20 flying hours per aircraft per month from one operating base with organizational and intermediate levels of maintanance capability.
- Aircraft delivery can begin 30 months after go-ahead.

Program Acquisition Cost
(1983 $, 18 aircraft)
Unit flyaway $10.7 million
Total flyaway $192.6 million
Support & other costs $80 million
Total Program $272.6 million


The F-20 would have been far more economical than the F-16, for the RNZAF.
On top of this, Australia and NZ could have possibly saved some costs in maintenance in terms of the General Electric F404 turbofan

In fact, I've always liked the notion of the RAAF operating a 'High-Lo' mix of Northrop F/A-18L and F-20's - hence maybe a joint Australian /NZ licence manufacturing of F-20!


M.A.D

Would have saved the cost of the Kahu upgrade and buying the ex RAN airframes as well.  That said, Uncle Helen may well have scrapped the Tigersharks too as by the early 2000s they would have been due for modernisation.

Interesting point re Kahu Volkodave, and you are probably correct "Uncle Helen"!!
But it is What If!!
Once again, I find it interesting to hear about you ASC experience!! Thank's for sharing.

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
Ok, if one considers closer weapons procurement agreements between Aust and NZ, one might seriously consider Project Waler as a replacement for both Army's ubiquitous M113 fleets!

M.A.D

Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 01:03:55 AM »

I think many European countries frequently use their fighters for checking out unidentified visitors at the borders. I suspect there's less need for that in NZ?

I think a UAV would be ideal for that.
It would have to be a pretty good UAV: fast enough to intercept the visitor before it is on your lawn, able to ID things even at light, and able able to do something about it if you don't want it on your lawn.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 02:58:00 AM »
Guys, please keep the Australian political rants out of this discussion.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Kelmola

  • Seeking motivation to start buillding the stash
Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2016, 06:02:56 AM »
Scenario 1: China decides it's not enough to antagonize Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Brunei, and by proxy, the US in its neighbouring waters (plus the usual beef with India), and wants to start building artificial reefs in NZ territorial waters and/or inserting "polite people" who then unanimously vote to join North Island into China.
Scenario 2: Putin decides Russia needs a proper tropical colony and decides to do the same, once the Pacific Fleet is made great seaworthy again.
Scenario 3: Hardline islamists seize power in Indonesia and they decide to spread the jihad to NZ because it's easier to conquer than the infidel lands in the immediate neighbourhood.
Scenario 4: The cows came home along with the flying pigs and the ever-menacing cargoship full of Argentinian revanchists accidentally lands in Auckland instead of Port Stanley. Hilarity ensues.

The thing most working for NZ is the sheer distance from anything resembling a threat, and as they still have a functional Army merely reaching the islands is not enough, one would have to be able to maintain a supply chain over most of the Pacific. Of course, outlying islands (Tokelau and Cook Islands) are still at risk, but would not really be defensible even with combat aircraft unless there would be a permanent force stationed there. (Also, to reach those islands the potential attacker would have to pass several US-held islands, which might attract undue attention to the invasion fleet.)

However, if China starts to become a proper blue-water navy, Russia gets its act together again, or Indonesia indeed starts flexing its muscles, then NZ should of course evaluate their options. Gripen E/F would probably be a good choice, though its range tends to be on the short side. (Or indeed Gripen M, if RAN decides to become a carrier force again the NZ Gripens could then cross-train on Aussie flattops...) Eurofighter is then the next logical step, but the cost may be prohibitive.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2016, 06:22:11 AM »
Scenario 1: China decides it's not enough to antagonize Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Brunei, and by proxy, the US in its neighbouring waters (plus the usual beef with India), and wants to start building artificial reefs in NZ territorial waters and/or inserting "polite people" who then unanimously vote to join North Island into China.
Scenario 2: Putin decides Russia needs a proper tropical colony and decides to do the same, once the Pacific Fleet is made great seaworthy again.
Scenario 3: Hardline islamists seize power in Indonesia and they decide to spread the jihad to NZ because it's easier to conquer than the infidel lands in the immediate neighbourhood.
Scenario 4: The cows came home along with the flying pigs and the ever-menacing cargoship full of Argentinian revanchists accidentally lands in Auckland instead of Port Stanley. Hilarity ensues.
step, but the cost may be prohibitive.

Don't forget Scenario 5:  The Penguins invade from Antartica ready to cut down all the NZ trees with...herrings!!!

The thing most working for NZ is the sheer distance from anything resembling a threat, and as they still have a functional Army merely reaching the islands is not enough, one would have to be able to maintain a supply chain over most of the Pacific.

NZ - easy place to invade...bloody hard to occupy IMHO (having good Maori friends).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:03:01 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2016, 02:40:25 PM »
Since becoming a protected species in 1986 NZs Kea Parrot population exploded and the notorious rubber eating pests overran the entire country destroying every tire and seal in the place.  The end result was NZ lost all their ground, air and sea transport and defence capability in a matter of months leaving them basically in a stone age society and open to incursion from any power that could get there and protect their rides from the Keas.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2016, 03:29:56 PM »
Just on the quality of welds on the hull sections Kockums fabricated, the welds were complete, the sections were complete and everything passed inspection.  The problem was found when the affected boat, HMAS Collins, entered her first full cycle docking (major refit) after several years service and a complete materiel inspection of the hull was conducted after she had been gutted for the FCD with discovered multiple cracked welds in the affected sections.

Once the survey was complete it became obvious that the navy had been very fortunate that the sections hadn't collapsed with the resultant loss the boat and her crew.  There was serious consideration given to scraping her before repairs went ahead but the result of this was a delay that rolled onto the following FCDs.  Actually saw the weld maps for the affected section and even with only the replaced welds showing, the full shape of the sections was clear.

I need to iterate, this was neither a design fault or one of poor quality control, it an issue with training and certification of a new Australian developed welding process.  As seen throughout the project (and others i.e. AFP FFG, AWD etc.), when a risk was identified or assumed measures were put in place to mitigate them and no problem occurred, where no problem was foreseen, i.e. an experienced overseas partner or contractor supplying systems or producing equipment, and they were left to do what they had (supposedly) successfully been doing for years, problems happened.

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2016, 11:55:56 AM »
In my Alternative ADF ORBAT I have Australia in a joint Australian/NZ license manufacturing and fielding of GIAT/Nexter CAESAR 155 mm SPH on 6x6 Unimog U2450L chassis!
They're cost effectiveness - both purchase and operating costs, along with they're strategic mobility, make them ideal pieces of kit!!

M.A.D
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 01:15:06 PM by M.A.D »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2016, 03:03:48 AM »
Does anyone know if there is a 1/35 kit (perhaps resin) of the CAESAR 155 mm SPH?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2016, 05:00:36 AM »
'for the caption thread'

I told you to watch out for that 'Roo

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6898.0;attach=15023;image

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 04:26:37 AM »
Quick Zac, you may want to go see this...and take plenty of photo for us ;)

http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/06/embraer-kc-390-to-visit-new-zealand-next-month/
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.