Author Topic: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70  (Read 37398 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« on: June 27, 2014, 01:33:32 AM »
All things pertaining to the MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70 can now be consolidated in one location for discussion and sharing of ideas. 

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MBT-70/XM803/KPz.70 Links:

Wikipedia - MBT-70 (XM803), KPz.70
Wikipedia - Wargames Wiki Database - MBT-70
Wikipedia - Wargames Wiki Database - KPz 70

The Armor Site - MBT 70/KpfPz.70

Global Security - MBT-70/XM803

John's Military History Page - AFV Page - MBT-70 and XM803

Google Books - New Scientist - The Evolving Battle Tank,  R.M. Ogorkiewicz

Battle Tanks (battletanks.com) MBT-70
Tank Nut Dave (tanknutdave.com) The Armoured Essentials - Encyclopaedia of Military Vehicles- The Joint MBT-70 Project

Prime Portal MBT-70 Walk Around

Defense Media Network - The MBT-70 Main Battle Tank Program

SVSM (Silicon Valley Scale Modelers) - Image gallery - MBT70 Nonballistic Prototype, Patton Museum, by Matthew Flegal


Models of the MBT-70/KPz.70:

Shapeways - 3D Printed 1:285th scale MBT-70 (KampfPanzer 70) war gaming pieces (four piece set)

Armorama - Aurora Models 1:48th scale MBT-70 (kit number 318-150) In-Box Review by Frederick Boucher

I have had two of the Aurora MBT-70 kits.  The first one was built a very long time ago and I took liberties with the kit and added an M2 .50 Browning HB on a pedastal mount just ahead of and to the left of the commander's cupola.  I may have added some additional stowage items to the turret but it was rather plain looking.  I did modify the 20mm gun by swapping out the kit part for something that looked more "20milimetery" as I was not familiar with the 20mm weapon used on the real test vehicles.  The end result was a nice little what-if with four infantryman on the vacu-formed display base that came with the kit.  The infantry figures were all armed with rifles that looked very similar to the Stoner 63 weapons system.  It was a very nice little kit and the spring suspension system really made my day as a thirteen-fourteen year old adolescent boy living in the Aleutian Islands.  I have no idea what happened to the model after I left home to join the Army and it was only just recently that I found another Aurora MBT-70 kit that was sporting the same box art as my original kit.  Not sure if I want to build it or just fondle the parts and leave it as-is in the box.   

Modeling Madness - Dragon Models 1:35th scale MBT-70/KPz.70 (kit number 3550) In-Box Review by Robert Meyers

Panzer-Modell.de - Dragon Models "Black Label" 1:35th scale MBT-70/KampfPanzer 70 (kit number 3550) in box review (German language page)

Armorama - Dragon Models "Black Label" 1:35th scale MBT-70/KPz.70 (kit number 3550) In-Box Review by Dale Oliver

There are a number of us that have been turned off by the MSRP on this model kit and I was surprised to find that a slight break in price could be had by going through Amazon.com to purchase the kit directly from Dragon Models USA.  Here is the link to the sales page at Amazon.com: Dragon Models 1:35th scale MBT-70 (KPz. 70) $59.70 with free shipping).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 04:13:04 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 02:50:05 AM »
Commander Models also do a 1/35 MBT-70:  http://ironshipwrights.com/armor/MBT70.html
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 04:14:00 AM »
Commander Models also do a 1/35 MBT-70:  http://ironshipwrights.com/armor/MBT70.html


Thanks Greg, still filling in the blanks on the original post when you added your comment.  Saves me some time looking for that link. :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 08:20:37 AM »
MBT70 was an attempt at a revolutionary leap forward but in doing so it was (for the day) hideously expensive and stretched the envelope to breaking point.  I've never quite understood the rationale for putting the driver in the turret.   His location there caused all sorts of problems.  Normally he needs excellent vision to the front and sides to allow him to do his job but they found putting him in a contra-rotating "turret" resulted in quite severe spatial disorientation because he could never be sure which direction he or the vehicle was pointing.  His location in the turret also interfered with the commander's vision (the normal location of the commander at the heighest point of the vehicle offering the best vision was partially blocked by the drivers turret).

In the "low-cost" version of the MBT70 which was developed from it, the XM803, they returned the driver to the front of the hull.



The XM803 in turn led to the M1 Abrahms by a roundabout way.

The hydrodynamic suspension of the MBT70 offered considerable potential:



But apart from the Strv103 ("S Tank), only the Japanese Type 74 adopted anything similar.   With the development of gas turbines and 3 axis gyro stabilisation for MBTs, the emphasis changed to fire on the move and the idea of sneaking up to a reverse slope position and sniping at the enemy got left behind, so hydrodynamic suspension got abandoned for MBTs.

Some of the development vehicles offer some interesting ideas though:



Improved electronic Fire Control Systems with cheaper and easier to use computers also spelt the end of the Shillelagh gun/missile system, which the Germans were always a little leery of anyway.  They planned to use a 120mm gun on their modified version of the MBT70, the "Keilor" anyway, if they had adopted it.
 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:43:45 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 11:37:01 AM »
From the DML (Dragon Models Limited) and CyberHobby thread in the New Model Kit News/Reviews forum:

I'd love to whif this kit as a Canadian Armoured Corps, following the same career path as the Leopard. So we'd end up with a well worn MBT-70 with MEXAS armour and slats and mine plow somewhere in Panjwai.

Well, I'm not stopping you! :D
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Oh, why are we wai-ting? Oh, why-y are we wai-ting? Why are we wai-ting? Oh, why? Why? Why? ??? ::) :icon_punal:



 ;)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 11:57:52 AM »
About the only thing I could come up with that would be interesting is to kit bash the MBT-70/KPz.70 turret with the hull of the M1 Abrams or the M48 or M60 just to have a traditional driver positioned in the hull.  That would give you some additional detail options and allow you to fill in the hole in the turret where the driver used to reside.  The M1 hull would probably be the most logical as it looks a lot like the MBT-70 hull.  Might be able to do something similar with the Leopard II hull for the KPz.70.
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Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:47:21 PM »
The term you were looking for Brian is hydro-pneumatic, hydrodynamic refers to forces in or motion
of fluids.
Trust me, the MBT.70 has poor hydrodynamics.  ;)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 04:11:37 PM »
The term you were looking for Brian is hydro-pneumatic, hydrodynamic refers to forces in or motion
of fluids.
Trust me, the MBT.70 has poor hydrodynamics.  ;)

I stand corrected.  How do you know what the hydrodynamics of this vehicle was?  ;D

Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2014, 12:26:30 AM »
The old Aurora kit was a bastard to push around the tub.  ;)
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2014, 12:55:36 AM »
I know the Black label kit at work wound up in my possession rather rapidly and is actually being assembled, a rarity for me, as tanks bore the living daylights out of me. Insanely long, elaborate backstory pushed this one to the front.
So far, it's actually going together quite well.

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2014, 04:13:12 AM »
Some interesting videos showing the MBT-70 - the first one shows the driver's position very well:

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>
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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2014, 04:17:22 AM »
Drawing should anyone want to use it…perhaps for some profiles ;).

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2014, 04:19:11 AM »
More pics - note the air defence 20mm cannon:



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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2014, 06:03:21 AM »
Looks like a cross between a German TD and something Russian.  Is that a bad thing?  8)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 12:39:45 PM »
Has anybody found a picture of the XM803?  I've been looking and been unable to find one showing the revised driver's position in the hull.

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 03:20:11 AM »
I've never quite understood the rationale for putting the driver in the turret.


The Wikipedia entry on the MBT-70 provides this (based upon this Der Spiegel article): "The MBT-70 ended up very low, just over 6 feet (1.8 m) from the floor to the turret-roof. This left no room in the hull for the driver, who had to be moved into the turret. He was located in a cupola which was geared to rotate so that he was always looking in the same direction even if the turret turned. He could also spin the cupola around, so the tank could be driven backwards at full speed."

That does make some sense.  In fact, if you think about it, if reversing, he potentially had far better vision than if positioned in the normal hull position.
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2014, 03:45:49 AM »
"Potentially?" As I understand it, the driver's position in most standard AFVs has a lot of advantages but visibility isn't one of them. If it had ANY rearward visibility, then it was superior.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2014, 03:54:11 AM »
"Potentially?" As I understand it, the driver's position in most standard AFVs has a lot of advantages but visibility isn't one of them. If it had ANY rearward visibility, then it was superior.

 ;D
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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 11:05:52 PM »
trying to figure out how that 20mm barrel gets retracted and completely stowed away under the split hatch?

Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2014, 05:00:21 AM »
And what would the production version be called? Would be named, in German, after a member of the large cat family? Or in English after an American General?

I think my Canuck version will be called.... Vielfraß C1 (wolverine)

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2014, 06:39:05 AM »
I would imagine the German one would have been the Leopard 2 and the American the Abrams...
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Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2014, 11:16:05 PM »
I've been spinning in little circles trying to come up with the right name for my MBT-70, being as it's going to be a fictional Canadian unit using it. Currently, w name out vehicles after land mammals, like Buffalos and Cougars, etc, but I finally decided to go in a different direction.
We used the names previous users had, like Sherman and Centurion, so why not go with the concept the Americans and British did of naming them after famous generals. Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 07:40:03 AM »
I would imagine the German one would have been the Leopard 2 and the American the Abrams...

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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 07:45:38 AM »
Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


Alvis 3.1

Woohoo! More Canuck MBT 70's.

Well, Crerar and Currie were both Gunners....Howzabout Worthington or ?

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 09:18:58 AM »
Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


Alvis 3.1

Woohoo! More Canuck MBT 70's.

Well, Crerar and Currie were both Gunners....Howzabout Worthington or ?


Riel?
Oh, yeah, bad idea.

Worthington sounds awesome! I didn't know aboot him until now, and having read up a bit, naming a tank after him makes the most sense. Of course, given what happened during WW2, maybe having it then renamed the "Simonds" would be horribly ironic!
Nah, a tank named after"Fighting Frank"? Damn straight, that makes the most sense! Thanks!

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