Author Topic: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 17514 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 01:38:07 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 02:04:09 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.

Good idea. Creating it now.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 02:42:51 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot
Oh, I know about the Sunderland's cheek guns, it's just that they were piddly .303s. I'm thinking 4 x .50s or maybe 2 or 4 x 20mm to really put a beating on the deck crew and maybe actually damage the hull.

By the end of the war the U-boat crews got really good at riding the bubble to allow super quick dives. Sneaking up on them low, throttled back and relatively quiet and then hosing them with 20mm AP rounds would make a world of difference. The .303s, not so much.

The 20mm rounds would get there significantly before the plane could pass over to drop depth charges. The BAT would be much better, of course.

And the 20mm would make a much bigger mess out any small surface targets like barges or E-boats.

 ;)

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2018, 01:52:41 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):



Or maybe RPs:

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2018, 02:22:29 AM »
or like this

Offline apophenia

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 12:29:42 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.

Paul

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 12:46:37 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):
Yes, like that belly pack.

The RPs are OK, but you still end up having to get kinda close and by the war's end, some of the Type VII and later boats were carrying a substantial AAA kit. Pitching a Bat at it would be far better/safer.  :smiley:

Paul

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2018, 02:33:12 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?


Or in bomb bay:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2018, 07:55:22 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.
Yeah, folded up like that, you get interference drag that can be fierce.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2018, 01:50:59 AM »

Or in bomb bay:




Greg, do you have a higher resolution copy of this, I've tried zooming in on it and all it does is get more blurry. Could you PM/email it to me please.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2018, 05:40:03 AM »
No better image I'm afraid but I do have some information for you.  The retractable bomb bay, 16 rocket, installation (4 on rails plus another 12 reloads in the bomb bay on racks). was used on some Liberator GR. Mk.Vs  of 59 and 311 squadrons and 1 (Coastal) OTU.

You can get a conversion kit for it in 1/72 from Eduard.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2018, 06:50:49 AM »
Thanks for that Greg, I'd never seen this before (that's no photos of it)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2018, 07:33:14 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.
Yeah, folded up like that, you get interference drag that can be fierce.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks Evan and Paul!
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2018, 01:50:38 AM »
If one wished to put rockets on the Sunderland, one option would be to have them able to be extended/retracted via the underwing hatches - see below:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2018, 07:56:06 AM »
Just putting this out there.




From this book:






Chris
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:02:53 AM by dogsbody »
"What young man could possibly be bored
with a uniform to wear,
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2018, 12:29:50 AM »
If one wished to put rockets on the Sunderland, one option would be to have them able to be extended/retracted via the underwing hatches - see below:
Yeah, for the Sunderland, those extendable weapons rails are great for adding capability.

Presuming the rockets fit through the doors or that the doors can be made larger to accommodate them, this makes the most sense. Especially with regards to reloading the rocket rails or mixing weapons loads.

Managing rockets in a moving aircraft in low altitude turbulence, even if no-one is shooting at you, isn't a thing I'd do manually, so a mechanised reloading system would be needed. But the hull was truly cavernous, so space wouldn't be a problem.

Paul

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2018, 01:52:33 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2018, 02:33:14 AM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2018, 03:32:58 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Either that or a way of dropping the rocket rails, once deployed, lower to clear the propellers.  Perhaps a frame on a trapeze to drop it down and forward?

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2018, 04:57:58 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Either that or a way of dropping the rocket rails, once deployed, lower to clear the propellers.  Perhaps a frame on a trapeze to drop it down and forward?

If you look in the second photo down in Greg's post (the underside of the white Sunderland), you can see the outline of the removable door below the opening that was used to load the aircraft easier from lighters. There's no substantial structure there so making the opening further down wouldn't impede on anything.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2018, 05:06:18 AM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?

It is really good Greg. It was published in 1975 and back then there zero books on Canadian Aviation other than official histories. Is there something you are looking for?

It is part a 7 part series of which only two books were published. The first one being on the Blackburn Shark.

I have copy as well. Owned it since 1975.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:55:38 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2018, 01:19:21 AM »
Is there something you are looking for?


Thanks mate.  I was curious given it seems to be the only location that has details of that rocket setup on the Liberators so am interested in what other 'gems' it might include and thus whether to acquire a copy.  What's the Shark one like?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2018, 12:53:13 PM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?

It is really good Greg. It was published in 1975 and back then there zero books on Canadian Aviation other than official histories. Is there something you are looking for?

It is part a 7 part series of which only two books were published. The first one being on the Blackburn Shark.

I have copy as well. Owned it since 1975.


I, too, have the Shark book, in both soft and hard covers.


Chris
"What young man could possibly be bored
with a uniform to wear,
a fast aeroplane to fly,
and something to shoot at?"

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2018, 05:08:43 PM »
Just thinking (yes my build in Australia delusion again) Australia decides to build the Sunderland pre war and continues developing it, including US engines, amphibious version, .50 cals US turrets. 

Post war version ordered to keep the line going and in place of the Lincoln GRs.  Its a hybrid amphibious Sunderland with elements of the Seaford, 20mm turrets (love the Shackleton nose turret idea) and maybe Molins 57mm either side of the front fuselage with extra clips able to be loaded from inside.  May need to buy a Sunderland kit now......