Author Topic: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 17511 times)

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2015, 04:21:25 AM »
What about a Sunderland with more powerful engines?  Maybe R2600s or R2800s or even Bristol Centaurus?

You're beginning to sound like Lawrence Wackett.  ;)
You say that like it's a bad thing!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2015, 05:10:47 AM »
Not at all, I am sorely tempted to try Wacketts suggested modifications to the Lancaster for Australian production one day, R-2800 instead of Merlin, .50cal instead of .303"MGs.  I would love to see what he thought we should do to the Sunderland for a local version, although he was also a pragmatist so maybe his suggestion would have been same as it was for the Lancaster, local production may not be worth it as suitable US aircraft were available.  Then again his recommended changes to the Lancaster sounded very much like a R-2800 powered Lincoln so his Sunderland would likely have been a R-2800 Seaford.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 05:23:52 AM by Volkodav »

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2015, 11:45:34 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2015, 01:02:56 PM »
A 40mm bofors and a couple f MGs would look cool
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2015, 03:22:35 PM »
Two 40mm and at least two 20mm would put a hurt on a u boat or small ship.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2015, 03:55:15 PM »
How about twin 20mm nose, dorsal and tail turrets and one or two Molins guns in the nose, perhaps one loaded with HE and the other with AP to penetrate surfaced submarines pressure hull.  Maybe the underwing bomb racks and the hatches in the hull sides could be modified to permit 5" rockets stowed in the cabin to be winched out onto the wings, would there be an issue with clearing the props?

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2015, 11:24:37 PM »
The Sunderland in it's original spec, was to have a 37mm nose cannon which could elevate up & down. The plan was abandoned shortly after the prototype flew with the new plan to have a 4-gun turret at the rear and another in the dorsal position.  This altered the cg quite a bit and to get over it Short just pivoted the wing backwards around the rear spar/fuselage connection.  This is why you have the classic engines-pointing-outwards look.  What is not so much known is that the floats pointed outward too -- and weren't straightened out until Short came up with the Seaford. The floats were also moved out towards the wing tip by five feet each side.

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2015, 03:02:15 AM »
4 turboprops.
A STOL kit
A belly full of guns pointed sideways
Presto, a water based gunship for 1960-Y2K and beyond.
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2015, 03:19:47 AM »
Beginning to sound like the zombie survival aircraft! Hmmmm........

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2015, 04:16:08 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

You're making the big assumption that the U-Boat would cooperate by staying on the surface long enough for the aircraft to bring its guns to bear. Not a likely scenario.

The side-firing gunship concept flat out doesn't work in the majority of WWII-type conventional warfare scenarios, it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2015, 05:40:28 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

You're making the big assumption that the U-Boat would cooperate by staying on the surface long enough for the aircraft to bring its guns to bear. Not a likely scenario.

The side-firing gunship concept flat out doesn't work in the majority of WWII-type conventional warfare scenarios, it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare.

I could never understand the side-firing gunship concept, they're very predictable.

Offline Kerick

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2015, 07:10:13 AM »
The idea is that an aircraft in a pylon turn basically keeps it wing tip pointed at a fixed point on the ground. As an armed aircraft circles its able to keep a ground target under fire almost indefinitely. This only effective in an air superiority situation. IIRC the AC-47s and AC-130s avoided ground fire by flying at higher altitudes. Of course the VC in Vietnam didn't have much more than small arms and some heavy MGs. So saying it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare is some thing I would agree with. In the real world.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2015, 08:40:38 AM »
The gunship concept also only works as long as you can keep outside the range of the bad guys AA weapons.  When they can out range you, flying in a predictable circle overhead becomes suicidal.  That is why the USAF had to keep increasing the calibre of it's weapons on the gun ships from 7.62mm to 20mm and then 105mm, it get the plane higher and further away.  MANPADS sort of ended that contest.   It's also why gunships can really only operate at night.  Again, flying in a predictable circle around your target in daylight is pretty suicidal.

Online GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 06:47:30 PM »
I wouldn't use the Sunderland as a gunship against u-boats or major combat forces.  As a colonial enforcer though...well that's a different matter...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2015, 12:04:52 AM »
How about in addition to twin 20mm turrets in the nose tail and dorsal positions, as well as a pair forward firing canon, maybe a 57mm Molins gun with AP rounds and a 95mm howitzer (long barrel  ;))  it also has a 20mm on each beam?

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2015, 09:38:01 PM »
Sunderland landing on grass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZfVEoZmt-c

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Robomog

  • ...had a very bad experience with [an] orange...
  • Would you buy a used kit from this man?
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2017, 12:23:05 AM »
I know I'm late to this thread but even if you weren't doing a whiff this video gives a brilliant view on how badly a model of this type of aircraft could be weathered
Mostly Harmless...............

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2018, 02:51:39 AM »
I got  an 1/72 Airfix Sunderland from a local modeller but had no idea what to do with it until today.  Thanks Gingervitis man!


My stash room is a big mess (and that is good thing) as I had within my eyesight the Sunderland kit and a Frog Shackleton. And then the magic happened!

So with a very squinty look, I saw that the Shack Griffons would fit in mostly perfectly in place of the Pegasus's. I cut back the Griffon to just behind the engine proper. 

And I bought a set of hollow punches a while back which can now be used to create covers for the way-too-many windows design. 7/32nds plus a slight window enlargement via xacto blade.

Self defence will be upgraded with 2 dorsal turrets from either a B-17 or Lancaster.

Weapons loadout is TBD but am thinking Tiny Tim rockets and maybe the ASM-N-2 Bat. And radar too. Bombs are so 1938.


PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-N-2_Bat

PPS: https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZZXN9AUS3/1-72-scale-asm-n-2-bat-swod-mk-9-gluide-bomb


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-04
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-02
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-01
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-03
by Big Gimper, on Flickr
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2018, 03:42:49 AM »
Perfect idea Carl   :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

With the heavier engines, you could straighten out the wings to where they originally were.

Like this, the wing was pivoted at the main spar point (actually the rear spar), so you have to cut a bit out of the wing in front of the spar and add some wing behind it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:45:25 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2018, 04:00:34 AM »
Thanks Robert. I'll most certainly look into that.  Do you have a photo/image of the original straight wing design?

Now since the I posted this (and this maybe idea will get me first in line of the BTS firing squad) that I go with twin tails? You know how much I luv twin tails.   :-*
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2018, 05:27:33 AM »
I don't Carl, just what I read in an article on what they did. I've seen a photo of the front spar extension though, which if I understand it correctly, was used on every other Sunderland afterwards. It was just a short length of spar with the bolt connections at both ends.

On the kit, the rear spar is easy to identify, it's the panel line on the wing that corresponds with the rear end of the kit's location tab, front end of that tab happens to be where the front spar is.

If you do a google image search for Short Sunderland prototype, there's a few of it in the first few pics. A bit further down is another which says was a German Recognition manual showing the prototype

EDIT:  Just looked on the What-If forum to find my thread there on my project, only I haven't started one, just added to an on going one. The wing was rotated 4 degrees backwards at the rear spar point where it attaches to the fuselage, so I cut a 4 degree wedge shape slot in the front of the spar then added a four degree wedge behind it.  IIRC, this makes the rear spar perpendicular to the fuselage center line. wrong, it makes the rear spar 2 degrees forward of perpendicular instead of 2 degrees backwards as the production Sunderlands were.

EDIT 2:  The thread I thought I had on the What-If forum isn't there because  ----- it's on this forum   :-X :-X :-X

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1235.0
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:19:00 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline finsrin

  • The Dr Frankenstein of the modelling world...when not hiding from SBA
  • Finds part glues it on, finds part glues it on....
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2018, 07:06:50 AM »
A right-n-proper project.  Power of Griffons is big help.  Agree with loadout idea.  Keep going.

Offline The Big Gimper

  • Any model will look better in RCAF, SEAC or FAA markings
  • Global Moderator
  • Cut. Cut. Cut. Measure. Cut. Cut. Crap. Toss.
    • Photobucket Modeling Album
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2018, 07:42:54 AM »
Thanks Robert and Bill.

I'll reviewed your work and yes I'll reduce the sweep back.

I think I will use the larger tail as used on the Seaford. A B-50 tail looks to be a good replacement.



« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:53:30 AM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2018, 08:05:05 AM »
Self defence will be upgraded with 2 dorsal turrets from either a B-17 or Lancaster.
Suggest the tail turret from a 2x .50 gun Lanc along with the twin .50 Lanc upper turrets. Replace the piddly nose turret with either the forward turret from a later Liberator or the Shackleton's twin 20mm mount, or, and here's where it gets WHIFfy, a remotely operated twin 20mm turret cobbled together from the Bendix chin turret from a Fortress, deepened to manage the greater feed chute issues of the 20mm belts. A little Miliput would allow you to create a shape that would easily fair into the nose of a Sunderland.

You could also add the cheek guns from a Boston or Mitchell for additional firepower on the bombing run after catching a sub on the surface.

Subbing out some or all of the above with the Mitchell H's light 75mm could make gor a nasty surprise for surfaced subs.

Quote
Weapons loadout is TBD but am thinking Tiny Tim rockets and maybe the ASM-N-2 Bat. And radar too. Bombs are so 1938.
Against subs, the Bat would be near perfect, the Tiny Tim less so because the accuracy wasn't good enough. Although a variant armed with a depth charge might be better, a Tiny Tim woul dprobably be a better land attach weapon. An externally carried Bat under each wing plus depth charged on the internal racks to be run out under the wings for a second attack run could be very effective.

Paul

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2018, 08:22:14 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot

From Wiki:

Defensive armament included a Nash & Thompson FN-13 powered turret with four .303 British Browning machine guns in the extreme tail and a pair of manually-operated .303 set on either side of the fuselage, firing from ports just below and behind the wings. These machine guns were later upgraded to 0.5-inch calibre Brownings. There were two different nose turret weapons, the most common, later, being two Browning machine guns. The nose weapons were later augmented by four fixed guns, two each side, in the forward fuselage that were fired by the pilot.[16] Much later, a twin-gun turret was to be dorsal-mounted on the upper fuselage, about level with the wing trailing edge, bringing the total defensive armament up to 16 machine guns.