Author Topic: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 17512 times)

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Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« on: March 03, 2012, 08:17:08 AM »
Hi folks,

A thread dedicated to your Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration.

to begin with, how about some US Sunderlands...maybe built under licence.  Anyone up for some inspiring profiles?

Regards,

Greg
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 08:19:23 AM »
Another idea might be some Sunderlands modified post war to turbo-prop power (I imagine something like a RR Dart)...after all the RNZAF for one flew theirs through to the mid '60s.

Regards,

Greg
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Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 10:49:36 AM »
Ooo..Post war Turboprop SAR Sunderland, RCAF Arctic scheme.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 06:55:22 AM »
Darts anyone ---

Offline apophenia

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 11:23:11 AM »
... how about some US Sunderlands...


http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg11087#msg11087

Not licence-built but Reverse Lend-Lease USN Sunderland. BTW: Supermarine was given an 'S' makers code by the US Navy (along with Sikorsky/Vought-Sikorsky) so I assumed that Short would be 'S' as well.

I also did a post-WWII USCG Sunderland -- although I've got no plausible scenario for why a Reverse Lend-Lease aircraft was retained so long  ;D
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Offline jcf

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 07:06:03 AM »
BTW: Supermarine was given an 'S' makers code by the US Navy (along with Sikorsky/Vought-Sikorsky) so I assumed that Short would be 'S' as well.

The same code was only assigned in cases where the different manufacturers' types didn't overlap,
as people weren't likely to confuse a Stearman trainer (N2S) with a Sikorsky flying boat (PBS) with a
Supermarine fighter (FS).

So, assigning 'S' for Shorts would be unlikely, and even if they did, a PB2S would have to be a second
Patrol Bomber from Sikorsky, not a first of type from Shorts.

In 1922 Blackburn, De Havilland, Handley-Page, Parnall and Vickers had 'two-letter' codes assigned,
respectively BS, DH, HP, PL and VK, so I suppose a revival of that scheme could generate a code of SB
for Short Brothers.
In that case a Sunderland I, II or III for the USN could be a PBSB-1, 2, 3; and a Sunderland V a PB2SB-1.

 :icon_fsm:

p.s. so while thinking about hypothetical two-letter codes how about the rest of the Brit manufacturers:
    AS = Airspeed
    AW = Armstrong Whitworth
    AV = Avro
    BR = Bristol
    BP = Boulton-Paul
    EE = English Electric
    FY = Fairey
    GL = Gloster
    HK = Hawker
    MA = Miles
    SA = Saunders Roe/SARO
    WL = Westland
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 02:09:03 PM »
After winning the Megamillions, this is the machine I'd outfit for private fishing trips in the American west, complete with a Willys compatible door and floor.    :)
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 02:48:58 AM »
Updated Sunderland with turboprops and MAD boom instead of rear turret.  Updated radar and all turrets/guns removed.  Maybe even find a way to drop sonobouys - probably from the underwing bomb racks...the ones that could be extended/retracted in flight.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 04:20:39 AM »
Updated Sunderland with turboprops and MAD boom instead of rear turret.  Updated radar and all turrets/guns removed.  Maybe even find a way to drop sonobouys - probably from the underwing bomb racks...the ones that could be extended/retracted in flight.

Erm! hello ----  ;)

I was going to join in on the 'All Floaty Things' GB, but nobody got back to me if I could continue on with this.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2013, 06:05:42 AM »
this is the machine I'd outfit for private fishing trips in the American west  :)


I had Air Freddie use some for his private resort transport ...
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1137.0

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 03:49:10 PM »
[

Erm! hello ----  ;)

I was going to join in on the 'All Floaty Things' GB, but nobody got back to me if I could continue on with this.

Mine is going to be similar but of a larger scale... ;)
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2013, 11:43:23 PM »
I was going to join in on the 'All Floaty Things' GB, but nobody got back to me if I could continue on with this.

Oh really?!  Check your PMs....
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Offline kengeorge

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 10:19:24 AM »
I know its a bit of a 'Bump' but I've seen this and thought 'how good is this?'

http://jflaxman.deviantart.com/art/Escape-from-Devil-s-Maw-470505998

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 10:33:57 AM »
I know its a bit of a 'Bump' but I've seen this and thought 'how good is this?'

http://jflaxman.deviantart.com/art/Escape-from-Devil-s-Maw-470505998


Cool. The H20 version of Flight of the Phoenix.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 11:55:58 AM »
Interesting
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Offline jcf

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2015, 12:56:51 AM »
Give it NEI markings and call it the Flying Dutchman.  ;D

Amusing concept, poor choice of rig if you really want to get away.  ;D
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Offline trickyrich

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 09:52:07 PM »
After seeing this thread I could help myself...........

This scheme has been kicking around on other site but as I have only very recently found this one.....I may as well post it here as well.

.......still waiting for someone to take the challenge and build it!!



Not sure if the engines are capable enough to get it off the deck so to speak....but turbo props?

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 02:04:20 AM »
Tempting...
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2015, 08:03:42 PM »
To me, the Sunderland would have made a perfect platform for a maritime gunship and could have been a flying boat ancestor of the AC-130.

Plenty of fuel for long loiter times, tons of room for big guns and associated ammunition and a bunch of portholes down either side that could be converted to gun or sighting ports.

You could have wreaked serious havoc on Axis shipping in wherever it might be, not to mention what you could do to their ports and other coastal installations.

It was also a very strongly built aircraft known for being well able to defend itself. Change the nose and tail turrets to a pair of 20mm cannons each and the Axis fighters can have that much more trouble taking one down.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2015, 08:21:20 PM »
Well the story goes that the Germans called the Sunderland the flying porcupine, don't know if this is true or allied propaganda.  A gunship version would fit that description otherwise it would be fun to do something that more closely fits the porcupine story.  Maybe multiple .50cal turrets and maybe some 20mm cannon thrown in.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2015, 08:34:34 PM »
Install two Molins 57mm cannons to keep the U-Boat 20mm crew heads down during the attack run. Lots of storage space for the shells.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2015, 11:28:28 PM »
I had made progress with mine (top pic), but then got ambitious (bottom pic)  it's in limbo at the moment while my mind wandered off on other things

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2015, 03:41:56 AM »
To me, the Sunderland would have made a perfect platform for a maritime gunship and could have been a flying boat ancestor of the AC-130.

Plenty of fuel for long loiter times, tons of room for big guns and associated ammunition and a bunch of portholes down either side that could be converted to gun or sighting ports.



The under wing hatches used for deploying weapons (seen in the pics below) could present an ideal location:


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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2015, 03:47:31 AM »
What about a Sunderland with more powerful engines?  Maybe R2600s or R2800s or even Bristol Centaurus?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2015, 04:10:16 AM »
What about a Sunderland with more powerful engines?  Maybe R2600s or R2800s or even Bristol Centaurus?

You're beginning to sound like Lawrence Wackett.  ;)

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2015, 04:21:25 AM »
What about a Sunderland with more powerful engines?  Maybe R2600s or R2800s or even Bristol Centaurus?

You're beginning to sound like Lawrence Wackett.  ;)
You say that like it's a bad thing!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2015, 05:10:47 AM »
Not at all, I am sorely tempted to try Wacketts suggested modifications to the Lancaster for Australian production one day, R-2800 instead of Merlin, .50cal instead of .303"MGs.  I would love to see what he thought we should do to the Sunderland for a local version, although he was also a pragmatist so maybe his suggestion would have been same as it was for the Lancaster, local production may not be worth it as suitable US aircraft were available.  Then again his recommended changes to the Lancaster sounded very much like a R-2800 powered Lincoln so his Sunderland would likely have been a R-2800 Seaford.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 05:23:52 AM by Volkodav »

Offline Kerick

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2015, 11:45:34 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2015, 01:02:56 PM »
A 40mm bofors and a couple f MGs would look cool
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2015, 03:22:35 PM »
Two 40mm and at least two 20mm would put a hurt on a u boat or small ship.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2015, 03:55:15 PM »
How about twin 20mm nose, dorsal and tail turrets and one or two Molins guns in the nose, perhaps one loaded with HE and the other with AP to penetrate surfaced submarines pressure hull.  Maybe the underwing bomb racks and the hatches in the hull sides could be modified to permit 5" rockets stowed in the cabin to be winched out onto the wings, would there be an issue with clearing the props?

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2015, 11:24:37 PM »
The Sunderland in it's original spec, was to have a 37mm nose cannon which could elevate up & down. The plan was abandoned shortly after the prototype flew with the new plan to have a 4-gun turret at the rear and another in the dorsal position.  This altered the cg quite a bit and to get over it Short just pivoted the wing backwards around the rear spar/fuselage connection.  This is why you have the classic engines-pointing-outwards look.  What is not so much known is that the floats pointed outward too -- and weren't straightened out until Short came up with the Seaford. The floats were also moved out towards the wing tip by five feet each side.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2015, 03:02:15 AM »
4 turboprops.
A STOL kit
A belly full of guns pointed sideways
Presto, a water based gunship for 1960-Y2K and beyond.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2015, 03:19:47 AM »
Beginning to sound like the zombie survival aircraft! Hmmmm........

Offline jcf

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2015, 04:16:08 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

You're making the big assumption that the U-Boat would cooperate by staying on the surface long enough for the aircraft to bring its guns to bear. Not a likely scenario.

The side-firing gunship concept flat out doesn't work in the majority of WWII-type conventional warfare scenarios, it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2015, 05:40:28 AM »
Could it handle a 105mm gun firing sideways? Even the 40mm Bofors carried by the AC-130 would ruin a U boats day. Was there ever an AP round for it at that time?
Fire control could have been an limited travel mount with an actual gunner to aim it once in the pylon turn. Even the AC-130s had a crew to feed the ammunition so one more for a gunner wouldn't add too much.
Bigger engines is always a good idea, at least in whiff world!

You're making the big assumption that the U-Boat would cooperate by staying on the surface long enough for the aircraft to bring its guns to bear. Not a likely scenario.

The side-firing gunship concept flat out doesn't work in the majority of WWII-type conventional warfare scenarios, it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare.

I could never understand the side-firing gunship concept, they're very predictable.

Offline Kerick

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2015, 07:10:13 AM »
The idea is that an aircraft in a pylon turn basically keeps it wing tip pointed at a fixed point on the ground. As an armed aircraft circles its able to keep a ground target under fire almost indefinitely. This only effective in an air superiority situation. IIRC the AC-47s and AC-130s avoided ground fire by flying at higher altitudes. Of course the VC in Vietnam didn't have much more than small arms and some heavy MGs. So saying it is a weapon of asymmetrical warfare is some thing I would agree with. In the real world.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2015, 08:40:38 AM »
The gunship concept also only works as long as you can keep outside the range of the bad guys AA weapons.  When they can out range you, flying in a predictable circle overhead becomes suicidal.  That is why the USAF had to keep increasing the calibre of it's weapons on the gun ships from 7.62mm to 20mm and then 105mm, it get the plane higher and further away.  MANPADS sort of ended that contest.   It's also why gunships can really only operate at night.  Again, flying in a predictable circle around your target in daylight is pretty suicidal.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 06:47:30 PM »
I wouldn't use the Sunderland as a gunship against u-boats or major combat forces.  As a colonial enforcer though...well that's a different matter...
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2015, 12:04:52 AM »
How about in addition to twin 20mm turrets in the nose tail and dorsal positions, as well as a pair forward firing canon, maybe a 57mm Molins gun with AP rounds and a 95mm howitzer (long barrel  ;))  it also has a 20mm on each beam?

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2015, 09:38:01 PM »
Sunderland landing on grass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZfVEoZmt-c

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Offline Robomog

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2017, 12:23:05 AM »
I know I'm late to this thread but even if you weren't doing a whiff this video gives a brilliant view on how badly a model of this type of aircraft could be weathered
Mostly Harmless...............

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2018, 02:51:39 AM »
I got  an 1/72 Airfix Sunderland from a local modeller but had no idea what to do with it until today.  Thanks Gingervitis man!


My stash room is a big mess (and that is good thing) as I had within my eyesight the Sunderland kit and a Frog Shackleton. And then the magic happened!

So with a very squinty look, I saw that the Shack Griffons would fit in mostly perfectly in place of the Pegasus's. I cut back the Griffon to just behind the engine proper. 

And I bought a set of hollow punches a while back which can now be used to create covers for the way-too-many windows design. 7/32nds plus a slight window enlargement via xacto blade.

Self defence will be upgraded with 2 dorsal turrets from either a B-17 or Lancaster.

Weapons loadout is TBD but am thinking Tiny Tim rockets and maybe the ASM-N-2 Bat. And radar too. Bombs are so 1938.


PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-N-2_Bat

PPS: https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZZXN9AUS3/1-72-scale-asm-n-2-bat-swod-mk-9-gluide-bomb


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-04
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-02
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-01
by Big Gimper, on Flickr


RCAF-Sunderland-MkX-03
by Big Gimper, on Flickr
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2018, 03:42:49 AM »
Perfect idea Carl   :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

With the heavier engines, you could straighten out the wings to where they originally were.

Like this, the wing was pivoted at the main spar point (actually the rear spar), so you have to cut a bit out of the wing in front of the spar and add some wing behind it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:45:25 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2018, 04:00:34 AM »
Thanks Robert. I'll most certainly look into that.  Do you have a photo/image of the original straight wing design?

Now since the I posted this (and this maybe idea will get me first in line of the BTS firing squad) that I go with twin tails? You know how much I luv twin tails.   :-*
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2018, 05:27:33 AM »
I don't Carl, just what I read in an article on what they did. I've seen a photo of the front spar extension though, which if I understand it correctly, was used on every other Sunderland afterwards. It was just a short length of spar with the bolt connections at both ends.

On the kit, the rear spar is easy to identify, it's the panel line on the wing that corresponds with the rear end of the kit's location tab, front end of that tab happens to be where the front spar is.

If you do a google image search for Short Sunderland prototype, there's a few of it in the first few pics. A bit further down is another which says was a German Recognition manual showing the prototype

EDIT:  Just looked on the What-If forum to find my thread there on my project, only I haven't started one, just added to an on going one. The wing was rotated 4 degrees backwards at the rear spar point where it attaches to the fuselage, so I cut a 4 degree wedge shape slot in the front of the spar then added a four degree wedge behind it.  IIRC, this makes the rear spar perpendicular to the fuselage center line. wrong, it makes the rear spar 2 degrees forward of perpendicular instead of 2 degrees backwards as the production Sunderlands were.

EDIT 2:  The thread I thought I had on the What-If forum isn't there because  ----- it's on this forum   :-X :-X :-X

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1235.0
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:19:00 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2018, 07:06:50 AM »
A right-n-proper project.  Power of Griffons is big help.  Agree with loadout idea.  Keep going.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2018, 07:42:54 AM »
Thanks Robert and Bill.

I'll reviewed your work and yes I'll reduce the sweep back.

I think I will use the larger tail as used on the Seaford. A B-50 tail looks to be a good replacement.



« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:53:30 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2018, 08:05:05 AM »
Self defence will be upgraded with 2 dorsal turrets from either a B-17 or Lancaster.
Suggest the tail turret from a 2x .50 gun Lanc along with the twin .50 Lanc upper turrets. Replace the piddly nose turret with either the forward turret from a later Liberator or the Shackleton's twin 20mm mount, or, and here's where it gets WHIFfy, a remotely operated twin 20mm turret cobbled together from the Bendix chin turret from a Fortress, deepened to manage the greater feed chute issues of the 20mm belts. A little Miliput would allow you to create a shape that would easily fair into the nose of a Sunderland.

You could also add the cheek guns from a Boston or Mitchell for additional firepower on the bombing run after catching a sub on the surface.

Subbing out some or all of the above with the Mitchell H's light 75mm could make gor a nasty surprise for surfaced subs.

Quote
Weapons loadout is TBD but am thinking Tiny Tim rockets and maybe the ASM-N-2 Bat. And radar too. Bombs are so 1938.
Against subs, the Bat would be near perfect, the Tiny Tim less so because the accuracy wasn't good enough. Although a variant armed with a depth charge might be better, a Tiny Tim woul dprobably be a better land attach weapon. An externally carried Bat under each wing plus depth charged on the internal racks to be run out under the wings for a second attack run could be very effective.

Paul

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2018, 08:22:14 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot

From Wiki:

Defensive armament included a Nash & Thompson FN-13 powered turret with four .303 British Browning machine guns in the extreme tail and a pair of manually-operated .303 set on either side of the fuselage, firing from ports just below and behind the wings. These machine guns were later upgraded to 0.5-inch calibre Brownings. There were two different nose turret weapons, the most common, later, being two Browning machine guns. The nose weapons were later augmented by four fixed guns, two each side, in the forward fuselage that were fired by the pilot.[16] Much later, a twin-gun turret was to be dorsal-mounted on the upper fuselage, about level with the wing trailing edge, bringing the total defensive armament up to 16 machine guns.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 01:38:07 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 02:04:09 AM »
Loving your idea here.  If you were going to use a B-50 tail, you may also steal some turrets from it...that said, I like your twin tail idea.

Either way, it might also be worth moving this one to its own dedicated build thread.

Good idea. Creating it now.
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 02:42:51 AM »
It wouldn't need cheek guns TM, they were equipped with four fixed guns in the nose fired by the pilot
Oh, I know about the Sunderland's cheek guns, it's just that they were piddly .303s. I'm thinking 4 x .50s or maybe 2 or 4 x 20mm to really put a beating on the deck crew and maybe actually damage the hull.

By the end of the war the U-boat crews got really good at riding the bubble to allow super quick dives. Sneaking up on them low, throttled back and relatively quiet and then hosing them with 20mm AP rounds would make a world of difference. The .303s, not so much.

The 20mm rounds would get there significantly before the plane could pass over to drop depth charges. The BAT would be much better, of course.

And the 20mm would make a much bigger mess out any small surface targets like barges or E-boats.

 ;)

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2018, 01:52:41 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):



Or maybe RPs:

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2018, 02:22:29 AM »
or like this

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 12:29:42 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 12:46:37 AM »
Maybe add something akin to the 20mm unpack on the RAF's Liberators (though maybe in cheek packs):
Yes, like that belly pack.

The RPs are OK, but you still end up having to get kinda close and by the war's end, some of the Type VII and later boats were carrying a substantial AAA kit. Pitching a Bat at it would be far better/safer.  :smiley:

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2018, 02:33:12 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?


Or in bomb bay:

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2018, 07:55:22 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.
Yeah, folded up like that, you get interference drag that can be fierce.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2018, 01:50:59 AM »

Or in bomb bay:




Greg, do you have a higher resolution copy of this, I've tried zooming in on it and all it does is get more blurry. Could you PM/email it to me please.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2018, 05:40:03 AM »
No better image I'm afraid but I do have some information for you.  The retractable bomb bay, 16 rocket, installation (4 on rails plus another 12 reloads in the bomb bay on racks). was used on some Liberator GR. Mk.Vs  of 59 and 311 squadrons and 1 (Coastal) OTU.

You can get a conversion kit for it in 1/72 from Eduard.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2018, 06:50:49 AM »
Thanks for that Greg, I'd never seen this before (that's no photos of it)

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2018, 07:33:14 AM »
I keep imaging those rocket rails on the Liberator GR.V being made semi-retractable ... maybe just hinged to fold 90° upwards, flush against the fuselage?
They actually usually cause more drag and turbulence placed partially folded up against the fuselage sides than hung out in the air. There's a sweet spot where they could be semi retracted, or in fairings, that would lessen the drag, but if the fold simply places the rail arm and rails 8-12" out from the fuselage, it's actually worse at most airspeeds.
Yeah, folded up like that, you get interference drag that can be fierce.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks Evan and Paul!
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2018, 01:50:38 AM »
If one wished to put rockets on the Sunderland, one option would be to have them able to be extended/retracted via the underwing hatches - see below:


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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2018, 07:56:06 AM »
Just putting this out there.




From this book:






Chris
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:02:53 AM by dogsbody »
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2018, 12:29:50 AM »
If one wished to put rockets on the Sunderland, one option would be to have them able to be extended/retracted via the underwing hatches - see below:
Yeah, for the Sunderland, those extendable weapons rails are great for adding capability.

Presuming the rockets fit through the doors or that the doors can be made larger to accommodate them, this makes the most sense. Especially with regards to reloading the rocket rails or mixing weapons loads.

Managing rockets in a moving aircraft in low altitude turbulence, even if no-one is shooting at you, isn't a thing I'd do manually, so a mechanised reloading system would be needed. But the hull was truly cavernous, so space wouldn't be a problem.

Paul

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2018, 01:52:33 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2018, 02:33:14 AM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2018, 03:32:58 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Either that or a way of dropping the rocket rails, once deployed, lower to clear the propellers.  Perhaps a frame on a trapeze to drop it down and forward?

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2018, 04:57:58 AM »
I would say the hatch would have to be lower down the sides too, the line of fire is a bit close to the propeller arc. Having seen photos of inside the Sunderland, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Either that or a way of dropping the rocket rails, once deployed, lower to clear the propellers.  Perhaps a frame on a trapeze to drop it down and forward?

If you look in the second photo down in Greg's post (the underside of the white Sunderland), you can see the outline of the removable door below the opening that was used to load the aircraft easier from lighters. There's no substantial structure there so making the opening further down wouldn't impede on anything.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2018, 05:06:18 AM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?

It is really good Greg. It was published in 1975 and back then there zero books on Canadian Aviation other than official histories. Is there something you are looking for?

It is part a 7 part series of which only two books were published. The first one being on the Blackburn Shark.

I have copy as well. Owned it since 1975.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:55:38 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2018, 01:19:21 AM »
Is there something you are looking for?


Thanks mate.  I was curious given it seems to be the only location that has details of that rocket setup on the Liberators so am interested in what other 'gems' it might include and thus whether to acquire a copy.  What's the Shark one like?
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2018, 12:53:13 PM »

From this book:




Thanks for that.  What's the book like?

It is really good Greg. It was published in 1975 and back then there zero books on Canadian Aviation other than official histories. Is there something you are looking for?

It is part a 7 part series of which only two books were published. The first one being on the Blackburn Shark.

I have copy as well. Owned it since 1975.


I, too, have the Shark book, in both soft and hard covers.


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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2018, 05:08:43 PM »
Just thinking (yes my build in Australia delusion again) Australia decides to build the Sunderland pre war and continues developing it, including US engines, amphibious version, .50 cals US turrets. 

Post war version ordered to keep the line going and in place of the Lincoln GRs.  Its a hybrid amphibious Sunderland with elements of the Seaford, 20mm turrets (love the Shackleton nose turret idea) and maybe Molins 57mm either side of the front fuselage with extra clips able to be loaded from inside.  May need to buy a Sunderland kit now......

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2019, 12:40:02 AM »
Just thinking (yes my build in Australia delusion again) Australia decides to build the Sunderland pre war and continues developing it, including US engines, amphibious version, .50 cals US turrets. 

Post war version ordered to keep the line going and in place of the Lincoln GRs.  Its a hybrid amphibious Sunderland with elements of the Seaford, 20mm turrets (love the Shackleton nose turret idea) and maybe Molins 57mm either side of the front fuselage with extra clips able to be loaded from inside.  May need to buy a Sunderland kit now......
Post war you have to think of what the role is. If it's still ASW, then maybe add a MAD boom (retractable), and radars and sonobuoy chutes/ejectors. The Molins gun would be less useful as subs were snorkeling a lot by then, but allowing for early lightweight ASW torpedoes as well as the depth charges would be good. If it was predominantly for border/ASuW patrol, then the Molins gun plus some early stand-off weapons would suit well and the ASW sensors could be deleted. I mean there's enough room in the hull to house a family of 4, but I'm not sure you'd want to add too much weight to an already big aircraft.

Still, I suppose, if you re-engine the beast with Twin Wasps or even, dare I say it, Darts, post war, you'd have plenty of oomph to cart around a larger amount of kit inside.

The thought of a Sunderland, re-engined with Darts, sporting a radar in the nose instead of the turret, a Molins gun in one cheek and twin 20mm canon in the other, two torpedoes under the wings, sonobuoy tubes in the rear hull and a MAD boom sticking out from where the aft turret used to be makes a pretty convincing image of a latter day multipurpose maritime patrol aircraft for poking about remote archipelagoes and shorelines.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2019, 12:51:46 AM »

Still, I suppose, if you re-engine the beast with Twin Wasps or even, dare I say it, Darts, post war, you'd have plenty of oomph to cart around a larger amount of kit inside.

The thought of a Sunderland, re-engined with Darts, sporting a radar in the nose instead of the turret, a Molins gun in one cheek and twin 20mm canon in the other, two torpedoes under the wings, sonobuoy tubes in the rear hull and a MAD boom sticking out from where the aft turret used to be makes a pretty convincing image of a latter day multipurpose maritime patrol aircraft for poking about remote archipelagoes and shorelines.

Did someone say -- Darts, amphibious ---

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2019, 02:31:28 AM »
If you want examples of post war use, look no further than the RNZAF which kept theirs operating until 1967.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2019, 10:42:37 PM »
Did someone say -- Darts, amphibious ---
Very cool! Are you going from more of a cargo/civilian use?

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2019, 11:25:26 PM »
Did someone say -- Darts, amphibious ---

Very cool! Are you going from more of a cargo/civilian use?


Water Bomber, with a secondary role as freighter.

I was reading my copy about the Martin Mars use as a water bomber, and in the history chapter that led up to it's purchase, it says the Sunderland was considered for the role.

Here's my thread to the build so far --

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1235.msg43984#msg43984
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 11:31:45 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2021, 02:45:00 AM »

Still, I suppose, if you re-engine the beast with Twin Wasps or even, dare I say it, Darts, post war, you'd have plenty of oomph to cart around a larger amount of kit inside.

The thought of a Sunderland, re-engined with Darts, sporting a radar in the nose instead of the turret, a Molins gun in one cheek and twin 20mm canon in the other, two torpedoes under the wings, sonobuoy tubes in the rear hull and a MAD boom sticking out from where the aft turret used to be makes a pretty convincing image of a latter day multipurpose maritime patrol aircraft for poking about remote archipelagoes and shorelines.

Did someone say -- Darts, amphibious ---

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2021, 02:57:25 AM »
What about a Sunderland with Liquid cooled Inline engines?  Maybe RR Merlins?
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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2021, 04:27:34 AM »

Still, I suppose, if you re-engine the beast with Twin Wasps or even, dare I say it, Darts, post war, you'd have plenty of oomph to cart around a larger amount of kit inside.

The thought of a Sunderland, re-engined with Darts, sporting a radar in the nose instead of the turret, a Molins gun in one cheek and twin 20mm canon in the other, two torpedoes under the wings, sonobuoy tubes in the rear hull and a MAD boom sticking out from where the aft turret used to be makes a pretty convincing image of a latter day multipurpose maritime patrol aircraft for poking about remote archipelagoes and shorelines.

Did someone say -- Darts, amphibious ---

How are these going?

On the backburner ---- mojo is completely blown at the moment ----

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: October 09, 2021, 05:49:46 AM »
Can't believe I've just found this thread. Dad was a Sunderland pilot, so I am very interested. Even did some sketches of upgraded Sunderlands years ago. I was going to square off the wingtips, and maybe use the Allison T-56 as an engine replacement. Two of them, one on each inboard mount. On one outboard mount would be a honking great radar system, on the other a frighteningly bright searchlight. Also thought of squaring off the top of the rudder and ends of tailplanes.

Another mod would possibly be re-aligning the wings to remove the 4° sweep, including the thrust lines, necessitated when the installation of the Fraser-Nash 4-gun tail turret shifted the C of G rearward. This also led to a quirk in handling; sudden power reduction would cause a pitch up rather than down.

Others? Possibly a sturdier mounting of the floats, getting rid of the bracing wires. Rocket mounts under the wings, torpedo mounts, sonobuoy chute, radar guided turrets front, dorsal, rear, and possibly under the rear fuselage.

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: October 09, 2021, 08:13:53 AM »
My Dart Sunderland I did set the wings as the originally were. I rotated them at the rear spar location as that was where they were rotated back from.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 08:19:57 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Short Sunderland Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: October 09, 2021, 08:17:02 AM »
I moved the cockpit forward too so it was in front of the propellers, plus gave it some wheels --- I also changed the fin to something I wonder if anyone knows what it is from
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 08:22:00 AM by kitnut617 »