Modelling > Land
Panther tank and Jagdpanther
Jeffry Fontaine:
Wikipedia - Panther Tank
(Click on html or image to view Wikipedia article. Image source: Bundesarchiv via Wikipedia)
Why is it that the Panther was not developed into a fire support vehicle? Aside from the economic reasons for using all of those earlier hulls for this purpose, why not a fire support tank based on the Panther hull?
With this terminology I am referring to something like the United States M4 Sherman that was armed with a 105mm howitzer. What if the Panther development had included plans for a fire support tank armed with a 10.5 cm howitzer and the muzzle brake that was used on the Wespe 10.5 cm leFH18. Obviously this type of fire support tank would need a new mantlet that would allow for a higher elevation for indirect fire. Ammunition capacity on the vehicle would be about the same as the 75mm gun tank with the benefit of an armored turret for the crew.
Mount the turret from the 10.5cm Heuschrecke 10 on the Panther hull.
Another option would be to use the cannon parts from the 10.5 cm K (gp.Sfl.) Dicker Max with the Panther turret.
(Click on html or image to view article at Wikipedia. Image source: Wikipedia
Something to think about for those not wanting to do a standard Panther or one of the variations on that theme.
GTX_Admin:
Some I did earlier.
Wheeled Panther:
Panthers with different wheel arrangement + a few other features...:
Mobile SAM:
Panther APC:
Weaver:
I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.
Back in the days when affordable 1/72nd kits of modern armour were thin on the ground, the Panther/Jagdpanther provided one of the few "modern-looking" basis for sci-fi wargaming armour. Me and my mate built a whole range of grav tanks from Panthers and T-34s for Traveller wargames:
This one's a bit wasteful because it uses two upper hulls. Unfortunately the more sensible ones are long gone now.
Logan Hartke:
--- Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2012, 01:47:20 AM ---I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.
--- End quote ---
Yes, this was primarily why. In a defensive situation, AT firepower is more important than HE. The Germans were also (under Hitler's insistence) averse to any proposal that removed a potential gun tank from the production line. They should have built probably 3 times as many Bergepanthers as they did, but it was that obsessive short-sightedness that drove it.
I've mentioned it a few dozen times, I think, but I've read an account of Panthers at the Battle of the Bulge firing at a stone house and doing precious little. The HE content of its high-velocity 75mm KwK 42 was pathetic, just like the 17pdr (a VERY similar gun).
Thanks,
Logan
Weaver:
If you wanted a whiffy fire-support vehicle on a Panther chassis, how about putting the 150mm L12 gun from the Brummbar into the front of a Jagdpanther? The Brummbar's weakness was always that it was too heavy for it's Pzkpfw.IV chassis, so this would give you the same firepower with the Panther's excellent mobility. Pretty easy model too....
For a Jagdpanther-based APC, you could usefully knock a couple of feet off the height of the fighting compartment. The BTR-50, which is a perfectly useable APC of similar, rear-engined configuration, is some 700mm lower than a Jagdpather.
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