Author Topic: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs  (Read 5681 times)

Offline dy031101

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Would someone be able to identify the model in the attachment i.e. is it an actual paper project?

Weaver thank you.
I always wondered about the efficacy of a system that has a canvas cover like the AMX. Wouldn't it have even been vulnerable to small arms fire?

Indeed. The armour overlaps so the bullet can't get through to the interior, but it still rips the fabric. Of course all fabric mantle covers have this issue, but the AMX-type turret has a lot more square footage of it than most.

Can some sort of a bullet- and shrapnel-resistant fabric cover be practically implemented to protect the gun breech of this model at maximum gun depression?  Would such a tank be able to use pressurized NBC system, or would the breech cover still cause as much problem as the AMX-13 has?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 02:51:56 PM by dy031101 »
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 05:15:22 PM »
Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure most canvas breech covers are for improved dust & water resistance, rather than any camouflaging of weak points.

However, I can't see a problem with using a Kevlar cloth or going future-tech & using flexible boron carbide (link)
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 12:08:51 AM »
Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure most canvas breech covers are for improved dust & water resistance, rather than any camouflaging of weak points.

I've been under the impression of that, too.  When I said "protect" in the thread OP I meant in terms of NBC defense, and bullet & shrapnel resistance was brought up as an inquiry on how well that breech cover can be made to hold up in combat under NBC conditions even though, granted, that tank's arrangement doesn't seem to expose as much fabrics when the gun is depressed as an AMX-13 or SK-105.

Unless some sort of an extra measure can be implemented between the gun breech and the autoloader (I see the gunner's sight to the turret's left hand side, which suggests that the tank is equipped with one)......
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 12:14:39 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2016, 02:38:13 AM »
The model in the attached photo was a proposed Leopard 2 spin off that was intended to be smaller, lighter and have a lower turret profile. The section of roof over the gun would move so that the maximum elevation and especially depression weren't limited by the lower turret. I'm not sure of the actual name of the project so I labeled the images I saved on my desktop as "Wegmann Leo" (the W in KMW).

Offline jcf

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2016, 02:43:07 AM »
If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2016, 03:44:35 AM »
If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.

The turret in this case seems still manned, just the turret roof over the gun gets elevated and depressed with it.  Either that, or the gun might be further isolated from the rest of the turret.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 03:53:19 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline jcf

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2016, 04:32:28 AM »
If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.

The turret in this case seems still manned, just the turret roof over the gun gets elevated and depressed with it.  Either that, or the gun might be further isolated from the rest of the turret.

Sorry, I wasn't speaking of the turret in the photo, I was referring to a generic conception.
 
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 09:32:33 AM »
Normally, for a split turret like the model has, an over-pressure system is usually considered sufficient to protect the fighting compartment if it is exposed when the gun is depressed.   It needs to be quite strong though, as I understand it.  As has been suggested, isolating the autoloader from the crew is however considered a better idea if possible for NBC defence.

Early oscillating turrets had considerable problems with NBC defence with the quite considerable range of movement.  This is what led their major exponents, the French to largely abandon their use after the AMX-13.   However, they didn't stop working on them and by the late 1980s they were back on the market in a range of smaller, APC based turrets mounting up to about a 90mm gun.  They claimed they had beaten the problem with sealing the turret but I never learnt how.   Perhaps again it was use of a large over-pressure?   As far as I am aware, no one, not even the French Army bought any though...

The use of a cloth/leather/etc. cover would help considerably.  Making it bullet/splinter resistant would help even further.   However, until the 1990s, the cost of using synthetics was against widespread use by most military forces.   That it was also resistant to stretching would I feel tend to tell against it's use as well.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 10:17:00 AM »
Modern tank guns tend to use combustible cartridge cases that would be consumed during firing, leaving only the base.  Is there a typical pattern for turrets that have an autoloader (Leclerc, Kyu-Maru, T-72, ZTZ-99, and etc.) to have the cartridge bases ejected from the turret i.e. if I should place an ejection port for cartridge bases on the turret depicted in the thread OP, where would such a port typically be?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 10:38:09 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 02:40:11 PM »
Modern tank guns tend to use combustible cartridge cases that would be consumed during firing, leaving only the base.  Is there a typical pattern for turrets that have an autoloader (Leclerc, Kyu-Maru, T-72, ZTZ-99, and etc.) to have the cartridge bases ejected from the turret i.e. if I should place an ejection port for cartridge bases on the turret depicted in the thread OP, where would such a port typically be?

Depends on whether you're using an autoloader or not.  With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.   Without an autoloader, it would be situated near where the human loader stood/sat in the vehicle.  Typically, in a human loaded vehicle, there is sufficient space for 10-20 round bases to be stored in the vehicle and they are ejected when there is time between engagements by the human loader.  This could be through a dedicated hatch or the loader's hatch in the turret roof.


Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 09:20:12 AM »
With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.

Does anyone recognize this drawing?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2016, 09:25:57 AM »
The use of gallons as the fuel tank measure indicates to me either US or British in origin.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 12:42:18 PM »
With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.

Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2016, 03:14:38 PM »
Why would the LeClerc actually require an ejection port? The ammunition used by the LeClerc is the same as that used by the Leopard II and the Abrams and this is a semi-combustible case cartridge that when fired leaves behind for ejection a base piece that holds the primer and it is about the size of a large ashtray.  It takes up very little space and can be disposed of easily by tossing it out the hatch if necessary.  Google will provide you with plenty of images of the 120mm semi-combustible ammunition and you can judge for yourself whether an ejection port is really necessary.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 10:46:22 PM »
With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.


Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?


Quote
Spent cartridges are automatically ejected through a turret rear port...

[Source]

« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:50:30 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2016, 11:03:40 PM »
Seem to be too many "http://"'s in the link, Brian.

This works better.

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 02:54:57 AM »
Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?

https://youtu.be/dyjg5gLD-Bw?t=3m35s
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 08:51:10 AM »
Seem to be too many "http://"'s in the link, Brian.


Now fixed, not sure what happened there.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Unmanned Turret, Oscillating Turret, and Low-Profile Turret for AFVs
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2021, 12:10:12 AM »
Quick kitbash with the CM-32.

Source HERE
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?