Author Topic: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 88422 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2013, 10:44:52 AM »
Low-rider tanks, what'll they think of next?  ;D

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 12:29:21 PM »
Well Merkava began as a Centurion with reversed chassis......

What if a similar tank began as a T-54/55 with reversed chassis?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »
Well Merkava began as a Centurion with reversed chassis......

What if a similar tank began as a T-54/55 with reversed chassis?

I'm pretty sure that the Russians did that at one point in the 1950's-60s.  Can't find the reference at the moment but IIRC there is on prototype at Kubinka.

I suspect that it was failure 'cause their stabilisers might not have been able to cope with a rear-turreted position.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Offline AGRA

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2013, 01:38:49 PM »
Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I meant what if the Soviets produced this back in the '50s/'60s?


In place of the BMP a T-55 APC but with the BMP’s 73mm gun turret of course.

A favourite Soviet what if of mine is the Su-101. The Su-101 was a tank destroyer based on the T-44 with what the Soviets called the “Federniand” configuration of rear fighting compartment. These in mass production as the post war Soviet tank destroyer would be pretty cool. Also what would be the following generation? Like a forward engine T-55 with a 130mm gun or something…



Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2013, 10:15:08 AM »


What is this??

Offline AGRA

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2013, 11:09:36 AM »
A blow dryer. It actually is! Used to put out oil field fires by starving the burning well head of oxygen.

Offline arkon

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2013, 07:51:28 AM »
dangit! iwas hopeing it was nascars new track dryer!  ;D
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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2013, 07:01:48 AM »
In Soviet Russia they a serious when it comes to leaf blowers...
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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2013, 05:00:18 AM »
Need more gun....

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2013, 09:21:21 AM »
I wonder how one would go using the Achzarit APC (itself based one the T-55) as the basis for a Sturmgeschütz style vehicle? 

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2013, 10:22:07 AM »
They built such vehicles in real life - the SU-122-54, a 122mm gun in a casement on the T-54 hull.  Very rare, not many produced and until the fall of the Berlin Wall no pictures were ever seen except for an ARV based on the hull (the Soviets used to often recycle tank destroyers with the gun removed as recovery vehicles).



They also made the IT-130 on the T-62 hull with a 130mm gun:



Both were a hang over from WWII thinking where a large, fixed gun was often mounted on tank hulls as both insurance against the failure of the turreted version and to act as mobile AT guns to be used for long-range over-watch, over standard tank units.  However, with the advent of the MBT concept, of a large calibre gun mounted on a medium tank chassis, the need for them was reduced and so few were produced.

There are some who think the IT-130 is a fake or mixed up with the IT-122-54.  The main source for it is Victor Suvorov who has become in more recent years rather discredited.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 10:27:06 AM by Rickshaw »

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2013, 04:28:56 AM »
Actually I was thinking of something closer in concept to the original Sturmgeschütz concept - that of an Assault gun providing close fire support to destroy bunkers, pillboxes and other entrenched positions for the infantry rather then the tank destroyer role they later grew into.  Therefore something with a useful, though low velocity main gun such as on the Sturmgeschütz pictured below:



Maybe even something such as the 165 mm demolition gun from the Centurion Mk5 AVRE:

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2013, 08:45:19 AM »
Them perhaps you're looking at something like the original SU-122:



Or the ISU series with their 122mm and 152mm guns:





or even the monster KV-II



Even the ISUs ended up being used as "animal killers" by the Red Army at the end of the war (more because they lacked anything in sufficient numbers that could take on the Panther/Tiger II at longer ranges, than anything else).  The ISU-122 is perhaps the closest equivalent to the StuG series but the Red Army found it's usefulness limited so replaced them with SU-85s and SU-100s.   The KV II was even more of an oddity and never really followed up (although the Germans were fascinated with it, despite all its limitations).

Post-war, Assault Guns and Tank Destroyers fell fairly rapidly out of favour with most Armies as the MBT concept came in.

The nearest equivalent to the AVRE and CEV (US Army version of the AVRE) in the Red Army was the IMR, based on a T-55 chassis but which lacks a demolition gun.  They were replaced by the IMR-2 on the T-72 chassis:

« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 08:48:17 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2013, 07:40:06 AM »
Found this during a random browsing session.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2013, 09:14:36 AM »


I heard that it, originally said to not figure any composite armour of any sort, was upgraded with laminated/spaced armours.

I couldn't help to wonder how strong that upgrade is compared to the addon armours of the T-55 Enigma:



Asad Babil Enigma...... hum......

The armoured commander's cupola could be an interesting addition, too:

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2014, 10:42:23 AM »
TR-125, Romanian interpretation of the T-72 (interpretation because, while modeled after the T-72, it leveraged a lot of technologies gained from their TR-85 project, including a lengthened chassis with seven roadwheels to accommodate a Leopard-1-inspired engine):





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A T-72-compatible upgrade for an even more interesting what-if, the Leclerc-inspired, French-Slovak T21 turret:



« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:53:15 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2014, 03:41:03 AM »
Something amusing: T-34 vs T-90

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2014, 07:58:41 AM »
I was so sure that someone here mentioned it, but couldn't find the entry.......

This blog claims that the British were at one point actually in discussion on producing an improved T-34 and KV-1 in their factories.



Top: T-34 with 17-pounder gun
Bottom: KV-1 with a 6-inch howitzer

I'd like to believe the top one, but after hearing about the trouble they went through to put a 17-pounder on any other tank...... perhaps T-34-85 type with 77mm HV would have been more workable?

The bottom one is what caught my attention.  According to the blog post, the British would have introduced a variety of remedies to the KV-1's established weaknesses, such as transmission, but perhaps the most-visible change is the gun.  Wikipedia listed the M-10 howitzer, a derivative of which is used by the KV-2, as having a rate of fire of three to four rounds per minute.  The howitzer in the drawing looks like a BL 26 cwt howitzer, with a listed maximum rate of fire of two rounds per minute...... not to mention in this case it would have been a turreted setup, and KV-2 crew at least had a bigger turret to work within.  Am I missing something here, or is the notion that British had an indirect-firing capability in mind such that a low-rate of fire wouldn't have been a problem?

How was the utilization of HEAT ammunitions in the Western Allies?  The setup would be a bit like the Finnish BT-42 against tanks, and the BT-42 was let down by the fuse used in their HEAT projectiles; would the British have done better (I'm still inclined to see the 114mm howitzer as a better candidate for tank gun modification, provided that they could come up with a better-working HEAT round)?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 08:39:53 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2014, 09:08:27 AM »
A 17 Pdr in a T34/76 turret?  That would have also been rather cramped.  I've never heard the claim that the British were considering production of either vehicle before and it sounds like rather wishful thinking to me.  Fletcher doesn't mention it in any of his books and as he is the expert on British tanks, I'll believe him before a Russian report like this.   I am aware that the British were impressed by the quality and hardness of the steel used in the examples they received of the T34 and the KVI. That is mentioned in the old profile book on the KVI.  However, that isn't surprising when one considers that the best steel in the UK was reserved for the RN's battleships and the Soviets placed a higher priority on tank production.  The fact that fighting in Italy is mentioned makes me think that this dates from 1943, rather than 1942 and by 1943 they already had Centaur/Cromwell coming out of the factories and were starting to remanufacture Churchills and had adopted the Sherman in numbers.

If the British had produced either vehicle they definitely would have had to replace the gearbox and transmission in them 'cause they were notoriously weak points in the Soviet vehicles.  Improved ventilation and petrol tank placements would have been necessary.  External stowage bins on the turrets would be likely.

You are aware that Guderian proposed that the Germans copy the T34?  Compared the the Mk.III and early Mk.IVs it was clearly superior.  Compared to the British tanks in 1942 it was as well designed but a lot of it's design wouldn't have "fit" with either nation's philosophies on tank design.  I cannot imagine why they wanted to put a 6 inch How. in the KVI.  If they were willing to put a put a 17 Pdr. into the T34 why not do the same or put a 75mm into the KVI which would have been used I suspect as a Churchill replacement as an Infantry Tank.

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2014, 04:24:14 PM »
Whether the story is true or not, it certainly could make for some interesting whiffs! ;)
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2014, 05:03:01 AM »
If they were willing to put a put a 17 Pdr. into the T34 why not do the same or put a 75mm into the KVI which would have been used I suspect as a Churchill replacement as an Infantry Tank.

If they'd come up with their analog of KV-85......

===========================================================

Whether the story is true or not, it certainly could make for some interesting whiffs! ;)

I still find that 6 inch howitzer a bit of a stretch......

The Soviets also tested their own howitzer-armed KV-1 in the form of KV-9, and unlike seemingly everyone else, they actually had a tank howitzer of the right size and versatility.

===========================================================

Curiosity: can HEAT projetiles designed for the D-30 howitzer be fired out of a M-30 howitzer?  I know they are both 122mm, and Wikipedia claims that HE projectiles designed for M-30 are still in use by modern 122mm howitzers...... I don't know if that means there is compatibility in reverse though......

===========================================================

I admittedly kinda want to see a British-made KV-1 in Israeli colours.  All we had to do is to assume that the British came up with their analog of KV-85......
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 10:15:25 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2014, 08:13:21 AM »
What might not be a stretch would be a 122mm howitzer replacing the 100mm gun. With a 122mm howitzer in place of the 100mm gun you would have a nice mobile fire support vehicle that could be a replacement for the 120mm mortar battery that is integral to the subordinate battalions of most tank and motorized rifle regiments. 

Another alternative for a fire support tank might be to use the 82mm Vasilek auto-loading mortar in place of the 100mm gun.  This would certainly provide more room for ammunition under armor protection.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 08:14:59 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2014, 09:42:02 AM »
Curiosity: can HEAT projetiles designed for the D-30 howitzer be fired out of a M-30 howitzer?  I know they are both 122mm, and Wikipedia claims that HE projectiles designed for M-30 are still in use by modern 122mm howitzers...... I don't know if that means there is compatibility in reverse though......

Yes.  All you need is to put the appropriate case and charge behind it.  Might need a new driving band but I suspect not.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Soviet/Russian Tank and derivatives Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2014, 09:48:10 AM »
What might not be a stretch would be a 122mm howitzer replacing the 100mm gun. With a 122mm howitzer in place of the 100mm gun you would have a nice mobile fire support vehicle that could be a replacement for the 120mm mortar battery that is integral to the subordinate battalions of most tank and motorized rifle regiments. 

You get a higher ROF and range out of a mortar than you do a howitzer mounted in a tank turret.  Both are a big advantage.

Quote
Another alternative for a fire support tank might be to use the 82mm Vasilek auto-loading mortar in place of the 100mm gun.  This would certainly provide more room for ammunition under armor protection.

Same problem as above.  You'd need to mount it in a high angle mounting to get any real advantage out of such an arrangement.  The Vasilek is rather an odd beast, neither fish nor fowl and even the Russians haven't made all that much use of it's supposed advantages over a standard mortar or howitzer outside of airborne units.