Author Topic: Supermarine Spitfire Family  (Read 100440 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #175 on: March 31, 2019, 03:37:25 AM »
Please forgive me for the thread hijacking.   I was looking at hour "Spiteful" posts from around seven years ago, and it struck me that truth is imitating fiction.  Your Spiteful resembles a paper Sea Spitfire project from around November 1939 with a Griffin engine and raised canopy, and four 20mm cannons.  Fifty were ordered off the drawing board, with deliveries by July 1940.  Personally, I think that was optimistic, but the order was quickly cancelled.  Also, there was a ground attack version of the Spit on paper again, the type 312.  This also carried four 20mm cannon and the cockpit raised six inches.  This is all real world.

The paper Sea Spitfire project is, I believe, the "Folded Wing Spitfire" mentioned in the Morgan/Shacklady book in the section on the Seafire.  The discussion around this does mention both a Griffon Engine and an order of 50 in 1939.  It does not however seem to mention/show a raised cockpit or 20mm cannon. 



Later on, there is also a mention/image of a Single Seat Fleet Fighter NAD925/39 derived from the Spitfire F Mk.IV which also has the Griffon and folded wings and does appear to have a slightly raised cockpit although no mention is made in the text.  It also has a wing with a straight leading edge and gull wing.  It also does not show 20mm cannon:



Finally, there is a version with 20mm cannon but with elliptical wing and V-tail:



The ground attack Type 312 is also mentioned though briefly:



Quote
BTW, does the Shacklady book have anything in depth on the Supermarine 333?  THis was a project that was eventually filled by the Fairey Firefly.  The books I have (Buttler's old and new British Secret Projects and Beyond the Spitfire) imply the wing was simplified compared to the Spit wing.  It does away with the curved leading edge, yes.  However it has a gull wing, which pretty much defeats the purpose of simplification.

Also, are there any pictures of the planned Malinowski wing?

The Type 333 is mentioned with multiple images:






As to the "Malinowski wing", I cannot find any reference - are you able to elaborate?

BTW, apologies for the crude images - they were taken using my phone in bad lighting conditions.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #176 on: March 31, 2019, 03:50:09 AM »
Wow! Great stuff ... thanks for all those images Greg :smiley:  Some great whif-fodder there  :D
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #177 on: March 31, 2019, 04:00:55 AM »
Here's another for you - from 1942:

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #178 on: March 31, 2019, 05:17:15 AM »
If Hamsters could fly... :)
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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #179 on: March 31, 2019, 08:56:04 AM »
Thank  you for the drawings.  This really helps.

Offline kim margosein

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #180 on: March 31, 2019, 09:32:47 AM »
The second naval Spitfire drawing, the FIV based one seems to have a wing similar to the 333.  Your further drawings  of the 333 wing make the design even more complex.  Two bends on the wing spar?
 
BTW, thanks for chiming in on this, Apophenia.  I meant to post it on your thread, I don't know how it ended up here.   A couple sources mention that a Spit VIII was to be tested with a Malinowski wing.  That about covers it in the Buttler books, my only real source.   If there is nothing in the Morgan and Shacklady book, there is nothing.   Google "Stemal III" for further Malinowski wing reference.  Broadly it was a variable camber wing that was tested on a Nieuport in the early 20s, and was never heard from again.  Variable camber concepts, usually meaning a drooped leading edge were tried since WWI.  I don't see why the Malinowski wing was particularly different, especially since this was 20 year old technology at the time.  Maybe he had some patent?

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #181 on: March 31, 2019, 10:46:02 PM »
I meant to post it on your thread, I don't know how it ended up here. 

Greg split it from Apophenia's thread Kim

Offline jcf

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #182 on: August 12, 2019, 06:36:39 AM »
Just because it's gorgeous, the Silver Spifire, which is on an around the world flight. :thumbsup:



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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #183 on: August 12, 2019, 10:57:09 PM »
Does look beautiful & I love the registration GIRTY! :D
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Offline jcf

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #184 on: August 13, 2019, 01:47:44 AM »
She's scheduled to arrive here in Everett on Aug. 31 for a four night stopover at Paine Field.
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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #185 on: November 14, 2019, 11:21:25 AM »
I think I conflated your first drawing with the 925/39 project.  AFAIK the first project was a request to get some sort of carrier compatible Spitfire by yesterday.  Some preliminary stuff was done, then the project was quashed by Churchill.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #186 on: April 25, 2020, 04:12:17 AM »
Cool photo:

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #187 on: May 03, 2020, 03:43:20 AM »
I was thinking of something similar to apophenia's Americanised Spitfire (see here).  Mine would take a slightly different turn without the belly radiator mods etc.  Rather I am thinking of an early Spitfire Mk. I or II as the basis (maybe even a Mk.V) but with the RR Merlin replaced with an Allison V-1710 and maybe 6 × 0.50 in (12.7mm) M2 Browning machine guns instead of the eight .303 calibre Browning machine guns.
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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2020, 03:47:18 AM »
I suppose a further development to the last would be a Spitfire V with a Allison V-1710 including the turbocharger from a P-38.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2020, 03:54:56 AM »
I suppose a further development to the last would be a Spitfire V with a Allison V-1710 including the turbocharger from a P-38.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2020, 07:08:31 AM »
I suppose a further development to the last would be a Spitfire V with a Allison V-1710 including the turbocharger from a P-38.


Getting that model of GE turbo-supercharger to fit on a small single-engine airframe,
especially something as small as the Spitfire is very difficult and kinda pointless unless
you're trying to produce some kind of super high-altitude recce or 'stratosphere bomber'
interceptor.
The problems with the XP-37/YP-37 installation demonstrated some of the issues. The
turbo installation on the XP-39 was crap-tastic and among the reasons it was dropped,
the turbo was mounted beneath the engine and both the exhaust to drive the turbo and
the pressurized air to the intercoolers and then carb each had to make two 90º turns, which
reduced the efficiency of the turbocharger. This drawing of the Model 3, the P-39's predecessor,
shows the issues.



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Offline apophenia

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #191 on: May 03, 2020, 10:22:24 AM »
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #192 on: May 04, 2020, 02:30:06 AM »
Getting that model of GE turbo-supercharger to fit on a small single-engine airframe,
especially something as small as the Spitfire is very difficult and kinda pointless unless
you're trying to produce some kind of super high-altitude recce or 'stratosphere bomber'
interceptor.

that is kind of what I was thinking. 
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All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2020, 03:28:34 AM »
An interesting one:  in 1943 a catapult was fitted and successfully test-launched a Supermarine Spitfire fighter from the Soviet cruiser Molotov:

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #195 on: May 17, 2020, 03:56:25 AM »
Hmmm...random, unrelated thoughts:

If jets hadn't come online, how far might the Spiteful/Seafang have been developed?

Turboprop Spiteful/SeaFang?

Twin-Spiteful/Seafang?

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Offline perttime

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2020, 03:01:59 PM »
^ That is pretty much in the style of https://hushkit.net/
... but perhaps it was not published on his main site?

Offline finsrin

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #197 on: May 17, 2020, 03:14:06 PM »
Fast looking super Spitfire !      Mach 0.8 nice.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #198 on: May 17, 2020, 09:51:28 PM »
Has shades of the Supermarine Type 391 in it --

Offline perttime

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Re: Supermarine Spitfire Family
« Reply #199 on: May 17, 2020, 09:55:55 PM »
Is there any existing turboprop engine that would go on a late model Spitfire without too much complication?

That propeller is obviously a bit extreme, and it would need a canopy, or at least wind screen, from something that isn't a Spitfire winds screen.

... Oh. It is mentioned elsewhere that the TurbospiteS is supposed to have inwards retracting landing gear. (secretprojects or modelflying.co.uk)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 09:58:43 PM by perttime »